Making Your Calling and Election Sure

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kirtland r.m.
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Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by kirtland r.m. »

The Holy Spirit of Promise
Joseph Smith defined the principle of "mak[ing your] calling and election sure" in a 27 June 1839 sermon. This was to be accomplished, he said, after a lifetime of service and devotion, by being "sealed up" to exaltation while yet living.
(Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols., ed. B. H. Roberts, 2d ed. rev. (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1973), 3:379-81 (hereafter HC). The original source is Willard Richards's Pocket Companion, "The Doctrine of Election," published in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, eds., The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph (Provo, UT: Brigham Young University Religious Studies Center, 1980), 4-6. A brief discussion of this doctrine can be found in Roy W. Doxey, "Accepted of the Lord: The Doctrine of Making Your Calling and Election Sure," Ensign 6 (July 1976)https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/acce ... e?lang=eng: 50-53; a more in-depth discussion is Hyrum L. Andrus, Principles of Perfection (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1970), 331-400.)

This concept was based on 2 Peter 1:10-11: "Wherefore . . . brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fail: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (see also v. 19 and Eph. 1:13-14).
This sermon was additionally important because Smith not only tied calling and election to sealing theology but also to the "second comforter" mentioned in John 14:26. According to Smith the second comforter was a personal manifestation of Jesus Christ. These ideas were also tied to the concept of personal revelation and the fact that the twelve apostles and all Mormons could and should follow Smith's steps and "become perfect in Jesus Christ." http://ancient-wisdom-lds-temple.blogspot.com/

brianj
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by brianj »

This is purely semantic, but I have difficulty with the phrase make/making your calling and election sure. We can't make anything sure, only the Lord can do so.I strongly desire to have my calling and election made sure, and I hope that I am worthy of that blessing while in mortality.

2EstablishZion
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by 2EstablishZion »

It is semantic - because the Lord is no respecter of persons, everyone has the equal opportunity of having their calling and election made sure. It is true that YOU can't do it, however, YOU are the determining factor of whether it happens or not. It is like salvation or any other principle, we can't do it alone, but we determine whether it gets done or not.

Amonhi
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Posts: 4650

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Amonhi »

kirtland r.m. wrote:The Holy Spirit of Promise
Joseph Smith defined the principle of "mak[ing your] calling and election sure" in a 27 June 1839 sermon. This was to be accomplished, he said, after a lifetime of service and devotion, by being "sealed up" to exaltation while yet living.
(Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 vols., ed. B. H. Roberts, 2d ed. rev. (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1973), 3:379-81 (hereafter HC). The original source is Willard Richards's Pocket Companion, "The Doctrine of Election," published in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, eds., The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph (Provo, UT: Brigham Young University Religious Studies Center, 1980), 4-6. A brief discussion of this doctrine can be found in Roy W. Doxey, "Accepted of the Lord: The Doctrine of Making Your Calling and Election Sure," Ensign 6 (July 1976)https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/acce ... e?lang=eng: 50-53; a more in-depth discussion is Hyrum L. Andrus, Principles of Perfection (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1970), 331-400.)

This concept was based on 2 Peter 1:10-11: "Wherefore . . . brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fail: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (see also v. 19 and Eph. 1:13-14).
This sermon was additionally important because Smith not only tied calling and election to sealing theology but also to the "second comforter" mentioned in John 14:26. According to Smith the second comforter was a personal manifestation of Jesus Christ. These ideas were also tied to the concept of personal revelation and the fact that the twelve apostles and all Mormons could and should follow Smith's steps and "become perfect in Jesus Christ." http://ancient-wisdom-lds-temple.blogspot.com/
That's a great quote. I wanted to point out that the part where it says, "after a lifetime of service and devotion" as if it were a criteria is kind of misleading. It makes it sound like you have to be old to get your C&E. I know people who received their promise and the second comforter when they were serving missions as young men. Joseph Smith had it when he was 27 years old, (D&C 88:2-5). For him, that was a lifetime of service. For the missionary, 20 years or less if you don't count the 8 years before the age of accountability, and the fact that he was actually converted while serving a mission... :-?

But my point being that There are some Lamonhi's and there are many who live their entire lives and die without the blessing. Many of those who live and die without it are good people who were simply enduring to the end. You know some of them I am sure, we all do.

What is the difference between those who do and those who do not receive the blessing? :-?

I recommend that you take a look at the thread, "The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure". Over 200 people have made their calling and election sure as a result of applying the information in that thread. It details exactly how it happens as taught by a President of the church who uses multiple ancient and modern examples which include who was there, how it was received, where they were and the very method the blessing was given. If you want to receive and recognize the blessing for yourself, these examples are priceless.

Peace,
Amonhi

DesertWonderer
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by DesertWonderer »

Amonhi wrote:
I recommend that you take a look at the thread, "The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure". Over 200 people have made their calling and election sure as a result of applying the information in that thread.
=)) =)) =))

Sorry I just couldn't help myself.

Amonhi
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Posts: 4650

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Amonhi »

DesertWonderer wrote:
Amonhi wrote:
I recommend that you take a look at the thread, "The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure". Over 200 people have made their calling and election sure as a result of applying the information in that thread.
=)) =)) =))

Sorry I just couldn't help myself.
Understandable.

This claim was based on the personal emails and PMs that I have received over the years. Back in Jan. 2014, in that thread, I said,
Since I started this thread, in May of 2012, a little over 2 years, there have been 58 people who have come to me and thanked me for what I wrote and told me they applied it and talked with God and received their Calling and election made sure. They talked with God and pierced the veil. Many of them have already received the second comforter and if not the second comforter, then have met with Christ at least once. They have felt the overwhelming love of God and their lives have been changed. None of them is considered my follower. I pointed every one of them to God and they follow God. They have a direct connection to God and do not need me or anyone else to tell them what God can tell them for himself. This thread alone have been more productive in bringing people to the church of the Firstborn than I ever was serving a mission for the LDS church bringing people to the prophet and church.
Two hours later, Peggy wrote,
Amonhi said..."58 people"

Make that an even 60. Add myself, about a year ago, and my husband, last month. Thank you so very much.

(And if anyone cares, I don't "follow" Amonhi. I follow only my Savior, Jesus Christ.)

Peggy Snow Cahill
- viewtopic.php?f=14&t=22462&p=495593&hil ... nd#p495593" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That was 3 years ago this month. Few people are as open as this sister and so they

Please note that I am not claiming to have given anyone their C&E, only provided the information that was useful for a number of people to do so for themselves. Anyone who receives the blessing does so as a result of their own spiritual progression and their relationship with God.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Amonhi »

Not everyone who follows that advice gets their C&E right away. But they do come to know God better and are led by God directly. That is why it is the fastest way. What faster way can there be than for God with perfect knowledge, to tell you directly what you specifically need to do?

Here is an example someone shared in that thread.
I tried this last night, praying and asking God what I needed to do to obtain the Baptism of Fire by the Holy Ghost. His answers were very simple and sweet.

My favorite was when He replied that I needed to ask of Him and seek Him.

"How do I seek?"

"Read scriptures along with me. Talk to me."

:-o "What does that mean?" (Read along WITH Him?!!! I was like, did I just make that up???)

"You read and I speak and explain or I prompt you."

Now I'm thinking "Okaaaaayyyy..." and resume reading in Alma 7 where I left off the night before. I get to the word "grace" and SO CLEAR to my mind is the thought "Go look that up." (Me: ??? Am I making this up?!!)

"Go look it up in the Bible Dictionary."

So I do and I realize I have looked up Grace before and underlined some things. Then I remember a dream I had in February or so where the Lord taught me that He gives us grace and if, in our infantile-like floundering in this life we simply attempt to limp and flop towards Him, He gives us more...perhaps until we're actually able to walk on the straight and narrow path... There must be something very important I need to learn and understand about Grace. (You guys can jump in and clue me in here!)

By this time all I can think of is how much I want to see Christ and give Him a hug! I actually start crying, wishing it was right then. I feel a small warm feeling of peace and a very, very quiet thought along the lines of "You will have it."

I already know the answer but I ask "Have I made my Calling and Election sure?"

"No."

"What do I need to do?"

"Seek me more diligently."

This looped right back into the first answer I got: "Ask of me. Seek me."

Thank you to everyone who has encouraged me and shared their experiences! :ymhug:
Peace,
Amonhi

EdGoble
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by EdGoble »

Is it a false doctrine that one can get their calling and election made sure in life? No. So where is the harm in what Amonhi is doing?

As I see it, it is the same harm that Denver Snuffer did when he was preaching the same thing, a false "fast track" or "technique" so to speak, to calling and election in mortality, and also the encouragement for people to share these things publicly if they actually happen, when those things should be kept to themselves if they actually do happen. Seeking for the easy road to calling and election in my opinion invites deception. It invites a false calling and election by a false messenger. There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it. There is no special technique. There is only regular, good old faithfulness and leaving the rest up to the Lord.

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Mark
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Mark »

EdGoble wrote:Is it a false doctrine that one can get their calling and election made sure in life? No. So where is the harm in what Amonhi is doing?

As I see it, it is the same harm that Denver Snuffer did when he was preaching the same thing, a false "fast track" or "technique" so to speak, to calling and election in mortality, and also the encouragement for people to share these things publicly if they actually happen, when those things should be kept to themselves if they actually do happen. Seeking for the easy road to calling and election in my opinion invites deception. It invites a false calling and election by a false messenger. There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it. There is no special technique. There is only regular, good old faithfulness and leaving the rest up to the Lord.
For every righteous principle of the Lord there are multiple counterfeits. False spirits abound seeking to deceive those who desire to connect to the Lord.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Finrock
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

EdGoble wrote:Is it a false doctrine that one can get their calling and election made sure in life? No. So where is the harm in what Amonhi is doing?

As I see it, it is the same harm that Denver Snuffer did when he was preaching the same thing, a false "fast track" or "technique" so to speak, to calling and election in mortality, and also the encouragement for people to share these things publicly if they actually happen, when those things should be kept to themselves if they actually do happen. Seeking for the easy road to calling and election in my opinion invites deception. It invites a false calling and election by a false messenger. There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it. There is no special technique. There is only regular, good old faithfulness and leaving the rest up to the Lord.
The problem I see with what you are saying is that we would never know anything about callings and elections and to seek after it if everyone took your advice and decided to keep it to themselves and to never talk about it. If sharing these experiences are forbidden and dangerous, then why have several people through-out the scriptures shared these experiences? How do you suppose we will learn about these experiences, what to look for, etc. if it is evil to speak about them and to testify about them? These are not rhetorical questions. I invite you to explain this to me with more than just an assertion that it is wrong.

Also, don't you recognize that the advice here is not that there is some special fast track that gets you your calling and election, but the claim is that the fastest way to get your calling and election is to ask God, in the name of the Son, to know if you have it and if you don't have it, to ask what do you need in order to get it? Do you recognize that at is core that is the advice and counsel that is being given in the thread started by Amonhi?

Tell me, EdGoble, I am a sincere seeker of truth and want nothing but what is good and right. I don't want to be lead astray. Explain to me what is wrong with asking God if you have your calling and election made sure and then asking God to know what you need to do in order to receive it?

If I am being lead astray, EdGoble, and you are a true disciple of Christ with a duty to help me to find the correct path, please explain to me what is wrong with asking God, in the name of the Son, if I have my calling and election made sure and if I find out I do not, what is wrong with asking God, in the name of the Son, to reveal to me what it is that I need to do in order to receive it?

Thank you for your time and your well considered and sincere response!

-Finrock

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

Mark wrote:
EdGoble wrote:Is it a false doctrine that one can get their calling and election made sure in life? No. So where is the harm in what Amonhi is doing?

As I see it, it is the same harm that Denver Snuffer did when he was preaching the same thing, a false "fast track" or "technique" so to speak, to calling and election in mortality, and also the encouragement for people to share these things publicly if they actually happen, when those things should be kept to themselves if they actually do happen. Seeking for the easy road to calling and election in my opinion invites deception. It invites a false calling and election by a false messenger. There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it. There is no special technique. There is only regular, good old faithfulness and leaving the rest up to the Lord.
For every righteous principle of the Lord there are multiple counterfeits. False spirits abound seeking to deceive those who desire to connect to the Lord.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Have you considered that you might be the purveyor and the tool of false spirits by your preaching and your denouncing of this doctrine and trying to minimize it? Has it occurred to you that you might be deceived or is it always somebody else in your mind that is the one who is a false teacher and the tool of a false spirit? Are you immune from being deceived, Mark?

-Finrock

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Mark
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Posts: 6929

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Mark »

Finrock wrote:
Mark wrote:
EdGoble wrote:Is it a false doctrine that one can get their calling and election made sure in life? No. So where is the harm in what Amonhi is doing?

As I see it, it is the same harm that Denver Snuffer did when he was preaching the same thing, a false "fast track" or "technique" so to speak, to calling and election in mortality, and also the encouragement for people to share these things publicly if they actually happen, when those things should be kept to themselves if they actually do happen. Seeking for the easy road to calling and election in my opinion invites deception. It invites a false calling and election by a false messenger. There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it. There is no special technique. There is only regular, good old faithfulness and leaving the rest up to the Lord.
For every righteous principle of the Lord there are multiple counterfeits. False spirits abound seeking to deceive those who desire to connect to the Lord.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Have you considered that you might be the purveyor and the tool of false spirits by your preaching and your denouncing of this doctrine and trying to minimize it? Has it occurred to you that you might be deceived or is it always somebody else in your mind that is the one who is a false teacher and the tool of a false spirit? Are you immune from being deceived, Mark?

-Finrock

You remind me of many of the Harmston disciples I met back in the 90's. They were fixated on having their calling and election to be made sure and accused me of rejecting further light and knowledge because I did not buy into all their philosophies and methods while at the same time they decried openly about how the church had become babylonian in nature and its leadership had fallen in their duties. Just like Denver Snuffer and I suspect strongly this Amonhi character and all his Elliason buddies who he hangs with they found themselves outside the safety of the church and became susceptible to multiple false spirits encouraging them to become openly rebellious and divisive until they were either exed or withdrew their memberships from the church. It is a slippery slope as one begins to speak ill of the Lords anointed servants called to preside over His church and Kingdom on earth. You seem to be on that road based on some of your attitudes in your posts. I hope sincerely that I am mistaken. It will lead you away from the Lord not toward Him. Do as you please brother but I have seen the fruits of those who become openly rebellious against the church. They are not good. Jim Harmston, Sterling Allan, Jeff Hanks, Denver Snuffer, various unidentified internet "prophets" etc etc. The list goes on and on..

Finrock
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Posts: 4426

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

Mark wrote:
Finrock wrote:
Mark wrote:
EdGoble wrote:Is it a false doctrine that one can get their calling and election made sure in life? No. So where is the harm in what Amonhi is doing?

As I see it, it is the same harm that Denver Snuffer did when he was preaching the same thing, a false "fast track" or "technique" so to speak, to calling and election in mortality, and also the encouragement for people to share these things publicly if they actually happen, when those things should be kept to themselves if they actually do happen. Seeking for the easy road to calling and election in my opinion invites deception. It invites a false calling and election by a false messenger. There is no other substitute other than just doing what you are called to do, and praying for it. There is no special technique. There is only regular, good old faithfulness and leaving the rest up to the Lord.
For every righteous principle of the Lord there are multiple counterfeits. False spirits abound seeking to deceive those who desire to connect to the Lord.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Have you considered that you might be the purveyor and the tool of false spirits by your preaching and your denouncing of this doctrine and trying to minimize it? Has it occurred to you that you might be deceived or is it always somebody else in your mind that is the one who is a false teacher and the tool of a false spirit? Are you immune from being deceived, Mark?

-Finrock

You remind me of many of the Harmston disciples I met back in the 90's. They were fixated on having their calling and election to be made sure and accused me of rejecting further light and knowledge because I did not buy into all their philosophies and methods while at the same time they decried openly about how the church had become babylonian in nature and its leadership had fallen in their duties. Just like Denver Snuffer and I suspect strongly this Amonhi character and all his Elliason buddies who he hangs with they found themselves outside the safety of the church and became susceptible to multiple false spirits encouraging them to become openly rebellious and divisive until they were either exed or withdrew their memberships from the church. It is a slippery slope as one begins to speak ill of the Lords anointed servants called to preside over His church and Kingdom on earth. You seem to be on that road based on some of your attitudes in your posts. I hope sincerely that I am mistaken. It will lead you away from the Lord not toward Him. Do as you please brother but I have seen the fruits of those who become openly rebellious against the church. They are not good. Jim Harmston, Sterling Allan, Jeff Hanks, Denver Snuffer, various unidentified internet "prophets" etc etc. The list goes on and on..
Cool...but what does that have to do with what I asked you? You start using terms like "fixated" and making guilt by association claims, and saying because "Hitler used toilet paper and you use toilet paper you are on the slipper slope to becoming a Nazi" (you made an equivalent argument, just to be clear). At the moment I'm not interested in your speculations and what you think I'm doing or not doing or who I associate with. All of those are irrelevant to the question that I asked you, Mark. Are you susceptible to being deceived? Have you considered that you are the one who is the purveyor of a false spirit by denouncing and minimizing doctrine that is taught by Joseph Smith and Paul in the New Testament? Or, do you believe that you are immune and that you couldn't possibly be on the wrong side in this case? Don't bring apostates in to the question and don't bring all sorts of irrelevant facts that have nothing to do with the sound doctrine, just deal with the question and the issue that is being address in its purity.

Thank you!

-Finrock

Silver
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Posts: 5247

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Silver »

Too lazy to Google it (actually, I use http://www.startpage.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ), but are there any other non-LDS groups who regularly use the expression "calling and election made sure"?

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inho
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by inho »

Finrock wrote: The problem I see with what you are saying is that we would never know anything about callings and elections and to seek after it if everyone took your advice and decided to keep it to themselves and to never talk about it. If sharing these experiences are forbidden and dangerous, then why have several people through-out the scriptures shared these experiences? How do you suppose we will learn about these experiences, what to look for, etc. if it is evil to speak about them and to testify about them? These are not rhetorical questions. I invite you to explain this to me with more than just an assertion that it is wrong.
Is there any example in the scriptures about anyone specifically stating that he was seeking to have his calling and election made sure? Or was it a gift given to them after they had progressed to that point?

I think there is a risk to make a big deal about seeking and getting ones calling and election made sure. It is like a student making a fuss about seeking the best grade and while doing that forgetting that it is not about the grade but about learning the things. In announcing to have had these experience, there is a risk of spiritual elitism.

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Mark
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Posts: 6929

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Mark »

Finrock wrote:
Mark wrote:
Finrock wrote:
Mark wrote:
For every righteous principle of the Lord there are multiple counterfeits. False spirits abound seeking to deceive those who desire to connect to the Lord.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Have you considered that you might be the purveyor and the tool of false spirits by your preaching and your denouncing of this doctrine and trying to minimize it? Has it occurred to you that you might be deceived or is it always somebody else in your mind that is the one who is a false teacher and the tool of a false spirit? Are you immune from being deceived, Mark?

-Finrock

You remind me of many of the Harmston disciples I met back in the 90's. They were fixated on having their calling and election to be made sure and accused me of rejecting further light and knowledge because I did not buy into all their philosophies and methods while at the same time they decried openly about how the church had become babylonian in nature and its leadership had fallen in their duties. Just like Denver Snuffer and I suspect strongly this Amonhi character and all his Elliason buddies who he hangs with they found themselves outside the safety of the church and became susceptible to multiple false spirits encouraging them to become openly rebellious and divisive until they were either exed or withdrew their memberships from the church. It is a slippery slope as one begins to speak ill of the Lords anointed servants called to preside over His church and Kingdom on earth. You seem to be on that road based on some of your attitudes in your posts. I hope sincerely that I am mistaken. It will lead you away from the Lord not toward Him. Do as you please brother but I have seen the fruits of those who become openly rebellious against the church. They are not good. Jim Harmston, Sterling Allan, Jeff Hanks, Denver Snuffer, various unidentified internet "prophets" etc etc. The list goes on and on..
Cool...but what does that have to do with what I asked you? You start using terms like "fixated" and making guilt by association claims, and saying because "Hitler used toilet paper and you use toilet paper you are on the slipper slope to becoming a Nazi" (you made an equivalent argument, just to be clear). At the moment I'm not interested in your speculations and what you think I'm doing or not doing or who I associate with. All of those are irrelevant to the question that I asked you, Mark. Are you susceptible to being deceived? Have you considered that you are the one who is the purveyor of a false spirit by denouncing and minimizing doctrine that is taught by Joseph Smith and Paul in the New Testament? Or, do you believe that you are immune and that you couldn't possibly be on the wrong side in this case? Don't bring apostates in to the question and don't bring all sorts of irrelevant facts that have nothing to do with the sound doctrine, just deal with the question and the issue that is being address in its purity.

Thank you!

-Finrock

You are accusing me of minimizing or outright denouncing the doctrines taught by Joseph and Paul concerningthe making ones calling and election sure. When have I done that? That is just a false and misleading accusation. I am denouncing the various false Prophets like Denver Snuffer and Amonhi in their many various methods and Interpretations of facilitating having this occur in ones life. I have gone to great lengths in explaining why I found Amonhi's quickest methods as dangerous and an opportunity of opening up oneself to false revelation. I am not going to rehash all that. Go back and read my responses to him in various threads. I consider him to be a wolf in sheeps clothing just the same way I did Jim Harmston and Jeff Hanks at the time they apostatized from the church and started the TLC joke. I considered Denver Snuffer in that same category as he began to rebel against and eventually denounced the church authorities in a prideful way.

You are missing my point obviously. When a man starts down the slippery slope of rebellion and division against the Lords anointed servants he puts himself in the wrong camp. Joseph spoke of it on more than one occasion when addressing the future apostates of his day. This is nothing new. Its been going on since the restoration. The fruits of the spirit are not rebellion against the church authorities and attacking the Brethren for perceived weaknesses. False spirits prey upon those who begin this self destructive behaviour. I saw it happen with all the Harmston gang and with the Denver Snuffer gang and have seen it multiple times here with the Amonhi gang. It just keeps on happening with the same results. I dont care how often they speak about the Lord or his doctrines their fruits eventually turn out rotten and decayed. Read John Pontius wonderful book Following the Light of Christ Into His Presence and compare that with Amonhi's quick fire approaches and hopefully you will discern the difference in approaches. I hope so for your sake.

EdGoble
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by EdGoble »

Finrock wrote: The problem I see with what you are saying is that we would never know anything about callings and elections and to seek after it if everyone took your advice and decided to keep it to themselves and to never talk about it. If sharing these experiences are forbidden and dangerous, then why have several people through-out the scriptures shared these experiences? How do you suppose we will learn about these experiences, what to look for, etc. if it is evil to speak about them and to testify about them? These are not rhetorical questions. I invite you to explain this to me with more than just an assertion that it is wrong.

Also, don't you recognize that the advice here is not that there is some special fast track that gets you your calling and election, but the claim is that the fastest way to get your calling and election is to ask God, in the name of the Son, to know if you have it and if you don't have it, to ask what do you need in order to get it? Do you recognize that at is core that is the advice and counsel that is being given in the thread started by Amonhi?

Tell me, EdGoble, I am a sincere seeker of truth and want nothing but what is good and right. I don't want to be lead astray. Explain to me what is wrong with asking God if you have your calling and election made sure and then asking God to know what you need to do in order to receive it?

If I am being lead astray, EdGoble, and you are a true disciple of Christ with a duty to help me to find the correct path, please explain to me what is wrong with asking God, in the name of the Son, if I have my calling and election made sure and if I find out I do not, what is wrong with asking God, in the name of the Son, to reveal to me what it is that I need to do in order to receive it?

Thank you for your time and your well considered and sincere response!

-Finrock
I think you have taken me out of context. I said that it is not wrong to ask God for your calling and election made sure. In fact I believe that. However, there is no other principle you can do that will fast-track you to it, other than to obey and ask, and even then, any amount of extra over-blown obedience to where you become Peter Priesthood will not buy you extra brownie points. As Bruce R. McConkie says, you don't have to be truer than true. Oh yeah, and I would not do it either if you happen to be someone that finds fault or speaks evil with the Lord's anointed. I would make sure that you are in submission and give deference to the keys of the priesthood so you have the right spirit about you, because having that type of spirit of evil speaking is indeed an invitation for deception. And even then, I would venture a guess to say that it will not be immediate, but will be at a time and place of the Lord's choosing. One rational thing though would be to put yourself in a place often where resurrected people and just men made perfect have been known to frequent (i.e. go to the temple often and it may happen there).

And for people to make it more complex than that, and advocate for you to reveal such a sacred thing if it does happen to you, is out of harmony with clear advice from authorities that have warned not to share such sacred things. Take that for what you will. I am not here to tell you what to do. I just have an opinion. Go do what you will, and if you actually shake hands with Jesus Christ, and you are actually shaking hands with a person of flesh, then more power to you. But if you just get an apparition or a dream only, I would be wary of that.

Amonhi, in my opinion, is out of harmony, and has made it his gospel hobby to appear on forums without divulging his real name, and advocating for something and making it the foundation of his existence, it seems to me. There is something wrong with that extremism.

A lot of people invite the idea of seeking after calling and election while having a spirit of evil speaking and finding fault with the Lord's anointed. Those things do not and cannot go together and result in an actual Second Comforter experience. Yes, I know that a lot of people challenge me on who the Lord's anointed are. They are the Brethren with the keys of the kingdom, for pete's sake.

It seems that a lot of people are extreme in this thing, and even Brigham Young admonished people that false spirits can even come in the form of Christ. I would make sure that you can do the handshake test before you accept that you have in fact received a second comforter experience and are not deceived. Since Christ is the one that inspired Joseph Smith to give the advice to do the handshake test, no doubt he would not refuse to shake your hand if you request it.

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BruceRGilbert
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

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gclayjr
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by gclayjr »

Kirtland R.M., Amonhi
The Holy Spirit of Promise
Joseph Smith defined the principle of "mak[ing your] calling and election sure" in a 27 June 1839 sermon. This was to be accomplished, he said, after a lifetime of service and devotion, by being "sealed up" to exaltation while yet living.
I don't think one should SEEK to get their calling and election made sure. They should seek to serve, and to be devoted to Jesus Christ and the Gospel. If one does so diligently enough, then they may get their calling and election made sure. But that should not be the purpose for serving and being devoted to Jesus Christ and his gospel.

A military analogy. One does not seek to get a Congressional Medal of Honor. One seeks to diligently serve one's country and be brave and honest in battle. In being that honorable Marine (ok...maybe seaman, soldier, or airman) , one may receive a medal of honor, but the goal is to be a brave, honorable Marine, not to get that Medal of Honor. Some selfish arrogant Marine who is trying to get Glory and a Medal of Honor should be kicked out of the Marines, because their quest would be a danger to both their fellow Marines, and to this great country.

Regards,

George Clay

Finrock
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

Peter says to give diligence to make your calling and election made sure. Joseph Smith says don't be satisfied until you've received your calling and election made sure. Jesus Christ said, seek for His Kingdom. Seek after the best gifts. Don't be happy and satisfied until you are saved in the Celestial Kingdom of God. Your calling and your election made sure is not something that you earn because of your hard work and valor. It is a gift of mercy and grace. We merit and deserve nothing. We can work all the day long and with all of our hearts and put everything we have got in to living the gospel and serving the Lord and we would still be unprofitable servants. Expecting and waiting for a rewards because you did a lot of good works is not the answer.

Seeking to know the Lord's will and whether or not the course that you are taking in life is pleasing to Him is what matters. It is knowing God's will and His desires for you that matters. Seeking to know this and seeking after His best gifts, if you believe it and want it, are what He wants. We must believe in the calling and in the election. We must make sure that when we take our cross that we aren't just hanging by one nail but that we have the nail in the sure place as well and only God can give you that confidence and that knowledge. If God is pleased with you, then you are well. Seek to know God's will and His desires for you. Seek not for accolades or to prove that you are worthy of some gift from God. You aren't and never will be. Seek mercy and grace and recognize that it is through the merits and through the mercy of Jesus Christ that you are saved.

-Finrock

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Mark
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Mark »

"Oh yeah, and I would not do it either if you happen to be someone that finds fault or speaks evil with the Lord's anointed. I would make sure that you are in submission and give deference to the keys of the priesthood so you have the right spirit about you, because having that type of spirit of evil speaking is indeed an invitation for deception. And even then, I would venture a guess to say that it will not be immediate, but will be at a time and place of the Lord's choosing."

Thank you brother Ed. Finding fault with and speaking ill of the Lords anointed servants who hold the proper Priesthood keys is a violation of sacred temple covenants. It is indeed an invitation for deception.

Finrock
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

inho wrote:
Finrock wrote: The problem I see with what you are saying is that we would never know anything about callings and elections and to seek after it if everyone took your advice and decided to keep it to themselves and to never talk about it. If sharing these experiences are forbidden and dangerous, then why have several people through-out the scriptures shared these experiences? How do you suppose we will learn about these experiences, what to look for, etc. if it is evil to speak about them and to testify about them? These are not rhetorical questions. I invite you to explain this to me with more than just an assertion that it is wrong.
Is there any example in the scriptures about anyone specifically stating that he was seeking to have his calling and election made sure? Or was it a gift given to them after they had progressed to that point?

I think there is a risk to make a big deal about seeking and getting ones calling and election made sure. It is like a student making a fuss about seeking the best grade and while doing that forgetting that it is not about the grade but about learning the things. In announcing to have had these experience, there is a risk of spiritual elitism.
2 Peter 1:10
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
LoF 2
55 Let us here observe, that after any portion of the human family are made acquainted with the important fact that there is a God who has created and does uphold all things, the extent of their knowledge, respecting his character and glory, will depend upon their diligence and faithfulness in seeking after him, until like Enoch the brother of Jared, and Moses, they shall obtain faith in God, and power with him to behold him face to face.

56 We have now clearly set forth how it is, and how it was, that God became an object of faith for rational beings; and also, upon what foundation the testimony was based, which excited the enquiry and diligent search of the ancient saints, to seek after and obtain a knowledge of the glory of God: and we have seen that it was human testimony, and human testimony only, that excited this enquiry, in the first instance in their minds—it was the credence they gave to the testimony of their fathers—this testimony having aroused their minds to enquire after the knowledge of God, the enquiry frequently terminated, indeed, always terminated, when rightly pursued, in the most glorious discoveries, and eternal certainty.
LoF 3
2 Let us here observe, that three things are necessary, in order that any rational and intelligent being may exercise faith in God unto life and salvation.

3 First, The idea that he actually exists.

4 Secondly, A correct idea of his character, perfections and attributes.

5 Thirdly, An actual knowledge that the course of life which he is pursuing, is according to his will.—For without an acquaintance with these three important facts, the faith of every rational being must be imperfect and unproductive; but with this understanding, it can become perfect and fruitful, abounding in righteousness unto the praise and glory of God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
-Finrock

Finrock
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

inho wrote:
Finrock wrote: The problem I see with what you are saying is that we would never know anything about callings and elections and to seek after it if everyone took your advice and decided to keep it to themselves and to never talk about it. If sharing these experiences are forbidden and dangerous, then why have several people through-out the scriptures shared these experiences? How do you suppose we will learn about these experiences, what to look for, etc. if it is evil to speak about them and to testify about them? These are not rhetorical questions. I invite you to explain this to me with more than just an assertion that it is wrong.
Is there any example in the scriptures about anyone specifically stating that he was seeking to have his calling and election made sure? Or was it a gift given to them after they had progressed to that point?

I think there is a risk to make a big deal about seeking and getting ones calling and election made sure. It is like a student making a fuss about seeking the best grade and while doing that forgetting that it is not about the grade but about learning the things. In announcing to have had these experience, there is a risk of spiritual elitism.
Those who have their calling and election made sure, meaning, they know that they have been sealed unto eternal life, have passed the test. God has found their hearts to be pure and they have accepted the gift. If they who have this assurance announce it, there is no danger of spiritual elitism, but rather there is danger of spiritual envy by those who have yet to obtain this assurance. Envy comes because they have not received this assurance even though they believe they deserve it because they've been striving and working so hard doing all of the things on their checklists that any good Mormon should be doing, as they suppose.

-Finrock

Finrock
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

Mark wrote:"Oh yeah, and I would not do it either if you happen to be someone that finds fault or speaks evil with the Lord's anointed. I would make sure that you are in submission and give deference to the keys of the priesthood so you have the right spirit about you, because having that type of spirit of evil speaking is indeed an invitation for deception. And even then, I would venture a guess to say that it will not be immediate, but will be at a time and place of the Lord's choosing."

Thank you brother Ed. Finding fault with and speaking ill of the Lords anointed servants who hold the proper Priesthood keys is a violation of sacred temple covenants. It is indeed an invitation for deception.
First, this is an argument of irrelevance, because committing adultery is also an invitation for deception. Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize. It is not a sure indicator that a person is apostate just because they might find fault with the leaders of the Church.

You and I are not in a position to judge where a person is at and whether they are sealed to life eternal or to pertition, unless we know they have committed the unpardonable sin, and we can only know this if we know their calling and election is made sure.

-Finrock

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gclayjr
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by gclayjr »

Finrock,
Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize. It is not a sure indicator that a person is apostate just because they might find fault with the leaders of the Church.
Having your calling and election made sure does not give you license to sin. The whole idea of having your calling and election made sure is that in working diligently to follow Jesus Christ and the promptings of the holy spirit, you have ceased to be "temptable" by Satan. You no longer have any desire to sin. Your heart is completely changed. Many of us have this in various aspects of our life. I have no desire for alcohol or tobacco. I have no desire to steal someone else's property. If my calling and election were to be made sure, not only would I not have a desire for these things, but I will have no desire to sin in any significant way.

Regards,

George Clay

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