No Paid Ministry

[butterfly]

If you complain/murmur about the church and leaders, you are not biased...

If you believe and have a testimony that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true and living church upon the earth, that Christ leads his Church, and that Christ selects His leaders and has given them the Priesthood and keys to operate the Church, then you are biased...

This is a murmuring/complaining thread, by the Reds who only want to complain. No one has responded to the questions I asked.

Finrock has an obsession about leaders being evil.

Amonhi has several different people who post for him. One Amonhi decided to send George to the telestial kingdom because George did not agree with Amonhi. It looks like the nicer Amonhi is in this thread, but still having issues on the truth.

When I said biased, I ment completely to the point that if you are for the church you can see no bad or if you are against the church you can see no good.

An honest person will see both good and bad in the church because both exist. A dishonest person will only see one or the other.

It is true that several people post for me.

Peace,
Amonhi

May I ask, Amonhi, why exactly do you have several people posting for you?
Maybe this is a common thing on internet forums that I am not aware of, but this is my first encounter with it and it strikes me as very odd. What motivates you to do this?

[Obrien]

Serious question: In light of the recent GA salary disclosures, how does the church justify the following statements?

Inasmuch as there is no paid ministry in the Church, service opportunities are available to men, women, and children of all ages."- Elder Franklin D. Richards

"In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is no paid ministry, no professional clergy, as is common in other churches." -Elder Boyd K. Packer

"Over the years of my membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have greatly appreciated the opportunities for service, for there is no paid ministry." -Elder Derek A. Cuthbert

"I explained also that our Church has no paid ministry and indicated that these were two reasons why we were able to build the buildings then under way, including the beautiful temple at Freiberg." -Elder Thomas S. Monson

"Because there is no paid ministry, almost every churchgoer has a responsibility." Mormon Newsroom

We recognize how busy you are. Without a paid professional ministry, the responsibility for administering the Church depends on you consecrated members. Quinton Cook April 2012

We have no professionally trained and salaried clergy in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Dallin Oaks April 2012

I have two ideas for this.

They aren't being paid for their ministry as the Lords servants. They are only being paid for their secondary roles as CEOS of the for profit corporate side of the church which has numerous businesses and is separate from the ministry side of things. They make their money when they make financial decisions, not spiritual ones. So technically this is true if you think of it this way.

Or maybe they do not consider themselves as clergy or ministry, and they believe ministers or clergy only refer to local leaders like bishops, teachers and stake leaders?

Why not call it a "salary" then, instead of a stipend?
Why would anyone want to follow them on religious matters, if they are not clergy / ministry? And why would they insist that we must all agree they are all PSRs in order to get a temple recommend if they are not ministers of the gospel?

Use Occams razor - the simplest explanation is likely the closest to the truth - GAs receive stipends because it is priest craft to sell your tokens for money. :-\

[Obrien]

So if the GAs aren't "ministry," then there's no need to sit around for hours, biannually, and listen to them potifiicate. Yes?

biannual audial pontification - it sounds amazing...

[jbalm]

Maybe if you have insomnia.

[Col. Flagg]

So if the GAs aren't "ministry," then there's no need to sit around for hours, biannually, and listen to them potifiicate. Yes?

Pontificate, no?

[Obrien]

So if the GAs aren't "ministry," then there's no need to sit around for hours, biannually, and listen to them potifiicate. Yes?

Pontificate, no?

Perhaps a freudian slip, considering the Marijuana WoW Can of Worms thread.

[jbalm]

Oops.

You know what I meant.

But good call.

[Col. Flagg]

So if the GAs aren't "ministry," then there's no need to sit around for hours, biannually, and listen to them potifiicate. Yes?

Pontificate, no?

Perhaps a freudian slip, considering the Marijuana WoW Can of Worms thread.

:))

[Col. Flagg]

Oops.

You know what I meant.

But good call.

B-)

[pjbrownie]

"The truth shall set you free" - Jesus 32

It says "....and the truth shall make you free".
I think there is a difference between "set" and "make".

Ok, I'm not stopping you from thinking there's a difference.

Does "set" v "make" in my "quote" substantially change decades of deception (and I intentionally select the word deception) from our leaders regarding a paid clergy?

There has been no deception.
It has always been known that GA's get a stipend. Not only that, but it's justified in the D&C.

There are around 100 GA's.
There are approximately 3,500 Stake Presidents, 7000 SP counsellors, 26,000 Bishops, 52,000 bishopric counsellors, 42,000 Stake High Councillors, 3,500 Patriarchs, 26,000 ward mission leaders, then there are HPGL's, EQP's, RSP's....... the list goes on. None of whom get a penny.
So the claim that we have an unpaid ministry is pretty accurate in my view.

I've seen the statistical quote going around. It is about 0.03% or essentially 0.

The problem with the statistic is hierarchical. Since those 100 supervise all those that aren't paid, the cumulative effect of the ministry skews a bit. Using weighted averages based on those the GA's supervise, the best the Church could say was that 50% of the ministry is unpaid, or the bottom half.

[Col. Flagg]

Was doing some research tonight on tithing... check this out...

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst-gen/14?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 14:37-39:

37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;

38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.

39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

Here's what is in the church manuals:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/14.20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And Abram gave him tithes of all.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princ ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tithing

Tithing is used by the Church for many purposes. Some of these are to:

1. Build, maintain, and operate temples, meetinghouses, and other buildings.
2. Provide operating funds for stakes, wards, and other units of the Church. (These units use the funds to carry out the ecclesiastical programs of the Church, which include teaching the gospel and conducting social activities.)
3. Help the missionary program.
4. Educate young people in Church schools, seminaries, and institutes.
5. Print and distribute lesson materials.
6. Help in family history and temple work.

Nothing mentioned at all about helping the poor and only #2 is mentioned in scripture. :-\

:-B

[butterfly]

Was doing some research tonight on tithing... check this out...

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst-gen/14?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 14:37-39:

37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;

38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.

39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

Here's what is in the church manuals:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/14.20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And Abram gave him tithes of all.

:-B

Interesting...
Rock Waterman's article includes similar finds- manuals not matching up with the scriptures, etc.
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2014/ ... -what.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/ ... thing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Col. Flagg]

Was doing some research tonight on tithing... check this out...

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst-gen/14?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Joseph Smith Translation, Genesis 14:37-39:

37 And he lifted up his voice, and he blessed Abram, being the high priest, and the keeper of the storehouse of God;

38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor.

39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.

Here's what is in the church manuals:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/14.20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And Abram gave him tithes of all.

:-B

Interesting...
Rock Waterman's article includes similar finds- manuals not matching up with the scriptures, etc.
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2014/ ... -what.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/ ... thing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[thisisspartaaa]

D&C 84: 54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

I guess I have a problem with it. In the book of Alma, there is a story of the man named Nehor. Nehor preaches that leaders of the church should be popular and should not labor for their own support. They should be supported by the labors of those they minister to. Alma declares this to be priestcrafts and says, if it is allowed to continue, it would lead to the total destruction of the people.

Alma teaches the correct way is for those who minister and teach should labor for their own support and no man should esteem himself greater than those who are taught. After they gathered to worship, they who are taught and the teachers both should return to their labors.

So it pains me to see that our church operates under the principles taught by Nehor and not by what Alma taught. Obviously, the leaders of the church have made them selves popular. They esteem themselves to be greater then everyone else and take money for teaching.

Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

Notice the quote says, abiding by it's precepts. Too bad we don't abide by them. We just give lip service to a scripture here and a scripture there.

I take issue with your summary. First and foremost, perhaps you should quote the actual scriptures before giving an inaccurate synopsis. This would be Alma Chapter 1.

Please tell me how the leaders of the Church have made themselves popular? You state it is "obvious." Everyone knew Alma. Shouldn't Alma be under condemnation because he was popular as well?

Please tell me how they esteem themselves to be greater than everyone else?

Please also tell me how they take money for teaching?

You give no evidence for this and just lay it out there as if it were fact. Please back up your comments with evidence.

Please tell me how GA's are not laboring with their own hands?

Also please tell me how GA's are being supported by the people? Tithes do not go toward the stipend but rather is supported through the LABORS of tax paying business entities.

You grossly misrepresent the precepts the book teaches. Rather than spewing unsubstantiated claims perhaps you should gather your facts before posting slander?

[thisisspartaaa]

Serious question: In light of the recent GA salary disclosures, how does the church justify the following statements?

Inasmuch as there is no paid ministry in the Church, service opportunities are available to men, women, and children of all ages."- Elder Franklin D. Richards

"In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is no paid ministry, no professional clergy, as is common in other churches." -Elder Boyd K. Packer

"Over the years of my membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have greatly appreciated the opportunities for service, for there is no paid ministry." -Elder Derek A. Cuthbert

"I explained also that our Church has no paid ministry and indicated that these were two reasons why we were able to build the buildings then under way, including the beautiful temple at Freiberg." -Elder Thomas S. Monson

"Because there is no paid ministry, almost every churchgoer has a responsibility." Mormon Newsroom

We recognize how busy you are. Without a paid professional ministry, the responsibility for administering the Church depends on you consecrated members. Quinton Cook April 2012

We have no professionally trained and salaried clergy in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Dallin Oaks April 2012

I have two ideas for this.

They aren't being paid for their ministry as the Lords servants. They are only being paid for their secondary roles as CEOS of the for profit corporate side of the church which has numerous businesses and is separate from the ministry side of things. They make their money when they make financial decisions, not spiritual ones. So technically this is true if you think of it this way.

Or maybe they do not consider themselves as clergy or ministry, and they believe ministers or clergy only refer to local leaders like bishops, teachers and stake leaders?

Why not call it a "salary" then, instead of a stipend?
Why would anyone want to follow them on religious matters, if they are not clergy / ministry? And why would they insist that we must all agree they are all PSRs in order to get a temple recommend if they are not ministers of the gospel?

Use Occams razor - the simplest explanation is likely the closest to the truth - GAs receive stipends because it is priest craft to sell your tokens for money. :-\

GAs receive stipends because they give 100% of their time to the Church. The Church supports the stipends through tax paying business entities.

They are stipends because they aren't employees of the business entities. If they were employees then it would be a wage. Hence, they are not a paid clergy receiving a wage like you may think of a Pastor at a local congregation. Why is this so hard for people to understand?? Take an accounting course!

Imagine that, the Lord provides a way for the Church to take care of its GA's who devote all their time to the Church. I guess for many of you out there they should be in rags down on the corner of the street.

For such a "conservative" forum, many members on here seem to have issues with success and business. I swear many on here are liberals

Why is it that so many of you on this forum think it is so wrong for the Church to create business enterprises?

[jbalm]

Missionaries give all their time to the church. And they pay for the privilege. What's up with that?

[ajax]

Missionaries give all their time to the church. And they pay for the privilege. What's up with that?

Sacrifice brings for the blessings of heaven...

All [ministers] are equal, but some [ministers] are more equal than others...

[FTC]

"Some things that are true are not very useful." BKP

"Some truths are best left unsaid." RMN

"When truth is constrained by other virtues, the outcome is not falsehood, but silence for a season." DHO

ALL truth circumscribed into one great whole? Hmm?

Truthfully, they don't receive a salary. Honestly, they receive $7,000+ a month of church monies. According to the IRS, aka, the laws of the land.

The whole thing is doublespeak word play. Which has been going on with the church since polygamy. Multi-level marketing companies are also rampant with doublespeak word play.

[thisisspartaaa]

Missionaries give all their time to the church. And they pay for the privilege. What's up with that?

Are you saying missionaries shouldn't have to pay? Who is going to fund 80000 missionaries' homes, food, etc.?

They aren't paying for the "privilege". Unless I'm mistaken and you don't have to pay for your home, utilities, food, clothing, etc.? You must have a privileged life then.

[thisisspartaaa]

"Some things that are true are not very useful." BKP

"Some truths are best left unsaid." RMN

"When truth is constrained by other virtues, the outcome is not falsehood, but silence for a season." DHO

ALL truth circumscribed into one great whole? Hmm?

Truthfully, they don't receive a salary. Honestly, they receive $7,000+ a month of church monies. According to the IRS, aka, the laws of the land.

The whole thing is doublespeak word play. Which has been going on with the church since polygamy. Multi-level marketing companies are also rampant with doublespeak word play.

It's not doublespeak. Are you suggesting the Church shouldn't do this and only select GAs who can totally and wholly support themselves with their own money for the remainder of their life or until age 70?

So only rich persons can be leaders of the Church? That would have excluded President Monson considering he was called at such an early age.

[Finrock]

"Some things that are true are not very useful." BKP

"Some truths are best left unsaid." RMN

"When truth is constrained by other virtues, the outcome is not falsehood, but silence for a season." DHO

ALL truth circumscribed into one great whole? Hmm?

Truthfully, they don't receive a salary. Honestly, they receive $7,000+ a month of church monies. According to the IRS, aka, the laws of the land.

The whole thing is doublespeak word play. Which has been going on with the church since polygamy. Multi-level marketing companies are also rampant with doublespeak word play.

It's not doublespeak. Are you suggesting the Church shouldn't do this and only select GAs who can totally and wholly support themselves with their own money for the remainder of their life or until age 70?

So only rich persons can be leaders of the Church? That would have excluded President Monson considering he was called at such an early age.

Saying its a stipend and not a salary does not take away from the fact that they are getting paid money and receiving a financial gain. It is double-speak to say that we don't have a paid ministry. Until my thirties I didn't have a clue that any person in the Church was paid at any level. As a missionary I completely and totally thought and believed that we had no paid ministers or clergy. I didn't think or imagine at that time that I had to have a more nuanced understanding of the phrase "no paid clergy". I was proud (in a good way proud) of the fact that we were different from most all other Churches where the clergy or leaders of the churches had a financial incentive to be doing what they were doing. I was surprised to learn that some leaders did actually receive money and that my simple and naïve definition of "no paid clergy" had to be more sophisticated and nuanced. I tried to live with the stipend versus salary distinction, but its a false distinction and its just a matter of semantics. The end result is the same.

The dichotomy in your post is false. It's not either the Church pays or only rich people get to be leaders. Plus, many are contending that all the leaders were rich before anyways and that the stipend is a loss for them. You can't have it both ways. But, the reality is that what you say isn't the only option. Is God not real? Does He not support other's in the ministry? There are thousands upon thousands of lay ministers and lay clergy, full-time missionaries, and others who rely completely/wholly on God to support them and to allow them serve in the world and in the Kingdom.

The Ancient Apostles went around without purse or script, relying on the mercies of God and the mercies of members and others. Of course they didn't have cars, vehicles, nice clothes, etc. They abandoned those things so that they could serve God.

So, there are other options that are more inline with scriptures than what is currently being done, namely, having faith in Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

You folks looking to kick something are just incorrect.

It's in the Doctrine and Covenants:

71 And the elders or high priests who are appointed to assist the bishop as counselors in all things, are to have their families supported out of the property which is consecrated to the bishop, for the good of the poor, and for other purposes, as before mentioned;

72 Or they are to receive a just remuneration for all their services, either a stewardship or otherwise, as may be thought best or decided by the counselors and bishop.

73 And the bishop, also, shall receive his support, or a just remuneration for all his services in the church.

Just remuneration.

Go ahead and kick something if you like. Or try some Goat Yoga.

[thisisspartaaa]

"Some things that are true are not very useful." BKP

"Some truths are best left unsaid." RMN

"When truth is constrained by other virtues, the outcome is not falsehood, but silence for a season." DHO

ALL truth circumscribed into one great whole? Hmm?

Truthfully, they don't receive a salary. Honestly, they receive $7,000+ a month of church monies. According to the IRS, aka, the laws of the land.

The whole thing is doublespeak word play. Which has been going on with the church since polygamy. Multi-level marketing companies are also rampant with doublespeak word play.

It's not doublespeak. Are you suggesting the Church shouldn't do this and only select GAs who can totally and wholly support themselves with their own money for the remainder of their life or until age 70?

So only rich persons can be leaders of the Church? That would have excluded President Monson considering he was called at such an early age.

Saying its a stipend and not a salary does not take away from the fact that they are getting paid money and receiving a financial gain. It is double-speak to say that we don't have a paid ministry. Until my thirties I didn't have a clue that any person in the Church was paid at any level. As a missionary I completely and totally thought and believed that we had no paid ministers or clergy. I didn't think or imagine at that time that I had to have a more nuanced understanding of the phrase "no paid clergy". I was proud (in a good way proud) of the fact that we were different from most all other Churches where the clergy or leaders of the churches had a financial incentive to be doing what they were doing. I was surprised to learn that some leaders did actually receive money and that my simple and naïve definition of "no paid clergy" had to be more sophisticated and nuanced. I tried to live with the stipend versus salary distinction, but its a false distinction and its just a matter of semantics. The end result is the same.

The dichotomy in your post is false. It's not either the Church pays or only rich people get to be leaders. Plus, many are contending that all the leaders were rich before anyways and that the stipend is a loss for them. You can't have it both ways. But, the reality is that what you say isn't the only option. Is God not real? Does He not support other's in the ministry? There are thousands upon thousands of lay ministers and lay clergy, full-time missionaries, and others who rely completely/wholly on God to support them and to allow them serve in the world and in the Kingdom.

The Ancient Apostles went around without purse or script, relying on the mercies of God and the mercies of members and others. Of course they didn't have cars, vehicles, nice clothes, etc. They abandoned those things so that they could serve God.

So, there are other options that are more inline with scriptures than what is currently being done, namely, having faith in Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

Have you considered that God is supporting the ministry through these business enterprises. Why is this a bad thing?

GAs do not receive a salary. They are not paid clergy. Receiving a stipend is not the same thing. The Church is taking the profits from its business entities and is giving that to the GAs in the form of a living allowance.

Why is this such a stumbling block for people?

[Col. Flagg]

You folks looking to kick something are just incorrect.

It's in the Doctrine and Covenants:

71 And the elders or high priests who are appointed to assist the bishop as counselors in all things, are to have their families supported out of the property which is consecrated to the bishop, for the good of the poor, and for other purposes, as before mentioned;

72 Or they are to receive a just remuneration for all their services, either a stewardship or otherwise, as may be thought best or decided by the counselors and bishop.

73 And the bishop, also, shall receive his support, or a just remuneration for all his services in the church.

Just remuneration.

Go ahead and kick something if you like. Or try some Goat Yoga.

I’m in the HPGL and was just assigned to be a steward over 35 people and I don’t get a dime for my work. Neither does our HPGL or 1st Asst or Secretary. Neither does our Bishop or his Counselors. Neither does the Stake President or his Counselors. Some Bishops essentially have a part-time job on their hands and deal with a LOT and never receive a penny for their time and effort and some SP's literally have a FT job on their hands. It would seem we aren’t following the scripture you just posted based on these facts.

[thisisspartaaa]

You folks looking to kick something are just incorrect.

It's in the Doctrine and Covenants:

71 And the elders or high priests who are appointed to assist the bishop as counselors in all things, are to have their families supported out of the property which is consecrated to the bishop, for the good of the poor, and for other purposes, as before mentioned;

72 Or they are to receive a just remuneration for all their services, either a stewardship or otherwise, as may be thought best or decided by the counselors and bishop.

73 And the bishop, also, shall receive his support, or a just remuneration for all his services in the church.

Just remuneration.

Go ahead and kick something if you like. Or try some Goat Yoga.

Scriptures are only to be used when they support your view