Is Jesus our elder brother?

[Finrock]

Butterfly; When you come back...

Here's Paul calling God invisible. We know that Paul saw Jesus Christ, so He wouldn't call Jesus invisible. Paul is talking about how we should give glory to the Universal God, who is often referred to in the scriptures as being "the great spirit", "invisible" , "a voice from heaven" that people keep hearing but that largely remains unseen. Man is not fashioned after the appearance of an invisible personage of spirit, glory, and power. The Son was made to be the image of the Universal God and then man was patterned after the Son.
(Keep in mind that "the Son" is Jehovah, who is also called "God" in the scriptures, so sometimes it says man was created in the image of God- that's referring to the God Jehovah, not the Universal God that we worship).

Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that you believe Jesus Christ(Jehovah) has a body but God, the Eternal Father(Universal God) does not?

If so, I have to point out that this belief that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both have bodies is One doctrine the LDS church is unequivocally clear on and it comes from one of Joseph Smith Jr's accounts of the First Vision (the one in our scriptures) and is a basic tenet of our faith. He said that both God and Jesus Christ have glorified bodies of flesh and bones.


"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;" D&C130:22

Of course butterfly can answer for herself, but I understand her to be saying that the Universal God (the Father) has a body, but that body is very large, greater than we can comprehend or understand. I believe the implication here is that the Universal God is "All in All" (Ephesians 1:23; Ephesians 4:6; 1 Cor. 15:38). The Universal God, the Father, the God of all Gods, has a body. We could say that we are inside of the Universal God's body.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

Irrespective of the quote from LonF, Rewcox, do you know if she believes that God, our heavenly Father has a glorified body of flesh and bones?

[AI2.0]

Butterfly; When you come back...

Here's Paul calling God invisible. We know that Paul saw Jesus Christ, so He wouldn't call Jesus invisible. Paul is talking about how we should give glory to the Universal God, who is often referred to in the scriptures as being "the great spirit", "invisible" , "a voice from heaven" that people keep hearing but that largely remains unseen. Man is not fashioned after the appearance of an invisible personage of spirit, glory, and power. The Son was made to be the image of the Universal God and then man was patterned after the Son.
(Keep in mind that "the Son" is Jehovah, who is also called "God" in the scriptures, so sometimes it says man was created in the image of God- that's referring to the God Jehovah, not the Universal God that we worship).

Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that you believe Jesus Christ(Jehovah) has a body but God, the Eternal Father(Universal God) does not?

If so, I have to point out that this belief that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both have bodies is One doctrine the LDS church is unequivocally clear on and it comes from one of Joseph Smith Jr's accounts of the First Vision (the one in our scriptures) and is a basic tenet of our faith. He said that both God and Jesus Christ have glorified bodies of flesh and bones.


"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;" D&C130:22

Of course butterfly can answer for herself, but I understand her to be saying that the Universal God (the Father) has a body, but that body is very large, greater than we can comprehend or understand. I believe the implication here is that the Universal God is "All in All" (Ephesians 1:23; Ephesians 4:6; 1 Cor. 15:38). The Universal God, the Father, the God of all Gods, has a body. We could say that we are inside of the Universal God's body.

-Finrock

Yes, I got that she thought he had a large body, but I'm asking if she believes that God, the eternal father, has a tangible, glorified body of flesh and bones. Seems like it's a question which can be answered either yes or no.

[rewcox]

Irrespective of the quote from LonF, Rewcox, do you know if she believes that God, our heavenly Father has a glorified body of flesh and bones?

I don't.

[Finrock]

Butterfly; When you come back...

Here's Paul calling God invisible. We know that Paul saw Jesus Christ, so He wouldn't call Jesus invisible. Paul is talking about how we should give glory to the Universal God, who is often referred to in the scriptures as being "the great spirit", "invisible" , "a voice from heaven" that people keep hearing but that largely remains unseen. Man is not fashioned after the appearance of an invisible personage of spirit, glory, and power. The Son was made to be the image of the Universal God and then man was patterned after the Son.
(Keep in mind that "the Son" is Jehovah, who is also called "God" in the scriptures, so sometimes it says man was created in the image of God- that's referring to the God Jehovah, not the Universal God that we worship).

Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that you believe Jesus Christ(Jehovah) has a body but God, the Eternal Father(Universal God) does not?

If so, I have to point out that this belief that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both have bodies is One doctrine the LDS church is unequivocally clear on and it comes from one of Joseph Smith Jr's accounts of the First Vision (the one in our scriptures) and is a basic tenet of our faith. He said that both God and Jesus Christ have glorified bodies of flesh and bones.


"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;" D&C130:22

Of course butterfly can answer for herself, but I understand her to be saying that the Universal God (the Father) has a body, but that body is very large, greater than we can comprehend or understand. I believe the implication here is that the Universal God is "All in All" (Ephesians 1:23; Ephesians 4:6; 1 Cor. 15:38). The Universal God, the Father, the God of all Gods, has a body. We could say that we are inside of the Universal God's body.

-Finrock

Yes, I got that she thought he had a large body, but I'm asking if she believes that God, the eternal father, has a tangible, glorified body of flesh and bones. Seems like it's a question which can be answered either yes or no.

Guess you'll just have to wait for your yes and no answer, but you can make some inferences.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Butterfly; When you come back...

Here's Paul calling God invisible. We know that Paul saw Jesus Christ, so He wouldn't call Jesus invisible. Paul is talking about how we should give glory to the Universal God, who is often referred to in the scriptures as being "the great spirit", "invisible" , "a voice from heaven" that people keep hearing but that largely remains unseen. Man is not fashioned after the appearance of an invisible personage of spirit, glory, and power. The Son was made to be the image of the Universal God and then man was patterned after the Son.
(Keep in mind that "the Son" is Jehovah, who is also called "God" in the scriptures, so sometimes it says man was created in the image of God- that's referring to the God Jehovah, not the Universal God that we worship).

Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that you believe Jesus Christ(Jehovah) has a body but God, the Eternal Father(Universal God) does not?

If so, I have to point out that this belief that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both have bodies is One doctrine the LDS church is unequivocally clear on and it comes from one of Joseph Smith Jr's accounts of the First Vision (the one in our scriptures) and is a basic tenet of our faith. He said that both God and Jesus Christ have glorified bodies of flesh and bones.


"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;" D&C130:22

Yes, I got that she thought he had a large body, but I'm asking if she believes that God, the eternal father, has a tangible, glorified body of flesh and bones. Seems like it's a question which can be answered either yes or no.

I just wanted to point out that your specific question was does she believe that God the Father has a body. It didn't appear like you "got that". The answer to that question is "yes", based on what she has written.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Butterfly; When you come back...

Here's Paul calling God invisible. We know that Paul saw Jesus Christ, so He wouldn't call Jesus invisible. Paul is talking about how we should give glory to the Universal God, who is often referred to in the scriptures as being "the great spirit", "invisible" , "a voice from heaven" that people keep hearing but that largely remains unseen. Man is not fashioned after the appearance of an invisible personage of spirit, glory, and power. The Son was made to be the image of the Universal God and then man was patterned after the Son.
(Keep in mind that "the Son" is Jehovah, who is also called "God" in the scriptures, so sometimes it says man was created in the image of God- that's referring to the God Jehovah, not the Universal God that we worship).

Am I understanding you correctly? Are you saying that you believe Jesus Christ(Jehovah) has a body but God, the Eternal Father(Universal God) does not?

If so, I have to point out that this belief that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both have bodies is One doctrine the LDS church is unequivocally clear on and it comes from one of Joseph Smith Jr's accounts of the First Vision (the one in our scriptures) and is a basic tenet of our faith. He said that both God and Jesus Christ have glorified bodies of flesh and bones.


"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's; the Son also;" D&C130:22

Also, the First Vision was a vision. Also, it doesn't specify that the Father has a body of flesh and bones. Joseph Smith describes in the First Vision accounts that he saw two personages. There was no description of having flesh and bones. That idea is assumed, but not explicit in the First Vision accounts.

-Finrock

[Alaris]

I have been meaning to discuss the "younger brother is the chosen leader" theme that repeats throughout the scriptures. I believe this is further evidence that you don't have to be the eldest soul to be firstborn--rather you are chosen as firstborn for being the first to arrive at that point by progressing from one level to another... learning line upon line...from one small degree to a larger degree .. from exaltation to exaltation until you attain firstborn. So without further ado, here is the list that I pulled from eldenwatson.net -http://eldenwatson.net/1Creation.htm (I'm actually drawing several sources from this article that I found very interesting.)

• Able and Cain

• Shem and Ham (Japeth)

• Abraham and Nahor?

• Isaac and Ishmael

• Jacob and Esau

• Joseph and Reuben

• Ephraim and Manasseh

• Moses and Aaron

• Joseph Smith and Hyrum

• Nephi and Laman

• David - 8th youngest (super cool)

• etc. etc. etc.

1 Nephi 3:29 And it came to pass as they smote us with a rod, behold, an angel of the Lord came and stood before them, and he spake unto them, saying: Why do ye smite your younger brother with a rod? Know ye not that the Lord hath chosen him to be a ruler over you, and this because of your iniquities? Behold ye shall go up to Jerusalem again, and the Lord will deliver Laban into your hands.

So herein lies the concept and it is shown over and over again. Some of the examples above are examples of the younger brother being chosen over an older, wicked brother. However, there are also instances where younger brothers are chosen over older, righteous brothers. Aaron. Hyrum.

There is an eternal principle being taught here repeatedly. I believe the principal is this, "you don't have to be eldest to be firstborn." Again I have to point out that I don't believe Jesus' spirit was created at the beginning of this creation but way before. He certainly may be eldest among the souls in this creation; however, we all begin on equal footing. This is why the primary understanding of firstborn makes zero sense:

Alma 13:3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

Agency is how you acquire light - not by being born first. Jesus earned firstborn. There is further evidence that this eternal principle works in the other direction as well--as a primary motivator to angry souls to rebel. I will post an example from Laman and Lemuel's anger fuel and another from the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha

“Our younger brother thinks to rule over us; and we have had much trial because of him; wherefore, now let us slay him, that we may not be afflicted more because of his words. For behold, we will not have him to be our ruler; for it belongs to us, who are the elder brethren, to rule over this people” (2 Nephi 5:3)

And the devil sighed and said. "O Adam, all my enmity and envy and sorrow concern you, since because of you I am expelled and deprived of my glory which I had in the heavens in the midst of angels, and because of you I was cast out onto the earth." Adam answered, "What have I done to you, and what is my blame with you? Since you are neither harmed nor hurt by us, why do you pursue us?"

The devil replied, "Adam, what are you telling me? It is because of you that I have been thrown out of there. When you were created, I was cast out from the presence of God and was sent out from the fellowship of the angels. When God blew into you the breath of life and your countenance and likeness were made in the image of God, Michael brought you and made (us) worship [sustain] you in the sight of God, and the LORD God said, 'Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.'

And Michael went out and called all the angels, saying, 'Worship [sustain] the image of the LORD God, as the LORD God has instructed.' And Michael himself worshiped [sustained] first, and called me and said, "Worship [sustain] the image of God, Yahweh.' And I answered, 'I do not worship [sustain] Adam.' And when Michael kept forcing me to worship [sustain], I said to him, 'Why do you compel me? I will not worship [sustain] one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to worship [sustain] me.'

When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to worship [sustain] him. And Michael asserted, 'Worship [sustain] the image of God. But if now you will not worship [sustain], the LORD God will be wrathful with you.' And I said, 'If he be wrathful with me, I will set my throne above the stars of heaven and will be like the Most High.'

And the LORD God was angry with me and sent me with my angels out from our glory; and because of you, we were expelled into this world from our dwellings and have been cast onto the earth. And immediately we were made to grieve, since we had been deprived of so great glory. And we were pained to see you in such bliss of delights. So with deceit I assailed your wife and made you to be expelled through her from the joys of your bliss, as I have been expelled from my glory." James H. Charlesworth, The Old testament Pseudepigrapha 2:262 (emphasis in original, words in brackets added) I also pulled this from eldenwatson.net - http://eldenwatson.net/1Creation.htm

Take it with a grain of salt because I can't find another reference to the above verses from "The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha."

However, if Lucifer was a son of the morning - an angel in authority - it is quite possible that Michael or Jehovah were younger souls and Lucifer rebelled because he was angry at not being chosen.

When the Father appointed Jesus Christ the first born to come and redeem the earth, there was contention got up. The second brother, Lucifer, the Son of the Morning, he wanted the honor to come and redeem the earth. But Christ was the appointed one. It was his right by appointment and birthright. ~Wilford Woodruff Journals 4:45-46 (spelling corrected). Also from eldenwatson.net - http://eldenwatson.net/1Creation.htm

The BY quote above is super interesting. There is evidence that Lucifer and Satan are separate beings (there are threads on this,) so I personally have felt that they are and that Lucifer represents the creation-level rebellion and Satan / Devil / Dragon represents the Earth-level creation of the rebellious souls bound to just our world. Whether or not they are the same being is immaterial, as this could be an important eternal principle. That beings who are progressing more slowly than others are motivated by "seniority" to rebel when younger spirits are chosen in place of them. If these truths apply to all beings, they certainly apply to Jehovah.

“Knowledge does away with darkness, suspense and doubt; for these cannot exist where knowledge is. … In knowledge there is power. God has more power than all other beings, because He has greater knowledge; and hence He knows how to subject all other beings to Him. He has power over all.”~ Joseph Smith History of the Church, 5:340

“… A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge”~ Joseph Smith History of the Church, 4:588

This includes exalted men such as Elohim and their sons such as Jehovah.

D&C 93:30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence."

Jehovah was created as an independent agent. He followed the same plan of salvation to attain His light and knowledge that we must follow. There isn't some other special plan for sons. There isn't a way to circumvent being a Son before you can be a Father as much as many of you don't want to have to descend below all before inheriting all--that certainly sounds uncomfortable. But why would the Elohim trust you to join their ranks unless you proved to them and to yourself first that you can live a perfect life and descend below a creation to fully understand the majesty of the power you inherit?

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

This is the 8th use of the word "Overcometh" from the book fo revelation and final step. I will create another post on these 8 verses in Revelation eventually, but they basically outline each step to become a God. The final step is to join a Son as he becomes a Father of a new creation and become His Son or Savior of the new creation. Jesus: "I will be his God, and he shall be my son" This is why we must "spiritually" become begotten sons and daughters to Christ--because then we can join Him in His new creation as elevated souls. Some of us will be Adams and Eves. Some of us won't be chosen and will be angry ... and may even fall when a younger soul is chosen in our place.

[freedomforall]

Abr. 4:27 (26–31)
26 And the Gods took counsel among themselves and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness; and we will give them dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them.
28 And the Gods said: We will bless them. And the Gods said: We will cause them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and to have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And the Gods said: Behold, we will give them every herb bearing seed that shall come upon the face of all the earth, and every tree which shall have fruit upon it; yea, the fruit of the tree yielding seed to them we will give it; it shall be for their meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, behold, we will give them life, and also we will give to them every green herb for meat, and all these things shall be thus organized.
31 And the Gods said: We will do everything that we have said, and organize them; and behold, they shall be very obedient. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and they numbered the sixth time.

Genesis 1:26
26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Moses 2:26
26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


So, apparently the Father has a body, right?

[butterfly]

The LoF also states that the Son was made in the express image and likeness of the Father.

Would that not then mean the Jesus looks like His Father and since we are begotten in the image of the Son, we must look like the Father as well?

How do you understand that portion. It right after the part you quoted earlier?

-Finrock

So technically speaking, LoF doesn't say that the Son was made in the express image of the Father. It says that, initially, He was in the bosom of the Father. Then it says that, because the Savior overcame the world, He was then transformed into the express image and likeness of the Father.

"The Son...- he is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, or, the same fulness with the Father;...and having overcome, received a fulness of the glory of the Father - possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit.
The Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same widsom, glory, power and fulness. Filling all in all- the Son being filled with the fulness of the Mind, glory, and power of the Father - possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father - being filled with the fulness of the Mind of the Father, or in other words, the Spirit of the Father.

So the Son is now in the express image of the Father because, as a result of having overcome, He received a fulness of the glory of the Father. We know Jesus didn't received a fulness at first (D&C 93:11-19).
Once Jesus did receive a fulness, He then became Jesus the Christ. To become a Christ is to possess all the fulness of the Father and to be in the express image and likeness of the Father.
LoF explains that to receive a fulness and be in the image of the Father means that you now possess the same mind, wisdom, glory, and power that the Father does. This is also called "the Spirit of the Father."

When Jesus became a Christ, He was transformed into the express image of the Father, meaning they now shared the same mind and spirit. LoF says that this process is the same for us, too.

"All those who keep His commandments shall become joint heirs with Jesus Christ; possessing the same mind, being transformed into the same image of likeness, even the express image of him who fills all in all: being filled with the fulness of his glory.

You're in the image of the Son when you are physically born to earth and take upon flesh. This doesn't mean you look exactly like Jesus does, just that you have a physical body like He does.

You're in the image of the Father when you are spiritually born of God and progress to a celestial state. This is not referring to how your physical body looks, but how your spirit body works - it's just like the Father's, in His express image and likeness, filling all in all.

[freedomforall]

The LoF also states that the Son was made in the express image and likeness of the Father.

Would that not then mean the Jesus looks like His Father and since we are begotten in the image of the Son, we must look like the Father as well?

How do you understand that portion. It right after the part you quoted earlier?

-Finrock

So technically speaking, LoF doesn't say that the Son was made in the express image of the Father. It says that, initially, He was in the bosom of the Father. Then it says that, because the Savior overcame the world, He was then transformed into the express image and likeness of the Father.

"The Son...- he is also the express image and likeness of the personage of the Father, or, the same fulness with the Father;...and having overcome, received a fulness of the glory of the Father - possessing the same mind with the Father, which mind is the Holy Spirit.
The Father and the Son possessing the same mind, the same widsom, glory, power and fulness. Filling all in all- the Son being filled with the fulness of the Mind, glory, and power of the Father - possessing all knowledge and glory, and the same kingdom: sitting at the right hand of power, in the express image and likeness of the Father - being filled with the fulness of the Mind of the Father, or in other words, the Spirit of the Father.

So the Son is now in the express image of the Father because, as a result of having overcome, He received a fulness of the glory of the Father. We know Jesus didn't received a fulness at first (D&C 93:11-19).
Once Jesus did receive a fulness, He then became Jesus the Christ. To become a Christ is to possess all the fulness of the Father and to be in the express image and likeness of the Father.
LoF explains that to receive a fulness and be in the image of the Father means that you now possess the same mind, wisdom, glory, and power that the Father does. This is also called "the Spirit of the Father."

When Jesus became a Christ, He was transformed into the express image of the Father, meaning they now shared the same mind and spirit. LoF says that this process is the same for us, too.

"All those who keep His commandments shall become joint heirs with Jesus Christ; possessing the same mind, being transformed into the same image of likeness, even the express image of him who fills all in all: being filled with the fulness of his glory.

You're in the image of the Son when you are physically born to earth and take upon flesh. This doesn't mean you look exactly like Jesus does, just that you have a physical body like He does.

You're in the image of the Father when you are spiritually born of God and progress to a celestial state. This is not referring to how your physical body looks, but how your spirit body works - it's just like the Father's, in His express image and likeness, filling all in all.

Jesus and Christ are one in the same person from birth. The Father calls him Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father. These two = Father and Son. Likewise, Jehovah/Spirit and Jesus Christ/Flesh = Father and Son also. See: Mosiah 15:1-5

We, if righteous, keeping the commandments and hungering and thirsting after righteousness,and repenting often can become heirs with Christ in the Father's kingdom, rendering us Gods.

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Doctrine and Covenants 84:38
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

[freedomforall]

To the OP, does a stink bug, stink?
Does a firefly, fly?
Does a cow, moo?
Do some people follow after evil?

[butterfly]

Jesus and Christ are one in the same person from birth. The Father calls him Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father. These two = Father and Son. Likewise, Jehovah/Spirit and Jesus Christ/Flesh = Father and Son also. See: Mosiah 15:1-5

We, if righteous, keeping the commandments and hungering and thirsting after righteousness,and repenting often can become heirs with Christ in the Father's kingdom, rendering us Gods.

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Doctrine and Covenants 84:38
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

LOL, you're new avatar is somewhat disturbing :p

I think we agree on most of what you've said here, except that I believe that "Christ" is a title, kind of like saying "King" or "Queen." So, while Jesus was foreordained to complete His mission as Savior in the capacity of a Christ, He still had to descend below all things in this earthly existence and then rise above them all during His mortal estate. He had to show us how to become "christs", too.

If He had been born into mortality with the level of Christ already obtained, then He wouldn't have been descending below all things.


8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
He went from grace to grace, just like we do


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Jesus went through the process of becoming perfect, of becoming a Christ, and we can, too

[freedomforall]

Jesus and Christ are one in the same person from birth. The Father calls him Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father. These two = Father and Son. Likewise, Jehovah/Spirit and Jesus Christ/Flesh = Father and Son also. See: Mosiah 15:1-5

We, if righteous, keeping the commandments and hungering and thirsting after righteousness,and repenting often can become heirs with Christ in the Father's kingdom, rendering us Gods.

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Doctrine and Covenants 84:38
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

LOL, you're new avatar is somewhat disturbing :p

I think we agree on most of what you've said here, except that I believe that "Christ" is a title, kind of like saying "King" or "Queen." So, while Jesus was foreordained to complete His mission as Savior in the capacity of a Christ, He still had to descend below all things in this earthly existence and then rise above them all during His mortal estate. He had to show us how to become "christs", too.

If He had been born into mortality with the level of Christ already obtained, then He wouldn't have been descending below all things.


8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
He went from grace to grace, just like we do


9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Jesus went through the process of becoming perfect, of becoming a Christ, and we can, too

But doesn't the word Christ mean "the Anointed One?" And didn't the Father call him Christ even before coming to earth?

You may be correct, though.

[freedomforall]

LOL, you're new avatar is somewhat disturbing

Father.jpg (16.71 KiB) Viewed 530 times

AND

Son.jpg (16.46 KiB) Viewed 530 times

@-)

[butterfly]

LOL, you're new avatar is somewhat disturbing

Father.jpg

AND

Son.jpg
@-)

Uuggg. Now your avatar doesnt look so bad in comparison

[onefour1]

Here is an interesting verse:

Hebrews 1:6
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

"Firstbegotten" as opposed to "Only Begotten" seems to imply that there may have been others who were second, third, fourth, ... etc., etc. I also find the verse interesting how it is worded, "bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world".

[onefour1]

More verses:

Firstborn — Bible Dictionary
Jesus is the firstborn of the spirit children of our Heavenly Father, the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh, and the first to rise from the dead in the Resurrection, “that in all things he might have the preeminence” (Col. 1:13–18).

Colossians 1:13-18
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.