No Paid Ministry

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Col. Flagg
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Location: Utah County

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Col. Flagg »

rewcox wrote:
Col. Flagg wrote:
Mark wrote:
Col. Flagg wrote: Yikes... talk about a checkmate. :(

You are a hard one to understand son. First you say you are committed to the church and love serving in it with your callings etc but then you seem to turn around and gleefully cast aspersions on the men we sustain as Prophets/Seers/Revelators by pushing the agenda driven scenario that these men are not trustworthy or honest enough and dont have the integrity to reject this intimation of priestcraft being practiced in the LDS church by its top level leadership. Which team are you really on? Do you want everyone to doubt that their leaders are following a path sustained by the Savior? Would you like people to think the worst of these apostles? That seems to be your goal. Seems awfully doublesided to me.
Mark, you've known me for 8 years now... what has been the one area where I've been consistent? Challenging and/or calling into question what I perceive to be wrong! I love this gospel with every fabric of my being and I love our Savior and the Lord just as much and view everything as 'is it right or is it wrong', especially when it comes to gospel principles/doctrines? If I see it as wrong, I'm gonna say something, end of story. Joseph Smith himself said he had organized a church where men and women were free to question and express concerns when they saw or heard actions/decisions coming from church leadership that were contrary to scripture and/or Christ's teachings. Are you aware that there is a set of instructions in the D&C (section 102) for the members for the removal of church leaders from office should they stray? I find that rather interesting, don't you? These scriptures pretty much invalidate the notion (and what other church leaders have said) that the brethren are incapable of wrongdoing and/or leading the church astray. So please stop with these attacks of lacking faith and 'how dare you' question church leaders - it's old and unfounded and my testimony as is strong in the gospel as its ever been!
So Col, what is your opinion on how the full-time GAs should be taken care of? I've referenced D&C 43 to show in our dispensation that it is appropriate.

How do you see it?
It is my understanding that they are all given a church credit card (with no limit) with which to use when on official church business – I see no problem with them using a church-provided credit card for expenses such as meals, airfare, lodging, other travel expenses, etc., but to also provide them with a $120,000 salary is wrong, especially when in 1997 they removed themselves from the boards of the church’s businesses, thus truly having no justification for it.

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ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7988
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by ajax »

rewcox wrote:
Col. Flagg wrote:
Mark wrote:
Col. Flagg wrote: Yikes... talk about a checkmate. :(

You are a hard one to understand son. First you say you are committed to the church and love serving in it with your callings etc but then you seem to turn around and gleefully cast aspersions on the men we sustain as Prophets/Seers/Revelators by pushing the agenda driven scenario that these men are not trustworthy or honest enough and dont have the integrity to reject this intimation of priestcraft being practiced in the LDS church by its top level leadership. Which team are you really on? Do you want everyone to doubt that their leaders are following a path sustained by the Savior? Would you like people to think the worst of these apostles? That seems to be your goal. Seems awfully doublesided to me.
Mark, you've known me for 8 years now... what has been the one area where I've been consistent? Challenging and/or calling into question what I perceive to be wrong! I love this gospel with every fabric of my being and I love our Savior and the Lord just as much and view everything as 'is it right or is it wrong', especially when it comes to gospel principles/doctrines? If I see it as wrong, I'm gonna say something, end of story. Joseph Smith himself said he had organized a church where men and women were free to question and express concerns when they saw or heard actions/decisions coming from church leadership that were contrary to scripture and/or Christ's teachings. Are you aware that there is a set of instructions in the D&C (section 102) for the members for the removal of church leaders from office should they stray? I find that rather interesting, don't you? These scriptures pretty much invalidate the notion (and what other church leaders have said) that the brethren are incapable of wrongdoing and/or leading the church astray. So please stop with these attacks of lacking faith and 'how dare you' question church leaders - it's old and unfounded and my testimony as is strong in the gospel as its ever been!
So Col, what is your opinion on how the full-time GAs should be taken care of? I've referenced D&C 43 to show in our dispensation that it is appropriate.

How do you see it?
Not sure how you extrapolate specific instructions regarding JS to all future generations of 15's and 70's

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rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by rewcox »

ajax wrote:
rewcox wrote:
Col. Flagg wrote:
Mark wrote:

You are a hard one to understand son. First you say you are committed to the church and love serving in it with your callings etc but then you seem to turn around and gleefully cast aspersions on the men we sustain as Prophets/Seers/Revelators by pushing the agenda driven scenario that these men are not trustworthy or honest enough and dont have the integrity to reject this intimation of priestcraft being practiced in the LDS church by its top level leadership. Which team are you really on? Do you want everyone to doubt that their leaders are following a path sustained by the Savior? Would you like people to think the worst of these apostles? That seems to be your goal. Seems awfully doublesided to me.
Mark, you've known me for 8 years now... what has been the one area where I've been consistent? Challenging and/or calling into question what I perceive to be wrong! I love this gospel with every fabric of my being and I love our Savior and the Lord just as much and view everything as 'is it right or is it wrong', especially when it comes to gospel principles/doctrines? If I see it as wrong, I'm gonna say something, end of story. Joseph Smith himself said he had organized a church where men and women were free to question and express concerns when they saw or heard actions/decisions coming from church leadership that were contrary to scripture and/or Christ's teachings. Are you aware that there is a set of instructions in the D&C (section 102) for the members for the removal of church leaders from office should they stray? I find that rather interesting, don't you? These scriptures pretty much invalidate the notion (and what other church leaders have said) that the brethren are incapable of wrongdoing and/or leading the church astray. So please stop with these attacks of lacking faith and 'how dare you' question church leaders - it's old and unfounded and my testimony as is strong in the gospel as its ever been!
So Col, what is your opinion on how the full-time GAs should be taken care of? I've referenced D&C 43 to show in our dispensation that it is appropriate.

How do you see it?
Not sure how you extrapolate specific instructions regarding JS to all future generations of 15's and 70's
Ok Ajax, never ever use a scripture said to someone else, in your life.

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rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by rewcox »

Col. Flagg wrote:
rewcox wrote:
Col. Flagg wrote:
Mark wrote:

You are a hard one to understand son. First you say you are committed to the church and love serving in it with your callings etc but then you seem to turn around and gleefully cast aspersions on the men we sustain as Prophets/Seers/Revelators by pushing the agenda driven scenario that these men are not trustworthy or honest enough and dont have the integrity to reject this intimation of priestcraft being practiced in the LDS church by its top level leadership. Which team are you really on? Do you want everyone to doubt that their leaders are following a path sustained by the Savior? Would you like people to think the worst of these apostles? That seems to be your goal. Seems awfully doublesided to me.
Mark, you've known me for 8 years now... what has been the one area where I've been consistent? Challenging and/or calling into question what I perceive to be wrong! I love this gospel with every fabric of my being and I love our Savior and the Lord just as much and view everything as 'is it right or is it wrong', especially when it comes to gospel principles/doctrines? If I see it as wrong, I'm gonna say something, end of story. Joseph Smith himself said he had organized a church where men and women were free to question and express concerns when they saw or heard actions/decisions coming from church leadership that were contrary to scripture and/or Christ's teachings. Are you aware that there is a set of instructions in the D&C (section 102) for the members for the removal of church leaders from office should they stray? I find that rather interesting, don't you? These scriptures pretty much invalidate the notion (and what other church leaders have said) that the brethren are incapable of wrongdoing and/or leading the church astray. So please stop with these attacks of lacking faith and 'how dare you' question church leaders - it's old and unfounded and my testimony as is strong in the gospel as its ever been!
So Col, what is your opinion on how the full-time GAs should be taken care of? I've referenced D&C 43 to show in our dispensation that it is appropriate.

How do you see it?
It is my understanding that they are all given a church credit card (with no limit) with which to use when on official church business – I see no problem with them using a church-provided credit card for expenses such as meals, airfare, lodging, other travel expenses, etc., but to also provide them with a $120,000 salary is wrong, especially when in 1997 they removed themselves from the boards of the church’s businesses, thus truly having no justification for it.
Ok, that's a start. Anything else you want to add? Like have the members support them, etc.

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Separatist
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1150

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Separatist »

rewcox wrote:
ajax wrote:
rewcox wrote:
Col. Flagg wrote: Mark, you've known me for 8 years now... what has been the one area where I've been consistent? Challenging and/or calling into question what I perceive to be wrong! I love this gospel with every fabric of my being and I love our Savior and the Lord just as much and view everything as 'is it right or is it wrong', especially when it comes to gospel principles/doctrines? If I see it as wrong, I'm gonna say something, end of story. Joseph Smith himself said he had organized a church where men and women were free to question and express concerns when they saw or heard actions/decisions coming from church leadership that were contrary to scripture and/or Christ's teachings. Are you aware that there is a set of instructions in the D&C (section 102) for the members for the removal of church leaders from office should they stray? I find that rather interesting, don't you? These scriptures pretty much invalidate the notion (and what other church leaders have said) that the brethren are incapable of wrongdoing and/or leading the church astray. So please stop with these attacks of lacking faith and 'how dare you' question church leaders - it's old and unfounded and my testimony as is strong in the gospel as its ever been!
So Col, what is your opinion on how the full-time GAs should be taken care of? I've referenced D&C 43 to show in our dispensation that it is appropriate.

How do you see it?
Not sure how you extrapolate specific instructions regarding JS to all future generations of 15's and 70's
Ok Ajax, never ever use a scripture said to someone else, in your life.
Not as justification to get paid.

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rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by rewcox »

Separatist wrote:
rewcox wrote:
ajax wrote:
rewcox wrote:
So Col, what is your opinion on how the full-time GAs should be taken care of? I've referenced D&C 43 to show in our dispensation that it is appropriate.

How do you see it?
Not sure how you extrapolate specific instructions regarding JS to all future generations of 15's and 70's
Ok Ajax, never ever use a scripture said to someone else, in your life.
Not as justification to get paid.
And your quote from Alma to Korihor won't work either, it was directed to Korihor. Scratch the BOM and the D&C, well all scriptures. You can only use your Patriarchal Blessing.

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jbalm
The Third Comforter
Posts: 5348

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by jbalm »

Mark wrote:
jbalm wrote:
Mark wrote:"Yet LDS folks come all unglued when someone asks honest questions about their church."

Let me know when "honest" questions are being asked and I think you will find a different attitude from LDS folks who are active participants in the church. The questions I see on this form regarding the LDS faith are most often agenda driven diatribes dripping with cynicism and insults and innuendo and confirmation bias trying to paint the LDS church in the worst possible light. Everybody knows that questions formed in that way do not meet the standard of being "honest" questions. I have been around enough anti's who love to cast aspersions to know the difference.
Another dodge. I can't remember the last time you said anything of substance. All you ever do is attack the character of people you disagree with.

Did you find the question in the OP dishonest?


If so, why?

Sorry you feel that way bro. I know that you are estranged from the church. Your negative and demeaning attitudes about all things LDS come through loud and clear in most every post you make anymore. I dont pretend to know why the church has become such a negative to you in your life over the years. You and Obrien seem to delight in dishing out cynical barbs whenever there is any subject that can possibly portray a negative image of the church or its leadership. Clearly you have in some way been offended by someone or something. I hope you can find peace in your life without finding the need to put down the LDS church every chance you get. Cheers.
Still nothing substantive. And yet another attack on the character of someone you disagree with.

Oh well. Thanks for proving my point, at least.

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Col. Flagg
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 16961
Location: Utah County

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Col. Flagg »

rewcox wrote:
Col. Flagg wrote:
rewcox wrote:
Col. Flagg wrote: Mark, you've known me for 8 years now... what has been the one area where I've been consistent? Challenging and/or calling into question what I perceive to be wrong! I love this gospel with every fabric of my being and I love our Savior and the Lord just as much and view everything as 'is it right or is it wrong', especially when it comes to gospel principles/doctrines? If I see it as wrong, I'm gonna say something, end of story. Joseph Smith himself said he had organized a church where men and women were free to question and express concerns when they saw or heard actions/decisions coming from church leadership that were contrary to scripture and/or Christ's teachings. Are you aware that there is a set of instructions in the D&C (section 102) for the members for the removal of church leaders from office should they stray? I find that rather interesting, don't you? These scriptures pretty much invalidate the notion (and what other church leaders have said) that the brethren are incapable of wrongdoing and/or leading the church astray. So please stop with these attacks of lacking faith and 'how dare you' question church leaders - it's old and unfounded and my testimony as is strong in the gospel as its ever been!
So Col, what is your opinion on how the full-time GAs should be taken care of? I've referenced D&C 43 to show in our dispensation that it is appropriate.

How do you see it?
It is my understanding that they are all given a church credit card (with no limit) with which to use when on official church business – I see no problem with them using a church-provided credit card for expenses such as meals, airfare, lodging, other travel expenses, etc., but to also provide them with a $120,000 salary is wrong, especially when in 1997 they removed themselves from the boards of the church’s businesses, thus truly having no justification for it.
Ok, that's a start. Anything else you want to add? Like have the members support them, etc.
IMO, bring back the law of common consent and let the members of the church vote on whether or not the brethren should receive $120,000/year for their ‘service’ (see D&C sections 26 and 28) – this is perhaps one of the best examples of how we have strayed, when all financial activities are hidden from the membership while we indulge in Babylon by investing tithing, speculating in real estate, building for-profit businesses and then multi-billion dollar malls and million dollar condos with no accountability for these decisions to the membership.

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Amonhi »

Col. Flagg wrote:
Amonhi wrote:
Lizzy60 wrote:Amonhi ----- Announced in the Ensign 1996

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1996/04/news ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wow, I am so far behind the times.
Yikes... talk about a checkmate. :(
Happy to admit when I am wrong. :D

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Amonhi »

jbalm wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:
jbalm wrote:
Mark wrote:
This from the guy who no longer attends the LDS church and most likely doesn't pay a red cent of tithing or fast offerings to help the church anymore with anything. Go lecture your remnant folks with all your pious attitudes Tex. Your bias against all things LDS is deafening.. 8-|
When you can't refute the message, then, by all means, attack the messenger.

Actually, I don't understand why Remnant people continue to attack the LDS church for the way it is run. They have their own church now, they ought to worry about how it is run and stop spending their time criticizing and attacking another faith. And you critics need to not delude yourselves into thinking you can belong to two churches, because the fact is, you have to choose. If you are one of those criticizing the Prophet, Apostles and 70 in the LDS church for receiving a stipend, then you aren't a faithful believer, because in THIS church, we believe that the LORD heads the church and guides it through these men.

You got a problem with that? If so, then you'll need to deal with it in some other way than taking it out on those of us who do.

In the LDS church most callings are done without any compensation. Yes, we no longer send our missionaries out and expect them to live off the charity of the community at large. We also have such a large worldwide membership that we have some callings that are expected to be in the fulltime service of the church and they are given a stipend. If we didn't do that then only men of independent wealth or living off their relatives, could serve in these fulltime, lifetime callings. That's the way we do it now in the LDS church and if anyone doesn't like it, they don't have to pay tithing, fast offerings etc. and they can go join a church that better suits their needs. I don't think that's so hard to understand. They'd be best off to let the church go--Stop with the constant criticism and anger directed at MY CHURCH, for their own mental well-being.

Many of you on this forum are Remnant members and you hide it--so that you can pretend to be active believing LDS, WHEN YOU ARE NOT. Many of you long ago left the church and yet you present yourselves as faithful, active members, WHEN YOU ARE NOT. You think that in the guise of being LDS members you have the right to criticize, but you aren't being honest with us or yourselves. Personally I'm tired of the dishonesty. I know this is true because I actually do attend church and active(meaning those who can TRUTHFULLY answer the temple recommend questions or are working to be worthy of a recommend) members don't have a problem with these things.
I am not, nor have I ever been a "remnant person." Ask any of the remnant people. I never bought into it.

But I am appalled by the LDS hypocrisy. The church sends out around 80,000 kids at a time to knock on people's doors throughout the world and as them to question their current beliefs. Yet LDS folks come all unglued when someone asks honest questions about their church.

Like my son said, on his mission..."why does the Church expect everyone to be open minded about the Church, but expect Church members to be so closed minded about everything else?"

When missionaries are directed to knock only on hardcore LDS doors, then maybe I'll feel obligated to keep my thoughts to myself.
That last line was funny. Thanks,

Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Amonhi »

Finrock wrote:
Amonhi wrote:
rewcox wrote:If you complain/murmur about the church and leaders, you are not biased... :(

If you believe and have a testimony that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true and living church upon the earth, that Christ leads his Church, and that Christ selects His leaders and has given them the Priesthood and keys to operate the Church, then you are biased... :)

This is a murmuring/complaining thread, by the Reds who only want to complain. No one has responded to the questions I asked.

Finrock has an obsession about leaders being evil.

Amonhi has several different people who post for him. One Amonhi decided to send George to the telestial kingdom because George did not agree with Amonhi. It looks like the nicer Amonhi is in this thread, but still having issues on the truth.
When I said biased, I ment completely to the point that if you are for the church you can see no bad or if you are against the church you can see no good.

An honest person will see both good and bad in the church because both exist. A dishonest person will only see one or the other.

It is true that several people post for me.

Peace,
Amonhi
Amonhi,

What do you mean that "It is true that several people post for me?"

I understood it to mean that you had people on the forum who were speaking for you or defending you. For instance, I've been accused of being your "puppy" and in that way I might have been posting for you. Is that what you mean, or do you mean that there are several people who are using the Amonhi account and so behind the keyboard a different individual could be posting at any given time? Meaning, that Amonhi isn't just one person, but several people taking turns posting?

-Finrock
Sorry, I am falling far behind. I don't have time to post any more, but keep trying to... not a good combination as I miss significant parts of the thread or can't respond to them.

The answer is that both are true. Some people like you at times back me up and also some people at times use my user account to post their thoughts and participate on the threads. If I agree with what they want to say or ask, I have no issue with them using my account to discuss a topic or concept. It would be like your wife wanting to say something and you allowing her to use your account to do so, the differnce is that I have a number of close friends that such a libery might extend to.

The Lord let's anyone speak for him as long as he gives he spirit. I let anyone speak for me as long as I give my keyboard. ;) Finrock, much of what you have said on your posts is what I would have wanted to express but you were able to do it better. If you didn't have an account, I would have easily allowed you to write many posts in my name. And in many instances, your expressions of the concepts and topics were far more clear than I could have written myself.

I could say the same for many others on this forum. I can say the same of many others not on this forum.

Peace,
Amonhi

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rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by rewcox »

Amonhi wrote:
Finrock wrote:
Amonhi wrote:
rewcox wrote:If you complain/murmur about the church and leaders, you are not biased... :(

If you believe and have a testimony that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true and living church upon the earth, that Christ leads his Church, and that Christ selects His leaders and has given them the Priesthood and keys to operate the Church, then you are biased... :)

This is a murmuring/complaining thread, by the Reds who only want to complain. No one has responded to the questions I asked.

Finrock has an obsession about leaders being evil.

Amonhi has several different people who post for him. One Amonhi decided to send George to the telestial kingdom because George did not agree with Amonhi. It looks like the nicer Amonhi is in this thread, but still having issues on the truth.
When I said biased, I ment completely to the point that if you are for the church you can see no bad or if you are against the church you can see no good.

An honest person will see both good and bad in the church because both exist. A dishonest person will only see one or the other.

It is true that several people post for me.

Peace,
Amonhi
Amonhi,

What do you mean that "It is true that several people post for me?"

I understood it to mean that you had people on the forum who were speaking for you or defending you. For instance, I've been accused of being your "puppy" and in that way I might have been posting for you. Is that what you mean, or do you mean that there are several people who are using the Amonhi account and so behind the keyboard a different individual could be posting at any given time? Meaning, that Amonhi isn't just one person, but several people taking turns posting?

-Finrock
Sorry, I am falling far behind. I don't have time to post any more, but keep trying to... not a good combination as I miss significant parts of the thread or can't respond to them.

The answer is that both are true. Some people like you at times back me up and also some people at times use my user account to post their thoughts and participate on the threads. If I agree with what they want to say or ask, I have no issue with them using my account to discuss a topic or concept. It would be like your wife wanting to say something and you allowing her to use your account to do so, the differnce is that I have a number of close friends that such a libery might extend to.

The Lord let's anyone speak for him as long as he gives he spirit. I let anyone speak for me as long as I give my keyboard. ;) Finrock, much of what you have said on your posts is what I would have wanted to express but you were able to do it better. If you didn't have an account, I would have easily allowed you to write many posts in my name. And in many instances, your expressions of the concepts and topics were far more clear than I could have written myself.

I could say the same for many others on this forum. I can say the same of many others not on this forum.

Peace,
Amonhi
I believe you lose on this one Amonhies. I don't think it sits well with most all. Especially when you say you are COTFB, C&E, Celestial Kingdom. Deception doesn't fit in with those claims.

JohnnyL
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Posts: 9832

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by JohnnyL »

DC 43:13 And again, I say unto you, that if ye desire the mysteries of the kingdom, provide for him [Joseph Smith] food and raiment, and whatsoever thing he needeth to accomplish the work wherewith I have commanded him;

I've come across a few other verses like that in my DC reading, too.

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investigator
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Posts: 689

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by investigator »

JohnnyL wrote: April 12th, 2017, 8:27 am DC 43:13 And again, I say unto you, that if ye desire the mysteries of the kingdom, provide for him [Joseph Smith] food and raiment, and whatsoever thing he needeth to accomplish the work wherewith I have commanded him;

I've come across a few other verses like that in my DC reading, too.
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
Mosiah 18:26 And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God.
If our leaders want to get near to God and teach with power and authority from Him, they should abid by the precepts found in the Book of Mormon.

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9832

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by JohnnyL »

investigator wrote: April 13th, 2017, 4:05 am
JohnnyL wrote: April 12th, 2017, 8:27 am DC 43:13 And again, I say unto you, that if ye desire the mysteries of the kingdom, provide for him [Joseph Smith] food and raiment, and whatsoever thing he needeth to accomplish the work wherewith I have commanded him;

I've come across a few other verses like that in my DC reading, too.
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
Mosiah 18:26 And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God.
If our leaders want to get near to God and teach with power and authority from Him, they should abid by the precepts found in the Book of Mormon.
If you believe that revelation stopped after the Book of Mormon, I guess so.

By the way, here are a few more Book of Mormon verses:
2 Nephi 26:30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love. And except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.

Mosiah 18:27 And again Alma commanded that the people of the church should impart of their substance, every one according to that which he had; if he have more abundantly he should impart more abundantly; and of him that had but little, but little should be required; and to him that had not should be given.
28 And thus they should impart of their substance of their own free will and good desires towards God, and to those priests that stood in need, yea, and to every needy, naked soul.

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Finrock »

JohnnyL wrote: April 13th, 2017, 12:25 pm
investigator wrote: April 13th, 2017, 4:05 am
JohnnyL wrote: April 12th, 2017, 8:27 am DC 43:13 And again, I say unto you, that if ye desire the mysteries of the kingdom, provide for him [Joseph Smith] food and raiment, and whatsoever thing he needeth to accomplish the work wherewith I have commanded him;

I've come across a few other verses like that in my DC reading, too.
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
Mosiah 18:26 And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God.
If our leaders want to get near to God and teach with power and authority from Him, they should abid by the precepts found in the Book of Mormon.
If you believe that revelation stopped after the Book of Mormon, I guess so.

By the way, here are a few more Book of Mormon verses:
2 Nephi 26:30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love. And except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.

Mosiah 18:27 And again Alma commanded that the people of the church should impart of their substance, every one according to that which he had; if he have more abundantly he should impart more abundantly; and of him that had but little, but little should be required; and to him that had not should be given.
28 And thus they should impart of their substance of their own free will and good desires towards God, and to those priests that stood in need, yea, and to every needy, naked soul.
There are many laborers in Zion who are not leaders. Right now we have many laborers in Zion who are perishing or living in abject poverty and they are not being supported financially or being paid a stipend of any kind, yet they give their all to building up the kingdom of God.

The Book of Mormon scripture says "priest that stood in need" and then every needy naked soul. How many priests today are supported by the Church or receive pay? How about the rest of the needy naked souls?

Most of the Church leaders were doing quite well financially before becoming General Authorities. They wouldn't qualify as "Priests in need", yet they still receive pay and perks.

Those scriptures are not limited to just leaders. If those scriptures are to be applied, it should be applied as is written. They would apply to all that are needy and all laborers in Zion.

-Finrock

JohnnyL
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Posts: 9832

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by JohnnyL »

Finrock wrote: April 13th, 2017, 3:18 pm
JohnnyL wrote: April 13th, 2017, 12:25 pm
investigator wrote: April 13th, 2017, 4:05 am
JohnnyL wrote: April 12th, 2017, 8:27 am DC 43:13 And again, I say unto you, that if ye desire the mysteries of the kingdom, provide for him [Joseph Smith] food and raiment, and whatsoever thing he needeth to accomplish the work wherewith I have commanded him;

I've come across a few other verses like that in my DC reading, too.
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
Mosiah 18:26 And the priests were not to depend upon the people for their support; but for their labor they were to receive the grace of God, that they might wax strong in the Spirit, having the knowledge of God, that they might teach with power and authority from God.
If our leaders want to get near to God and teach with power and authority from Him, they should abid by the precepts found in the Book of Mormon.
If you believe that revelation stopped after the Book of Mormon, I guess so.

By the way, here are a few more Book of Mormon verses:
2 Nephi 26:30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love. And except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.

Mosiah 18:27 And again Alma commanded that the people of the church should impart of their substance, every one according to that which he had; if he have more abundantly he should impart more abundantly; and of him that had but little, but little should be required; and to him that had not should be given.
28 And thus they should impart of their substance of their own free will and good desires towards God, and to those priests that stood in need, yea, and to every needy, naked soul.
There are many laborers in Zion who are not leaders. Right now we have many laborers in Zion who are perishing or living in abject poverty and they are not being supported financially or being paid a stipend of any kind, yet they give their all to building up the kingdom of God.

The Book of Mormon scripture says "priest that stood in need" and then every needy naked soul. How many priests today are supported by the Church or receive pay? How about the rest of the needy naked souls?

Most of the Church leaders were doing quite well financially before becoming General Authorities. They wouldn't qualify as "Priests in need", yet they still receive pay and perks.

Those scriptures are not limited to just leaders. If those scriptures are to be applied, it should be applied as is written. They would apply to all that are needy and all laborers in Zion.

-Finrock
I believe the context of both scriptures is clear, however, that it means the leaders. When it was with a group, like with Alma's it was a higher law of consecration (though it doesn't "go by that name").

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Silver Pie
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Silver Pie »

JohnnyL wrote: April 13th, 2017, 12:25 pm 28 And thus they should impart of their substance of their own free will and good desires towards God, and to those priests that stood in need, yea, and to every needy, naked soul.
The key, I think is - if the priests are in need and incapable of providing for themselves. If they have sufficient for their needs, are capable of providing for themselves/family, or have a retirement that will provide sufficient for their needs, they should not be asking people for money (nor asking it of those who do NOT have sufficient for their needs, especially using the threat of damnation).

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Silver Pie
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Silver Pie »

Finrock wrote: April 13th, 2017, 3:18 pm Those scriptures are not limited to just leaders. If those scriptures are to be applied, it should be applied as is written. They would apply to all that are needy and all laborers in Zion.

-Finrock
I tend to agree. It says priests, not prophets, nor apostles. Anyone who is at least a priest.

JohnnyL
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Posts: 9832

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by JohnnyL »

Silver Pie wrote: April 14th, 2017, 6:57 pm
Finrock wrote: April 13th, 2017, 3:18 pm Those scriptures are not limited to just leaders. If those scriptures are to be applied, it should be applied as is written. They would apply to all that are needy and all laborers in Zion.

-Finrock
I tend to agree. It says priests, not prophets, nor apostles. Anyone who is at least a priest.
Priests back then were church leaders, not our current priests.

Found this:
http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/throug ... more-12291

An excerpt:
" Before discussing several important findings of Quinn’s Chapter 1, it is necessary to look at a critical aspect of methodology he constantly uses throughout the book’s narrative, footnotes, and appendices. In the same introductory paragraph setting out his objectives for Volume 3, Quinn describes this methodology:

To make these matters [allowances, tithing, expenditures, and all nominal values] more understandable to twenty first century readers, this volume often states what the equivalent of US dollars in the nineteenth century would be in terms of purchasing power in 2010, the final year of this book’s emphasis. For example, even trained historians might currently think that an annual income of $10,000 was modest for the year 1899, when it was actually equivalent to $271,000 in 2010. Rather than my own estimates of comparative worth, the financial equivalents are derived from the Consumer Price Index on the internet. (2)

Therefore, all dollar amounts in 2010 are stated both in terms of the value for that earlier year and also their worth in purchasing power in 2010 prices. Two comments:

First, a kudo: Quinn uses internet adjustments provided by a respected economic historian, Samuel H. Williamson.3 There is no better source, and Quinn deserves credit for recognizing and using that source.

Second, Quinn uses Williamson’s Consumer PRICE Index (CPI) exclusively to adjust all nominal values. Surely far better than no adjustment at all. However, one needs to understand what the CPI measures. His example of an 1899 income of $10,000 does not translate into an income of $271,000 in 2010. Instead, the CPI adjustment attempts to estimate what an income of $10,000 in 1899 could buy as a given bundle of consumer goods in 2010. For that reason, Williamson proposes seven different measures for comparing prices vs. wages vs. income over time. Thus, instead of comparing equivalent dollars needed to “purchase a bundle of consumer goods” between any two years, Quinn could have used different indices comparing wages or income over time. Comparing the General Authorities’ “living allowance” to [Page 124]Williamson’s Labor Value Index or Income Value Index might have given a more comparable measure of worth. On the other hand, it should be noted that by using the CPI, whether or not Quinn intended, he was consistently “understating” the differences between early income values compared to modern equivalents. And, since his purpose was to show how large the earlier living allowances were when compared to present values, underestimating was the proper procedure.

Quinn finds several surprises in the income “living allowances” from Chapter 1. First, compared to employment options outside of church service, Quinn appraises these allowances for those devoting full time to Church administration to be modest. He reports the following annual allowances for the president of the Church: $5,000 from 1877 to 1907 (10, 13); $7,800 from 1932 to 1946 (14); $6,000 in 1947 (14); $7,800 in 1951; $10,260 in 1973 (34); $89,325 in 1999; $116,400 in 2013; and $120,000 in 2014 (36).

Second, the living allowances for General Authorities have not kept pace with inflation over most decades nor during the entire 137 year period. Shortly after President Brigham Young’s death, the living allowance for the president, as reported above, was lowered to $5,000 per year and remained at that level until 1907. In real purchasing power dollars, the $5,000 allowance during the period 1877‒1907 would be worth more than the today’s allowance of $120,000. In between those endpoints, inflation was playing havoc with the real value of these allowances. The $7,800 in 1951 would buy about $65,000 of consumer goods in 2010 dollars, and the 1973 allowance of $10,000 only $50,377 (34). What these numbers show is the effect of having an administratively set salary that is not indexed to the rate of inflation. The allowance fell most rapidly in real value during the inflationary periods of 1907‒1917, after WW I, again after WW II, and during the inflation of the 1970s.

Third, Quinn finds it “stunning” that General Authorities’ allowances lag behind those of professional administrators working for the church — some earn as much as double the allowances of General Authorities (36). Quinn concludes:

There are no current measures for salaries of top administrators in the LDS bureaucracy at Salt Lake City, nor for CEOs of the church’s for-profit businesses. Still, the available data show that “salaries” of all general authorities in the twenty-first century could be less than half of what some rank-and-file employees received within the international church over which those “prophets, seers, and revelators“ presided. (37)

[Page 125]A comparison of the living allowance for the President and General Authorities of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to the salaries of executive officers of other churches was reported in the Chicago Tribune for 1992.4 The closest year for comparison is the living allowance for the LDS Church President for 1999 at $89,325. Thus, seven or eight years previous, compensation for the Bishop of the Episcopal Church was $160,000; President of the Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, $120,000; President of the United Church of Christ $89,000; while the United Methodist Church “has no official designated as a national leader, but each of the 50 regional bishops earns $70,000 and is provided housing.”5 Officials of the Evangelical Lutheran Church “would not reveal the exact salary” of their bishop, but stated that it was “between $61,200 and $105,500.” And leaders of the Presbyterian Church are “supposed to earn no more than four times what janitors and other workers at the bottom of the pay scale earn.”6

A similar comparison can be made with many of America’s charitable organizations.7 In 2014, when the LDS President was receiving $120,000 as a living allowance, Charity Watch, Charity Navigator, and Forbes announced that of the 100 largest charities, “18 reported paying some employees more than $1 million.”8 The highest salaried chief executive [Page 126]represented the Cleveland Clinic Foundation, who was paid $4,195,252. The annual salary of the CEO of the Metropolitan Museum of Art was $2,555,131, and the National President of the Boy Scouts of America $1,351,724 (2015).9 A similar list by a Christian blog site, Temple Stream, lists the CEO’s salary for the nation’s largest charity, United Way Worldwide, with annual donations of almost $3.708 billion, at $1,166,454 (2015).10

The conclusion? Many heads of America’s churches are paid comparable or higher compensation than that received by LDS Church leaders, and executives of America’s largest charitable organizations are paid 10 to 20 times the living allowance of the President of the LDS Church. It should be noted that the living allowance from the Church does not include all compensation, which might also include benefits, any allowances for housing or automobiles, and income from books or directorships. But the same is often true for reported income of other churches and salaries of America’s largest charities."

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LatterDayLizard
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by LatterDayLizard »

shadow wrote: January 15th, 2017, 2:29 pm
Obrien wrote:
rewcox wrote:More questions.

Do you believe the GA's should be like Bishops and continue to work but receive no living allowance?


If you agree with a living allowance, what do you think is a proper amount?
Perhaps our leaders should have faith that the Lord would look after their needs. This is the advice Jesus gave the disciples and apostles when they were sent out to minister.
Perhaps this is already happening but perhaps you disagree with how the Lord accomplishes it.
"Perhaps our leaders should have faith that the Lord would look after their needs. This is the advice Jesus gave the disciples and apostles when they were sent out to minister."

"Perhaps this is already happening but perhaps you disagree with how the Lord accomplishes it."

rewcox makes a great point here.

I understand why people are confused about this.

The fact that the church is using funds not given to them by its members to support general authorities is the reason the general authorities can truthfully say they are not a paid clergy. I am not supposed to give a person MY money to use their priesthood to bless me or to teach me about God. That's called priestcraft. Their services should be given to us freely, whether we are rich or poor. Salvation is not for sale.

With the way these stipends are set up, the members are not paying any general authority to fulfill their priesthood duties. The church has constructed a way to provide for them independently, enabling them to give of their time 24/7, which allows them to do more, travel farther, and reach more people than ever before. You could say the means have literally been provided by the Lord for His work to be hastened.

Also, consider this. Their lives, in effect, belong to the church. They can't skip general conference because they have a previous engagement. They won't tell the Lord - literally their boss - "sorry, I'm feeling under the weather so I can't fly to Zimbabwe today." They have to be physically unable to. Last November Elder Hales was literally on his death bed, yet he had prepared a conference talk and was ready to give it, if his body would let him. It didn't. He passed away between sessions, so Elder Anderson shared some of Elder Hales talk with us during his own closing remarks.

The fact is that these general authorities would continue to serve whether they were given a stipend or not. That stipend, unpaid for by any of us, allows them to do more than they would otherwise be able to do in the service of God. Having heard complaints in the past about the church being run by the rich, I would think this would be welcome as it opens up the calling of a general authority to anyone willing to serve, regardless of how wealthy they are.

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Craig Johnson
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Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by Craig Johnson »

And imagine how difficult it was before when those called to lifetime service did not have this blessing and they were not rich. I cherish these people (including current lifetime GA's-as well as all GA's), they are not just a cut above, they are the highest cut above for a mortal, in my opinion.

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BTH&T
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Posts: 906

Re: No Paid Ministry

Post by BTH&T »

I realize that this is an old thread.
That said it is comical to me the lengths people go to be bothered and upset over nothing.

So many threads are devoted to things that are spun to make The Church “look” bad.

In this case The Church does not pay The stipend. It is The Corp of the First Presidency that retains those getting stipends.

So ridiculous how upset many get over this and many other money issues (Non-issues)!

Oh yea of little faith!

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