You can't both be right? Right?

[Amonhi]

Amonhi, you claim to be one of the 144,000 and have your calling and election sure. But, I've come to the conclusion that you and the LDS church are at odds, so either you are 'true' (in other words, you are what you claim to be) or the church is 'true'(it is what it claims to be), but the fact is, you both can't be 'true' (what you claim to be). One of you is false.

Would you like to be more specific regarding the ways you think that I and the church are at odds?

Peace,
Amonhi

[rewcox]

Point #1, you can't hide behind an internet name.

10 point bonus question: Who is the current Prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints?

Correct, Thomas S. Monson.

20 point bonus question: What does the S stand for?

[Amonhi]

Point #1, you can't hide behind an internet name.

10 point bonus question: Who is the current Prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints?

Correct, Thomas S. Monson.

20 point bonus question: What does the S stand for?

I fail to see the relevance of your points. The church is true and I am false because I do not give my personal information out on the internet. Wow, amazing and brilliant conclusions. Based on that alone, I should turn in my temple recommend and give up my membership in the church. 8-|

Next...

[gclayjr]

Amonhi,

I do not think that you are not a special HP of 144K, simply because you will not reveal your true identity. I think you are a coward for hiding in the shadows while making such claims about your greatness in God's Kingdom. In that deleted thread, I did suggest to Mark, and Rewcox, that they had made their point and that repeating it would not be useful.

However, I do know that you are a fraud because you are just as noted by Elder Russel M Ballard, in his 1999 Conference talk:

Today we warn you that there are false prophets and false teachers arising; and if we are not careful, even those who are among the faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will fall victim to their deception.

President Joseph F. Smith gave wise and clear counsel that applies to us today:

“We can accept nothing as authoritative but that which comes directly through the appointed channel, the constituted organizations of the Priesthood, which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make known His mind and will to the world. … And the moment that individuals look to any other source, that moment they throw themselves open to the seductive influences of Satan, and render themselves liable to become servants of the devil; they lose sight of the true order through which the blessings of the Priesthood are to be enjoyed; they step outside of the pale of the kingdom of God, and are on dangerous ground. Whenever you see a man rise up claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church, independent of the order and channel of the Priesthood, you may set him down as an imposter” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 41–42).

When we think of false prophets and false teachers, we tend to think of those who espouse an obviously false doctrine or presume to have authority to teach the true gospel of Christ according to their own interpretation. We often assume that such individuals are associated with small radical groups on the fringes of society. However, I reiterate: there are false prophets and false teachers who have or at least claim to have membership in the Church. There are those who, without authority, claim Church endorsement to their products and practices. Beware of such.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng


However, if you do not believe that which is current doctrine in the Church of Jesus Christ, and you are following a different Master, THAT would be a good reason to:

I should turn in my temple recommend and give up my membership in the church. 8-|

At least then you would be honest to yourself.

Regards,

George Clay

[Juliet]

Whether or not someone is great in the Kingdom because of having their calling and election made sure is debatable. Obviously Jesus is great, and He should get all the credit for any good we do. If Amonhi gave out his real name, he would probably be scrutinized for every little thing he does. He shouldn't be held to a higher level of behavior because he has a relationship with the Savior. He should just be able to testify of the Savior's goodness which is a lovely gift. And everybody has a gift. It is a gift not an achievement.

As a flute performance major, I watched my teacher perform once. I couldn't help it, I scrutinized every single note she played. I couldn't help but be jealous because she was, according to her credetentials, better than me. It is sad I couldn't just enjoy the music.

[Finrock]

Whether or not someone is great in the Kingdom because of having their calling and election made sure is debatable. Obviously Jesus is great, and He should get all the credit for any good we do. If Amonhi gave out his real name, he would probably be scrutinized for every little thing he does. He shouldn't be held to a higher level of behavior because he has a relationship with the Savior. He should just be able to testify of the Savior's goodness which is a lovely gift. And everybody has a gift. It is a gift not an achievement.

As a flute performance major, I watched my teacher perform once. I couldn't help it, I scrutinized every single note she played. I couldn't help but be jealous because she was, according to her credetentials, better than me. It is sad I couldn't just enjoy the music.

It certainly feels like what is driving these angry responses to Amonhi is not this altruistic attempt to protect and defend truth or to protect the innocent from being gobbled up by the wolf, "Amonhi", but it certainly appears the real motivation for all of this is spiritual envy.

In my opinion those who are interacting with Amonhi in a blatantly unreasonable and uncharitable way are those who believe they are faithful Latter-day Saints, who can probably check off a lot of the items on the list of what they believe makes one a faithful, good, Mormon. I suspect that because they go to Church every Sunday, pay their tithing, faithfully fulfill their callings, listen and obey their leaders without question, do their genealogy, go to the temple frequently, have family home evenings, do their home teaching, etc. they feel that they are superior to Amonhi. Of course they aren't perfect, but they certainly feel they are more righteous than Amonhi who doesn't advocate the true blue Mormon game plan. Regardless of them being such faithful good Mormons, none of them have ever met Christ personally and none of them have had their calling and election made sure and they simply cannot accept that a person who isn't following the "faithful Mormon game plan" and striving to keep all the commandments like they are can possibly have seen Christ and can't possibly have their calling and election made sure, and most assuredly they aren't members of the 144,000. Because they haven't qualified for these blessings, in their minds anyways, they deny them on others. In my opinion, all of this negativity towards Amonhi comes down to jealously and envy and self-righteousness. Much like Laman and Lemuel refused to accept Nephi's standing with God, supposing that Nephi was trying to place himself at their head and further supposing that they were faithful and righteous in keeping God's commandments because they fulfilled the letter of the law.

Anyways, that is my sidebar psycho-analysis of the Amonhi "haters". So far I do not sense charity and compassion as the driving force behind their treatment and actions against Amonhi and that is a big indicator to me as to where their hearts are. But, I will forebear because I don't know their hearts with absolute certainty.

-Finrock

[Different]

Amonhi,

I do not think that you are not a special HP of 144K, simply because you will not reveal your true identity. I think you are a coward for hiding in the shadows while making such claims about your greatness in God's Kingdom. In that deleted thread, I did suggest to Mark, and Rewcox, that they had made their point and that repeating it would not be useful.

However, I do know that you are a fraud because you are just as noted by Elder Russel M Ballard, in his 1999 Conference talk:

Today we warn you that there are false prophets and false teachers arising; and if we are not careful, even those who are among the faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will fall victim to their deception.

President Joseph F. Smith gave wise and clear counsel that applies to us today:

“We can accept nothing as authoritative but that which comes directly through the appointed channel, the constituted organizations of the Priesthood, which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make known His mind and will to the world. … And the moment that individuals look to any other source, that moment they throw themselves open to the seductive influences of Satan, and render themselves liable to become servants of the devil; they lose sight of the true order through which the blessings of the Priesthood are to be enjoyed; they step outside of the pale of the kingdom of God, and are on dangerous ground. Whenever you see a man rise up claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church, independent of the order and channel of the Priesthood, you may set him down as an imposter” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 41–42).

When we think of false prophets and false teachers, we tend to think of those who espouse an obviously false doctrine or presume to have authority to teach the true gospel of Christ according to their own interpretation. We often assume that such individuals are associated with small radical groups on the fringes of society. However, I reiterate: there are false prophets and false teachers who have or at least claim to have membership in the Church. There are those who, without authority, claim Church endorsement to their products and practices. Beware of such.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... s?lang=eng


However, if you do not believe that which is current doctrine in the Church of Jesus Christ, and you are following a different Master, THAT would be a good reason to:

I should turn in my temple recommend and give up my membership in the church. 8-|

At least then you would be honest to yourself.

Regards,

George Clay

Agreed. Quite sad to see someone proclaim falsely they are one of the 144k.

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

It certainly feels like what is driving these angry responses to Amonhi is not this altruistic attempt to protect and defend truth or to protect the innocent from being gobbled up by the wolf, "Amonhi", but it certainly appears the real motivation for all of this is spiritual envy.

I'm sure it helps your smug self righteousness to continually refer to my responses as angry. They are not, no matter how superior that makes you feel. I am not angry with Amonhi, nor you. I pity you, and I don't care much one way or the other about Amonhi.

I am simply declaring boldly that he is a false prophet, and showing why. If you still want to follow him like a puppy, I guess I have done my best, and can stand before my maker, and say that as an Elder in Israel, I declared the TRUE truth against Amonhi's deception.. or maybe Amonhi's falling for the Satan's deception... my hands will be clean.

.. so no anger, just pity

Now another question. I have not read ALL of Amoni's rants, so I must have missed where he is "protecting the innocent from being gobbled up by the wolf".

Who are those innocent, and who is the wolf?

Regards,

George Clay

PS. I assume you reject Elder Russel M. Ballard's conference talk, because I can not see how you can in any way reconcile Amonhi's claim with what he said... although I would be amused to see if there is any way you can twist his position to appear to be not fulfilling that prophetic warning.

[Jeremy]

I wonder what motivates Amonhi to continue and participate in these "discussions". It seems to me, after observing for a few years now, that Amonhi's points are rarely discussed. Usually the discussion turns towards an attack on him rather than a trial of his beliefs.

All I can figure is that Amonhi must be harvesting enough through PM's and such to justify the lack of discussion on the points. And it is probably most helpful to have those who contend against him draw attention to his threads and bring in even more for the harvest.

Way to go defenders of the truth. :ymapplause:

I would suggest and encourage us to focus on the points that Amonhi is trying to share. Regardless of belief, let us weigh the points and not the messenger. I believe this will result in at least two beneficial things.

One - Those who disagree with Amonhi's ideas will be able to think things out and practice presenting their beliefs and ideas in a way sufficient to persuade. I would imagine this would be through a persona of humility and an invitation of the spirit.

Two - Based on observation, chances are the thread will die in a day or two. There have only been a few threads in which Amonhi's ideas were consistently contended against without an attack against him personally. I believe that minimizing the personal attacks and focusing on responses targeted at the points will result in significantly less posts and posts with significantly more value.

LDSFF might be a lot more pleasant if we tried this.

[Finrock]

Finrock,

It certainly feels like what is driving these angry responses to Amonhi is not this altruistic attempt to protect and defend truth or to protect the innocent from being gobbled up by the wolf, "Amonhi", but it certainly appears the real motivation for all of this is spiritual envy.

I'm sure it helps your smug self righteousness to continually refer to my responses as angry. They are not, no matter how superior that makes you feel. I am not angry with Amonhi, nor you. I pity you, and I don't care much one way or the other about Amonhi.

I am simply declaring boldly that he is a false prophet, and showing why. If you still want to follow him like a puppy, I guess I have done my best, and can stand before my maker, and say that as an Elder in Israel, I declared the TRUE truth against Amonhi's deception.. or maybe Amonhi's falling for the Satan's deception... my hands will be clean.

.. so no anger, just pity

Now another question. I have not read ALL of Amoni's rants, so I must have missed where he is "protecting the innocent from being gobbled up by the wolf".

Who are those innocent, and who is the wolf?

Regards,

George Clay

PS. I assume you reject Elder Russel M. Ballard's conference talk, because I can not see how you can in any way reconcile Amonhi's claim with what he said... although I would be amused to see if there is any way you can twist his position to appear to be not fulfilling that prophetic warning.

Okay. All I have to go on are the posts you've made. Here is the reason why it feels like to me that you are angry, upset, annoyed, bothered, or frustrated: In response to sincere and reasonable posts addressing your concerns, questions, etc. you have responded by calling me names, accusing me of having characteristics I do not posses (mostly, I do possess pride, so you were right on that one but I don't think it is at the level you were implying), and judging my character. This much I do know that if you were feeling love and charity towards me, you would not call me a puppy, call my well reasoned, sincere, and fair minded posts rants. From charity and love you would not attempt to ridicule and/or mock me, judge me as being evil, or repeatedly assert that I am smug, self-righteous and prideful. All of these things you have done because I have either disagreed with you, I have pointed out fallacious reasoning, and/or I have made claims that apparently you find offensive. So, if you were feeling charity and love towards me, you would not do such things and the tenor and tone of your responses and in fact our discussion would be much different. So, your responses seem like they are coming from a place of anger or annoyance or being upset, or bothered, or frustrated. That's how your communication is coming off. That is why I made the post I just did. But, as I said, I don't know your heart completely, so I am only saying what it is that it feels like to me.

At any point I'm willing to engage in a respectful dialogue where we exchange ideas, consider each others points, and even if we disagree, we can find common ground and at least understand one another. From my perspective, you are not interested in doing such a thing, but, it appears to me that you have justified in your mind that it is okay to attack me and my character. I can only guess that you have taken offense at me calling you out on your unethical tactics and less than kind responses. That is my guess because that is what it seems like. I have not attacked your character, mocked you, belittled you, etc., although I have attacked your reasoning and your arguments. I'm sure you can construe those as attacks against your character, but you would be wrong. There is a difference between pointing out flaws in reasoning versus attacking a person's character, name calling, judging, etc.

As far as Elder Ballard's quote: Seems obvious that in the last days there will be false prophets and false teachers. I agree that no one, other than the President of the Church (via the revealed process) can claim to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church. I agree that no one is authorized to claim Church endorsement to their products and practices independent of the authorized channels of the Church. Seems like common sense to me. Honestly, I don't see how it applies to the current situation. Who is claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church? Who is claiming Church endorsement to their products and practices?

That quote could apply to anyone, although I'm guessing you are implying that it clearly applies to Amonhi and/or to myself. That wouldn't surprise me, though, given the dislike you seemingly have for him or myself.

-Finrock

[Mark]

I wonder what motivates Amonhi to continue and participate in these "discussions". It seems to me, after observing for a few years now, that Amonhi's points are rarely discussed. Usually the discussion turns towards an attack on him rather than a trial of his beliefs.

All I can figure is that Amonhi must be harvesting enough through PM's and such to justify the lack of discussion on the points. And it is probably most helpful to have those who contend against him draw attention to his threads and bring in even more for the harvest.

Way to go defenders of the truth. :ymapplause:

I would suggest and encourage us to focus on the points that Amonhi is trying to share. Regardless of belief, let us weigh the points and not the messenger. I believe this will result in at least two beneficial things.

One - Those who disagree with Amonhi's ideas will be able to think things out and practice presenting their beliefs and ideas in a way sufficient to persuade. I would imagine this would be through a persona of humility and an invitation of the spirit.

Two - Based on observation, chances are the thread will die in a day or two. There have only been a few threads in which Amonhi's ideas were consistently contended against without an attack against him personally. I believe that minimizing the personal attacks and focusing on responses targeted at the points will result in significantly less posts and posts with significantly more value.

LDSFF might be a lot more pleasant if we tried this.

You seem to be missing the giant elephant in the room here Jeremy. Amonhi has made bold declarations that he is part of the 144,000 high priests ordained by angels and sent by the Lord to teach people the fastest way to make their calling and election made sure among other things by, as scripture clearly states of these 144,000, taking them to the temples of our God and facilitating them being sealed them up unto eternal life. His teachings and proclamations are intrinsiccally connected to his claims.

False Prophets like Jim Harmston made very similar claims and taught many of the same things that Amonhi teaches. Those Saints who believed his claims were sucked into his web of deceit and eventually found themselves conned and defrauded by that charlaton. Integrity matters. If you claim to be commissioned by God as a prophet to teach eternal principles and you are just conning everyone about your legitimacy I would say that lack of integrity does matter. Don't you?

There is a fellow on this site who claims to be our Lord and Savior. Does that little claim have any impact on what he is peddling here? I think it does. If someone has been deceived how can you really take much of any of his bold declarations serious?

I know that you and others here like Jules and many more in the past were very committed Snuffer advocates and Remnant disciples. I suspect that Amonhi is knee deep in that movement as well. I am sure that most of those who have listened to Amonhi and followed his advice and counsel and believed in his extraordinary claims are now alienated from the LDS church. Many I'm sure are part of the remnant movement. His influence if anything have caused people to draw themselves away from the LDS church. Many have put themselves directly at odds with their Priesthood authorities and have gone thru church disciplinary counsels just as Snuffer did. This being an LDS oriented board I think all that matters. If Amonhi is nothing more than a deceived wolf in sheeps clothes then that fact should be at least brought forward and substantiated. I have tried to do just that. If true many innocent people can jeopardize their futures by falling for his deceptive methods.

[rewcox]

When someone claims to have their C&E, that they are a prophet, that they have visited several times with Christ, then this is activated:

Words from Christ, Matthew 24;11
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

So when Amonhi (not his real name) gets irritated with George (his real name) and says the next time he talks with Christ and mentions George, that Christ will say he never knew him (George).

Amonhi also said:

I don't understand. We are talking about How God calls prophets, what God will and will not tell certain prophets and the role of prophets. I thought you were a prophet, but you just clearly stated multiple timeS that you are absolutely not a prophet.

If you are not a prophet, then you are not a qualified to teach on this OR ANY OTHER GOSPEL RELATED TOPIC. Either you don't know what a prophet is and because of your ignorance you are not qualified to teach, PREACH OR MINISTER TRUTH

I don't understand. We are talking about How God calls prophets, what God will and will not tell certain prophets and the role of prophets. I thought you were a prophet, but you just clearly stated multiple timeS that you are absolutely not a prophet.

If you are not a prophet, then you are not a qualified to teach on this OR ANY OTHER GOSPEL RELATED TOPIC. Either you don't know what a prophet is and because of your ignorance you are not qualified to teach, PREACH OR MINISTER TRUTH OR else you aren't ignorant you know what a prophet is but you are a false witness and a liar because you aren't a minister of Jesus Christ, or a teacher or preacher of righteousness and knowingly admit it. Either way, if you aren’t a prophet, then you aren’t qualified to teach about what prophets are, how they are called and what they can do let alone any other gospel topic.

When I get some time, I'll provide some material to discuss what a prophet is in the hopes that you are just ignorant on this topic.

Peace,
Amonhi

So yes, it is easy to see Amonhi is a false prophet. A TBM like George shouldn't be able to get under his skin.

[Jeremy]

If you claim to be commissioned by God as a prophet to teach eternal principles and you are just conning everyone about your legitimacy I would say that lack of integrity does matter. Don't you?

No, I do not. I don't place much value in an individuals proclamation of authority. A persons perceived authority does not validate or invalidate a point of doctrine for me. Similarly, a persons ability to spout true doctrine does not validate authority.

For instance, would you believe Denver Snuffer is a prophet if you heard him say "The Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth"? Of course not. That statement, if it is true, would not validate him being a prophet.

Lets say you heard Joseph declare himself a prophet. Would you believe him and follow his counsel because of declared authority or would something else persuade you?

I know that you and others here like Jules and many more in the past were very committed Snuffer advocates and Remnant disciples.

I want to ignore this statement because it is not relevant but I don't want my silence to be perceived as an agreement. So to clarify, I am not and never was a "Snuffer advocate", nor am I or was I a "Remnant disciple".

I try to accept truth, regardless of the messenger or the messenger's affiliations. This is why I value focusing on points of doctrine rather than an appeal to authority.

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

As far as Elder Ballard's quote: Seems obvious that in the last days there will be false prophets and false teachers. I agree that no one, other than the President of the Church (via the revealed process) can claim to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church. I agree that no one is authorized to claim Church endorsement to their products and practices independent of the authorized channels of the Church. Seems like common sense to me. Honestly, I don't see how it applies to the current situation. Who is claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church? Who is claiming Church endorsement to their products and practices?

That quote could apply to anyone, although I'm guessing you are implying that it clearly applies to Amonhi and/or to myself. That wouldn't surprise me, though, given the dislike you seemingly have for him or myself.

I cannot quote Ahmoni as to specifically what specific revelation he has claimed, partially because the thread in which this discussion started has been removed, and partially because Amonhi says so may self conflicting things that it is a bit hard to "pin him down".

He did tell me that he accepted that only the current prophet could receive "revelation" as to where to build the next temple or who to call for Bishop (Although I would have thought that that came under the pervue of the Stake president), but he clearly said, that anything else, including any revelation pertaining to the Saints in general, including revelation of eternal truths not previously not revealed to the saints is open to anybody whom God decides to call.

In fact I never knew anything about Amonhi, or his thoughts prior to his "jumping" on me when I posted that an easy way to tell that a prophet is a false prophet is if he broadcasts any "revelations" pertaining to the whole church or world of any new eternal truths not previously revealed. I said that only the Lords anointed prophet would broadcast such a revelation. I further stated that a righteous person could RECEIVE such a revelation, but it would be only for his person and family.

Amonhi (and I think you ) went through rant after rant after rant, trying to defend against a false accusation that I was saying that unless you were the Prophet to the Church, you could not receive any revelation at all, including whether the Gospel is true, or if you were a Bishop what is necessary for a ward. I rejected this over. and over, and over, and then Amonhi would return to making those same false assertion about me. That led to an effort to describe the meaning of the word STEWARDSHIP, and me explaining to him the concept of "Straw Man" arguments. He would always return to vomiting scriptures and quotes saying that a man must be a "prophet" to testify about almost anything, and I would return to reminding him that I agreed with that, and that it neither supported his contention that anybody could be called today to prophesy about anything...except those relatively administrative things nor refuted what I said, nor that I was wrong in saying that you could identify a false prophet, because he claims to be able to receive new revelations pertaining to the Church and World, then broadcasts these revelations.

I don't see how you can read that talk and conclude that a man is only a false prophet if he steps up and tells the Church where to build a new temple, or who to call as a new Bishop. If that is how you read it, then you DO have the same reading comprehension problems as Amonhi.

Regards,

Geroge Clay

[Finrock]

Finrock,

As far as Elder Ballard's quote: Seems obvious that in the last days there will be false prophets and false teachers. I agree that no one, other than the President of the Church (via the revealed process) can claim to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church. I agree that no one is authorized to claim Church endorsement to their products and practices independent of the authorized channels of the Church. Seems like common sense to me. Honestly, I don't see how it applies to the current situation. Who is claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church? Who is claiming Church endorsement to their products and practices?

That quote could apply to anyone, although I'm guessing you are implying that it clearly applies to Amonhi and/or to myself. That wouldn't surprise me, though, given the dislike you seemingly have for him or myself.

I cannot quote Ahmoni as to specifically what specific revelation he has claimed, partially because the thread in which this discussion started has been removed, and partially because Amonhi says so may self conflicting things that it is a bit hard to "pin him down".

He did tell me that he accepted that only the current prophet could receive "revelation" as to where to build the next temple or who to call for Bishop (Although I would have thought that that came under the pervue of the Stake president), but he clearly said, that anything else, including any revelation pertaining to the Saints in general, including revelation of eternal truths not previously not revealed to the saints is open to anybody whom God decides to call.

In fact I never knew anything about Amonhi, or his thoughts prior to his "jumping" on me when I posted that an easy way to tell that a prophet is a false prophet is if he broadcasts any "revelations" pertaining to the whole church or world of any new eternal truths not previously revealed. I said that only the Lords anointed prophet would broadcast such a revelation. I further stated that a righteous person could RECEIVE such a revelation, but it would be only for his person and family.

Amonhi (and I think you ) went through rant after rant after rant, trying to defend against a false accusation that I was saying that unless you were the Prophet to the Church, you could not receive any revelation at all, including whether the Gospel is true, or if you were a Bishop what is necessary for a ward. I rejected this over. and over, and over, and then Amonhi would return to making those same false assertion about me. That led to an effort to describe the meaning of the word STEWARDSHIP, and me explaining to him the concept of "Straw Man" arguments. He would always return to vomiting scriptures and quotes saying that a man must be a "prophet" to testify about almost anything, and I would return to reminding him that I agreed with that, and that it neither supported his contention that anybody could be called today to prophesy about anything...except those relatively administrative things nor refuted what I said, nor that I was wrong in saying that you could identify a false prophet, because he claims to be able to receive new revelations pertaining to the Church and World, then broadcasts these revelations.

I don't see how you can read that talk and conclude that a man is only a false prophet if he steps up and tells the Church where to build a new temple, or who to call as a new Bishop. If that is how you read it, then you DO have the same reading comprehension problems as Amonhi.

Regards,

Geroge Clay

Yeah, there is a distinction between a prophet and the President of the Church. All can be prophets and a prophet is authorized to speak whatever words the Spirit puts in to his mouth. I recognize this is a new concept to many Mormons because most Mormons conflate the word and meaning of a prophet and believe a prophet to be something that a prophet is not. A good portion of Mormons believe that authority to speak for God comes from a position or a title. A good portion of Mormons do not know, recognize, and/or believe that the Holy Ghost authorizes one to speak for God, regardless of their title or position. The Spirit is what gives any prophet their authority to speak for God. A person may have the title "Prophet" and they may be recognized as a "Prophet" by the Church, just as our Apostles are recognized and sustained as prophets, but unless these individuals have the Holy Ghost and are speaking by that power, they are not acting as prophets and they are not authorized to speak for God, regardless of the fact that they are set apart and sustained as such by the general membership of the Church.

Further, the function, duties, and roles of a prophet are not well understood. I use to believe much like you did and much like other Mormons do who are having such heartburn with what Amonhi is claiming or what I am claiming in this situation. And, by the way, I don't believe everything Amonhi says, but if the Spirit witnesses to me of something that Amonhi does say, then I am obligated and delighted to accept it and believe it. The key here and the thing that I want to stress the most is that we, Mormons, and all people, really, we need to learn to hear and recognize the voice of God, which voice is Spirit. We need to put less emphasis on titles and positions and more emphasis on listening to the Spirit. If we believe and accept something because it has been spoken by an authority figure that we respect, then we are believing and accepting it for the wrong reasons. There is a place for this type of belief, but we must move beyond just accepting and believing words because someone is higher in the hierarchy than we are. We must learn to know how the Spirit speaks and listen to that voice, because that is the voice of God, and when a person is speaking by that power, by the Holy Ghost, they are speaking for God AND GOD CAN SPEAK THROUGH MANY PEOPLE, POSITIONS, TITLES, PLACES, AND SITUATIONS. God does not just speak through the leaders of the LDS Church. If that is the only place where we believe God may speak to us, then we will most certainly miss out on many revelations and opportunities to advance and grow in the gospel.

God may very well reveal something to a person who is not the President of the Church and it might be something new that the President of the Church does not know. God is not restricted in His actions and any person who exercises faith in Jesus Christ and is humble, meek, submissive, and seeks after the mysteries of God can have them revealed to them. They may not speak and declare such revelations as binding for the Church or they may not teach them as being officially endorsed by the Church, but they may speak them and reveal them as they are directed by the Holy Ghost, because it is the Holy Ghost that authorizes and empowers any person who can claim to be a prophet.

Now, whether you believe this or not, is up to you. But everything that I am saying is well founded in scripture and is supported by currently accepted doctrine. Calling me names, ridiculing me, accusing me, and judging me does nothing to refute these things. If you really wanted to help others avoid being deceived by me, if it is your contention that I am being deceitful and you feel obligated to protect others from my deceit, it would be in your best interest to refute the premises of my position or to somehow explain to me why my understanding and interpretation of what the scriptures say that support my position is wrong, misunderstood, or somehow fallacious. That would be an enjoyable discussion because then at that point there is a greater likelihood that I could learn something from you and if I am in error, then I am of the disposition that I want to be corrected. I am actually inviting you or anyone to correct me. If you, through persuasion, through the Spirit, or through a well reasoned response can demonstrate to me that I am in error, then I will immediately repent and change to believing and living the truth.

I am interested in truth. I am on the side of truth. I want to live according to truth. I recognize my weakness. I recognize that I may not have full comprehension of all of the things or even of most things.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Yea, and I guess Russel M. Ballard, and Joseph F. Smith didn't figure it out either

We can accept nothing as authoritative but that which comes directly through the appointed channel, the constituted organizations of the Priesthood, which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make known His mind and will to the world. … And the moment that individuals look to any other source, that moment they throw themselves open to the seductive influences of Satan, and render themselves liable to become servants of the devil; they lose sight of the true order through which the blessings of the Priesthood are to be enjoyed; they step outside of the pale of the kingdom of God, and are on dangerous ground. Whenever you see a man rise up claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church, independent of the order and channel of the Priesthood, you may set him down as an imposter” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 41–42).

Specifically:

Whenever you see a man rise up claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church, independent of the order and channel of the Priesthood, you may set him down as an imposter” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 41–42).

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Finrock,

Yea, and I guess Russel M. Ballard, and Joseph F. Smith didn't figure it out either

We can accept nothing as authoritative but that which comes directly through the appointed channel, the constituted organizations of the Priesthood, which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make known His mind and will to the world. … And the moment that individuals look to any other source, that moment they throw themselves open to the seductive influences of Satan, and render themselves liable to become servants of the devil; they lose sight of the true order through which the blessings of the Priesthood are to be enjoyed; they step outside of the pale of the kingdom of God, and are on dangerous ground. Whenever you see a man rise up claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church, independent of the order and channel of the Priesthood, you may set him down as an imposter” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 41–42).

Regards,

George Clay

That quote doesn't mean what you think it means, but, okay. If nothing else, just remember that the Spirit is what gives the prophet authority and power. Without the Spirit, they are just a man, like you and I. We are all mortals here on earth. None of us are superior or more special than the other. God sends prophets to people who are unwilling to listen to Him directly. Its a great blessing to have prophets and whenever a prophet is speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost, we better listen and obey, because the Holy Ghost is the voice of God...meaning, when the Spirit speaks, God speaks.

So, you like where you are at, and that is fine. Not my place to judge.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

.

God may very well reveal something to a person who is not the President of the Church and it might be something new that the President of the Church does not know. God is not restricted in His actions and any person who exercises faith in Jesus Christ and is humble, meek, submissive, and seeks after the mysteries of God can have them revealed to them. They may not speak and declare such revelations as binding for the Church or they may not teach them as being officially endorsed by the Church, but they may speak them and reveal them as they are directed by the Holy Ghost, because it is the Holy Ghost that authorizes and empowers any person who can claim to be a prophet.

Now, whether you believe this or not, is up to you. But everything that I am saying is well founded in scripture and is supported by currently accepted doctrine. Calling me names, ridiculing me, accusing me, and judging me does nothing to refute these things. If you really wanted to help others avoid being deceived by me, if it is your contention that I am being deceitful and you feel obligated to protect others from my deceit, it would be in your best interest to refute the premises of my position or to somehow explain to me why my understanding and interpretation of what the scriptures say that support my position is wrong, misunderstood, or somehow fallacious. That would be an enjoyable discussion because then at that point there is a greater likelihood that I could learn something from you and if I am in error, then I am of the disposition that I want to be corrected. I am actually inviting you or anyone to correct me. If you, through persuasion, through the Spirit, or through a well reasoned response can demonstrate to me that I am in error, then I will immediately repent and change to believing and living the truth.

I am interested in truth. I am on the side of truth. I want to live according to truth. I recognize my weakness. I recognize that I may not have full comprehension of all of the things or even of most things.

-Finrock

This is where you make the mistake. You give a generalized thought that if a person has the Spirit, then they can act as a prophet. You even blast a bunch of scriptures to back yourself up. Amonhi has many posts that are TL;DR.

You say you have the Spirit, and it is truth. But maybe George or I don't have the Spirit, so we don't have the truth.

"We've got the Spirit, how about you!" Ever heard that at football games?

Christ told us to look at the fruit.

So when you say Amonhi is proclaiming truth, we look at the fruit. Telling George that Christ will say he never knew him is certainly bad fruit. Telling George he was headed to the Telestial kingdom, more bad fruit. Saying Satan get behind me, more bad fruit. Arrogance and pride in reality.

George rattled Amonhi, so he next started a thread like anti-mormons do about things Brigham Young said. Interesting jump don't you think? More bad fruit.

[Jeremy]

Christ told us to look at the fruit.

What is the fruit?

Telling George that Christ will say he never knew him is certainly bad fruit.

I don't know if Amonhi said that or not but I don't think saying such a thing constitutes bad fruit.

I think bad fruit is when an individual bids you partake of an idea, principle, counsel, doctrine, etc and it is harmful and separates you from God rather than reinforcing your relationship with God.

[rewcox]

Christ told us to look at the fruit.

What is the fruit?

Telling George that Christ will say he never knew him is certainly bad fruit.

I don't know if Amonhi said that or not but I don't think saying such a thing constitutes bad fruit.

I think bad fruit is when an individual bids you partake of an idea, principle, counsel, doctrine, etc and it is harmful and separates you from God rather than reinforcing your relationship with God.

It certainly is if you claim to meet with Jesus all the time. Moroni said something about charity I think. And Amonhi's doctrine is harmful, unless you're trying to leave the church, Christ's church.

[Jeremy]

And Amonhi's doctrine is harmful, unless you're trying to leave the church, Christ's church.

Lets focus on this part. What doctrine is harmful? What doctrine is wrong? Why is it wrong?

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Pres Ballard Said

Whenever you see a man rise up claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church, independent of the order and channel of the Priesthood, you may set him down as an imposter” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 41–42).

You Said:

That quote doesn't mean what you think it means

It sure looks like a very clear straightforward English sentence to me. Doesn't look like any subtlety here. But Ok, I'm willing to be enlightened. You and Amonhi, are always making such broad statements with their innuendo, about how dense us TBMs are by not being able to really see what the spirit really is trying to say. Please parse out that sentence, so that I can understand what it REALLY means, and how that means that Amonhi, CAN be a prophet to the church and world, and pronounce prophecies about us.

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Christ told us to look at the fruit.

What is the fruit?

Telling George that Christ will say he never knew him is certainly bad fruit.

I don't know if Amonhi said that or not but I don't think saying such a thing constitutes bad fruit.

I think bad fruit is when an individual bids you partake of an idea, principle, counsel, doctrine, etc and it is harmful and separates you from God rather than reinforcing your relationship with God.

It certainly is if you claim to meet with Jesus all the time. Moroni said something about charity I think. And Amonhi's doctrine is harmful, unless you're trying to leave the church, Christ's church.

rewcox,

You keep making false accusations and judgments against Amonhi. He hasn't done any of the things you've accused him of. Its a rhetorical tactic to try to silence your opponent. It unethical to do that.

Demonstrate, in full context, and fairly, where Amonhi has acted in the way you say. I will believe you if you can make your point using the principles of intellectual honesty, empathy, courage, and humility as opposed to the childish tactics you keep using. I call it the common internet speech.

Treat Amonhi fairly. Treat him as if he were your brother that you love with all your heart. Make sure you are honest in all that you say about him.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Finrock,

Pres Ballard Said

Whenever you see a man rise up claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church, independent of the order and channel of the Priesthood, you may set him down as an imposter” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 41–42).

You Said:

That quote doesn't mean what you think it means

It sure looks like a very clear straightforward English sentence to me. Doesn't look like any subtlety here. But Ok, I'm willing to be enlightened. You and Amonhi, are always making such broad statements with their innuendo, about how dense us TBMs are by not being able to really see what the spirit really is trying to say. Please parse out that sentence, so that I can understand what it REALLY means, and how that means that Amonhi, CAN be a prophet to the church and world, and pronounce prophecies about us.

Regards,

George Clay

Same, here George, look at what you just wrote to me. You have assigned all of these negative traits to me, unfairly, and then expect that there will be some dialogue? Seriously, drop the attitude, and lets communicate in a Christ-like way. Demonstrate intellectual integrity, empathy, courage, and humility and make your point that way. If you can take my best argument and then demonstrate that I err using the principles I've outlined, then you will have done something amazing. Right now, this is just common internet speech. It's no convincing, it isn't edifying, it doesn't do anything but perpetuate contention.

-Finrock

[Sarah]

It would take some time to go through all of Amonhi's threads and point our all the damaging teachings, but there is no doubt he has preached doctrines that go against the Church's. The message that is most damaging is that the physical ordinances performed within the Church are not necessary, that the only thing that matters is that you get these spiritual type of ordinances from Heavenly Messengers. He frequently quotes sec. 132, yet it says in there that only one on the earth at a time holds the keys to this sealing power, and that would imply that these ordinances need to be performed under a certain order of priesthood authority. How could this be if one can receive all these spiritual ordinances straight from messengers. The messenger gives the keys and then the keys are here to administer the ordinances. On his forum Elliason, he made the comment that a man and woman having sex before their official marriage would be okay if they were spiritually sealed. How could this be? This is not the Lord's way.

All I know is that for at least the third time, I have been attacked by evil spirits after debating him in a thread, and it happened the other night after I made multiple comments in that deleted thread. I have been lax in asking for protection, usually I ask to be protected every night. But in my mind this was no coincidence.