Will There Be A Call Out?

[Finrock]

You can't reason with wolves.

Pay attention to what you just said.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

You can't reason with wolves.

Pay attention to what you just said.

-Finrock

I said exactly what I meant. What are you supposing it means?

[Finrock]

You can't reason with wolves.

Pay attention to what you just said.

-Finrock

I said exactly what I meant. What are you supposing it means?

Good for you!

I agree with your statement. It implies that you can reason with sheep and that is really my whole point.

Wolves don't want to reason and you can't reason with a wolf because they want to attack, teardown, ridicule, accuse, judge, etc.

Sheep aren't in to that sort of thing. They would rather discuss, forebear judgment, reason, persuade, uplift, and speak of the doctrine of Christ.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

You can't reason with wolves.

Pay attention to what you just said.

-Finrock

I said exactly what I meant. What are you supposing it means?

Good for you!

I agree with your statement. It implies that you can reason with sheep and that is really my whole point.

Wolves don't want to reason and you can't reason with a wolf because they want to attack, teardown, ridicule, accuse, judge, etc.

Sheep aren't in to that sort of thing. They would rather discuss, forebear judgment, reason, persuade, uplift, and speak of the doctrine of Christ.

-Finrock

You are on thin ice Finrock. A wolf in sheeps clothing is trying to get sheep to do something that is wrong. A mormon, trying to get believing mormons to do something wrong would be a Wolf in sheeps clothing.

That is what Onsdag was pointing out. There are examples of posters at LDSFF that try this method.

[Finrock]

Pay attention to what you just said.

-Finrock

I said exactly what I meant. What are you supposing it means?

Good for you!

I agree with your statement. It implies that you can reason with sheep and that is really my whole point.

Wolves don't want to reason and you can't reason with a wolf because they want to attack, teardown, ridicule, accuse, judge, etc.

Sheep aren't in to that sort of thing. They would rather discuss, forebear judgment, reason, persuade, uplift, and speak of the doctrine of Christ.

-Finrock

You are on thin ice Finrock. A wolf in sheeps clothing is trying to get sheep to do something that is wrong. A mormon, trying to get believing mormons to do something wrong would be a Wolf in sheeps clothing.

That is what Onsdag was pointing out. There are examples of posters at LDSFF that try this method.

Actually, you have examples of Mormons who are accusing others of all these things, when in reality they don't know. A sheep has no reason to accuse or to judge. They feel safe in the arms of Jesus. A sheep will happily reason even with a wolf. A sheep has no fangs or claws. They don't snarl, bite, or bark. A sheep always reasons, always persuades, always assumes and believes the best of others. Sheep also turn the other cheek. Sheep know that the true shepherd is Jesus Christ and Jesus will keep His sheep safe, so they don't need to use tactics or be fearful, hateful, vengeful, judgmental, accusers, etc. Sheep are content and happy in their faith and can reason and support their beliefs without going after another person.

You can't reason with a wolf.

I think I'm going to make that my first signature ever on this forum.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

I said exactly what I meant. What are you supposing it means?

Good for you!

I agree with your statement. It implies that you can reason with sheep and that is really my whole point.

Wolves don't want to reason and you can't reason with a wolf because they want to attack, teardown, ridicule, accuse, judge, etc.

Sheep aren't in to that sort of thing. They would rather discuss, forebear judgment, reason, persuade, uplift, and speak of the doctrine of Christ.

-Finrock

You are on thin ice Finrock. A wolf in sheeps clothing is trying to get sheep to do something that is wrong. A mormon, trying to get believing mormons to do something wrong would be a Wolf in sheeps clothing.

That is what Onsdag was pointing out. There are examples of posters at LDSFF that try this method.

Actually, you have examples of Mormons who are accusing others of all these things, when in reality they don't know. A sheep has no reason to accuse or to judge. They feel safe in the arms of Jesus. A sheep will happily reason even with a wolf. A sheep has no fangs or claws. They don't snarl, bite, or bark. A sheep always reasons, always persuades, always assumes and believes the best of others. Sheep also turn the other cheek. Sheep know that the true shepherd is Jesus Christ and Jesus will keep His sheep safe, so they don't need to use tactics or be fearful, hateful, vengeful, judgmental, accusers, etc. Sheep are content and happy in their faith and can reason and support their beliefs without going after another person.

You can't reason with a wolf.

I think I'm going to make that my first signature ever on this forum.

-Finrock

You are incorrect in your preaching Finrock. Wolfs are excommunicated. A leader (Bishop, Stake President, GA) will try to get the Wolf to cease and desist, but when they don't, they are excommunicated. That is what happens with wolves.

Many people go anonymous on the internet, because they want to stay a member but still preach false doctrine. At LDSFF, as long as they don't break forum rules they hang around. Sometimes we get their clever philosophies uncovered.

[Finrock]

Good for you!

I agree with your statement. It implies that you can reason with sheep and that is really my whole point.

Wolves don't want to reason and you can't reason with a wolf because they want to attack, teardown, ridicule, accuse, judge, etc.

Sheep aren't in to that sort of thing. They would rather discuss, forebear judgment, reason, persuade, uplift, and speak of the doctrine of Christ.

-Finrock

You are on thin ice Finrock. A wolf in sheeps clothing is trying to get sheep to do something that is wrong. A mormon, trying to get believing mormons to do something wrong would be a Wolf in sheeps clothing.

That is what Onsdag was pointing out. There are examples of posters at LDSFF that try this method.

Actually, you have examples of Mormons who are accusing others of all these things, when in reality they don't know. A sheep has no reason to accuse or to judge. They feel safe in the arms of Jesus. A sheep will happily reason even with a wolf. A sheep has no fangs or claws. They don't snarl, bite, or bark. A sheep always reasons, always persuades, always assumes and believes the best of others. Sheep also turn the other cheek. Sheep know that the true shepherd is Jesus Christ and Jesus will keep His sheep safe, so they don't need to use tactics or be fearful, hateful, vengeful, judgmental, accusers, etc. Sheep are content and happy in their faith and can reason and support their beliefs without going after another person.

You can't reason with a wolf.

I think I'm going to make that my first signature ever on this forum.

-Finrock

You are incorrect in your preaching Finrock. Wolfs are excommunicated. A leader (Bishop, Stake President, GA) will try to get the Wolf to cease and desist, but when they don't, they are excommunicated. That is what happens with wolves.

Many people go anonymous on the internet, because they want to stay a member but still preach false doctrine. At LDSFF, as long as they don't break forum rules they hang around. Sometimes we get their clever philosophies uncovered.

Glad I'm sheep.

But, you know Sheep get excommunicated as well. Sometimes sheep get excommunicated by the wolves. You can tell the sheep from the wolves by their disposition and their dedication to the principles of goodness, fairness, reason, love, kindness, and their loyalty to the Shepherd who is Truth. Wolves hate the Truth and will do whatever they can to destroy a Sheep of the Good Shepherd. The Truth causes the wolf to feel fear, anger, annoyance, and upset. Wolves use this fear, vengeance, accusations, judgments, ridicule, mockery, tearing down, and belittling to justify their actions and to trick even some sheep in to thinking good is evil and evil is good. But, the true Sheep know the voice of the True Shepherd, which is love, kindness, fairness, building up, meekness, reason, and truth.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

I know the True Shepherd loves kindness, fairness, goodness, and building others up. I know the True Shepherd does not want His Sheep to accuse, belittle, and to judge others. I know the True Shepherd speaks through the voice of reason. There is no fear in Him. He will never ask His sheep to snarl, bite, howl, and to bark. I know the True Shepherd speaks from a position of justice, mercy, and love. The Good Shepherd doesn't use tactics. The Good Shepherd teaches His sheep to turn the other cheek and to use the Good even when others are using Evil. The Good Shepherd is Jesus Christ, who is Good and all true followers of the Good are dedicated to the Good, to Truth, to Love, to Reason and to exemplifying and making these attributes, the attributes of Christ, their attributes because they have taken upon them the name of Christ, which is the only name which saves. True Sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and that voice sounds nothing like the voice of the wolves.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

I know the True Shepherd loves kindness, fairness, goodness, and building others up. I know the True Shepherd does not want His Sheep to accuse, belittle, and to judge others. I know the True Shepherd speaks through the voice of reason. There is no fear in Him. He will never ask His sheep to snarl, bite, howl, and to bark. I know the True Shepherd speaks from a position of justice, mercy, and love. The Good Shepherd doesn't use tactics. The Good Shepherd teaches His sheep to turn the other cheek and to use the Good even when others are using Evil. The Good Shepherd is Jesus Christ, who is Good and all true followers of the Good are dedicated to the Good, to Truth, to Love, to Reason and to exemplifying and making these attributes, the attributes of Christ, their attributes because they have taken upon them the name of Christ, which is the only name which saves. True Sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and that voice sounds nothing like the voice of the wolves.

-Finrock

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Days Saints is Christ's church, that includes the Prophet and apostles, and the local leaders. The leaders are instructed to take the wolves out of the church. See Mosiah 26 for example.

I'm not sure why you always go on the rant of bad leaders.

[Finrock]

I know the True Shepherd loves kindness, fairness, goodness, and building others up. I know the True Shepherd does not want His Sheep to accuse, belittle, and to judge others. I know the True Shepherd speaks through the voice of reason. There is no fear in Him. He will never ask His sheep to snarl, bite, howl, and to bark. I know the True Shepherd speaks from a position of justice, mercy, and love. The Good Shepherd doesn't use tactics. The Good Shepherd teaches His sheep to turn the other cheek and to use the Good even when others are using Evil. The Good Shepherd is Jesus Christ, who is Good and all true followers of the Good are dedicated to the Good, to Truth, to Love, to Reason and to exemplifying and making these attributes, the attributes of Christ, their attributes because they have taken upon them the name of Christ, which is the only name which saves. True Sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and that voice sounds nothing like the voice of the wolves.

-Finrock

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Days Saints is Christ's church, that includes the Prophet and apostles, and the local leaders. The leaders are instructed to take the wolves out of the church. See Mosiah 26 for example.

I'm not sure why you always go on the rant of bad leaders.

I don't go on rants of bad leaders. Thanks for not mischaracterizing what I do and say in the future!

-Finrock

[DesertWonderer]

Good for you!

I agree with your statement. It implies that you can reason with sheep and that is really my whole point.

Wolves don't want to reason and you can't reason with a wolf because they want to attack, teardown, ridicule, accuse, judge, etc.

Sheep aren't in to that sort of thing. They would rather discuss, forebear judgment, reason, persuade, uplift, and speak of the doctrine of Christ.

-Finrock

You are on thin ice Finrock. A wolf in sheeps clothing is trying to get sheep to do something that is wrong. A mormon, trying to get believing mormons to do something wrong would be a Wolf in sheeps clothing.

That is what Onsdag was pointing out. There are examples of posters at LDSFF that try this method.

Actually, you have examples of Mormons who are accusing others of all these things, when in reality they don't know. A sheep has no reason to accuse or to judge. They feel safe in the arms of Jesus. A sheep will happily reason even with a wolf. A sheep has no fangs or claws. They don't snarl, bite, or bark. A sheep always reasons, always persuades, always assumes and believes the best of others. Sheep also turn the other cheek. Sheep know that the true shepherd is Jesus Christ and Jesus will keep His sheep safe, so they don't need to use tactics or be fearful, hateful, vengeful, judgmental, accusers, etc. Sheep are content and happy in their faith and can reason and support their beliefs without going after another person.

You can't reason with a wolf.

I think I'm going to make that my first signature ever on this forum.

-Finrock

You are incorrect in your preaching Finrock. Wolfs are excommunicated. A leader (Bishop, Stake President, GA) will try to get the Wolf to cease and desist, but when they don't, they are excommunicated. That is what happens with wolves.

Many people go anonymous on the internet, because they want to stay a member but still preach false doctrine. At LDSFF, as long as they don't break forum rules they hang around. Sometimes we get their clever philosophies uncovered.

He's not that clever.

[Finrock]

What I see is an attempt to justify unethical behavior by accusing/calling a person a wolf. It's an easy excuse and an easy way to not have to deal with uncomfortable content by saying that the person who is sharing the information is a wolf/monster/evil/bad. But, we are talking about a discussion forum presumably with adults of cogent minds and average to above average IQ. There is no physical attacks or threats to a person going on here. There is no evidence of coercion or any such thing. If a person on this forum is using argumentation to get a point across or to share a message and you think it is in error, then show through logic, reason, and through persuasion that they are incorrect. Rather than treat a person who may be sincere, as a wolf, expose the error in their reasoning and in their argument by attacking the premises of their arguments. If they are in error, deceptive, lying, or an actual "wolf" you will prove it by exposing the error in their argument but never by simply accusing them of being a wolf. If they are sincere but wrong, by reasonably exposing the falsity in their message you may be able to assist them see the error of their ways or if they are on an errand of the adversary, then you will expose that as well. If, however, they make a point that is reasonable, based in fact, or if their premises support their conclusions, then you need to be ready to reevaluate what you believe is true or right. This is called intellectual humility. It is the recognition that humans have the tendency to be ego- and/or socio-centric and our minds have a tendency to believe we "know" more than we actually do. By having intellectual humility we will admit when we are wrong and give credit for well reasoned arguments even if they are against what we might currently believe or think we know to be true and/or right.

What I see are people who are loyal to their social group (LDS Church in this case) as opposed to being loyal to absolute truth. I see people who don't want to actually have a discussion and deal with the content because either a) they cannot because logic/reason/persuasion/truth doesn't support them b) they themselves are being dishonest c) they don't know how d) pride e) or some other reason and so instead they are content with using a very carnal, natural, and age old tactic of argumentum ad hominem, which is logically fallacious and is a sign of weakness in one's beliefs and/or faith, and which doesn't prove anything or even address what their opponent is saying or arguing.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

I know the True Shepherd loves kindness, fairness, goodness, and building others up. I know the True Shepherd does not want His Sheep to accuse, belittle, and to judge others. I know the True Shepherd speaks through the voice of reason. There is no fear in Him. He will never ask His sheep to snarl, bite, howl, and to bark. I know the True Shepherd speaks from a position of justice, mercy, and love. The Good Shepherd doesn't use tactics. The Good Shepherd teaches His sheep to turn the other cheek and to use the Good even when others are using Evil. The Good Shepherd is Jesus Christ, who is Good and all true followers of the Good are dedicated to the Good, to Truth, to Love, to Reason and to exemplifying and making these attributes, the attributes of Christ, their attributes because they have taken upon them the name of Christ, which is the only name which saves. True Sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and that voice sounds nothing like the voice of the wolves.

-Finrock

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Days Saints is Christ's church, that includes the Prophet and apostles, and the local leaders. The leaders are instructed to take the wolves out of the church. See Mosiah 26 for example.

I'm not sure why you always go on the rant of bad leaders.

I don't go on rants of bad leaders. Thanks for not mischaracterizing what I do and say in the future!

-Finrock

Dude, you do rant on leaders:
"But, you know Sheep get excommunicated as well. Sometimes sheep get excommunicated by the wolves."

[rewcox]

What I see is an attempt to justify unethical behavior by accusing/calling a person a wolf. It's an easy excuse and an easy way to not have to deal with uncomfortable content by saying that the person who is sharing the information is a wolf/monster/evil/bad. But, we are talking about a discussion forum presumably with adults of cogent minds and average to above average IQ. There is no physical attacks or threats to a person going on here. There is no evidence of coercion or any such thing. If a person on this forum is using argumentation to get a point across or to share a message and you think it is in error, then show through logic, reason, and through persuasion that they are incorrect. Rather than treat a person who may be sincere, as a wolf, expose the error in their reasoning and in their argument by attacking the premises of their arguments. If they are in error, deceptive, lying, or an actual "wolf" you will prove it by exposing the error in their argument but never by simply accusing them of being a wolf. If they are sincere but wrong, by reasonably exposing the falsity in their message you may be able to assist them see the error of their ways or if they are on an errand of the adversary, then you will expose that as well. If, however, they make a point that is reasonable, based in fact, or if their premises support their conclusions, then you need to be ready to reevaluate what you believe is true or right. This is called intellectual humility. It is the recognition that humans have the tendency to be ego- and/or socio-centric and our minds have a tendency to believe we "know" more than we actually do. By having intellectual humility we will admit when we are wrong and give credit for well reasoned arguments even if they are against what we might currently believe or think we know to be true and/or right.

What I see are people who are loyal to their social group (LDS Church in this case) as opposed to being loyal to absolute truth. I see people who don't want to actually have a discussion and deal with the content because either a) they cannot because logic/reason/persuasion/truth doesn't support them b) they themselves are being dishonest c) they don't know how d) pride e) or some other reason and so instead they are content with using a very carnal, natural, and age old tactic of argumentum ad hominem, which is logically fallacious and is a sign of weakness in one's beliefs and/or faith, and which doesn't prove anything or even address what their opponent is saying or arguing.

-Finrock

You were involved in that conversation between George and the Amonhies. One of the Amonhies told George that Christ would say he didn't know him, and that George would go to the Telestial Kingdom.

Completely wrong and false. As in false prophets. These are the folks who claim C&E, multiple visits with Christ, etc.

You think you know the truth, but you don't. You are missing it completely.

[Finrock]

I know the True Shepherd loves kindness, fairness, goodness, and building others up. I know the True Shepherd does not want His Sheep to accuse, belittle, and to judge others. I know the True Shepherd speaks through the voice of reason. There is no fear in Him. He will never ask His sheep to snarl, bite, howl, and to bark. I know the True Shepherd speaks from a position of justice, mercy, and love. The Good Shepherd doesn't use tactics. The Good Shepherd teaches His sheep to turn the other cheek and to use the Good even when others are using Evil. The Good Shepherd is Jesus Christ, who is Good and all true followers of the Good are dedicated to the Good, to Truth, to Love, to Reason and to exemplifying and making these attributes, the attributes of Christ, their attributes because they have taken upon them the name of Christ, which is the only name which saves. True Sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and that voice sounds nothing like the voice of the wolves.

-Finrock

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Days Saints is Christ's church, that includes the Prophet and apostles, and the local leaders. The leaders are instructed to take the wolves out of the church. See Mosiah 26 for example.

I'm not sure why you always go on the rant of bad leaders.

I don't go on rants of bad leaders. Thanks for not mischaracterizing what I do and say in the future!

-Finrock

Dude, you do rant on leaders:
"But, you know Sheep get excommunicated as well. Sometimes sheep get excommunicated by the wolves."

Look up the definition of a rant. My statement in no way can be called a rant, unless someone is being unkind and trying to belittle what I'm saying because they don't like it. Also, it wasn't against leaders. It was against wolves attacking sheep by calling sheep wolves. It was about people who judge and accuse people wrongfully. It was also a statement of fact. Jesus Christ was a sheep, excommunicated and slaughtered by wolves.

Finally, calling my sincere and well reasoned posts rants is unkind. Please don't be unkind. Thank you, rewcox, for being a sheep and treating me with respect in the future!

A sheep,
-Finrock

[Finrock]

What I see is an attempt to justify unethical behavior by accusing/calling a person a wolf. It's an easy excuse and an easy way to not have to deal with uncomfortable content by saying that the person who is sharing the information is a wolf/monster/evil/bad. But, we are talking about a discussion forum presumably with adults of cogent minds and average to above average IQ. There is no physical attacks or threats to a person going on here. There is no evidence of coercion or any such thing. If a person on this forum is using argumentation to get a point across or to share a message and you think it is in error, then show through logic, reason, and through persuasion that they are incorrect. Rather than treat a person who may be sincere, as a wolf, expose the error in their reasoning and in their argument by attacking the premises of their arguments. If they are in error, deceptive, lying, or an actual "wolf" you will prove it by exposing the error in their argument but never by simply accusing them of being a wolf. If they are sincere but wrong, by reasonably exposing the falsity in their message you may be able to assist them see the error of their ways or if they are on an errand of the adversary, then you will expose that as well. If, however, they make a point that is reasonable, based in fact, or if their premises support their conclusions, then you need to be ready to reevaluate what you believe is true or right. This is called intellectual humility. It is the recognition that humans have the tendency to be ego- and/or socio-centric and our minds have a tendency to believe we "know" more than we actually do. By having intellectual humility we will admit when we are wrong and give credit for well reasoned arguments even if they are against what we might currently believe or think we know to be true and/or right.

What I see are people who are loyal to their social group (LDS Church in this case) as opposed to being loyal to absolute truth. I see people who don't want to actually have a discussion and deal with the content because either a) they cannot because logic/reason/persuasion/truth doesn't support them b) they themselves are being dishonest c) they don't know how d) pride e) or some other reason and so instead they are content with using a very carnal, natural, and age old tactic of argumentum ad hominem, which is logically fallacious and is a sign of weakness in one's beliefs and/or faith, and which doesn't prove anything or even address what their opponent is saying or arguing.

-Finrock

You were involved in that conversation between George and the Amonhies. One of the Amonhies told George that Christ would say he didn't know him, and that George would go to the Telestial Kingdom.

Completely wrong and false. As in false prophets. These are the folks who claim C&E, multiple visits with Christ, etc.

You think you know the truth, but you don't. You are missing it completely.

Thank you for your concern for me, rewcox but I'm a sheep. Also, judging and accusing people is unkind.

As far as what you are talking about, people who aren't sheep of the Good Shepherd are not going to the Celestial Kingdom. I don't know who those people are, but I do know what Celestial behavior is like. It is kind, meek, friendly, uplifting, just, fair, and courageous. In the Celestial Kingdom we will not accuse and judge others. Communicating and interacting in a Celestial way is clear and simple. A child knows exactly what it means to be respectful and kind. Celestial communication does not involve name calling, belittling, or using arguments of irrelevance or other fallacious reasoning tactics. I can judge and know when I'm hearing Celestial communication versus Telestial communication. We judge and reveal ourselves by our dispositions and how we treat others. I am not going to apologize for recognizing universal standards of good thinking, acting, and discussing. What is moral is moral. If I point out a universal truth, one that is recognized by religion and academics alike, and you find yourself outside of that truth, I am not to blame. We each need to take accountability for how we treat and interact with others.

The age old excuse of making yourself a defender of truth does not nor will it ever justify treating people disrespectfully, especially during the course of a discussion and in our communications and interactions with others. Attack the premises of a person's arguments, not the person. When you proceed to attack the person by calling them names, accusing them, or attempting to validate the truth content of their message based on who they associate with, their gender, their religion, their political affiliations, etc., you have stepped outside of the realm of ethical and moral discourse and are engaging in a pattern that is Satanic and carnal in nature. I didn't make the rules up. I'm recognize them and I am pointing them out. Your only ethical and moral recourse at this point, rewcox, is to attack the premises of my arguments. Show me where my logic and reason fails. If you attack me in any way, you are not acting as a sheep. But, you don't even have a point. You are just attacking my character and trying to undermine what I'm saying by calling me names, accusing me, belittling me, and throwing disparaging comments at me.

I would expect a person who is a wolf to attack my character. They would use disparaging language. They would use labels, stereotypes, and other arguments of irrelevance. If you find yourself doing this, please stop. Please treat me and others respectfully. Everything I say is with sincerity and based on facts and truth as I understand it. I can backup all of my claims and welcome any true and reasonable challenge to my words. I look forward to being shown that I am in error because I glory in living in truth. I would highly enjoy having a discussion with individuals who exemplify the characteristics of intellectual integrity, intellectual humility, and intellectual courage.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Days Saints is Christ's church, that includes the Prophet and apostles, and the local leaders. The leaders are instructed to take the wolves out of the church. See Mosiah 26 for example.

I'm not sure why you always go on the rant of bad leaders.

I don't go on rants of bad leaders. Thanks for not mischaracterizing what I do and say in the future!

-Finrock

Dude, you do rant on leaders:
"But, you know Sheep get excommunicated as well. Sometimes sheep get excommunicated by the wolves."

Look up the definition of a rant. My statement in no way can be called a rant, unless someone is being unkind and trying to belittle what I'm saying because they don't like it. Also, it wasn't against leaders. It was against wolves attacking sheep by calling sheep wolves. It was about people who judge and accuse people wrongfully. It was also a statement of fact. Jesus Christ was a sheep, excommunicated and slaughtered by wolves.

Finally, calling my sincere and well reasoned posts rants is unkind. Please don't be unkind. Thank you, rewcox, for being a sheep and treating me with respect in the future!

A sheep,
-Finrock

Christ wasn't excommunicated, He is the Church. Also, your reasoning is lacking. Are you in training to be Amonhies?

[gkearney]

One of the problems with excommunication is that once that lever is pulled in cases like this any influence the church or it members might have had with the person is lost.

In times past this might have worked as the person would likely simply disappear never to be heard from again and that would be the end of it. However in an age of instant, worldwide communication where everyone is, in effect, in possession of a printing press the ability of that person to continue to be troublesome is a fact we can not ignore. The loss of any kind of influence by means of excommunication only serves to amplify rather than mitigate the problem.

[Finrock]

I don't go on rants of bad leaders. Thanks for not mischaracterizing what I do and say in the future!

-Finrock

Dude, you do rant on leaders:
"But, you know Sheep get excommunicated as well. Sometimes sheep get excommunicated by the wolves."

Look up the definition of a rant. My statement in no way can be called a rant, unless someone is being unkind and trying to belittle what I'm saying because they don't like it. Also, it wasn't against leaders. It was against wolves attacking sheep by calling sheep wolves. It was about people who judge and accuse people wrongfully. It was also a statement of fact. Jesus Christ was a sheep, excommunicated and slaughtered by wolves.

Finally, calling my sincere and well reasoned posts rants is unkind. Please don't be unkind. Thank you, rewcox, for being a sheep and treating me with respect in the future!

A sheep,
-Finrock

Christ wasn't excommunicated, He is the Church. Also, your reasoning is lacking. Are you in training to be Amonhies?

Christ was excommunicated and sentenced death by the leaders of the church at that time. It is a biblical fact.

I'm sorry for your pain and loss, rewcox. May God bless you, my friend!

-Finrock

[rewcox]

Dude, you do rant on leaders:
"But, you know Sheep get excommunicated as well. Sometimes sheep get excommunicated by the wolves."

Look up the definition of a rant. My statement in no way can be called a rant, unless someone is being unkind and trying to belittle what I'm saying because they don't like it. Also, it wasn't against leaders. It was against wolves attacking sheep by calling sheep wolves. It was about people who judge and accuse people wrongfully. It was also a statement of fact. Jesus Christ was a sheep, excommunicated and slaughtered by wolves.

Finally, calling my sincere and well reasoned posts rants is unkind. Please don't be unkind. Thank you, rewcox, for being a sheep and treating me with respect in the future!

A sheep,
-Finrock

Christ wasn't excommunicated, He is the Church. Also, your reasoning is lacking. Are you in training to be Amonhies?

Christ was excommunicated and sentenced death by the leaders of the church at that time. It is a biblical fact.

I'm sorry for your pain and loss, rewcox. May God bless you, my friend!

-Finrock

What are you trying to setup? It won't work, you've already labeled yourself.

[Finrock]

Look up the definition of a rant. My statement in no way can be called a rant, unless someone is being unkind and trying to belittle what I'm saying because they don't like it. Also, it wasn't against leaders. It was against wolves attacking sheep by calling sheep wolves. It was about people who judge and accuse people wrongfully. It was also a statement of fact. Jesus Christ was a sheep, excommunicated and slaughtered by wolves.

Finally, calling my sincere and well reasoned posts rants is unkind. Please don't be unkind. Thank you, rewcox, for being a sheep and treating me with respect in the future!

A sheep,
-Finrock

Christ wasn't excommunicated, He is the Church. Also, your reasoning is lacking. Are you in training to be Amonhies?

Christ was excommunicated and sentenced death by the leaders of the church at that time. It is a biblical fact.

I'm sorry for your pain and loss, rewcox. May God bless you, my friend!

-Finrock

What are you trying to setup? It won't work, you've already labeled yourself.

That is true. I did label myself as a Sheep. Although we shouldn't define ourselves or others by a label, I suppose that is a label I don't mind being associated with. Some other labels that help to define me are father, brother, son, husband, professional, good natured, sincere, kind, loving, conscientious, dedicated, prideful, mortal, weak...and there are many more.

I guess my point is that I am many things, like all people, we are more than just a label.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I don't understand the question, but it seems...paranoid?

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

What I see is an attempt to justify unethical behavior by accusing/calling a person a wolf. It's an easy excuse and an easy way to not have to deal with uncomfortable content by saying that the person who is sharing the information is a wolf/monster/evil/bad. But, we are talking about a discussion forum presumably with adults of cogent minds and average to above average IQ. There is no physical attacks or threats to a person going on here. There is no evidence of coercion or any such thing. If a person on this forum is using argumentation to get a point across or to share a message and you think it is in error, then show through logic, reason, and through persuasion that they are incorrect. Rather than treat a person who may be sincere, as a wolf, expose the error in their reasoning and in their argument by attacking the premises of their arguments. If they are in error, deceptive, lying, or an actual "wolf" you will prove it by exposing the error in their argument but never by simply accusing them of being a wolf. If they are sincere but wrong, by reasonably exposing the falsity in their message you may be able to assist them see the error of their ways or if they are on an errand of the adversary, then you will expose that as well. If, however, they make a point that is reasonable, based in fact, or if their premises support their conclusions, then you need to be ready to reevaluate what you believe is true or right. This is called intellectual humility. It is the recognition that humans have the tendency to be ego- and/or socio-centric and our minds have a tendency to believe we "know" more than we actually do. By having intellectual humility we will admit when we are wrong and give credit for well reasoned arguments even if they are against what we might currently believe or think we know to be true and/or right.

What I see are people who are loyal to their social group (LDS Church in this case) as opposed to being loyal to absolute truth. I see people who don't want to actually have a discussion and deal with the content because either a) they cannot because logic/reason/persuasion/truth doesn't support them b) they themselves are being dishonest c) they don't know how d) pride e) or some other reason and so instead they are content with using a very carnal, natural, and age old tactic of argumentum ad hominem, which is logically fallacious and is a sign of weakness in one's beliefs and/or faith, and which doesn't prove anything or even address what their opponent is saying or arguing.

-Finrock

You were involved in that conversation between George and the Amonhies. One of the Amonhies told George that Christ would say he didn't know him, and that George would go to the Telestial Kingdom.

Completely wrong and false. As in false prophets. These are the folks who claim C&E, multiple visits with Christ, etc.

You think you know the truth, but you don't. You are missing it completely.

Thank you for your concern for me, rewcox but I'm a sheep. Also, judging and accusing people is unkind.

As far as what you are talking about, people who aren't sheep of the Good Shepherd are not going to the Celestial Kingdom. I don't know who those people are, but I do know what Celestial behavior is like. It is kind, meek, friendly, uplifting, just, fair, and courageous. In the Celestial Kingdom we will not accuse and judge others. Communicating and interacting in a Celestial way is clear and simple. A child knows exactly what it means to be respectful and kind. Celestial communication does not involve name calling, belittling, or using arguments of irrelevance or other fallacious reasoning tactics. I can judge and know when I'm hearing Celestial communication versus Telestial communication. We judge and reveal ourselves by our dispositions and how we treat others. I am not going to apologize for recognizing universal standards of good thinking, acting, and discussing. What is moral is moral. If I point out a universal truth, one that is recognized by religion and academics alike, and you find yourself outside of that truth, I am not to blame. We each need to take accountability for how we treat and interact with others.

The age old excuse of making yourself a defender of truth does not nor will it ever justify treating people disrespectfully, especially during the course of a discussion and in our communications and interactions with others. Attack the premises of a person's arguments, not the person. When you proceed to attack the person by calling them names, accusing them, or attempting to validate the truth content of their message based on who they associate with, their gender, their religion, their political affiliations, etc., you have stepped outside of the realm of ethical and moral discourse and are engaging in a pattern that is Satanic and carnal in nature. I didn't make the rules up. I'm recognize them and I am pointing them out. Your only ethical and moral recourse at this point, rewcox, is to attack the premises of my arguments. Show me where my logic and reason fails. If you attack me in any way, you are not acting as a sheep. But, you don't even have a point. You are just attacking my character and trying to undermine what I'm saying by calling me names, accusing me, belittling me, and throwing disparaging comments at me.

I would expect a person who is a wolf to attack my character. They would use disparaging language. They would use labels, stereotypes, and other arguments of irrelevance. If you find yourself doing this, please stop. Please treat me and others respectfully. Everything I say is with sincerity and based on facts and truth as I understand it. I can backup all of my claims and welcome any true and reasonable challenge to my words. I look forward to being shown that I am in error because I glory in living in truth. I would highly enjoy having a discussion with individuals who exemplify the characteristics of intellectual integrity, intellectual humility, and intellectual courage.

-Finrock

In your post above you said this;

Also, judging and accusing people is unkind.

You are right, judging and accusing people is unkind, however, it's difficult to avoid as we see here in your earlier post on this thread:

Just to clarify, I don't mean the owner and moderators here, but rather you can find the same phenomenon of Mormons who teach and praise tolerance until you speak out against one of their sacred cows, then the fangs, snarls, and growls come out. As long as you believe and act just as the self proclaimed TBMs do you will be fine. As soon as you say any word that isn't total agreement with the Apostles or the Church, watch out! You are now their enemy and fresh meat is back on the menu!

-Finrock

I think we could all cut others some slack as it's hard to not be guilty ourselves. Most of us are able to see others' faults but less able to see our own.

Who are 'Wolves' and who are 'Sheep', seems to depend on the eye of the beholder. ;)

[Finrock]

What I see is an attempt to justify unethical behavior by accusing/calling a person a wolf. It's an easy excuse and an easy way to not have to deal with uncomfortable content by saying that the person who is sharing the information is a wolf/monster/evil/bad. But, we are talking about a discussion forum presumably with adults of cogent minds and average to above average IQ. There is no physical attacks or threats to a person going on here. There is no evidence of coercion or any such thing. If a person on this forum is using argumentation to get a point across or to share a message and you think it is in error, then show through logic, reason, and through persuasion that they are incorrect. Rather than treat a person who may be sincere, as a wolf, expose the error in their reasoning and in their argument by attacking the premises of their arguments. If they are in error, deceptive, lying, or an actual "wolf" you will prove it by exposing the error in their argument but never by simply accusing them of being a wolf. If they are sincere but wrong, by reasonably exposing the falsity in their message you may be able to assist them see the error of their ways or if they are on an errand of the adversary, then you will expose that as well. If, however, they make a point that is reasonable, based in fact, or if their premises support their conclusions, then you need to be ready to reevaluate what you believe is true or right. This is called intellectual humility. It is the recognition that humans have the tendency to be ego- and/or socio-centric and our minds have a tendency to believe we "know" more than we actually do. By having intellectual humility we will admit when we are wrong and give credit for well reasoned arguments even if they are against what we might currently believe or think we know to be true and/or right.

What I see are people who are loyal to their social group (LDS Church in this case) as opposed to being loyal to absolute truth. I see people who don't want to actually have a discussion and deal with the content because either a) they cannot because logic/reason/persuasion/truth doesn't support them b) they themselves are being dishonest c) they don't know how d) pride e) or some other reason and so instead they are content with using a very carnal, natural, and age old tactic of argumentum ad hominem, which is logically fallacious and is a sign of weakness in one's beliefs and/or faith, and which doesn't prove anything or even address what their opponent is saying or arguing.

-Finrock

You were involved in that conversation between George and the Amonhies. One of the Amonhies told George that Christ would say he didn't know him, and that George would go to the Telestial Kingdom.

Completely wrong and false. As in false prophets. These are the folks who claim C&E, multiple visits with Christ, etc.

You think you know the truth, but you don't. You are missing it completely.

Thank you for your concern for me, rewcox but I'm a sheep. Also, judging and accusing people is unkind.

As far as what you are talking about, people who aren't sheep of the Good Shepherd are not going to the Celestial Kingdom. I don't know who those people are, but I do know what Celestial behavior is like. It is kind, meek, friendly, uplifting, just, fair, and courageous. In the Celestial Kingdom we will not accuse and judge others. Communicating and interacting in a Celestial way is clear and simple. A child knows exactly what it means to be respectful and kind. Celestial communication does not involve name calling, belittling, or using arguments of irrelevance or other fallacious reasoning tactics. I can judge and know when I'm hearing Celestial communication versus Telestial communication. We judge and reveal ourselves by our dispositions and how we treat others. I am not going to apologize for recognizing universal standards of good thinking, acting, and discussing. What is moral is moral. If I point out a universal truth, one that is recognized by religion and academics alike, and you find yourself outside of that truth, I am not to blame. We each need to take accountability for how we treat and interact with others.

The age old excuse of making yourself a defender of truth does not nor will it ever justify treating people disrespectfully, especially during the course of a discussion and in our communications and interactions with others. Attack the premises of a person's arguments, not the person. When you proceed to attack the person by calling them names, accusing them, or attempting to validate the truth content of their message based on who they associate with, their gender, their religion, their political affiliations, etc., you have stepped outside of the realm of ethical and moral discourse and are engaging in a pattern that is Satanic and carnal in nature. I didn't make the rules up. I'm recognize them and I am pointing them out. Your only ethical and moral recourse at this point, rewcox, is to attack the premises of my arguments. Show me where my logic and reason fails. If you attack me in any way, you are not acting as a sheep. But, you don't even have a point. You are just attacking my character and trying to undermine what I'm saying by calling me names, accusing me, belittling me, and throwing disparaging comments at me.

I would expect a person who is a wolf to attack my character. They would use disparaging language. They would use labels, stereotypes, and other arguments of irrelevance. If you find yourself doing this, please stop. Please treat me and others respectfully. Everything I say is with sincerity and based on facts and truth as I understand it. I can backup all of my claims and welcome any true and reasonable challenge to my words. I look forward to being shown that I am in error because I glory in living in truth. I would highly enjoy having a discussion with individuals who exemplify the characteristics of intellectual integrity, intellectual humility, and intellectual courage.

-Finrock

In your post above you said this;

Also, judging and accusing people is unkind.

You are right, judging and accusing people is unkind, however, it's difficult to avoid as we see here in your earlier post on this thread:

Just to clarify, I don't mean the owner and moderators here, but rather you can find the same phenomenon of Mormons who teach and praise tolerance until you speak out against one of their sacred cows, then the fangs, snarls, and growls come out. As long as you believe and act just as the self proclaimed TBMs do you will be fine. As soon as you say any word that isn't total agreement with the Apostles or the Church, watch out! You are now their enemy and fresh meat is back on the menu!

-Finrock

I think we could all cut others some slack as it's hard to not be guilty ourselves. Most of us are able to see others' faults but less able to see our own.

Who are 'Wolves' and who are 'Sheep', seems to depend on the eye of the beholder. ;)

Good points. I especially appreciated the comment "who are 'Wolves' and who are 'Sheep', seems to depend on the eye of the beholder. It is essentially the point of why I said anything to Onsdag in the first place.

I would only say that I really believe you are making something equal that is not equal. What I stated in the paragraph of mine that you quoted is behavior of individuals that is demonstrably true; can be factually shown (minus the hyperbolic flare I added for comedic effect). If you are sincere and require me to, I will demonstrate through facts the behavior I am describing.

On the other hand you have individuals who are, in the course of a discussion, resorting to labeling, name calling, and accusing their opponent in the discussion without any effort to prove or demonstrate their words, while completely ignoring the content of their opponents posts. Argumentum ad hominem is not equal to demonstrably true; factually shown behavior.

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

Finrock, I was trying to figure out how this thread went from 'will there be a call out?' to 'Sheep and Wolves' and it looks like it veered with your comment back on page 2 below:

He posts under the name 'LDSMarco' here and on AVOW, Facebook, YouTube, etc. That's his voice you hear in the OP.

And he got a lot of flack on AVOW for daring to challenge their sacred belief of a call out.

Sounds like their MO hasn't changed from when I was there. The owner and moderators preach tolerance, but they'll be the first to show intolerance towards anyone who questions certain sacred cows, or dares to "steady the Ark" (Seriously, Christopher equated my calling Julie Rowe out as me steadying the Ark). There were a number of us, including a moderator, who were silenced and driven away from AVOW because of the sacred cow known as Julie Rowe. As long as you act the part of one of the sheep you'll be fine, but as soon as you in any way threaten the wolves' sheepdogs' food source flock then watch out!

The very same thing can be found here.

-Finrock

LDSmarco started the thread and someone mentioned his problems with AVOW (certainly because of his stance on church wide call out) and Onsdag brought up his own problems on AVOW (he challenged and exposed Julie Rowe). I think you created the controversy when you directed his negative comments about AVOW towards this forum.
Then you exacerbated it when you attempted to clarify that you didn't mean to criticize the owner/moderator, but instead wanted to criticize your fellow board members.

That is what put you in the crosshairs.

I know you see the problems in many others' efforts to defend their positions, but when you publicly call them out(your post I quoted earlier), in a general way--it's like buckshot--you hit a lot of people and this puts them all on the defensive--it did me, which is why I commented.

You are right, there is name calling and rudeness often on both sides of discussions here, but personally, I'm glad Brian errs on being more relaxed in moderating. Many years ago I was on a forum that was so strict, we walked on verbal eggshells. I like it better here where we aren't so constrained. And in order to keep the board civil, we do need to take responsibility and 'censure' ourselves at times.

As for 'wolves'--Are there people on this forum who don't have honest intentions? Yes, I'm certain there are, but in general, LDSFF members have good intentions but often we are unskilled and/or too emotional in making our points.

I doubt we'll come to agreement on this, but maybe we can agree that this tangent has been discussed sufficiently and allow the discussion to go back to the topic of a Call out.

[Rumpelstiltskin]

We are blessed to be led by a modern-day prophet and other inspired leaders. We need to follow them. They have not mentioned tent cities, but they have counseled us to prepare for adversity by having a supply of food and water, and money in savings. We have been counseled:

“We encourage members worldwide to prepare for adversity in life by having a basic supply of food and water and some money in savings. We ask that you be wise, and do not go to extremes. With careful planning, you can, over time, establish a home storage supply and a financial reserve.”

Notice we have been told to prepare, but also counseled “do not go to extremes”. We should prepare for the future by following both parts of this counsel.

I never did believe in the idea of a call out. It simply flies in the face of prophecy and scripture. There are a great many deceived people on AVOW and they rush after any little rumor that comes along. good vide0.