No Paid Ministry

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investigator
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No Paid Ministry

Post by investigator »

Serious question: In light of the recent GA salary disclosures, how does the church justify the following statements?
Inasmuch as there is no paid ministry in the Church, service opportunities are available to men, women, and children of all ages."- Elder Franklin D. Richards

"In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is no paid ministry, no professional clergy, as is common in other churches." -Elder Boyd K. Packer

"Over the years of my membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have greatly appreciated the opportunities for service, for there is no paid ministry." -Elder Derek A. Cuthbert

"I explained also that our Church has no paid ministry and indicated that these were two reasons why we were able to build the buildings then under way, including the beautiful temple at Freiberg." -Elder Thomas S. Monson

"Because there is no paid ministry, almost every churchgoer has a responsibility." Mormon Newsroom

We recognize how busy you are. Without a paid professional ministry, the responsibility for administering the Church depends on you consecrated members. Quinton Cook April 2012

We have no professionally trained and salaried clergy in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Dallin Oaks April 2012
Last edited by investigator on January 15th, 2017, 8:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lizzy60
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Lizzy60 »

"Some things that are true are not very useful." BKP

"Some truths are best left unsaid." RMN

"When truth is constrained by other virtues, the outcome is not falsehood, but silence for a season." DHO

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Obrien
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Obrien »

Lizzy60 wrote:"Some things that are true are not very useful." BKP

"Some truths are best left unsaid." RMN

"When truth is constrained by other virtues, the outcome is not falsehood, but silence for a season." DHO
"The truth shall set you free" - Jesus 32

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Robin Hood
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Robin Hood »

Obrien wrote:
"The truth shall set you free" - Jesus 32
It says "....and the truth shall make you free".
I think there is a difference between "set" and "make".

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Obrien
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Obrien »

Robin Hood wrote:
Obrien wrote:
"The truth shall set you free" - Jesus 32
It says "....and the truth shall make you free".
I think there is a difference between "set" and "make".
Ok, I'm not stopping you from thinking there's a difference.

Does "set" v "make" in my "quote" substantially change decades of deception (and I intentionally select the word deception) from our leaders regarding a paid clergy?

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Robin Hood
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Robin Hood »

Obrien wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:
Obrien wrote:
"The truth shall set you free" - Jesus 32
It says "....and the truth shall make you free".
I think there is a difference between "set" and "make".
Ok, I'm not stopping you from thinking there's a difference.

Does "set" v "make" in my "quote" substantially change decades of deception (and I intentionally select the word deception) from our leaders regarding a paid clergy?
There has been no deception.
It has always been known that GA's get a stipend. Not only that, but it's justified in the D&C.

There are around 100 GA's.
There are approximately 3,500 Stake Presidents, 7000 SP counsellors, 26,000 Bishops, 52,000 bishopric counsellors, 42,000 Stake High Councillors, 3,500 Patriarchs, 26,000 ward mission leaders, then there are HPGL's, EQP's, RSP's....... the list goes on. None of whom get a penny.
So the claim that we have an unpaid ministry is pretty accurate in my view.

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investigator
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by investigator »

Robin Hood wrote:
Obrien wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:
Obrien wrote:
"The truth shall set you free" - Jesus 32
It says "....and the truth shall make you free".
I think there is a difference between "set" and "make".
Ok, I'm not stopping you from thinking there's a difference.

Does "set" v "make" in my "quote" substantially change decades of deception (and I intentionally select the word deception) from our leaders regarding a paid clergy?
There has been no deception.
It has always been known that GA's get a stipend. Not only that, but it's justified in the D&C.

There are around 100 GA's.
There are approximately 3,500 Stake Presidents, 7000 SP counsellors, 26,000 Bishops, 52,000 bishopric counsellors, 42,000 Stake High Councillors, 3,500 Patriarchs, 26,000 ward mission leaders, then there are HPGL's, EQP's, RSP's....... the list goes on. None of whom get a penny.
So the claim that we have an unpaid ministry is pretty accurate in my view.
So if 7 different general authorities state that there is NO paid ministry, how is that accurate when we know that there is paid ministry. In fact, the very ones who are saying there is no paid ministry, are ministers who are being paid?
Last edited by investigator on January 15th, 2017, 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lizzy60
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Lizzy60 »

It has not always been known that the GA's receive salaries. As recently as 2012, a blogger posted this description of how the GA's are paid. It doesn't match what has been revealed via MormonLeaks.

https://thomasmonson.com/858/how-much-m ... onson-make" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

eddie
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by eddie »

The fact that this stipend exists has not been hidden. As President Hinckley noted in General Conference:
Merchandising interests are an outgrowth of the cooperative movement which existed among our people in pioneer times. The Church has maintained certain real estate holdings, particularly those contiguous to Temple Square, to help preserve the beauty and the integrity of the core of the city. All of these commercial properties are tax-paying entities.
I repeat, the combined income from all of these business interests is relatively small and would not keep the work going for longer than a very brief period.
I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people.

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investigator
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by investigator »

eddie wrote:The fact that this stipend exists has not been hidden. As President Hinckley noted in General Conference:
Merchandising interests are an outgrowth of the cooperative movement which existed among our people in pioneer times. The Church has maintained certain real estate holdings, particularly those contiguous to Temple Square, to help preserve the beauty and the integrity of the core of the city. All of these commercial properties are tax-paying entities.
I repeat, the combined income from all of these business interests is relatively small and would not keep the work going for longer than a very brief period.
I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people.
The issue is not that they get paid. The issue is that they get paid but they say there is no paid ministry. The question is, how do they justify saying that.

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shadow
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by shadow »

investigator wrote:
eddie wrote:The fact that this stipend exists has not been hidden. As President Hinckley noted in General Conference:
Merchandising interests are an outgrowth of the cooperative movement which existed among our people in pioneer times. The Church has maintained certain real estate holdings, particularly those contiguous to Temple Square, to help preserve the beauty and the integrity of the core of the city. All of these commercial properties are tax-paying entities.
I repeat, the combined income from all of these business interests is relatively small and would not keep the work going for longer than a very brief period.
I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people.
The issue is not that they get paid. The issue is that they get paid but they say there is no paid ministry. The question is, how do they justify saying that.
If you look at the context of those quotes it's referring to wards and stakes and that's also where the real ministry takes place.
I've never been paid for the many, many callings I've had and neither has my wife.
Back when Joseph Smith was around not only were apostles and the prophet paid, but the SP and bishop's were paid too. And even then it wasn't a professional ministy

Ezra
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Ezra »

investigator wrote:
eddie wrote:The fact that this stipend exists has not been hidden. As President Hinckley noted in General Conference:
Merchandising interests are an outgrowth of the cooperative movement which existed among our people in pioneer times. The Church has maintained certain real estate holdings, particularly those contiguous to Temple Square, to help preserve the beauty and the integrity of the core of the city. All of these commercial properties are tax-paying entities.
I repeat, the combined income from all of these business interests is relatively small and would not keep the work going for longer than a very brief period.
I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people.
The issue is not that they get paid. The issue is that they get paid but they say there is no paid ministry. The question is, how do they justify saying that.
I would imagine the difference being. If at the end of the year they or their family we're ahead of where they were at the beginning without having a job. Then they are payed. If they at the end of the year had as much as they did at the beginning in the bank without spending money on things other then the basic things required to live. then they the church is just supporting them to do their calling.

I would imagine that being in that position they either have a choice of living within their means with no unnecessary expenses. And at the end of the year give back any extra money. Or having unnecessary expenses or not giving back the extra at the end of the year. I would imagine there would be some guilt involved in the later. It would be sin and something they would have to deal with. Part of their test. Part of them being honest or not.

Finrock
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Finrock »

Is it possible that they are making a distinction between clergy and travelling ministers? Maybe some special definition of clergy?

Back when I was still influenced by my cognitive dissonance I justified it by calling what they got paid a stipend or a living allowance, and therefore they technically were not getting a salary because we weren't calling it a salary. Kinda silly looking back on it now.

It's funny how we rationalize things.

I know people want to say that it's barely a benefit, but, dude, I don't known about the rest of you guys, but 120000 a year is a lot money. I'm a family of 8 and although I make above average, it doesn't stretch as far with all the mouths to feed. We are blessed, for sure, and I can't complain, but I know a good deal when I see one. There are millions of people who work as hard or harder than the GA and who genuinely have a tougher time at it and they would just be thrilled to get what the GAs get.

All I can say at the end us that its cognitive dissonance and eventually the illusion will fall away and all things will be laid bare. The Church clearly takes advantage of language and rhetorical devices in defending the "truth".

-Finrock

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rewcox
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by rewcox »

Finrock wrote:Is it possible that they are making a distinction between clergy and travelling ministers? Maybe some special definition of clergy?

Back when I was still influenced by my cognitive dissonance I justified it by calling what they got paid a stipend or a living allowance, and therefore they technically were not getting a salary because we weren't calling it a salary. Kinda silly looking back on it now.

It's funny how we rationalize things.

I know people want to say that it's barely a benefit, but, dude, I don't known about the rest of you guys, but 120000 a year is a lot money. I'm a family of 8 and although I make above average, it doesn't stretch as far with all the mouths to feed. We are blessed, for sure, and I can't complain, but I know a good deal when I see one. There are millions of people who work as hard or harder than the GA and who genuinely have a tougher time at it and they would just be thrilled to get what the GAs get.

All I can say at the end us that its cognitive dissonance and eventually the illusion will fall away and all things will be laid bare. The Church clearly takes advantage of language and rhetorical devices in defending the "truth".

-Finrock
Where is cognitive dissonance in the scriptures?

Also, if you are traveling all the time, where do you get enough to take care of your family?

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Joel
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Joel »

Maybe No Paid Ministry means "No Paid Ministry" kind like translation means "translation" sometimes?
Personally I see no problem with paying them if that is what the church wants to do

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rewcox
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by rewcox »

I think this is causing some stir.

I'm asking some serious questions, not making fun. Maybe some examples would clarify how people feel about this.

Let's say you have been called to serve as a General Authority, you will be based in Salt Lake City, Utah.

Example 1: You live in Massachusetts, you have done well in life and have a good retirement plan. You will give up your work so you can work 100% of the time for God. You will be traveling 48 weekends in the year to places all around the world. How is your family taken care of as you are traveling so much of the time.

What do you do with your current house? What kind of a house do you buy in Salt Lake? What about cars? The Church offers you a living allowance, do you take it?

Example 2: You live in Missouri, you have been faithful but have struggled in your life to make ends meet. You can sell your current home but little to help in you Salt Lake. You will be traveling 48 weekends in the year to places all around the world. How is your family taken care of as you are traveling so much of the time.

What do you do with your current house? What kind of a house do you buy in Salt Lake? What about cars? The Church offers you a living allowance, do you take it?

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rewcox
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by rewcox »

More questions.

Do you believe the GA's should be like Bishops and continue to work but receive no living allowance?


If you agree with a living allowance, what do you think is a proper amount?

Lizzy60
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Lizzy60 »

Transparency = honesty

The financials of the Church have been hidden from the members for as long as most of us have been alive.

Add to that, we are counseled that "questioning" is wrong, as is saying anything negative about the Brethren, even if it's true. If a convert is made aware of this, how far toward joining the church will they go? Or, will we come across as cultish?

Finrock
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Finrock »

rewcox wrote:
Finrock wrote:Is it possible that they are making a distinction between clergy and travelling ministers? Maybe some special definition of clergy?

Back when I was still influenced by my cognitive dissonance I justified it by calling what they got paid a stipend or a living allowance, and therefore they technically were not getting a salary because we weren't calling it a salary. Kinda silly looking back on it now.

It's funny how we rationalize things.

I know people want to say that it's barely a benefit, but, dude, I don't known about the rest of you guys, but 120000 a year is a lot money. I'm a family of 8 and although I make above average, it doesn't stretch as far with all the mouths to feed. We are blessed, for sure, and I can't complain, but I know a good deal when I see one. There are millions of people who work as hard or harder than the GA and who genuinely have a tougher time at it and they would just be thrilled to get what the GAs get.

All I can say at the end us that its cognitive dissonance and eventually the illusion will fall away and all things will be laid bare. The Church clearly takes advantage of language and rhetorical devices in defending the "truth".

-Finrock
Where is cognitive dissonance in the scriptures?

Also, if you are traveling all the time, where do you get enough to take care of your family?
Trust in God? How did the early Apostles do it? Do the modern day Apostles compare?

But, the real issue is that we say "No paid ministry" yet we have a paid ministry. Its sophistry to say otherwise. We, as members, either don't know and if we do know we live in a state of cognitive dissonance, where reality clearly doesn't match what we say.

-Finrock

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Obrien
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Obrien »

rewcox wrote:More questions.

Do you believe the GA's should be like Bishops and continue to work but receive no living allowance?


If you agree with a living allowance, what do you think is a proper amount?
Perhaps our leaders should have faith that the Lord would look after their needs. This is the advice Jesus gave the disciples and apostles when they were sent out to minister.

Thomas
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Thomas »

D&C 84: 54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
I guess I have a problem with it. In the book of Alma, there is a story of the man named Nehor. Nehor preaches that leaders of the church should be popular and should not labor for their own support. They should be supported by the labors of those they minister to. Alma declares this to be priestcrafts and says, if it is allowed to continue, it would lead to the total destruction of the people.

Alma teaches the correct way is for those who minister and teach should labor for their own support and no man should esteem himself greater than those who are taught. After they gathered to worship, they who are taught and the teachers both should return to their labors.

So it pains me to see that our church operates under the principles taught by Nehor and not by what Alma taught. Obviously, the leaders of the church have made them selves popular. They esteem themselves to be greater then everyone else and take money for teaching.
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
Notice the quote says, abiding by it's precepts. Too bad we don't abide by them. We just give lip service to a scripture here and a scripture there.

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jbalm
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by jbalm »

I wonder how much Jesus's stipend will be when he comes back. I think he should get a higher amount than the other guys.

Plus he should get back pay.

eddie
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by eddie »

shadow wrote:
investigator wrote:
eddie wrote:The fact that this stipend exists has not been hidden. As President Hinckley noted in General Conference:
Merchandising interests are an outgrowth of the cooperative movement which existed among our people in pioneer times. The Church has maintained certain real estate holdings, particularly those contiguous to Temple Square, to help preserve the beauty and the integrity of the core of the city. All of these commercial properties are tax-paying entities.
I repeat, the combined income from all of these business interests is relatively small and would not keep the work going for longer than a very brief period.
I should like to add, parenthetically for your information, that the living allowances given the General Authorities, which are very modest in comparison with executive compensation in industry and the professions, come from this business income and not from the tithing of the people.
The issue is not that they get paid. The issue is that they get paid but they say there is no paid ministry. The question is, how do they justify saying that.
If you look at the context of those quotes it's referring to wards and stakes and that's also where the real ministry takes place.
I've never been paid for the many, many callings I've had and neither has my wife.
Back when Joseph Smith was around not only were apostles and the prophet paid, but the SP and bishop's were paid too. And even then it wasn't a professional ministy
Thanks for clarifying!

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rewcox
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by rewcox »

Obrien wrote:
rewcox wrote:More questions.

Do you believe the GA's should be like Bishops and continue to work but receive no living allowance?


If you agree with a living allowance, what do you think is a proper amount?
Perhaps our leaders should have faith that the Lord would look after their needs. This is the advice Jesus gave the disciples and apostles when they were sent out to minister.
So it sounds like the reds think the GAs should not receive a living allowance. How would the Lord look after their needs? I'm sure their are many well-to-do mormons who would help out. The billion-aire Jon Huntsman could fund the whole group.

Would that make you feel better?

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Finrock »

rewcox wrote:
Obrien wrote:
rewcox wrote:More questions.

Do you believe the GA's should be like Bishops and continue to work but receive no living allowance?


If you agree with a living allowance, what do you think is a proper amount?
Perhaps our leaders should have faith that the Lord would look after their needs. This is the advice Jesus gave the disciples and apostles when they were sent out to minister.
So it sounds like the reds think the GAs should not receive a living allowance. How would the Lord look after their needs? I'm sure their are many well-to-do mormons who would help out. The billion-aire Jon Huntsman could fund the whole group.

Would that make you feel better?
You are avoiding the issue. How did the ancient Apostles do it? How do they compare to the modern day Apostles? Also, why say there is NO paid ministry, when clearly there is? Further, why not just admit that there is a paid ministry? Why the sophistry and semantics?

-Finrock

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