Will There Be A Call Out?

[Onsdag]

The very same thing can be found here.

-Finrock

Just to clarify, I don't mean the owner and moderators here, but rather you can find the same phenomenon of Mormons who teach and praise tolerance until you speak out against one of their sacred cows, then the fangs, snarls, and growls come out. As long as you believe and act just as the self proclaimed TBMs do you will be fine. As soon as you say any word that isn't total agreement with the Apostles or the Church, watch out! You are now their enemy and fresh meat is back on the menu!

-Finrock

I suppose it's all a matter of perspective, truth, and time. Truth and time have proven Julie to be false. Truth, time, and perspective will also show who the wolves, sheep, and real shepherds are.

Let me ask you a sincere question, to which I hope you would reply: should a shepherd tolerate having wolves amongst their flock of sheep? Or should they drive them out when they are discovered? And what if the wolf is cleverly disguised as one of the sheep? To the wolf the shepherd appears cruel and intolerant - they'll throw stones and shake big scary sticks at them, driving them away and even killing them if possible. To the shepherds it is the wolves who are most dangerous and should not be tolerated, especially the ones who look like sheep.

And so it is here. From my perspective we have: 1) The innocent and helpless sheep, who may be considered as members of the Lord's flock (Church). they come here to these forums, which bear the name of the LDS Church, hoping and expecting to find nourishment, friendship, and protection. 2) The ravenous wolves, who may be considered as apostate members, or even non-members, whose desires are to destroy and consume both sheep and shepherds of this flock (Church) if possible. Sometimes they'll even come in masquerading as one of the sheep, outwardly they appear to be members of the Church, but inwardly they are still ravening wolves seeking their prey. 3) And then we have the shepherds, those who have been called to watch over the flock, feeding them and protecting them from all dangers. These have been called by the Good Shepherd, even Jesus Christ, to care for His flock (the Church) and are represented specifically as leaders of the Church, but also more generally includes anyone holding the priesthood, and may even be extended to other members of the Church who have a care and concern for the flock. Their duty, as previously mentioned, is to care for the flock and warn of any dangers that may be entering in. Sadly, there are some shepherds, as the scriptures make mention (see Ezekiel 34), who care nothing themselves for the flock and in fact use and abuse them for their own desires. This causes all sorts of nasty problems for the sheep as those whom should be protecting them the most are in fact destroying them. I'm sure the wolves take great delight in pointing out this sad and tragic reality, telling the sheep that the shepherds can't be trusted, thereby scattering the sheep and leading them away to even more destruction. Having said all that, should the other shepherds give up feeding and caring for the flock? No! And should the sheep run and leave the safety of the flock because of the actions of some bad shepherds? No! The Lord will deal with these false shepherds, and sheep, in his own due time and way.

Again, it goes back to perspective, truth, and time. In time all truth will be revealed and we will all see who the real wolves, sheep, and shepherds were. In the mean time, based upon our perspectives and the spirit of truth within us, we will call the wolves out as we discover them and attempt to drive them from among us, or, at the very least, point them out so all the other sheep will know of their presence and to avoid them. Is this intolerant? Perhaps, but as an elder of Israel and considering myself as one of the shepherds I make no apologies for it. I hope you can understand and appreciate my perspective.

I'm just pointing out the bias confirmation and the irony.

You didn't answer any of my questions. Here, I'll try again: should a shepherd allow wolves to enter in among their flock to destroy the sheep? Is the shepherd justified in any way for driving away any wolves? Why, or why not? I really would like to hear your answer and views on these things.

I would think that any reasonable and intelligent being would readily admit that a shepherd is justified in protecting his flock against any wolves or other predators. The only ones who might disagree are the wolves. Even then I think if they were honest with themselves they would begrudgingly admit that the shepherd is justified in protecting the sheep against them.

Are you a wolf? Why, or why not?

Of course when you do exactly what you criticize the Julie Rowe folks of doing it is justified because you are defending the flock, and you really know the true truth, you are an elder of Israel, etc. These are all things that you utilize to justify something that you know is not right because you criticized it in your opponents (the Julie Rowe people). When you do unto others as you claim the Julie Rowe folks have done to you, it is okay and not a problem, but when others do the exact same thing for essentially the exact same reasons but because of a different belief, it is not okay.

I can understand and appreciate their perspective. AVOW and it's members are Christopher's 'flock' (I should point out this is from their perspective, and not necessarily that from a gospel perspective). He and the moderators are the 'shepherds' (though oddly they like to refer to themselves as the 'sheepdogs' rather than 'shepherds'). Anyone who threatens their 'flock,' or whatever the 'shepherds' are trying to protect (right or wrong, things such as dreams and visions, call-out beliefs, revenue from potential subscribers or customers of their products, etc.), is considered a 'wolf.' Because I and others saw Julie Rowe (one of the lead members of their 'flock' who had a strong following) as a danger (to the true gospel of Jesus Christ and its members) and were willing to point it out then in their eyes we became 'wolves' threatening their 'flock.' It didn't matter that we had been members of their 'flock' (and in at least one case a 'shepherd') in good standing for a number of years. Nor did it seem to matter that we were using truths and the standards of the gospel of Jesus Christ to reveal a potential threat to the Lord's 'flock.' In Christopher's eyes we apparently became a threat to his 'flock' by stirring up contention and exposing certain members in high standing as a danger to the sheep. And so they took a course of action to silence and drive away the 'wolves' from their 'flock.'

I can see and appreciate their perspective and I don't begrudge them for it. But nor do I agree with them. From my perspective Christopher has shown himself to apparently be more concerned with his 'flock' than the Lord's 'flock.' And that, to me, shows that he is also a danger to the Lord's 'flock.' But regardless, I left them peacefully and not speaking evil of them.

The reason I brought up being an elder of Israel is not for self-aggrandizement or to silence opposition, but rather, to show that I am authorized and justified in being a watchman over the Lord's 'flock.' As is every other elder of Israel. The scriptures set forth in plainness what is expected and required of all holders of the Lord's holy priesthood. We have been called with an holy calling to be 'shepherds' over His 'flock.' Whether you agree with that or not, that is just how it is.

Wouldn't a better way be to treat each person as you would like to be treated?

I have always tried to treat others how I would like to be treated. Moreover, I have always tried (though not always successfully) to treat people as children of God.

If a principle is a principle, it applies to you as much as it applies to your enemy. You can't justify treating a person poorly or unethically just because you perceive them as your enemy.

But, of course, you will feel justified in your actions for the exact reasons you provided in your post to me. Can't you see the irony and the hypocrisy?

Always treat others fairly. Always listen to others. Never dismiss a person. Never misrepresent another. Never accuse, call names, or pass judgment. Always be loving, kind, gentle, and respectful. Never find a justification for the growling, snarling, and biting. Don't turn those who disagree with you in to wolves. Don't assume they are wolves. Always engage with a person with the principles of intellectual honesty, intellectual empathy, and intellectual humility. The Golden Rule (Do unto others as you would want them to do to you) and the Platinum Rule (Do unto others as they would have you do unto them) ought to prevail.

No amount of rationalization can justify us acting in an uncharitable way towards another person, ever.

And yes, this applies just as much to me.

-Finrock

Have I ever treated "a person poorly or unethically" as you suggest? How about Julie Rowe, or even yourself?

Now, having said that, may I ask you how is a shepherd supposed to treat a ravenous wolf seeking to destroy their flock? Should they invite the wolf and his friends over for supper and serve up a tasty dish of roast lamb to make the wolf feel comfortable and welcome? Should they sing sweetly the songs of praise for the wolf and their good deeds?

Let's make this more personal though. How would you treat a known or perceived threat to yourself or your family? Would you try and protect yourself, your wife, and children? Would you raise a warning voice against the evils that you see are seeking their spiritual or physical destruction? Would you be firm and steadfast in the face of grave danger? Or would you embrace them with open arms and compel your family to embrace them too - even if it means their utter destruction? I honestly want to know these things. Do you think it hypocritical, evil, or unethical to drive these things away from your home and family?

I would contend that we are not only justified, but also required to try and protect ourselves and those we have been given a charge over from any and all dangers. When push came to shove God our Father drove Satan and 1/3 of the hosts of heaven out because they were a threat to Him and the rest of His family. Was He being mean-spirited, evil, immoral, or unethical in His treatment of them? What say you?

[mirkwood]

During the millennium we'll win every game :ymdevil:

Like we do every season right now?

[DesertWonderer]

During the millennium we'll win every game :ymdevil:

Like we do every season right now?

I think you are confused as to who WE is :ymhug:

[I'LLMAKEYAFAMOUS]

I have always been open to the callout idea. We have gotten a few things here and there just in case. But the other day I was getting ready for the day and the Lord said to me, "you don't know how it is going to happen", and that took me back a little.

Part of my willingness to grab onto these witnesses' stories is because I want Jesus to come back soooo bad I am willing to believe anything that points to His return as being as soon as possible. I really can't wait anymore. Life is hard. I want Jesus here and I want Him now! Meanwhile, I am trying to at least let Him come to me personally even if He still takes a while before He comes to the whole world.

I think you are not alone. I've said a couple of times that I think that the tent cities promoters/doomsayers have romanticized the perception of end times--and for them, life is hard, it's also boring and mundane--church is boring, life is routine and filled with everyday problems and troubles. They feel that their lives are obscure and they want to be special and do grand things. They feel that in a tent city scenario, they can make their mark on the world and BE somebody--like the hero of an apocalypse movie who starts out a nobody and ends up saving the world. And Yes, they want Jesus to come, but once again, they are not thinking about the fact that others aren't ready and we ought to be praying for them to prepare as well, so that more will be ready to receive him. We do need more time, the world needs more time.

I was attracted to AVOW and the idea of a call-out, and participated on there for 5 years, seeing a variety of people and their opinions, and that is not how I or many felt at all.

Yet, when I read many of the posts on AVOW they read EXACTLY how AI2.0 describes them. Often they refer to those who aren't preparing to live in the mountains as "asleep", and that they (the AVOWITES) are "awake."

There's always talk of those poor folks in their wards who don't have the spirit and can't see what the elect on AVOW see. They complain their Stake President and Bishop isn't taking preparation as seriously as they feel they should.

There's endless speculation that any tragedy, no matter how small, anywhere in the world could be the start of their much anticipated tribulations when they'll finally get to escape to a girls camp and live out the apocalypse in peaceful bliss. They'll finally be proven right and those unenlightened members in their wards who didn't prepare will rue the day they denounced Julie Rowe or the idea of a call out.

[Sarah]

I have always been open to the callout idea. We have gotten a few things here and there just in case. But the other day I was getting ready for the day and the Lord said to me, "you don't know how it is going to happen", and that took me back a little.

Part of my willingness to grab onto these witnesses' stories is because I want Jesus to come back soooo bad I am willing to believe anything that points to His return as being as soon as possible. I really can't wait anymore. Life is hard. I want Jesus here and I want Him now! Meanwhile, I am trying to at least let Him come to me personally even if He still takes a while before He comes to the whole world.

I think you are not alone. I've said a couple of times that I think that the tent cities promoters/doomsayers have romanticized the perception of end times--and for them, life is hard, it's also boring and mundane--church is boring, life is routine and filled with everyday problems and troubles. They feel that their lives are obscure and they want to be special and do grand things. They feel that in a tent city scenario, they can make their mark on the world and BE somebody--like the hero of an apocalypse movie who starts out a nobody and ends up saving the world. And Yes, they want Jesus to come, but once again, they are not thinking about the fact that others aren't ready and we ought to be praying for them to prepare as well, so that more will be ready to receive him. We do need more time, the world needs more time.

I was attracted to AVOW and the idea of a call-out, and participated on there for 5 years, seeing a variety of people and their opinions, and that is not how I or many felt at all.

Yet, when I read many of the posts on AVOW they read EXACTLY how AI2.0 describes them. Often they refer to those who aren't preparing to live in the mountains as "asleep", and that they (the AVOWITES) are "awake."

There's always talk of those poor folks in their wards who don't have the spirit and can't see what the elect on AVOW see. They complain their Stake President and Bishop isn't taking preparation as seriously as they feel they should.

There's endless speculation that any tragedy, no matter how small, anywhere in the world could be the start of their much anticipated tribulations when they'll finally get to escape to a girls camp and live out the apocalypse in peaceful bliss. They'll finally be proven right and those unenlightened members in their wards who didn't prepare will rue the day they denounced Julie Rowe or the idea of a call out.

Sure there are comments like that, and endless speculation, but it was born out of a feeling of facing reality - the reality that the prophecies are really true, and a desire to prepare, and needing motivation to prepare, which took the form of speculating about time-lines. Usually comments about non-believers were made more out of frustration than from a feeling of pride. How can you prepare if your spouse is not on board for example.
Non-believers should not assume there is some kind of elitist feeling involved. I did not see this nor feel this. I did not see a majority claiming that others were spiritually inferior in some way. It would be no different if you were talking to a bunch of women whose husbands were not members of the Church, who liked to get together to talk about the Church. Would some of their non-member husbands feel like their wives felt superior in some way? I'm sure. Would their conversations make the Church untrue? No

[Juliet]

I have always been open to the callout idea. We have gotten a few things here and there just in case. But the other day I was getting ready for the day and the Lord said to me, "you don't know how it is going to happen", and that took me back a little.

Part of my willingness to grab onto these witnesses' stories is because I want Jesus to come back soooo bad I am willing to believe anything that points to His return as being as soon as possible. I really can't wait anymore. Life is hard. I want Jesus here and I want Him now! Meanwhile, I am trying to at least let Him come to me personally even if He still takes a while before He comes to the whole world.

I think you are not alone. I've said a couple of times that I think that the tent cities promoters/doomsayers have romanticized the perception of end times--and for them, life is hard, it's also boring and mundane--church is boring, life is routine and filled with everyday problems and troubles. They feel that their lives are obscure and they want to be special and do grand things. They feel that in a tent city scenario, they can make their mark on the world and BE somebody--like the hero of an apocalypse movie who starts out a nobody and ends up saving the world. And Yes, they want Jesus to come, but once again, they are not thinking about the fact that others aren't ready and we ought to be praying for them to prepare as well, so that more will be ready to receive him. We do need more time, the world needs more time.

I was attracted to AVOW and the idea of a call-out, and participated on there for 5 years, seeing a variety of people and their opinions, and that is not how I or many felt at all.

Yet, when I read many of the posts on AVOW they read EXACTLY how AI2.0 describes them. Often they refer to those who aren't preparing to live in the mountains as "asleep", and that they (the AVOWITES) are "awake."

There's always talk of those poor folks in their wards who don't have the spirit and can't see what the elect on AVOW see. They complain their Stake President and Bishop isn't taking preparation as seriously as they feel they should.

There's endless speculation that any tragedy, no matter how small, anywhere in the world could be the start of their much anticipated tribulations when they'll finally get to escape to a girls camp and live out the apocalypse in peaceful bliss. They'll finally be proven right and those unenlightened members in their wards who didn't prepare will rue the day they denounced Julie Rowe or the idea of a call out.

I think one who believes that they have spiritual gifts will deal with the temptation to become self righteous. I mean, I see that just in our church culture. People think our church members are better than other churches because we have the fullness of the gospel revealed.

Suppose I believe in the callout and happen to be right (which I am not sure is the case), shouldn't I try to nurture others who don't believe before I condemn them?

[brianj]

Your question also doesn't make sense to me. There is a difference between a mass church-wide call out and specific areas facing disasters. I don't think anybody is arguing against specific areas. What I got out of the answer from Elder Holland is that this would not occur on a church-wide level.

That is not what the Julie Rowe and other Prophets of Doom are saying.

That's funny... I read two of Rowe's three books, listened to several radio interviews, listened to her in person, and never once do I recall any reference to every church member worldwide being told to gather. I only recall a nationwide gathering being described.And that wasn't a concern for you? You didn't think that might be a hardship for poor members living in Georgia or Alaska, to believe that they were going to eventually have to find their way to Utah, but only if they had a year's supply of food, tents and transportation to get it there??? You didn't think that would be a big deal? And what of the non-members? They've got no chance, per Julie's view of the future. When you read her books and saw what would be the fate of these people, did it not make you consider for one minute that this was completely out of character for our church? It should have, because that was a big red flag when I read her book.

Since you seem to know Rowe's words so much better than me, please point out where she describes poor church members in locations where they have to save up for years to be able to attend the temple being expected to hop a flight to Salt Lake on a moment's notice.

And there's the problem. Julie didn't even consider the members outside of the US--it would seem they're just screwed in her 'vision'. This is why the whole tent city doctrine is dangerous and damaging. It ignore the plight of the MAJORITY of the membership of the church, in favor of a small group--those who read AVOW and her books; these are the only few who will be 'prepared' to be able to move to tent cities, and apparently, the church will abandon the rest to their horrible fate in the 'tribulations'. What a cynical view of the church and it's leaders.

Julie looks at things from her very small perspective and this is because she was influenced by years of associating, reading, pondering the writings on a Website (AVOW) that has been it's only little echo chamber for these ideas. So, when she did get her opportunity to write, she was writing for a small audience and never considered the ramifications of how this might translate to an entire population. And if you'll notice, she hasn't mentioned tent cities in over a year. Mostly because she thought she'd be in one and it didn't happen.

I do not see the problem and don't understand why you see a problem. Rowe doesn't claim authority equal to or greater than that of President Monson. If she had the visions she claims to have received, why would she have seen things that don't pertain to her and her stewardship over herself and her family?

Joseph Smith appears to have prophesied a second US civil war in the second half of D&C 87. Orson Hyde provided more prophetic details of the coming civil war. Brigham Young prophesied that, although Saints were leaving the Wasatch Front region to spread across the country, the time would come when they would return and be thankful to do so - a prophecy that I believe is related to that second civil war. NONE OF THESE LEADERS provided details on what would happen to Saints in Georgia, India, Vietnam, Argentina, or Nigeria. By your reasoning, we should dismiss last days prophecies from those sustained as prophets because they didn't provide detailed descriptions of the conditions in other countries.

Visions of Glory contained the first account of a vision of the tribulations from a Latter-day Saint that I came across. Though the author provides some brief descriptions of events in other parts of the world, his account focuses on events in the Salt Lake Valley, Cardston, and Zion. When I read that book I wondered, "What about those of us not in Utah?" Rowe's book provided a description of events outside of Utah but within the US at the beginning of the tribulations. Would it surprise me to learn of Saints in Georgia, the Philippines, or the Ivory Coast having visions of what will happen in their region? Not at all. Would I expect that person to receive a detailed vision of what's happening in North America? Not unless travel to North America is in their future. I am only aware of one branch in all of Georgia, and I believe there are less than 200 church members in that country, but there's no reason why they shouldn't be entitled to revelation.

[Onsdag]

I have always been open to the callout idea. We have gotten a few things here and there just in case. But the other day I was getting ready for the day and the Lord said to me, "you don't know how it is going to happen", and that took me back a little.

Part of my willingness to grab onto these witnesses' stories is because I want Jesus to come back soooo bad I am willing to believe anything that points to His return as being as soon as possible. I really can't wait anymore. Life is hard. I want Jesus here and I want Him now! Meanwhile, I am trying to at least let Him come to me personally even if He still takes a while before He comes to the whole world.

I think you are not alone. I've said a couple of times that I think that the tent cities promoters/doomsayers have romanticized the perception of end times--and for them, life is hard, it's also boring and mundane--church is boring, life is routine and filled with everyday problems and troubles. They feel that their lives are obscure and they want to be special and do grand things. They feel that in a tent city scenario, they can make their mark on the world and BE somebody--like the hero of an apocalypse movie who starts out a nobody and ends up saving the world. And Yes, they want Jesus to come, but once again, they are not thinking about the fact that others aren't ready and we ought to be praying for them to prepare as well, so that more will be ready to receive him. We do need more time, the world needs more time.

I was attracted to AVOW and the idea of a call-out, and participated on there for 5 years, seeing a variety of people and their opinions, and that is not how I or many felt at all.

Yet, when I read many of the posts on AVOW they read EXACTLY how AI2.0 describes them. Often they refer to those who aren't preparing to live in the mountains as "asleep", and that they (the AVOWITES) are "awake."

There's always talk of those poor folks in their wards who don't have the spirit and can't see what the elect on AVOW see. They complain their Stake President and Bishop isn't taking preparation as seriously as they feel they should.

There's endless speculation that any tragedy, no matter how small, anywhere in the world could be the start of their much anticipated tribulations when they'll finally get to escape to a girls camp and live out the apocalypse in peaceful bliss. They'll finally be proven right and those unenlightened members in their wards who didn't prepare will rue the day they denounced Julie Rowe or the idea of a call out.

Having been an active participant on AVOW for a number of years I have seen both sides. Heck, I've been on both sides myself.

I still vividly remember the time I attended a CES devotional back in 2012 with Elder Holland as the guest speaker. The moment he began speaking I was rivited. He started out talking about all the times throughout history where the Lord has called His people out to places of safety. I was thrilled, exhilarated - I just 'knew' he was about to start talking about a latter-day call-out. All of us on AVOW were about to be vindicated! I was witnessing a prophetic moment and just 'knew' an Apostle of Jesus Christ was sharing a message that He wanted us to have at this very moment in history. Even though I was watching the live broadcast on a screen at my stake center I felt like Elder Holland was looking directly at me, with a smile on his face and a twinkle in his eyes. I was literally on the edge of my seat, giddy with anticipation for what he was about to tell me - to tell all the saints, really - in this most historic talk! Words cannot describe what I felt at that moment!

Elder Holland continued on, each new example of a "call-out" (he never used that term, but it was what he was describing) was leading to our present day. His next words were:

"Zion. The promised land. The New Jerusalem. For more than 4,000 years of covenantal history, this has been the pattern: Flee and seek. Run and settle. Escape Babylon. Build Zion’s protective walls..."

I waited with baited breath for what was about to be said. I'm certain the cheesiest grin adorned my face in that instance.

"...Until this, our day."

Boom!!! Wait. What?!?!!?

I had just been blindsided and hit by a truck. I was dumbfounded and my mouth stood agape as he continued:

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. This dispensation is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran in order to leave Canaan in order to leave Jerusalem in order to leave England in order to leave Kirtland in order to leave Nauvoo in order to go who knows where.

No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.”

Of course, that statement became a statement for members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in our dispensation, we have become mature enough to stop running. We have become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently.

As Elder Holland spoke the spirit gently settled on me and whispered to me, confirming to me what I just 'knew' and felt earlier, namely that his message was addressing the "call-out" and that this was the message that the Lord wanted us - wanted me - to hear at this time. It just turned out that it wasn't quite the same message as I had been expecting from the beginning. Quite the opposite, in fact. God sure has a wonderfully delightful sense of humor. =))

Since this talk my views of the call-out have shifted quite dramatically. The OP's post doesn't surprise me in the least and pretty much matches my own experience with Elder Holland from years before.

[Onsdag]

Your question also doesn't make sense to me. There is a difference between a mass church-wide call out and specific areas facing disasters. I don't think anybody is arguing against specific areas. What I got out of the answer from Elder Holland is that this would not occur on a church-wide level.

That is not what the Julie Rowe and other Prophets of Doom are saying.

That's funny... I read two of Rowe's three books, listened to several radio interviews, listened to her in person, and never once do I recall any reference to every church member worldwide being told to gather. I only recall a nationwide gathering being described.And that wasn't a concern for you? You didn't think that might be a hardship for poor members living in Georgia or Alaska, to believe that they were going to eventually have to find their way to Utah, but only if they had a year's supply of food, tents and transportation to get it there??? You didn't think that would be a big deal? And what of the non-members? They've got no chance, per Julie's view of the future. When you read her books and saw what would be the fate of these people, did it not make you consider for one minute that this was completely out of character for our church? It should have, because that was a big red flag when I read her book.

Since you seem to know Rowe's words so much better than me, please point out where she describes poor church members in locations where they have to save up for years to be able to attend the temple being expected to hop a flight to Salt Lake on a moment's notice.

And there's the problem. Julie didn't even consider the members outside of the US--it would seem they're just screwed in her 'vision'. This is why the whole tent city doctrine is dangerous and damaging. It ignore the plight of the MAJORITY of the membership of the church, in favor of a small group--those who read AVOW and her books; these are the only few who will be 'prepared' to be able to move to tent cities, and apparently, the church will abandon the rest to their horrible fate in the 'tribulations'. What a cynical view of the church and it's leaders.

Julie looks at things from her very small perspective and this is because she was influenced by years of associating, reading, pondering the writings on a Website (AVOW) that has been it's only little echo chamber for these ideas. So, when she did get her opportunity to write, she was writing for a small audience and never considered the ramifications of how this might translate to an entire population. And if you'll notice, she hasn't mentioned tent cities in over a year. Mostly because she thought she'd be in one and it didn't happen.

I do not see the problem and don't understand why you see a problem. Rowe doesn't claim authority equal to or greater than that of President Monson. If she had the visions she claims to have received, why would she have seen things that don't pertain to her and her stewardship over herself and her family?

Actually, she essentially has. She claims to have had a Divine manifestation and experience. She claims to have seen God the Father, Jesus Christ, and even our Heavenly Mother. She claims that her message and mission to share it to the world comes from God. Furthermore, she has declared that those who fight against or hinder her message and mission in any way are in fact working for Satan. She has also enjoined and called upon people to help share and spread her message. She has also claimed that the prophets and apostles know of her work and mission, and has all but declared their support for it. If these things do not constitute the claiming of Divine authority equal to that of a prophet of God then I don't know what is.

[Juliet]

I think you are not alone. I've said a couple of times that I think that the tent cities promoters/doomsayers have romanticized the perception of end times--and for them, life is hard, it's also boring and mundane--church is boring, life is routine and filled with everyday problems and troubles. They feel that their lives are obscure and they want to be special and do grand things. They feel that in a tent city scenario, they can make their mark on the world and BE somebody--like the hero of an apocalypse movie who starts out a nobody and ends up saving the world. And Yes, they want Jesus to come, but once again, they are not thinking about the fact that others aren't ready and we ought to be praying for them to prepare as well, so that more will be ready to receive him. We do need more time, the world needs more time.

I was attracted to AVOW and the idea of a call-out, and participated on there for 5 years, seeing a variety of people and their opinions, and that is not how I or many felt at all.

Yet, when I read many of the posts on AVOW they read EXACTLY how AI2.0 describes them. Often they refer to those who aren't preparing to live in the mountains as "asleep", and that they (the AVOWITES) are "awake."

There's always talk of those poor folks in their wards who don't have the spirit and can't see what the elect on AVOW see. They complain their Stake President and Bishop isn't taking preparation as seriously as they feel they should.

There's endless speculation that any tragedy, no matter how small, anywhere in the world could be the start of their much anticipated tribulations when they'll finally get to escape to a girls camp and live out the apocalypse in peaceful bliss. They'll finally be proven right and those unenlightened members in their wards who didn't prepare will rue the day they denounced Julie Rowe or the idea of a call out.

Having been an active participant on AVOW for a number of years I have seen both sides. Heck, I've been on both sides myself.

I still vividly remember the time I attended a CES devotional back in 2012 with Elder Holland as the guest speaker. The moment he began speaking I was rivited. He started out talking about all the times throughout history where the Lord has called His people out to places of safety. I was thrilled, exhilarated - I just 'knew' he was about to start talking about a latter-day call-out. All of us on AVOW were about to be vindicated! I was witnessing a prophetic moment and just 'knew' an Apostle of Jesus Christ was sharing a message that He wanted us to have at this very moment in history. Even though I was watching the live broadcast on a screen at my stake center I felt like Elder Holland was looking directly at me, with a smile on his face and a twinkle in his eyes. I was literally on the edge of my seat, giddy with anticipation for what he was about to tell me - to tell all the saints, really - in this most historic talk! Words cannot describe what I felt at that moment!

Elder Holland continued on, each new example of a "call-out" (he never used that term, but it was what he was describing) was leading to our present day. His next words were:

"Zion. The promised land. The New Jerusalem. For more than 4,000 years of covenantal history, this has been the pattern: Flee and seek. Run and settle. Escape Babylon. Build Zion’s protective walls..."

I waited with baited breath for what was about to be said. I'm certain the cheesiest grin adorned my face in that instance.

"...Until this, our day."

Boom!!! Wait. What?!?!!?

I had just been blindsided and hit by a truck. I was dumbfounded and my mouth stood agape as he continued:

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. This dispensation is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran in order to leave Canaan in order to leave Jerusalem in order to leave England in order to leave Kirtland in order to leave Nauvoo in order to go who knows where.

No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.”

Of course, that statement became a statement for members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in our dispensation, we have become mature enough to stop running. We have become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently.

As Elder Holland spoke the spirit gently settled on me and whispered to me, confirming to me what I just 'knew' and felt earlier, namely that his message was addressing the "call-out" and that this was the message that the Lord wanted us - wanted me - to hear at this time. It just turned out that it wasn't quite the same message as I had been expecting from the beginning. Quite the opposite, in fact. God sure has a wonderfully delightful sense of humor. =))

Since this talk my views of the call-out have shifted quite dramatically. The OP's post doesn't surprise me in the least and pretty much matches my own experience with Elder Holland from years before.

Thank you for sharing what Elder Holland taught. The thing is, the scriptures tell us that in the last days people from all nations will gather to the New Jerusalem, as a place of refuge. They also teach us not to tell the world in order to protect the news from our enemies. Who is right?

D&C 45:

65 And with one heart and with one mind, gather up your riches that ye may purchase an inheritance which shall hereafter be appointed unto you.

66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;

67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.

68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.

69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.

70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.

71 And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy.

72 And now I say unto you, keep these things from going abroad unto the world until it is expedient in me, that ye may accomplish this work in the eyes of the people, and in the eyes of your enemies, that they may not know your works until ye have accomplished the thing which I have commanded you;

[Onsdag]

I was attracted to AVOW and the idea of a call-out, and participated on there for 5 years, seeing a variety of people and their opinions, and that is not how I or many felt at all.

Yet, when I read many of the posts on AVOW they read EXACTLY how AI2.0 describes them. Often they refer to those who aren't preparing to live in the mountains as "asleep", and that they (the AVOWITES) are "awake."

There's always talk of those poor folks in their wards who don't have the spirit and can't see what the elect on AVOW see. They complain their Stake President and Bishop isn't taking preparation as seriously as they feel they should.

There's endless speculation that any tragedy, no matter how small, anywhere in the world could be the start of their much anticipated tribulations when they'll finally get to escape to a girls camp and live out the apocalypse in peaceful bliss. They'll finally be proven right and those unenlightened members in their wards who didn't prepare will rue the day they denounced Julie Rowe or the idea of a call out.

Having been an active participant on AVOW for a number of years I have seen both sides. Heck, I've been on both sides myself.

I still vividly remember the time I attended a CES devotional back in 2012 with Elder Holland as the guest speaker. The moment he began speaking I was rivited. He started out talking about all the times throughout history where the Lord has called His people out to places of safety. I was thrilled, exhilarated - I just 'knew' he was about to start talking about a latter-day call-out. All of us on AVOW were about to be vindicated! I was witnessing a prophetic moment and just 'knew' an Apostle of Jesus Christ was sharing a message that He wanted us to have at this very moment in history. Even though I was watching the live broadcast on a screen at my stake center I felt like Elder Holland was looking directly at me, with a smile on his face and a twinkle in his eyes. I was literally on the edge of my seat, giddy with anticipation for what he was about to tell me - to tell all the saints, really - in this most historic talk! Words cannot describe what I felt at that moment!

Elder Holland continued on, each new example of a "call-out" (he never used that term, but it was what he was describing) was leading to our present day. His next words were:

"Zion. The promised land. The New Jerusalem. For more than 4,000 years of covenantal history, this has been the pattern: Flee and seek. Run and settle. Escape Babylon. Build Zion’s protective walls..."

I waited with baited breath for what was about to be said. I'm certain the cheesiest grin adorned my face in that instance.

"...Until this, our day."

Boom!!! Wait. What?!?!!?

I had just been blindsided and hit by a truck. I was dumbfounded and my mouth stood agape as he continued:

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. This dispensation is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran in order to leave Canaan in order to leave Jerusalem in order to leave England in order to leave Kirtland in order to leave Nauvoo in order to go who knows where.

No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.”

Of course, that statement became a statement for members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in our dispensation, we have become mature enough to stop running. We have become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently.

As Elder Holland spoke the spirit gently settled on me and whispered to me, confirming to me what I just 'knew' and felt earlier, namely that his message was addressing the "call-out" and that this was the message that the Lord wanted us - wanted me - to hear at this time. It just turned out that it wasn't quite the same message as I had been expecting from the beginning. Quite the opposite, in fact. God sure has a wonderfully delightful sense of humor. =))

Since this talk my views of the call-out have shifted quite dramatically. The OP's post doesn't surprise me in the least and pretty much matches my own experience with Elder Holland from years before.

Thank you for sharing what Elder Holland taught. The thing is, the scriptures tell us that in the last days people from all nations will gather to the New Jerusalem, as a place of refuge. They also teach us not to tell the world in order to protect the news from our enemies. Who is right?

D&C 45:

65 And with one heart and with one mind, gather up your riches that ye may purchase an inheritance which shall hereafter be appointed unto you.

66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;

67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.

68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.

69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.

70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.

71 And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy.

72 And now I say unto you, keep these things from going abroad unto the world until it is expedient in me, that ye may accomplish this work in the eyes of the people, and in the eyes of your enemies, that they may not know your works until ye have accomplished the thing which I have commanded you;

Not you because you're spilling the beans to the whole world! :p

Kidding, of course. ;)

[mirkwood]

During the millennium we'll win every game :ymdevil:

Like we do every season right now?

I think you are confused as to who WE is :ymhug:

No, I'm pretty sure I've got it right. ;)

[brianj]

\I do not see the problem and don't understand why you see a problem. Rowe doesn't claim authority equal to or greater than that of President Monson. If she had the visions she claims to have received, why would she have seen things that don't pertain to her and her stewardship over herself and her family?

Actually, she essentially has. She claims to have had a Divine manifestation and experience. She claims to have seen God the Father, Jesus Christ, and even our Heavenly Mother. She claims that her message and mission to share it to the world comes from God. Furthermore, she has declared that those who fight against or hinder her message and mission in any way are in fact working for Satan. She has also enjoined and called upon people to help share and spread her message. She has also claimed that the prophets and apostles know of her work and mission, and has all but declared their support for it. If these things do not constitute the claiming of Divine authority equal to that of a prophet of God then I don't know what is.

I have to disagree with you here. I have had divine manifestations, which I believe I have a mission to share, that I have attempted to communicate as widely as I can. And I firmly believe that all those who oppose my message are working for Satan, some knowingly but most do so in ignorance. Does that mean that I see myself as equal or superior to President Monson?

[EmmaLee]

I think you are not alone. I've said a couple of times that I think that the tent cities promoters/doomsayers have romanticized the perception of end times--and for them, life is hard, it's also boring and mundane--church is boring, life is routine and filled with everyday problems and troubles. They feel that their lives are obscure and they want to be special and do grand things. They feel that in a tent city scenario, they can make their mark on the world and BE somebody--like the hero of an apocalypse movie who starts out a nobody and ends up saving the world. And Yes, they want Jesus to come, but once again, they are not thinking about the fact that others aren't ready and we ought to be praying for them to prepare as well, so that more will be ready to receive him. We do need more time, the world needs more time.

Yet, when I read many of the posts on AVOW they read EXACTLY how AI2.0 describes them. Often they refer to those who aren't preparing to live in the mountains as "asleep", and that they (the AVOWITES) are "awake."

There's always talk of those poor folks in their wards who don't have the spirit and can't see what the elect on AVOW see. They complain their Stake President and Bishop isn't taking preparation as seriously as they feel they should.

There's endless speculation that any tragedy, no matter how small, anywhere in the world could be the start of their much anticipated tribulations when they'll finally get to escape to a girls camp and live out the apocalypse in peaceful bliss. They'll finally be proven right and those unenlightened members in their wards who didn't prepare will rue the day they denounced Julie Rowe or the idea of a call out.

Being a current member of AVOW (and for the past 11 years), I can say with all sincerity that I'LLMAKEYAFAMOUS' and AI2.0's descriptions above are entirely accurate - and if anything, it's actually worse than they describe.

[Sarah]

I think you are not alone. I've said a couple of times that I think that the tent cities promoters/doomsayers have romanticized the perception of end times--and for them, life is hard, it's also boring and mundane--church is boring, life is routine and filled with everyday problems and troubles. They feel that their lives are obscure and they want to be special and do grand things. They feel that in a tent city scenario, they can make their mark on the world and BE somebody--like the hero of an apocalypse movie who starts out a nobody and ends up saving the world. And Yes, they want Jesus to come, but once again, they are not thinking about the fact that others aren't ready and we ought to be praying for them to prepare as well, so that more will be ready to receive him. We do need more time, the world needs more time.

I was attracted to AVOW and the idea of a call-out, and participated on there for 5 years, seeing a variety of people and their opinions, and that is not how I or many felt at all.

Yet, when I read many of the posts on AVOW they read EXACTLY how AI2.0 describes them. Often they refer to those who aren't preparing to live in the mountains as "asleep", and that they (the AVOWITES) are "awake."

There's always talk of those poor folks in their wards who don't have the spirit and can't see what the elect on AVOW see. They complain their Stake President and Bishop isn't taking preparation as seriously as they feel they should.

There's endless speculation that any tragedy, no matter how small, anywhere in the world could be the start of their much anticipated tribulations when they'll finally get to escape to a girls camp and live out the apocalypse in peaceful bliss. They'll finally be proven right and those unenlightened members in their wards who didn't prepare will rue the day they denounced Julie Rowe or the idea of a call out.

Having been an active participant on AVOW for a number of years I have seen both sides. Heck, I've been on both sides myself.

I still vividly remember the time I attended a CES devotional back in 2012 with Elder Holland as the guest speaker. The moment he began speaking I was rivited. He started out talking about all the times throughout history where the Lord has called His people out to places of safety. I was thrilled, exhilarated - I just 'knew' he was about to start talking about a latter-day call-out. All of us on AVOW were about to be vindicated! I was witnessing a prophetic moment and just 'knew' an Apostle of Jesus Christ was sharing a message that He wanted us to have at this very moment in history. Even though I was watching the live broadcast on a screen at my stake center I felt like Elder Holland was looking directly at me, with a smile on his face and a twinkle in his eyes. I was literally on the edge of my seat, giddy with anticipation for what he was about to tell me - to tell all the saints, really - in this most historic talk! Words cannot describe what I felt at that moment!

Elder Holland continued on, each new example of a "call-out" (he never used that term, but it was what he was describing) was leading to our present day. His next words were:

"Zion. The promised land. The New Jerusalem. For more than 4,000 years of covenantal history, this has been the pattern: Flee and seek. Run and settle. Escape Babylon. Build Zion’s protective walls..."

I waited with baited breath for what was about to be said. I'm certain the cheesiest grin adorned my face in that instance.

"...Until this, our day."

Boom!!! Wait. What?!?!!?

I had just been blindsided and hit by a truck. I was dumbfounded and my mouth stood agape as he continued:

One of the many unique characteristics of our dispensation is the changing nature of how we establish the kingdom of God on earth. This dispensation is a time of mighty, accelerated change. And one thing that has changed is that the Church of God will never again flee. It will never again leave Ur in order to leave Haran in order to leave Canaan in order to leave Jerusalem in order to leave England in order to leave Kirtland in order to leave Nauvoo in order to go who knows where.

No, as Brigham Young said for us all, “We have been kicked out of the frying-pan into the fire, out of the fire into the middle of the floor, and here we are and here we will stay.”

Of course, that statement became a statement for members of the Church all over the world. In these last days, in our dispensation, we have become mature enough to stop running. We have become mature enough to plant our feet and our families and our foundations in every nation, kindred, tongue, and people permanently.

As Elder Holland spoke the spirit gently settled on me and whispered to me, confirming to me what I just 'knew' and felt earlier, namely that his message was addressing the "call-out" and that this was the message that the Lord wanted us - wanted me - to hear at this time. It just turned out that it wasn't quite the same message as I had been expecting from the beginning. Quite the opposite, in fact. God sure has a wonderfully delightful sense of humor. =))

Since this talk my views of the call-out have shifted quite dramatically. The OP's post doesn't surprise me in the least and pretty much matches my own experience with Elder Holland from years before.

I know you are aware of all the quotes describing thousands who will flee to the Rocky Mountains for safety. I have probably 30+ quotes describing how the only safety will be there while the nations are passing through judgements. So my question is, how is a saint from LA, who either flees out of that city or is invited out, any different than a saint in SLC who is either fleeing or invited out for safety?

[Sarah]

I think you are not alone. I've said a couple of times that I think that the tent cities promoters/doomsayers have romanticized the perception of end times--and for them, life is hard, it's also boring and mundane--church is boring, life is routine and filled with everyday problems and troubles. They feel that their lives are obscure and they want to be special and do grand things. They feel that in a tent city scenario, they can make their mark on the world and BE somebody--like the hero of an apocalypse movie who starts out a nobody and ends up saving the world. And Yes, they want Jesus to come, but once again, they are not thinking about the fact that others aren't ready and we ought to be praying for them to prepare as well, so that more will be ready to receive him. We do need more time, the world needs more time.

Yet, when I read many of the posts on AVOW they read EXACTLY how AI2.0 describes them. Often they refer to those who aren't preparing to live in the mountains as "asleep", and that they (the AVOWITES) are "awake."

There's always talk of those poor folks in their wards who don't have the spirit and can't see what the elect on AVOW see. They complain their Stake President and Bishop isn't taking preparation as seriously as they feel they should.

There's endless speculation that any tragedy, no matter how small, anywhere in the world could be the start of their much anticipated tribulations when they'll finally get to escape to a girls camp and live out the apocalypse in peaceful bliss. They'll finally be proven right and those unenlightened members in their wards who didn't prepare will rue the day they denounced Julie Rowe or the idea of a call out.

Being a current member of AVOW (and for the past 11 years), I can say with all sincerity that I'LLMAKEYAFAMOUS' and AI2.0's descriptions above are entirely accurate - and if anything, it's actually worse than they describe.

Why do you stay on there?

[DesertWonderer]

During the millennium we'll win every game :ymdevil:

Like we do every season right now?

I think you are confused as to who WE is :ymhug:

No, I'm pretty sure I've got it right. ;)

No, not hardly. ;)

[DesertWonderer]

\I do not see the problem and don't understand why you see a problem. Rowe doesn't claim authority equal to or greater than that of President Monson. If she had the visions she claims to have received, why would she have seen things that don't pertain to her and her stewardship over herself and her family?

Actually, she essentially has. She claims to have had a Divine manifestation and experience. She claims to have seen God the Father, Jesus Christ, and even our Heavenly Mother. She claims that her message and mission to share it to the world comes from God. Furthermore, she has declared that those who fight against or hinder her message and mission in any way are in fact working for Satan. She has also enjoined and called upon people to help share and spread her message. She has also claimed that the prophets and apostles know of her work and mission, and has all but declared their support for it. If these things do not constitute the claiming of Divine authority equal to that of a prophet of God then I don't know what is.

I have to disagree with you here. I have had divine manifestations, which I believe I have a mission to share, that I have attempted to communicate as widely as I can. And I firmly believe that all those who oppose my message are working for Satan, some knowingly but most do so in ignorance. Does that mean that I see myself as equal or superior to President Monson?

In addition to what Onsdag said, she on live radio said it was her "mission" to share this message with the world and Pres Monson's mission was to the LDS people. At her live event in St George, she told all of the people there that they "raised their arm to the square" in the pre-existence accepting her calling here and now.

[mirkwood]

Being a current member of AVOW (and for the past 11 years), I can say with all sincerity that I'LLMAKEYAFAMOUS' and AI2.0's descriptions above are entirely accurate - and if anything, it's actually worse than they describe.

As a banned member of AVOW, for vocally opposing many their ideas and dogmas, I will second this post.

[mirkwood]

So my question is, how is a saint from LA, who either flees out of that city or is invited out, any different than a saint in SLC who is either fleeing or invited out for safety?

Could it be that brianj will flee from California (I believe he will some day unless he moves) to the Rocky Mountains for safety and end up in the home of mirkwood?

My question is, do you not see that possibility?

My promptings and revelations tell me that is the scenario.

[Sarah]

So my question is, how is a saint from LA, who either flees out of that city or is invited out, any different than a saint in SLC who is either fleeing or invited out for safety?

Could it be that brianj will flee from California (I believe he will some day unless he moves) to the Rocky Mountains for safety and end up in the home of mirkwood?

My question is, do you not see that possibility?

My promptings and revelations tell me that is the scenario.

I'm sure at some point the saints in LA would have to flee or else they each would need a really strong bubble around their individual houses.

But according to Elder Holland, the Church will never have to flee - right? And they are part of the Church - the Church is everywhere.

What attracted you to joining AVOW? I can't see why anyone would want to hang out there if he or she did not believe in some kind of call-out scenario.

[DesertWonderer]

So my question is, how is a saint from LA, who either flees out of that city or is invited out, any different than a saint in SLC who is either fleeing or invited out for safety?

Could it be that brianj will flee from California (I believe he will some day unless he moves) to the Rocky Mountains for safety and end up in the home of mirkwood?

My question is, do you not see that possibility?

My promptings and revelations tell me that is the scenario.

I'm sure at some point the saints in LA would have to flee or else they each would need a really strong bubble around their individual houses.

But according to Elder Holland, the Church will never have to flee - right? And they are part of the Church - the Church is everywhere.

What attracted you to joining AVOW? I can't see why anyone would want to hang out there if he or she did not believe in some kind of call-out scenario.

The saints in LA will stay right where they are...because Christ himself said so:

“Verily I say unto you all: Arise and shine forth, that thy light may be a standard for the nations;

“And that the gathering together upon the land of Zion, and upon her stakes, may be for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth.” (D&C 115:5–6.)

[Onsdag]

So my question is, how is a saint from LA, who either flees out of that city or is invited out, any different than a saint in SLC who is either fleeing or invited out for safety?

Could it be that brianj will flee from California (I believe he will some day unless he moves) to the Rocky Mountains for safety and end up in the home of mirkwood?

My question is, do you not see that possibility?

My promptings and revelations tell me that is the scenario.

I'm sure at some point the saints in LA would have to flee or else they each would need a really strong bubble around their individual houses.

But according to Elder Holland, the Church will never have to flee - right? And they are part of the Church - the Church is everywhere.

What attracted you to joining AVOW? I can't see why anyone would want to hang out there if he or she did not believe in some kind of call-out scenario.

From their website:

AVOW is an online LDS community of preparedness-minded people
AVOW is more than a simple forum for preparedness, it's a whole community dedicated to preparedness and spiritual insights. You'll find a wide variety of topics being discussed, including camping, home canning, financial preparedness, words of our living prophet, spiritual insights, and much, much more. You'll also find a live chat-room, a variety of private and semi-private special interest-groups, member photo albums, group-buys, and a download section with hundreds of great resources to help in your preparations.
Helping the Saints Prepare
No one knows when the second coming of Jesus Christ will be.

And it really doesn't matter anyway...It is our humble opinion that unless we prepare for those events that precede the Savior's coming, we will needlessly suffer greatly and subsequently perish...thus, we won't be around to greet Him anyway. We have been commanded many times to look for the signs of His coming and to prepare as we have been counseled again and again and again.

Personal study has lead many to believe that there is a sequence of these events that lead up to the Second Coming of the Savior, outlined in the scriptures. This forum is in part to present the information concerning this sequence of events so that people can consider the evidence for themselves and make their own decisions.

Our belief is that the Second Coming of the Savior is much closer than most people realize and that we are on the verge of radical changes in our society. Our ultimate goal is to add our voice to the sounding chorus and to encourage everyone who will listen, to start immediately to prepare for the events that precede (perhaps by many years) the actual 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.

THE GOAL OF THESE FORUMS IS TO HELP THE SAINTS BEGIN TO PREPARE.
Over 1 Million posts from more than 13,000 members

AVOW currently has a staff of 20, contains over 210 topical forums, with over 110,000 unique discussions & threads containing over 1,000,000 separate posts. The AVOW forums cover hundreds of posts per day relating to preparedness. Our members, once registered, tend to participate with excitement as they gain additional insights and discuss gospel topics.

At face value these are some good things. Also, nowhere is it mentioned in this introduction that the call-out is an integral part of their beliefs.

I joined AVOW initially because it was a great source to gather information about preparation, last days events and prophecies, current news and world events, meet together with like minded people who shared similar beliefs, discuss various gospel topics, etc. As I participated it was soon apparent that dreams and visions, and also the concept of a call-out, was an integral part of this community and forum. Even still though, not everyone believed in these things and there were contrary opinions shared.

As for your first question - I don't know that I have an answer. I do believe there will be a future literal gathering of sorts. I just don't believe the call-out version is how it will happen. I have tried to articulate elsewhere on this board what I believe will happen (subject to change at any given time - I am only mortal after all).

[Sarah]

So my question is, how is a saint from LA, who either flees out of that city or is invited out, any different than a saint in SLC who is either fleeing or invited out for safety?

Could it be that brianj will flee from California (I believe he will some day unless he moves) to the Rocky Mountains for safety and end up in the home of mirkwood?

My question is, do you not see that possibility?

My promptings and revelations tell me that is the scenario.

I'm sure at some point the saints in LA would have to flee or else they each would need a really strong bubble around their individual houses.

But according to Elder Holland, the Church will never have to flee - right? And they are part of the Church - the Church is everywhere.

What attracted you to joining AVOW? I can't see why anyone would want to hang out there if he or she did not believe in some kind of call-out scenario.

From their website:

AVOW is an online LDS community of preparedness-minded people
AVOW is more than a simple forum for preparedness, it's a whole community dedicated to preparedness and spiritual insights. You'll find a wide variety of topics being discussed, including camping, home canning, financial preparedness, words of our living prophet, spiritual insights, and much, much more. You'll also find a live chat-room, a variety of private and semi-private special interest-groups, member photo albums, group-buys, and a download section with hundreds of great resources to help in your preparations.
Helping the Saints Prepare
No one knows when the second coming of Jesus Christ will be.

And it really doesn't matter anyway...It is our humble opinion that unless we prepare for those events that precede the Savior's coming, we will needlessly suffer greatly and subsequently perish...thus, we won't be around to greet Him anyway. We have been commanded many times to look for the signs of His coming and to prepare as we have been counseled again and again and again.

Personal study has lead many to believe that there is a sequence of these events that lead up to the Second Coming of the Savior, outlined in the scriptures. This forum is in part to present the information concerning this sequence of events so that people can consider the evidence for themselves and make their own decisions.

Our belief is that the Second Coming of the Savior is much closer than most people realize and that we are on the verge of radical changes in our society. Our ultimate goal is to add our voice to the sounding chorus and to encourage everyone who will listen, to start immediately to prepare for the events that precede (perhaps by many years) the actual 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.

THE GOAL OF THESE FORUMS IS TO HELP THE SAINTS BEGIN TO PREPARE.
Over 1 Million posts from more than 13,000 members

AVOW currently has a staff of 20, contains over 210 topical forums, with over 110,000 unique discussions & threads containing over 1,000,000 separate posts. The AVOW forums cover hundreds of posts per day relating to preparedness. Our members, once registered, tend to participate with excitement as they gain additional insights and discuss gospel topics.

At face value these are some good things. Also, nowhere is it mentioned in this introduction that the call-out is an integral part of their beliefs.

I joined AVOW initially because it was a great source to gather information about preparation, last days events and prophecies, current news and world events, meet together with like minded people who shared similar beliefs, discuss various gospel topics, etc. As I participated it was soon apparent that dreams and visions, and also the concept of a call-out, was an integral part of this community and forum. Even still though, not everyone believed in these things and there were contrary opinions shared.

As for your first question - I don't know that I have an answer. I do believe there will be a future literal gathering of sorts. I just don't believe the call-out version is how it will happen. I have tried to articulate elsewhere on this board what I believe will happen (subject to change at any given time - I am only mortal after all).

No worries, I too could be wrong, I just like to help keep people's minds open to every possibility. I don't know why the saints in SLC should feel any more secure than the saints in LA. Every time I go back there it gets bigger and bigger, and it is not going to be pretty if there is any kind of disruption in the food or energy lines.

And I realize there were some on AVOW who were just on there because they like talking about prepping or last days stuff, I just wanted to ask the question to get a better idea of where some are coming from with their comments about all the elitists on AVOW. It reminded me of Christians who think Latter-Day-Saints are elitist.

[Sarah]

So my question is, how is a saint from LA, who either flees out of that city or is invited out, any different than a saint in SLC who is either fleeing or invited out for safety?

Could it be that brianj will flee from California (I believe he will some day unless he moves) to the Rocky Mountains for safety and end up in the home of mirkwood?

My question is, do you not see that possibility?

My promptings and revelations tell me that is the scenario.

I'm sure at some point the saints in LA would have to flee or else they each would need a really strong bubble around their individual houses.

But according to Elder Holland, the Church will never have to flee - right? And they are part of the Church - the Church is everywhere.

What attracted you to joining AVOW? I can't see why anyone would want to hang out there if he or she did not believe in some kind of call-out scenario.

The saints in LA will stay right where they are...because Christ himself said so:

“Verily I say unto you all: Arise and shine forth, that thy light may be a standard for the nations;

“And that the gathering together upon the land of Zion, and upon her stakes, may be for a defense, and for a refuge from the storm, and from wrath when it shall be poured out without mixture upon the whole earth.” (D&C 115:5–6.)

In regards to the scripture above, where is the land of Zion? Is it Jackson county, all of North and South America, or everywhere there are currently members living? If it is Jackson County, then why are we not gathering together there now? And how can a land of Zion have stakes if it is not even in use? I think that right now, we are gathering to a sort of spiritual Zion. But one day, we will be appointed places of physical Zion. Right now, Babylon is in every corner that "Zion" is.

Ezra Taft Benson -

“The stakes and districts of Zion are symbolic of the holy places spoken of by the Lord where His Saints are to gather in the last days as a refuge from the storm.”