You can't both be right? Right?

[investigator]

Amonhi, you claim to be one of the 144,000 and have your calling and election sure. But, I've come to the conclusion that you and the LDS church are at odds, so either you are 'true' (in other words, you are what you claim to be) or the church is 'true'(it is what it claims to be), but the fact is, you both can't be 'true' (what you claim to be). One of you is false.

Would you like to be more specific regarding the ways you think that I and the church are at odds?

Peace,
Amonhi

Here's some off the top of my head:

Your 'teaching' of how to make your calling and election itself is at odds. LDS don't teach that this is some kind of course you can take or writings you can read to fastract a member into seeing Christ. LDS believe this is something that comes with time, service, commitment, living a purified and sanctified life.

Your belief that once you receive your calling and election, you no longer need to follow the commandments (but can pick and choose what you want to follow), that you've transcended them, that they are for lesser individuals to still have to follow.

Your belief that you don't need to listen to or follow the counsel of church leaders--because you know more than them, because you've seen Christ. You are at odds most definitely in this.

Your perception of some Prophets, such as Brigham Young, is at odds with LDS teachings. You present things as coming from Brigham Young which the church denies.

Your belief that LDS Prophets such as Pres. Monson and our Apostles are not prophets, seers and revelators because (by your assumption) they haven't received their calling and election by seeing Christ. This is at odds as LDS believe they are all prophets, seers and revelators and they may or may not have seen Christ in the flesh (part of your belief that this is a requirement to receive the calling and election) which is at odds with LDS belief. LDS have an ordinance called the second endowment which I expect you reject and I'm certain Pres. Monson and the 12 have received.

If I had the time to search your posts, I'm sure I could find more.


And before you ask me to provide examples, I respectfully decline to. If you want examples, you seem to have the time now--go look at your own posts. I do not have the time to search your posts or give you any more ego strokes and attention.

Amonhi, I'm not sure what kind of person you are, but I like to think that you are simply deluded and not deceptive. I am not a 'hater' of you, but I am very wary of you and what you teach. Even your style of debate makes me wary of you. As George Clay said, you DO 'vomit scriptures' and then you include a bunch of round about thinking that makes a person feel lost in a maze of rhetoric. You also deflect from the actual charges by zeroing in on the weakest arguments of your opponents (yes, you see us as opponents) and the actual crux of what they've said is lost and/or glossed over. That's one reason I usually steer clear of you. I simply don't have the time or the talent for going up against someone with your rhetorical skills.

While you aren't a follower of Snufferism (why would someone who claims to be one of the '144,000' need to follow some other guy), you do teach doctrines which are similar and just as 'at odds' with LDS beliefs as he does(his teachings were at odds as he was exed for apostasy). We've seen many good members of the church lose their way following that man right out of the church. Since I have a testimony that the LDS church IS God's true church, this is a tragedy to me and I'd like to see no more fall away through dissenting away from the truth. I have no ill will toward you, but as long as you teach things that I believe are false, and I read them, then I feel I have just as much right to call you out on it as to praise you as your fans do.

Joseph Smith said this about making ones calling and election sure:

“After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure.” (Teachings, p. 150.)

This goes along with AI2.0 first point made here. Amonhi seems to be making this sacred experience a race for the swift who want this to happen now. Does the Lord really want us to look at this crowning doctrine based on The Fastest Way.. Pres Packer warned of trying to force spiritual experiences in our lives by our own timetables. He said that Satan thrives on deceiving those who try to force spiritual experiences. Elder Oaks said it this way:

"Next, the Lord declared that if our eye is single to His glory, our whole body will be filled with light and we will be able to comprehend all things. Then, His instruction continued with this great promise: “Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will” (verse 68; emphasis added).

The principle stated in that revelation applies to every communication from our Heavenly Father. We cannot force spiritual things."

Yet Amonhi comes on here and brags about the dozens upon dozens of people who he helped to obtain their calling and election be made sure by teaching us all His fastest method. That alone should send red light warning signals to anyone who cares to think this is the way the Lord operates in assuring His children of eternal glory. It is a breeding ground for false spirits to make hay. Frankly This whole situation of some anonymous " prophet" coming on an obscure Internet forum teaching and coaching anonymous people on how the Lord will reward the with exaltation in the fastest possible way is just a joke. Have people just thrown all discernment capabilities overboard? :-ss

The contrast between Amonhi’s teaching and the churches teaching on calling and election and second comforter is not in how it is taught. The difference is that Amonhi is teaching calling and election and second comforter and the church is not. As noted by Mark, Joseph Smith, THE PROPHET of this dispensation, taught both of these doctrines very prevalently. Mark quoted from the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (TPJS) part of the quote on calling and election and left out the part on the Second Comforter.

Where would one expect to find these teachings if the church were teaching them? I would suspect they would be in The Teaching of the Presidents of the Church, Joseph Smith. You know the priesthood manual. Supposedly it has Joseph Smiths most important teachings. What could be more important that making you calling and election sure and receiving the second comforter?

I challenge you to find either of those teachings in that book. They are not there. The brethren are selectively providing to the church what they think they need not actually what he taught.

Luke 11:52
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

[gclayjr]

investigator,

Where would one expect to find these teachings if the church were teaching them? I would suspect they would be in The Teaching of the Presidents of the Church, Joseph Smith. You know the priesthood manual. Supposedly it has Joseph Smiths most important teachings. What could be more important that making you calling and election sure and receiving the second comforter?

I challenge you to find either of those teachings in that book. They are not there. The brethren are selectively providing to the church what they think they need not actually what he taught.

There are actually other manuals in the Church other than just the Priesthood manual. So maybe if you looked just a little further, you would not slander the leaders by declaring that they do not teach about making your calling and election made sure.

For instance in the manual "Life and Teachings of Jesus and his Apostles", Chapter 51, "Partakers of the Davine Nature", it discusses this very topic.

Took me less than 30 seconds to find this on lds.org

In fact in part it says

Elder McConkie says of chapter one, “Nowhere else in ancient writ do we find the door so frankly opened to a knowledge of the course men must pursue to have their calling and election made sure.” (DNTC, 3:323.) It is clear from what Peter teaches that knowing about God and knowing God are not the same, and that a true knowledge of God requires that we become like him. Thus, the saints are challenged to become “partakers of the divine nature.” (2 Peter 1:4.)

and

As one acquires knowledge of Christ’s divine attributes and incorporates them into his own life, he makes his calling and election sure.

“None can comprehend the knowledge of God, of Christ, and of the gospel unless he himself possesses the attributes of godliness, for the knowledge of spiritual things comes only by revelation, and until a person gains godly attributes he cannot receive the Spirit from whom revelation comes.” (McConkie, DNTC, 3:354.) (The process of having one’s calling and election made sure is discussed in the Interpretive Commentary for 2 Peter 1:10.)

https://www.lds.org/manual/the-life-and ... e?lang=eng

Which seems a lot like what Mark was saying. I have read enough of Amonhi's rubbish to know that he follows a false God, and I have no desire to take his "course" in how to get your C&E made sure in 5 easy steps, or whatever, but if Mark is even close to representing him correctly, it is clear that he is not teaching what the Lord's true church clearly teaches, if you want, take a few minutes and check out!


Regards,

George Clay

[investigator]

George,
I am talking about a teaching that the Prophet of the Restoration taught prominently being left out of the book that supposedly contains his most important teachings applicable to us, not an obscure manual that never sees the light of day that no one ever uses. If that doesn't convince you, do a search of conference talks and see when the last time calling and election and/or second comforter was taught. These doctrines are not taught in the church. If Joseph thought they were important to teach why are they not taught today?

[eddie]

I'm fortunate, I associate with a congregation of people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Except for the youngest, they have been baptized and received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Those that lay on the hands have received the Holy Priesthood.

The people strive to live Christ's gospel and help and comfort each other. Some are leaders, both men and women, young and old. They give talks, teach and bear testimony. The Spirit is rich with them.

Some I know well, others a little, yet I know all their names. When they receive callings to serve, I sustain them. I don't chose or vote for them, yet I sustain them. It is a great blessing for me to associate with them.

Some people I know through the internet, most I don't know by name. I enjoy the edification sometimes. Like Jeremy's document on the temple, Finrock's background, a couple Obrien's stories, AI2.0 and iWriteStuff's comments, Sarah, George, Eddie, Mark and shadows faith. Some have interesting and thoughtful comments, like 5tev3, some like politics like larsenb and brianm. Some like visions and prepping like kirtlandrm and kurtthemormon. Some come and go, like beprepared, all leave their mark one way or another.

I know some because of the scriptures. Their stories and sacrifice are amazing. I know some because they continued the restoration and made it possible for me to know the Gospel.

I know One because He made all things possible.

I still don't like Trump.

Why you'd be almost perfect if you like Donald Trump. ;)

Great post, I very much appreciate those who speak truth here, and as George Clay said, even the untruths make my conviction stronger.

[gclayjr]

Investigator,

I am talking about a teaching that the Prophet of the Restoration taught prominently being left out of the book that supposedly contains his most important teachings applicable to us, not an obscure manual that never sees the light of day that no one ever uses. If that doesn't convince you, do a search of conference talks and see when the last time calling and election and/or second comforter was taught. These doctrines are not taught in the church. If Joseph thought they were important to teach why are they not taught today?

Just because they don't write it in the manual that you think they should, and they don't broadcast it in recent conference talks, doesn't mean that it isn't available for anybody interested in the topic. If you spent more time checking it out, rather than complaining about how far into the spotlight they put it, not only would you understand it better, but I think it might show why Amonhi's whole concept is wrong.

You don't get your C&E made sure by seeking to make your C&E made sure. You get your C&E made sure by living the teachings of Jesus Christ to the point you become LIKE Jesus Christ. If you understand that simple fact, then you would understand that the emphasis in both the Priesthood Manual, and conference talks is to teach us about Jesus Christ, and to exhort us to live like him.. If you do that then the C&E stuff will naturally follow!!

And that Learning about Christ and committing to live like him... That is the important message!, not the selfish pursuit of that glory you get by doing so!!

Regards,

George Clay

[investigator]

Investigator,

I am talking about a teaching that the Prophet of the Restoration taught prominently being left out of the book that supposedly contains his most important teachings applicable to us, not an obscure manual that never sees the light of day that no one ever uses. If that doesn't convince you, do a search of conference talks and see when the last time calling and election and/or second comforter was taught. These doctrines are not taught in the church. If Joseph thought they were important to teach why are they not taught today?

Just because they don't write it in the manual that you think they should, and they don't broadcast it in recent conference talks, doesn't mean that it isn't available for anybody interested in the topic. My point is they don't teach it. If you spent more time checking it out, You have no Idea how much time I have spent checking it out rather than complaining about how far into the spotlight they put it, not only would you understand it better, You have no knowledge of how well I understand it but I think it might show why Amonhi's whole concept is wrong. You have not proven Amonhi's concept wrong.

You don't get your C&E made sure by seeking to make your C&E made sure. Unless you have had your calling and election made sure, you should not presume to teach others on how to get it. You get your C&E made sure by living the teachings of Jesus Christ to the point you become LIKE Jesus Christ. If you understand that simple fact, then you would understand that the emphasis in both the Priesthood Manual, and conference talks is to teach us about Jesus Christ, and to exhort us to live like him.. If you do that then the C&E stuff will naturally follow!!

And that Learning about Christ and committing to live like him... That is the important message!, not the selfish pursuit of that glory you get by doing so!! Learning about Christ is and committing to live like him will not save you. You receive eternal life by KNOWING Christ not knowing about him.

JST Matt. 7:33 And then will I say, Ye never knew me depart from me, ye that work iniquity. God bless you brother George.

Regards,

George Clay

[gclayjr]

Iinvestigator,

Obviously, you are another of Amonhi's puppies,

You have not proven Amonhi's concept wrong.

….Unless you have had your calling and election made sure, you should not presume to teach others on how to get it

And this may be the key right here..

You receive eternal life by KNOWING Christ not knowing about him.

Trying to be snarky with word play... but it subtly reveals your falsehood

Obviously you must get to Know Christ... but how do you get to know him? I suppose that you believe that Amonhi will introduce you to him. I testify to you, that if Amonhi introduces you to someone, it ain't Christ. I tell you that you cannot know Christ without knowing about Christ...

Again it is by learning about him, and committing yourself to following his commandments and example, and then following though
that bit by bit you get to know him. There ain't no easy fast track to a special introduction.

However, You are convinced that you can get your special introduction. I guess you will never be patient enough to follow the Lord's true prophet, and his True church and do the hard work of learning about Christ and learning who he is and following his precepts along that long strait path to becoming like him. If so, you will never know him.

So why aren't you satisfied with simply following that guy Amonhi will introduce to you as Christ, and let us other fools be to follow the path to our Christ mapped out by our own prophets?

Regards,

George Clay

[investigator]

George said, I suppose that you believe that Amonhi will introduce you to him.

This is new. I have never heard anyone say anything about getting an introduction. This is the antithesis of how to "Come unto Chirst". Much more in line with the "Follow the Prophet" crowd. This is anti Christ. I don't trust any man to come between me and Christ. I will however "hearken to a true Prophet" who points me to Christ.

2 Nephi 4:34
O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

God Bless you Brother George

[AI2.0]

The obvious problem with any teaching or manual for receiving calling and election is that it can't be taught. It comes through faithful living, obedience to commandments, living worthily, loving and serving, and for many that's too hard, like dieters looking for a miracle weight loss pill, they want a short cut. Amonhi preaches a shortcut and so he's, to me, a snake oil salesman, selling a fantasy. If you want it spelled out in a manual by the church, you won't find it because it would be a sham too. Calling and election comes from god, in his own due time and it's not for us to lobby for it.It is a sacred thing between the individual and god.

[Mark]

Would you like to be more specific regarding the ways you think that I and the church are at odds?

Peace,
Amonhi

Here's some off the top of my head:

Your 'teaching' of how to make your calling and election itself is at odds. LDS don't teach that this is some kind of course you can take or writings you can read to fastract a member into seeing Christ. LDS believe this is something that comes with time, service, commitment, living a purified and sanctified life.

Your belief that once you receive your calling and election, you no longer need to follow the commandments (but can pick and choose what you want to follow), that you've transcended them, that they are for lesser individuals to still have to follow.

Your belief that you don't need to listen to or follow the counsel of church leaders--because you know more than them, because you've seen Christ. You are at odds most definitely in this.

Your perception of some Prophets, such as Brigham Young, is at odds with LDS teachings. You present things as coming from Brigham Young which the church denies.

Your belief that LDS Prophets such as Pres. Monson and our Apostles are not prophets, seers and revelators because (by your assumption) they haven't received their calling and election by seeing Christ. This is at odds as LDS believe they are all prophets, seers and revelators and they may or may not have seen Christ in the flesh (part of your belief that this is a requirement to receive the calling and election) which is at odds with LDS belief. LDS have an ordinance called the second endowment which I expect you reject and I'm certain Pres. Monson and the 12 have received.

If I had the time to search your posts, I'm sure I could find more.


And before you ask me to provide examples, I respectfully decline to. If you want examples, you seem to have the time now--go look at your own posts. I do not have the time to search your posts or give you any more ego strokes and attention.

Amonhi, I'm not sure what kind of person you are, but I like to think that you are simply deluded and not deceptive. I am not a 'hater' of you, but I am very wary of you and what you teach. Even your style of debate makes me wary of you. As George Clay said, you DO 'vomit scriptures' and then you include a bunch of round about thinking that makes a person feel lost in a maze of rhetoric. You also deflect from the actual charges by zeroing in on the weakest arguments of your opponents (yes, you see us as opponents) and the actual crux of what they've said is lost and/or glossed over. That's one reason I usually steer clear of you. I simply don't have the time or the talent for going up against someone with your rhetorical skills.

While you aren't a follower of Snufferism (why would someone who claims to be one of the '144,000' need to follow some other guy), you do teach doctrines which are similar and just as 'at odds' with LDS beliefs as he does(his teachings were at odds as he was exed for apostasy). We've seen many good members of the church lose their way following that man right out of the church. Since I have a testimony that the LDS church IS God's true church, this is a tragedy to me and I'd like to see no more fall away through dissenting away from the truth. I have no ill will toward you, but as long as you teach things that I believe are false, and I read them, then I feel I have just as much right to call you out on it as to praise you as your fans do.

Joseph Smith said this about making ones calling and election sure:

“After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure.” (Teachings, p. 150.)

This goes along with AI2.0 first point made here. Amonhi seems to be making this sacred experience a race for the swift who want this to happen now. Does the Lord really want us to look at this crowning doctrine based on The Fastest Way.. Pres Packer warned of trying to force spiritual experiences in our lives by our own timetables. He said that Satan thrives on deceiving those who try to force spiritual experiences. Elder Oaks said it this way:

"Next, the Lord declared that if our eye is single to His glory, our whole body will be filled with light and we will be able to comprehend all things. Then, His instruction continued with this great promise: “Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will” (verse 68; emphasis added).

The principle stated in that revelation applies to every communication from our Heavenly Father. We cannot force spiritual things."

Yet Amonhi comes on here and brags about the dozens upon dozens of people who he helped to obtain their calling and election be made sure by teaching us all His fastest method. That alone should send red light warning signals to anyone who cares to think this is the way the Lord operates in assuring His children of eternal glory. It is a breeding ground for false spirits to make hay. Frankly This whole situation of some anonymous " prophet" coming on an obscure Internet forum teaching and coaching anonymous people on how the Lord will reward the with exaltation in the fastest possible way is just a joke. Have people just thrown all discernment capabilities overboard? :-ss

The contrast between Amonhi’s teaching and the churches teaching on calling and election and second comforter is not in how it is taught. The difference is that Amonhi is teaching calling and election and second comforter and the church is not. As noted by Mark, Joseph Smith, THE PROPHET of this dispensation, taught both of these doctrines very prevalently. Mark quoted from the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (TPJS) part of the quote on calling and election and left out the part on the Second Comforter.

Where would one expect to find these teachings if the church were teaching them? I would suspect they would be in The Teaching of the Presidents of the Church, Joseph Smith. You know the priesthood manual. Supposedly it has Joseph Smiths most important teachings. What could be more important that making you calling and election sure and receiving the second comforter?

I challenge you to find either of those teachings in that book. They are not there. The brethren are selectively providing to the church what they think they need not actually what he taught.

Luke 11:52
Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

You would have been a perfect candidate for joining the TLC church investigator. Maybe you are already a member? Their missionaries taught calling and election and second comforter and multiple mortal probations and on and on day in and day out. They had notebooks upon notebooks full of materials on everything ever said about these subjects. Surely their church must have been inspired and set up by righteous servants right? WRONG!! It was full of fraud and wickedness. Just because they were teaching wonderful doctrines does not mean they were living it's righteous principles. They were deceived by the adversary! Their fruits were rotten to the core. False spirits presided over their gatherings. You need to understand Satans methods. The closer one comes to gaining greater light and knowledge the more deceptive Satan and his minions become.

I also see that you are adopting some of their methods as well in comparing the Brethren of the LDS faith with unrighteousness and manipulative enemies of Christ in his day. Good luck with that accusation. Someday it will bring you great sorrow as it did many of those who fell for false prophets like Harmston.

[investigator]

My mistake Mark was trusting in the arm of the flesh. I will not make that mistake again. Not for the likes of Harmston or any man. My trust is in the Lord.

[Amonhi]

Amonhi, you claim to be one of the 144,000 and have your calling and election sure. But, I've come to the conclusion that you and the LDS church are at odds, so either you are 'true' (in other words, you are what you claim to be) or the church is 'true'(it is what it claims to be), but the fact is, you both can't be 'true' (what you claim to be). One of you is false.

Would you like to be more specific regarding the ways you think that I and the church are at odds?

Peace,
Amonhi

Here's some off the top of my head:

Your 'teaching' of how to make your calling and election itself is at odds. LDS don't teach that this is some kind of course you can take or writings you can read to fastract a member into seeing Christ. LDS believe this is something that comes with time, service, commitment, living a purified and sanctified life.

Your belief that once you receive your calling and election, you no longer need to follow the commandments (but can pick and choose what you want to follow), that you've transcended them, that they are for lesser individuals to still have to follow.

Your belief that you don't need to listen to or follow the counsel of church leaders--because you know more than them, because you've seen Christ. You are at odds most definitely in this.

Your perception of some Prophets, such as Brigham Young, is at odds with LDS teachings. You present things as coming from Brigham Young which the church denies.

Your belief that LDS Prophets such as Pres. Monson and our Apostles are not prophets, seers and revelators because (by your assumption) they haven't received their calling and election by seeing Christ. This is at odds as LDS believe they are all prophets, seers and revelators and they may or may not have seen Christ in the flesh (part of your belief that this is a requirement to receive the calling and election) which is at odds with LDS belief. LDS have an ordinance called the second endowment which I expect you reject and I'm certain Pres. Monson and the 12 have received.

If I had the time to search your posts, I'm sure I could find more.

If you had time to search my posts you would find that about half or more of the above are incorrect and I don't accept them as my own beliefs.

And before you ask me to provide examples, I respectfully decline to. If you want examples, you seem to have the time now--go look at your own posts. I do not have the time to search your posts or give you any more ego strokes and attention.

for example in a recent thead, I provided my definition of a prophet that I got from Joseph Smith and the scriptures and stated clearly that by that definition Monson is a prophet. I also taught that we should all be prophets and speak for the Lord and used various scripture references that said exactly that.

I do not think that seeing Christ is a requirement for C&E. I had my C&E before I saw Christ. Most do.

I never said I don't follow the council of church leaders especially for the reason that I know more than they do. I listen 5o council and go by the spirit and my best understanding which may or may not agree with the leaders.

I think that each one of your statements above is an inaccurate if not flat wrong expression of my views. Either you haven't been reading my posts or I have not been clearlying expressing my views. But I deny all of the beliefs you have attributed to me above.

Another one. When you get the Holy Ghost then you aren’t under the law, you are under the direction of the spirit. You don't get to cheery pick the laws you want to keep, you do what is right as best you can. If the LDS church doesn't believe that, then they don't believe the scriptures that say exactly that. That's like saying the LDS Chutch is at odds with the scriptures.

I could correct each sentence you gave, but I don't have time. I will just say that based on false information, you have concluded to judge me and say I am at odds with the church.

Amonhi, I'm not sure what kind of person you are, but I like to think that you are simply deluded and not deceptive. I am not a 'hater' of you, but I am very wary of you and what you teach.

No doubt. I would. Challenge anyone who believed what you stated above too..

Even your style of debate makes me wary of you. As George Clay said, you DO 'vomit scriptures' and then you include a bunch of round about thinking that makes a person feel lost in a maze of rhetoric. You also deflect from the actual charges by zeroing in on the weakest arguments of your opponents (yes, you see us as opponents) and the actual crux of what they've said is lost and/or glossed over. That's one reason I usually steer clear of you. I simply don't have the time or the talent for going up against someone with your rhetorical skills.

I'll keep this in mind and see if I can improve my self.

While you aren't a follower of Snufferism (why would someone who claims to be one of the '144,000' need to follow some other guy), you do teach doctrines which are similar and just as 'at odds' with LDS beliefs as he does(his teachings were at odds as he was exed for apostasy). We've seen many good members of the church lose their way following that man right out of the church. Since I have a testimony that the LDS church IS God's true church, this is a tragedy to me and I'd like to see no more fall away through dissenting away from the truth. I have no ill will toward you, but as long as you teach things that I believe are false, and I read them, then I feel I have just as much right to call you out on it as to praise you as your fans do.

Call me out and do it with integrity like you did in this post. I am happy to address a real discussion that focused on problems rather than insults.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Here's some off the top of my head...

:ymhug:
Thank you AI2.0. While I think you are interpreting incorrectly, I appreciate your effort to highlight a few specific points of Amonhi's views that you believe are wrong. I think that is helpful for everyone who reads this thread.

I very much agree.

Thanks for your efforts toward discussion Jeremy.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Amonhi, you claim to be one of the 144,000 and have your calling and election sure. But, I've come to the conclusion that you and the LDS church are at odds, so either you are 'true' (in other words, you are what you claim to be) or the church is 'true'(it is what it claims to be), but the fact is, you both can't be 'true' (what you claim to be). One of you is false.

Would you like to be more specific regarding the ways you think that I and the church are at odds?

Peace,
Amonhi

Here's some off the top of my head:

Your 'teaching' of how to make your calling and election itself is at odds. LDS don't teach that this is some kind of course you can take or writings you can read to fastract a member into seeing Christ. LDS believe this is something that comes with time, service, commitment, living a purified and sanctified life.

Your belief that once you receive your calling and election, you no longer need to follow the commandments (but can pick and choose what you want to follow), that you've transcended them, that they are for lesser individuals to still have to follow.

Your belief that you don't need to listen to or follow the counsel of church leaders--because you know more than them, because you've seen Christ. You are at odds most definitely in this.

Your perception of some Prophets, such as Brigham Young, is at odds with LDS teachings. You present things as coming from Brigham Young which the church denies.

Your belief that LDS Prophets such as Pres. Monson and our Apostles are not prophets, seers and revelators because (by your assumption) they haven't received their calling and election by seeing Christ. This is at odds as LDS believe they are all prophets, seers and revelators and they may or may not have seen Christ in the flesh (part of your belief that this is a requirement to receive the calling and election) which is at odds with LDS belief. LDS have an ordinance called the second endowment which I expect you reject and I'm certain Pres. Monson and the 12 have received.

If I had the time to search your posts, I'm sure I could find more.


And before you ask me to provide examples, I respectfully decline to. If you want examples, you seem to have the time now--go look at your own posts. I do not have the time to search your posts or give you any more ego strokes and attention.

Amonhi, I'm not sure what kind of person you are, but I like to think that you are simply deluded and not deceptive. I am not a 'hater' of you, but I am very wary of you and what you teach. Even your style of debate makes me wary of you. As George Clay said, you DO 'vomit scriptures' and then you include a bunch of round about thinking that makes a person feel lost in a maze of rhetoric. You also deflect from the actual charges by zeroing in on the weakest arguments of your opponents (yes, you see us as opponents) and the actual crux of what they've said is lost and/or glossed over. That's one reason I usually steer clear of you. I simply don't have the time or the talent for going up against someone with your rhetorical skills.

While you aren't a follower of Snufferism (why would someone who claims to be one of the '144,000' need to follow some other guy), you do teach doctrines which are similar and just as 'at odds' with LDS beliefs as he does(his teachings were at odds as he was exed for apostasy). We've seen many good members of the church lose their way following that man right out of the church. Since I have a testimony that the LDS church IS God's true church, this is a tragedy to me and I'd like to see no more fall away through dissenting away from the truth. I have no ill will toward you, but as long as you teach things that I believe are false, and I read them, then I feel I have just as much right to call you out on it as to praise you as your fans do.

Joseph Smith said this about making ones calling and election sure:

“After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure.” (Teachings, p. 150.)

This goes along with AI2.0 first point made here. Amonhi seems to be making this sacred experience a race for the swift who want this to happen now. Does the Lord really want us to look at this crowning doctrine based on The Fastest Way.. Pres Packer warned of trying to force spiritual experiences in our lives by our own timetables. He said that Satan thrives on deceiving those who try to force spiritual experiences. Elder Oaks said it this way:

"Next, the Lord declared that if our eye is single to His glory, our whole body will be filled with light and we will be able to comprehend all things. Then, His instruction continued with this great promise: “Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will” (verse 68; emphasis added).

The principle stated in that revelation applies to every communication from our Heavenly Father. We cannot force spiritual things."

Yet Amonhi comes on here and brags about the dozens upon dozens of people who he helped to obtain their calling and election be made sure by teaching us all His fastest method. That alone should send red light warning signals to anyone who cares to think this is the way the Lord operates in assuring His children of eternal glory. It is a breeding ground for false spirits to make hay. Frankly This whole situation of some anonymous " prophet" coming on an obscure Internet forum teaching and coaching anonymous people on how the Lord will reward the with exaltation in the fastest possible way is just a joke. Have people just thrown all discernment capabilities overboard? :-ss

What makes you think I am supporting or encouragein people to force a blessing? Have you read the thread or just the title?

It is without a doubt the fastest way to make your calling and election sure. Not because you are forcing a blessing from God like Jacob did, but because you are actively moving in the right direction rather than sitting on your hands enduring to the end hoping that you having met all the unknown criteria excpet the wait criteria. Most members who even heard about the blessing enough to know that they want it think that by doing what they've been doing long enough maybe they'll get a new result but having no real clear direction at all. Many of thsee people die without the blessing.

If you read the process that I teach and endorse, you cannot say that there is any evil in it without saying that it is evil to pray and seek guide nice from God.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

I'm fortunate, I associate with a congregation of people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Except for the youngest, they have been baptized and received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. Those that lay on the hands have received the Holy Priesthood.

The people strive to live Christ's gospel and help and comfort each other. Some are leaders, both men and women, young and old. They give talks, teach and bear testimony. The Spirit is rich with them.

Some I know well, others a little, yet I know all their names. When they receive callings to serve, I sustain them. I don't chose or vote for them, yet I sustain them. It is a great blessing for me to associate with them.

Some people I know through the internet, most I don't know by name. I enjoy the edification sometimes. Like Jeremy's document on the temple, Finrock's background, a couple Obrien's stories, AI2.0 and iWriteStuff's comments, Sarah, George, Eddie, Mark and shadows faith. Some have interesting and thoughtful comments, like 5tev3, some like politics like larsenb and brianm. Some like visions and prepping like kirtlandrm and kurtthemormon. Some come and go, like beprepared, all leave their mark one way or another.

I know some because of the scriptures. Their stories and sacrifice are amazing. I know some because they continued the restoration and made it possible for me to know the Gospel.

I know One because He made all things possible.

I still don't like Trump.

You are fortunate.

May God continue to bless you.
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Nice commentary on a point Mark. Thank you.

Did you ever read the method you are referring to? It seems you have a problem with the title but do you have an issue with the method?

To answer your question brother I do take issue with the method that Amonhi preaches here. It to me is just a form of seeking for instant spiritual gratification. Like AI2.0 described it is trying to fast track oneself into seeing Christ and having ones exaltation guaranteed by our Lord.

By your reasoning, so is going to church reading the scriptures and praying and being a good person. Those are certainly a fast track to receiving blessings.

Have you read Peter's advice about what traits you need to work on and in what order so that you can quickly prepare for the blessing and his council to diligently, no with all diligence make your calling and election sure?

This is not consistent with what many Prophets and scripture have testified. Experiencing the baptism of fire and The Holy Ghost thru the sanctification process is the prerequisite step in moving forward in this process. Then when, as Joseph stated, The Lord has thoroughly proved that person to be willing to serve Him AT ALL HAZZARDS the crowning blessing and promise of this assurance of eternal glory comes in the Lords own timetable.

this doesn't disagree with the process recomended.

Amonhi's recommended method does not adhere to these principles. To me it More easily opens a person up for deceptive spirits to whisper false revelation to one who has not properly prepared themselves spiritually to receive this glorious promise in their own life .

are you saying that prayer opens a person to false spirits? Or are you saying that admitting that you lack wisdom and asking God for that wisdom through prayer with faith and the intention of talking to God and getting a response to your prayer opens a person up to false spirits? What are you really against?

This is exactly what happened to many who were influenced by the TLC Jim Harmston led movement that false spirits had a party conducting. I know this because I saw it happen and saw people get sucked in based initially on pursuing their calling and election to be made sure.

Oh, you are against seeking diligently to have your calling and election made sure. Anyone encouraging others to do this is immediately put on your bad fruit list...?

Calling and Election was a number 1 priority for these folks as well and they had a boatload of material on it that they were studying and advocating. Just remember that Satan is the great imitator and will use all kinds of tricks to imitate the real thing. I can tell you that many in the TLC group were having all kinds of spiritual manifestations. They were just not coming from the Lord. :-ss

So you tell people to be afraid of what exactly? How do you go about telling true spiritual experiences from false ones? What is your criteria?

What Amonhi should be admonishing all to do here is to sanctify themselves by living their sacred baptismal and temple covenants with exactness which will truly purify their hearts and then serve with all their hearts in the 4 fold mission of the church and do all that is necessary to have that new creature in Christ emerge totally from the fallen and natural man self we all struggle with. Those are the necessary initial steps that need our immediate attention.

YOU have the gall to claim that you know what people need to do better than God does and that 6ou can instruct a person better than God?

Let's say a person does everything you just outlined, but the have never heard the voice of God speak to them directly. Do you think after a life time of doing what people like you tell them to do, they will know God?

Instead he advocates setting this magical date and then using a series of questions asking the Lord if this crowning blessing and promise of having ones calling and election made sure has been granted to them. He is putting the cart before the horse if you ask me. To me it is a convuluted misunderstanding of the way the Lord operates.

Have you heard that many missionaries set dates? The idea is that when you set a date, like going to the temple, you can make arrangements and prepare and fast and do whatever you feel you need to do to prepare to approach the Lord. We set dates to attend the temple, to get married, to be baptized, etc. Date setting is not required. It just allows people to schedule sacred time to be uninterrupted by the world. There is no evil in setting dates and making preparations to meditate, pray, fast or do any good things. It isn't like a person is saying, "God, I want the blessing by Friday, you have 5 days to prepare to give it to me."

I really like what one of Internet buddies laronius stated on Amonhi's fastest way thread when he said:

"When talking about exaltation, we need to remember what exactly exaltation is. Essentially it means "like God." Therefore it is not merely a reward for good behavior but rather a condition we attain to with His help. So in this life we are in the process of becoming like Him. This requires thinking like him, feeling like him and doing what he does and would do in our circumstances. That is why works in addition to faith is so important because it is in living the gospel that we become like God. I think C&E is essentially one step in this process. It's not a reward but rather God saying in essence: "You have progressed sufficiently to enjoy my presence." And isn't that what life is about? So the fastest way to make one's calling and election sure, and I might add the ONLY way, is to live the gospel. That is what it was intended to do after all."

I really like that too. Great quote. It misses a point from D&C 76:50-70 But it is really good. Praying is part of the gospel. The fulness of the gospel is about talking to God for yourself and learning to be guided and directed by God personally. My method actually encourages people to go to God, this one is saying the same thing, but it is a bit ambiguous because like the doctrines of Christ, so many Mormons don't know what the gospel actually is.

That sure makes a boatload of sense to me. I do not feel the spirit confirming to me that Amonhi's guidelines are proper and correct. In fact just the opposite. Take this as you will. I strongly feel that Amonhi is being guided by false messengers unless he is just playing games here with naive trusting people. Either way it's just off for me. I reject it.

That's cool. Follow the direction God gives to you and if that is to not accept what I have to share, God bless you in your journey.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

investigator,

Where would one expect to find these teachings if the church were teaching them? I would suspect they would be in The Teaching of the Presidents of the Church, Joseph Smith. You know the priesthood manual. Supposedly it has Joseph Smiths most important teachings. What could be more important that making you calling and election sure and receiving the second comforter?

I challenge you to find either of those teachings in that book. They are not there. The brethren are selectively providing to the church what they think they need not actually what he taught.

There are actually other manuals in the Church other than just the Priesthood manual. So maybe if you looked just a little further, you would not slander the leaders by declaring that they do not teach about making your calling and election made sure.

For instance in the manual "Life and Teachings of Jesus and his Apostles", Chapter 51, "Partakers of the Davine Nature", it discusses this very topic.

Took me less than 30 seconds to find this on lds.org

In fact in part it says

Elder McConkie says of chapter one, “Nowhere else in ancient writ do we find the door so frankly opened to a knowledge of the course men must pursue to have their calling and election made sure.” (DNTC, 3:323.) It is clear from what Peter teaches that knowing about God and knowing God are not the same, and that a true knowledge of God requires that we become like him. Thus, the saints are challenged to become “partakers of the divine nature.” (2 Peter 1:4.)

and

As one acquires knowledge of Christ’s divine attributes and incorporates them into his own life, he makes his calling and election sure.

“None can comprehend the knowledge of God, of Christ, and of the gospel unless he himself possesses the attributes of godliness, for the knowledge of spiritual things comes only by revelation, and until a person gains godly attributes he cannot receive the Spirit from whom revelation comes.” (McConkie, DNTC, 3:354.) (The process of having one’s calling and election made sure is discussed in the Interpretive Commentary for 2 Peter 1:10.)

https://www.lds.org/manual/the-life-and ... e?lang=eng

Which seems a lot like what Mark was saying. I have read enough of Amonhi's rubbish to know that he follows a false God, and I have no desire to take his "course" in how to get your C&E made sure in 5 easy steps, or whatever, but if Mark is even close to representing him correctly, it is clear that he is not teaching what the Lord's true church clearly teaches, if you want, take a few minutes and check out!


Regards,

George Clay

Thankfully one does not require a course from me to obtain their C&E.

Peace and love and may God be with you in your journey George.

Amonhi

[Amonhi]

George,
I am talking about a teaching that the Prophet of the Restoration taught prominently being left out of the book that supposedly contains his most important teachings applicable to us, not an obscure manual that never sees the light of day that no one ever uses. If that doesn't convince you, do a search of conference talks and see when the last time calling and election and/or second comforter was taught. These doctrines are not taught in the church. If Joseph thought they were important to teach why are they not taught today?

I actually use that manual because it has obscure teaching that are never discussed in the church for example it has several pages that talk about how we sinned in the premortal life while in God's presence. Stuff like that that few Mormons know about.

Hmmmm... I guess I just made your point. It isn't discussed or mentioned in any of the manuals that go to the entire church especially the one about Joseph's core teachings to the Saints.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Finrock]

To answer your question brother I do take issue with the method that Amonhi preaches here. It to me is just a form of seeking for instant spiritual gratification.

You are using a phrase that I haven't heard before. I've heard of instant gratification in order to satisfy our carnal desires, but you seem to be flipping that idea on its end. I can understand that going for instant gratification in order to satisfy our carnal desires to be bad. So, what does it mean to seeking instant spiritual gratification in order to satisfy, what, your spiritual desires? If I'm understanding what you are saying, I guess I'm having a hard time seeing what is inherently wrong with seeking instant spiritual gratification?

I guess I'll ask more clearly: What does "seeking for instant spiritual gratification" mean and what is wrong with it in your view?

Like AI2.0 described it is trying to fast track oneself into seeing Christ and having ones exaltation guaranteed by our Lord.

This is not consistent with what many Prophets and scripture have testified. Experiencing the baptism of fire and The Holy Ghost thru the sanctification process is the prerequisite step in moving forward in this process. Then when, as Joseph stated, The Lord has thoroughly proved that person to be willing to serve Him AT ALL HAZZARDS the crowning blessing and promise of this assurance of eternal glory comes in the Lords own timetable.

Amonhi's recommended method does not adhere to these principles. To me it More easily opens a person up for deceptive spirits to whisper false revelation to one who has not properly prepared themselves spiritually to receive this glorious promise in their own life .

First, I think here you are focusing on the title of Amonhi's thread rather than the meat of that thread where Amonhi describes how you can get your calling and election made sure. That title, in my opinion, is being used by Amonhi mostly as an attention grabber. At the end of the day, though, that thread can be condensed in to this: Exercise faith in God and ask God to know something that you currently do not know.

What Amonhi should be admonishing all to do here is to sanctify themselves by living their sacred baptismal and temple covenants with exactness which will truly purify their hearts and then serve with all their hearts in the 4 fold mission of the church and do all that is necessary to have that new creature in Christ emerge totally from the fallen and natural man self we all struggle with. Those are the necessary initial steps that need our immediate attention.

Instead he advocates setting this magical date and then using a series of questions asking the Lord if this crowning blessing and promise of having ones calling and election made sure has been granted to them. He is putting the cart before the horse if you ask me. To me it is a convuluted misunderstanding of the way the Lord operates. It can lead an unprepared spiritually minded person to trying to force the Lords hand to satisfy ones own eternal spiritual desires which opens them up to hearing alternative voices. I really like what one of Internet buddies laronius stated on Amonhi's fastest way thread when he said:

Mark, we are incapable of sanctifying ourselves. If we could do that through our works, we would not need a Savior. The purpose of the baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost is to sanctify us. We are unprofitable servants and even if we serve God with our whole souls, all the days of our life, we will remain unprofitable. We are filthy and as dross. We are nothing. We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit. This happens when we exercise faith in Jesus Christ, and repent of our sins because we have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. When we approach God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then we will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. It is at this point that we are sanctified by the Spirit so that we can receive the Holy Ghost as our constant companion, but this is because of the mercy and the grace and the power of Jesus Christ. Not because of anything that we do or even can do. All we can do is have a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

This idea that we can obtain or attain some state of sanctification through our good works and by being diligent and constantly striving towards perfection is actually a dead end and will lead us down a path that ends in dead. We must rely wholly upon the merits and mercy and grace of Jesus Christ. When we have proven that we are willing to obey Him at all costs (and God knows the beginning from the end so it isn't about Him not knowing, but its about us recognizing who and what we are) then we will find our calling and election made sure. Just like anything else that is spiritual in nature and from God, it comes down to what we believe or what we choose to believe. The battlefield truly is the mind.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

To answer your question brother I do take issue with the method that Amonhi preaches here. It to me is just a form of seeking for instant spiritual gratification.

You are using a phrase that I haven't heard before. I've heard of instant gratification in order to satisfy our carnal desires, but you seem to be flipping that idea on its end. I can understand that going for instant gratification in order to satisfy our carnal desires to be bad. So, what does it mean to seeking instant spiritual gratification in order to satisfy, what, your spiritual desires? If I'm understanding what you are saying, I guess I'm having a hard time seeing what is inherently wrong with seeking instant spiritual gratification?

I guess I'll ask more clearly: What does "seeking for instant spiritual gratification" mean and what is wrong with it in your view?

Like AI2.0 described it is trying to fast track oneself into seeing Christ and having ones exaltation guaranteed by our Lord.

This is not consistent with what many Prophets and scripture have testified. Experiencing the baptism of fire and The Holy Ghost thru the sanctification process is the prerequisite step in moving forward in this process. Then when, as Joseph stated, The Lord has thoroughly proved that person to be willing to serve Him AT ALL HAZZARDS the crowning blessing and promise of this assurance of eternal glory comes in the Lords own timetable.

Amonhi's recommended method does not adhere to these principles. To me it More easily opens a person up for deceptive spirits to whisper false revelation to one who has not properly prepared themselves spiritually to receive this glorious promise in their own life .

First, I think here you are focusing on the title of Amonhi's thread rather than the meat of that thread where Amonhi describes how you can get your calling and election made sure. That title, in my opinion, is being used by Amonhi mostly as an attention grabber. At the end of the day, though, that thread can be condensed in to this: Exercise faith in God and ask God to know something that you currently do not know.

What Amonhi should be admonishing all to do here is to sanctify themselves by living their sacred baptismal and temple covenants with exactness which will truly purify their hearts and then serve with all their hearts in the 4 fold mission of the church and do all that is necessary to have that new creature in Christ emerge totally from the fallen and natural man self we all struggle with. Those are the necessary initial steps that need our immediate attention.

Instead he advocates setting this magical date and then using a series of questions asking the Lord if this crowning blessing and promise of having ones calling and election made sure has been granted to them. He is putting the cart before the horse if you ask me. To me it is a convuluted misunderstanding of the way the Lord operates. It can lead an unprepared spiritually minded person to trying to force the Lords hand to satisfy ones own eternal spiritual desires which opens them up to hearing alternative voices. I really like what one of Internet buddies laronius stated on Amonhi's fastest way thread when he said:

Mark, we are incapable of sanctifying ourselves. If we could do that through our works, we would not need a Savior. The purpose of the baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost is to sanctify us. We are unprofitable servants and even if we serve God with our whole souls, all the days of our life, we will remain unprofitable. We are filthy and as dross. We are nothing. We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit. This happens when we exercise faith in Jesus Christ, and repent of our sins because we have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. When we approach God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then we will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. It is at this point that we are sanctified by the Spirit so that we can receive the Holy Ghost as our constant companion, but this is because of the mercy and the grace and the power of Jesus Christ. Not because of anything that we do or even can do. All we can do is have a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

This idea that we can obtain or attain some state of sanctification through our good works and by being diligent and constantly striving towards perfection is actually a dead end and will lead us down a path that ends in dead. We must rely wholly upon the merits and mercy and grace of Jesus Christ. When we have proven that we are willing to obey Him at all costs (and God knows the beginning from the end so it isn't about Him not knowing, but its about us recognizing who and what we are) then we will find our calling and election made sure. Just like anything else that is spiritual in nature and from God, it comes down to what we believe or what we choose to believe. The battlefield truly is the mind.

-Finrock

For I am the Lord your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves,

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

I know that you ignore me because you think that I am just setting traps for you. You are wrong, although I actually don't care. I have given your comments much more objective thought and analysis, than you have mine. I actually do try to find out if there is any honest coherent thought (even if I don't agree with it) in your ramblings.

In that spirit, I have spent a number of minutes trying to decipher what you are saying here

When we have proven that we are willing to obey Him at all costs (and God knows the beginning from the end so it isn't about Him not knowing, but its about us recognizing who and what we are) then we will find our calling and election made sure.

without the parenthetical phrase it is:

When we have proven that we are willing to obey Him at all costs then we will find our calling and election made sure.

It looks a lot like what Mark, Rewcox, and I have been asserting all along!

.... unless

You have some secret shortcut that involves some secret thing other than the clear day by day learning about Jesus Christ, keeping his commandments, committing to follow him at all times, and actually walking the path of that commitment to get there.

or somehow, your parenthetical phrase somehow changes this clear simple, true idea.

So, unlike you, I do take the time to carefully weigh your words, and see if you actually have some useful information that I am not "getting". Unfortunately, when I try and weigh your words, they come out gobbledygook..

Sorry.. not trying to insult you, just reporting my observation.

Regards,

George Clay

[Rachael]

I havent read but 4 posts. This sounds so Jehovah-Wittness-y. They are the main denomitation/sect who harp on being one of the 144,000, imo.

Besides, if you had a patriarchal blessing that says you're an Ephraimite or a Danite, you're automatically excluded according to the book of Revelation, which is where the 144,000 doctrine comes from. Its ironic that we believe our church consists of mostly of Ephraimites, and we used to have self proclaimed Danites group too... Both of those tribes which were/are excluded in the 144,000 elect.

Rev7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."

No Ephraimites or Danites. So if you aren't an Ephramite or Danite, yet there is still another caveat. They are virgins. No wife/wives, nor posterity.

"Rev 14:1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins...

[gclayjr]

Racheal,

Interesting... Although Ephraim is 1/2 of the tribe of Joseph. However. So I guess that since most people from Western Europe are of Ephraim, they are claiming one of the 6,0000, instead of 144,000.

What do you bet that more that 6,000 people from the house of Ephraim claim to be of the 144,000.

Regards,

George Clay

[Rachael]

Racheal,

Interesting... Although Ephraim is 1/2 of the tribe of Joseph. However. So I guess that since most people from Western Europe are of Ephraim, they are claiming one of the 6,0000, instead of 144,000.

What do you bet that more that 6,000 people from the house of Ephraim claim to be of the 144,000.

Regards,

George Clay

I don't know gclay. I know a couple of people who were assigned in their Patriarchal blessing as being from the tribe of Joseph instead of Ephraim or Manasseh. One was a lady from Japan. Maybe it is some desendants of both brothers that intermingled so much, they lost their identity of being a Ephraimite or Manassehite, so they are just Josephites? Ephraimites and Danites set some pretty wicked examples in the OT.

Western Europe is mostly secular these days. But there is Gog and Magog statues in some prominent place in London, which is very creepy.

[rewcox]

As to the original post, D&C 43 has the answer:

1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.