When you know something, you know it. If you learned that 2 + 2 = 4 and someone said that 2 + 2 = 5 or any other number than 4, you would recognize it right off and be able to correct them. It is that simple. Jesus Christ personally explained the atonement to me and others who are Elliaison Contributors. It is so simple and perfect and flawless and completely misunderstood by the world, even the LDS Church members and leaders in general. It isn't based on the concept of an eye for an eye. Christ isn't the whipping boy.Mark wrote:Amonhi wrote:I didn't read this entirely, but it appears that Joseph Fielding Smith is teaching based on a false understanding of the atonement. Eye for an eye. Punishment for sin.
If a person commits the unpardonable sin of murder after having received the light, there is no forgiveness for them, not through the blood of Christ and not through their own blood. No forgiveness at all.
In addition, a person who HAS come to the point of being beyond the reaches of the Atonement of Christ must suffer for their own sins, all of them, not just the major or grievous ones like murder or sexual. All of them. And not by killing themselves.
The concept of blood atonement is not correct. Even as taught by Joseph Fielding Smith in these quotes or Brigham Young in the Blood Atonement sermon. They were trying to understand the concepts without having a proper knowledge of the Atonement of Christ and how it forgives sins.26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.
27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. - D&C 132
In addition, a person does not reach beyond the atonement simply because they made covenants in the temple. Even when the blood oaths were made, it was a blood oath made regarding revealing the NAME, Sign AND Token all at the same time. A person can give the sign and token as long as they do not reveal the name at the same time. That is what we covenanted to do. An example of this is given in the Endowment when Adam is speaking with Peter and Adam says what is this and Peter says I can't tell you the name, but this is the sign...
Peace,
Amonhi
Who made you the source of all truth when it comes to eternal doctrines of the gospel Amonhi? I know that Finrock seems to think that all you say here is infallible and 100% gospel truth but frankly you seem awfully presumptuous about your knowledge of spiritual things. Why do you think that you know exactly how the Lords atonement will effect every person in every circumstance? Do you really think you are that all knowing? You talk like it's a given that Joseph Fielding Smith is totally mistaken in his thoughts here about the atonement ( even though you admit to not even reading all those thoughts) and that you know all that the Lord will or won't require of every person in every circumstance. Ever considered that you might be the one who doesn't totally understand every ramification and consequence of every sin and circumstance? You are a very confident person I will give you that. Just consider that you might not KNOW as much as you THINK you know. Before correcting the Prophets on doctrine maybe you should realize that it might just be YOU who is mistaken in your VERY limited understanding of how the Lord works and what He will require of all His children in dealing with serious sin and transgression.
The revelation of the atonement as taught includes exactly why how and what the atonement can cover, when it stops covering us and why and many other details. It explains the atonement clearly. This revelation to the world will not come through the LDS Prophet. It will be revealed by Elliaison to the world along with a number of other revelations.
You can think what you want about that, but it is clear that Joseph Fielding Smith viewed the spilling of blood as having a magical or special ability to forgive sin where as other options like hanging didn't.
Joseph Fielding Smith preached a version of Blood Atonement. My comments in blue.
Funny... I remember Judas hanging himself, not cutting or shooting or doing any number of things to have spilt his blood...Are you aware that there are certain sins that man may commit for which the atoning blood of Christ does not avail? Do you not know, too, that this doctrine is taught in the Book of Mormon?
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TRUE DOCTRINE OF BLOOD ATONEMENT. Just a word or two now, on the subject of blood atonement. What is that doctrine? (He's calling it a doctrine. It is not one of Christ's doctrines given when Christ said here are my doctrines and if anyone teaches more or less than this and calls it my doctrine, they cometh of evil. 3Ne. 11:40)
Unadulterated, if you please, laying aside the pernicious insinuations and lying charges that have so often been made, it is simply this: Through the atonement of Christ all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Salvation is twofold: General-that which comes to all men irrespective of a belief (in this life) in Christ-and, Individual-that which man merits through his own acts through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.
But man may commit certain grievous sins-according to his light and knowledge-that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved he must make sacrifice of his own life to atone-so far as in his power lies-for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail.
(Instance 1 - this shows that he views the atonement incorrectly)
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ANCIENT MEN SLAIN TO ATONE FOR SINS. Do you want a few references of where men were righteously slain to atone for their sins? What about the death of Nehor? Of Zemnarihah and his followers? What about Er and Onan, whom the Lord slew? Of Nadab and Abihu? And the death of Achan?
Were not these righteously slain to atone for their sins? And it was of this class of cases that President Young referred in his discourse you misquote. He tells us so, in the same discourse in the portion which you did not quote. It is:
"Now take the wicked, and I can refer you to where the Lord had to slay every soul of the Israelites that went out of Egypt except Caleb and Joshua. He slew them by the hand of their enemies, by the plague and by the sword. Why? Because he loved them and promised Abraham he would save them."
ATONEMENT AND SINS UNTO DEATH. Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf. (Instance 2 - He is speaking as if the blood forgave sin.) This is scriptural doctrine, and is taught in all the standard works of the Church. The doctrine was established in the beginning, that "Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed; for man shall not shed the blood of man. For a commandment I give, that every man's brother shall preserve the life of man, for in mine own image have I made man."
This was the law among the Nephites: "Wo unto the murderer who deliberately killeth, for he shall die."
John says: "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that ye shall pray for it."
UNIVERSAL PRACTICE OF BLOOD ATONEMENT. Every nation since the world began has practiced blood atonement, at least in part, as that doctrine is based upon the scriptures. And men for certain crimes have had to atone as far as they could for their sins wherein they have placed themselves beyond the redeeming power of the blood of Christ. (Instance 3 - The blood is not what redeems.)
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LAW OF CAPITAL PUNISHMENT. In pursuance of and in harmony with this scriptural doctrine, which has been the righteous law from the days of Adam to the present time, the founders of Utah incorporated in the laws of the Territory provisions for the capital punishment of those who wilfully shed the blood of their fellow men. This law, which is now the law of the State, granted unto the condemned murderer the privilege of choosing for himself whether he die by hanging, or whether he be shot, and thus have his blood shed in harmony with the law of God; (He seems to indicate that if the man hangs, then his blood is not shed and so he does not get forgiven, but if he is shot, his blood is spilled and the man might be forgiven. Blood spilling has nothing to do with the atonement the way he is discribing.) and thus atone, so far as it is in his power to atone, for the death of his victim. Almost without exception the condemned party chooses the latter death.
This is by the authority of the law of the land, not that of the Church. This law was placed on the statutes through the efforts of the Mormon legislators, and grants to the accused the right of jury trial. It is from this that the vile charge, which you are pleased to repeat, has been maliciously misconstrued by the enemies of the Church, who prefer to believe a lie. When men accuse the Church of practicing "Blood Atonement" on those who deny the faith, or, for that matter, on any living creature, they know that they bear false witness, and they shall stand condemned before the judgment seat of God.
Peace,Matthew 27:5
5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
Amonhi