Making Your Calling and Election Sure

[brlenox]

Peas

[Lizzy60]

^^^^^^^Mean-spirited sarcasm at the expense of another person is not becoming of one who considers himself a righteous member of the Lord's church.

[brlenox]

^^^^^^^Mean-spirited sarcasm at the expense of another person is not becoming of one who considers himself a righteous member of the Lord's church.

Do you suppose it's worse than destroying peoples eternal lives?

[bjordan13]

Isn't this an ordinance? IMHO having your C&E made sure is not something you seek after. You find joy and happiness in serving and as a result of those efforts you are recognized. It shouldn't be bestowed on the ambitious I don't think. Only for the humble people that have without ambition or other self interest given service that would qualify them for the ordinance. And then only after they are chosen and receive this by authority.

[Lizzy60]

Moses invited the children of Israel to climb the mountain and see God. They declined, and chose to remain in the foothills.
They felt safer there.

From someone more eloquent ----


Said the Prophet Joseph Smith after one of the most revelatory meetings in his life, “There was nothing made known to these men [the Twelve] but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive” (Teachings, p. 237). This is the religion of every man. Not “Take my word for my experience,” but “Duplicate it in your own life.” How far do I go with this? All the way.

Let me then come to a close. I have hiked, with my wife and at night, all the way from the base of what is known as Mt. Sinai to the top. (Incidentally, with a very sore toe. Climbing hurts, and the more you climb, sometimes the more it hurts.) We went up to where the air is thinner and the veil thinner. There isn’t time to describe the feeling, but we were able to recollect that Moses, there, had face-to-face communion with God. He came back down and said to the children of Israel, in the name of the God whose name he knew, “Now, you are invited to go back up with me.”

And they said, “Thank you. No. That’s for prophets. That’s for people who are a bit fanatical. We will stay here and you go up, Moses.”

In his absence they built an idol. The power of religious impulses goes in many directions. They built an idol—a thing—and were denied the privileges of Moses (D&C 84:23–25). That is what our generation is now doing again. We are staying down below and then claiming superiority for our judgment in doing so.

Truman Madsen, BYU Speeches, On How We Know

[brlenox]

Soooooooo.... what you are saying is that Moses and Amonhi are alike. I gotta be honest with you - I'm not feelin it.




Whirled Peas

[Mark]

Soooooooo.... what you are saying is that Moses and Amonhi are alike. I gotta be honest with you - I'm not feelin it.




Whirled Peas

There is good reason why you are not "feeling it". Amonhi and many of his Elliaison group which includes many former and current forum members along with those others in the Snuffer inspired Remnant movement all seem to have one thing in common: their activities have taken them away from the safety of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and have put them on a path that is contrary to the order of the church restored through the prophet Joseph Smith. This order is revealed over and over again thru the Doctrine and Covenants. It centers around the theme of unity. Pres McKay summed it up as follows:


"The mission of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to establish peace. The Living Christ is its head. Under him tens of thousands of men in the Church are divinely authorized to represent him in variously assigned positions. It is the duty of these representatives to manifest brotherly love, first toward one another, then toward all mankind; to seek unity, harmony, and peace in organizations within the Church, and then by precept and example extend these virtues throughout the world.14

In branches and wards of the Church, there is no virtue more conducive to progress and spirituality than the presence of this principle. When jealousy, backbiting, [and] evil-speaking supplant mutual confidence, unity, and harmony, the progress of the organization is stifled. …

Inner weakness is more dangerous and more fatal than outward opposition. The Church is little if at all injured by persecution and calumnies [or false charges] from ignorant, misinformed, or malicious enemies; a greater hindrance to its progress comes from faultfinders, shirkers, commandment-breakers, and apostate cliques within.15

It is the principle of unity that has enabled the wards, stakes, branches, and missions of the Church to progress and to accomplish the purposes for which the Church was established. It could not have been done by dissension and hatred. There have been difficulties. Each member of the Church has his own ideas. Sometimes they are not the same as those of the bishopric, and not the same as those of the presidency of the stake, and not the same as the Presidency of the Church; but each has had to submerge his own ideas to the good of the whole, and in that united purpose we have achieved something that is wonderful.

As I think of the future of this Church and of the welfare of the young men and women, as well as of the mothers and fathers, I feel impressed that there is no more important message to give than “to be one,” and avoid things that may cause a rift among members. I know that the adversary has no stronger weapon against any group of men or women in this Church than the weapon of thrusting in a wedge of disunity, doubt, and enmity. …

The challenge is before us; we cannot fail in the divine commitments given to us as a people. Unity of purpose, with all working in harmony within the structure of Church organization as revealed by the Lord, is to be our objective. Let each member, teacher, and leader feel the importance of the position that each one holds. All are important to the successful accomplishment of God’s work, which is our work.16

The greatest safeguard we have for unity and strength in the Church is found in the priesthood, by honoring and respecting it. Oh, my brethren—presidents of stakes, bishops of wards, and all who hold the priesthood—God bless you in your leadership, in your responsibility to guide, to bless, to comfort the people whom you have been appointed to preside over and to visit. Guide them to go to the Lord and seek inspiration so to live that they may rise above the low and the mean, and live in the spiritual realm.

Recognize those who preside over you and, when necessary, seek their advice.17

May the [organizations in] the Church be blessed with the spirit of unity and harmony. May there be banished from their hearts the spirit of enmity, backbiting, and evil speaking, and may they keep in their hearts the truth expressed by Jesus when he said, “… if ye are not one ye are not mine.” (D&C 38:27.)18

Let that spirit of unity and oneness for which our Lord and Savior prayed on the night of his betrayal, be characteristic of this his Church: Father, keep them one, as thou and I are one [see John 17:11]."


Joseph said this concerning the quorum of the 12:

"Let the Twelve be humble, and not be exalted, and beware of pride, and not seek to excel one above another, but act for each other’s good, and . . . make honorable mention of . . . [our brother’s] name [in our prayers before the Lord and before our fellow men], and not backbite and devour our brother. . . . Must the new ones that are chosen to fill the places of those that are fallen, [of] the quorum of the Twelve, begin to exalt themselves, until they exalt themselves so high that they will soon tumble over and have a great fall, and go wallowing through the mud and mire and darkness, Judas-like, to the buffetings of Satan, as several of the quorum [of the Twelve] have done?"

... “Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a manifestation, keep it to yourselves. . . . Do not watch for iniquity in each other, if you do you will not get an endowment, for God will not bestow it on such.”

[gclayjr]

Obrien

you say,

LDS.org assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" = following the church leaders. They are wrong. Plain and simple.

So I guess that means

Obrien assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" ≠ following the church leaders. He is right Plain and simple

Since you used that to rebut my comments where I referred to articles in LDS.org. I guess to you LDS.org, is not a valid source of information. You provided no rebuttal to my comments other than disparaging LDS.org, and LDS leaders, except your 1 brain cell that remains after breathing and other bodily functions.

You think this is actually rational?

you also say

But white shirts, minivans, unpierced male ears, tattoo-less bodies, covered shoulders etc are ALSO viewed by TBMs as part of a Christ centered life. However, these things are vain and foolish traditions that bind us down and cause us to become superior in our daily walk over the tattooed, tank top wearing rabble. Pride of our righteousness because we follow vain traditions is the real killer of a Christ centered life.

So I guess your body is not a temple. Where do you draw the line? Coffee? Alcohol? Marijuana? Hard Drugs? self mutilation?

Where is the line?

Regards,

George Clay

[Mark]

Obrien

you say,

LDS.org assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" = following the church leaders. They are wrong. Plain and simple.

So I guess that means

Obrien assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" ≠ following the church leaders. He is right Plain and simple

Since you used that to rebut my comments where I referred to articles in LDS.org. I guess to you LDS.org, is not a valid source of information. You provided no rebuttal to my comments other than disparaging LDS.org, and LDS leaders, except your 1 brain cell that remains after breathing and other bodily functions.

You think this is actually rational?

you also say

But white shirts, minivans, unpierced male ears, tattoo-less bodies, covered shoulders etc are ALSO viewed by TBMs as part of a Christ centered life. However, these things are vain and foolish traditions that bind us down and cause us to become superior in our daily walk over the tattooed, tank top wearing rabble. Pride of our righteousness because we follow vain traditions is the real killer of a Christ centered life.

So I guess your body is not a temple. Where do you draw the line? Coffee? Alcohol? Marijuana? Hard Drugs? self mutilation?

Where is the line?

Regards,

George Clay

Obriens thoughts remind me of what Isaiah said would be prevalent in the last days when good would be called evil and evil good. I still would like someone to explain to me why it would be damaging in my pursuit of the cause of righteousness if I follow what my church leaders are telling me to do in my life. How are the Brethren leading me away from the cause of righteousness by encouraging me to keep the commandments and become more obedient to the voice of the Spirit and be heavily involved in service to my fellow men through participating in the 4 fold mission of the church etc etc etc? Was following what the church leaders in the Book of Mormon were telling the people to be doing leading them away from the cause of righteousness? Nephi? Jacob? Mosiah? Benjamin? Alma? Mormon? It's seems to me that when the people REJECTED the counsel of these church leaders that is when they got themselves into trouble. This is very confusing to me. Perhaps Obrien can better explain this?

[Mark]

brlenox spurred my curiosity so I went to the Elliaison forum and read the many anonymous accounts of those including Amonhi who have posted about claiming to having received the blessing of having their calling and election made sure. Some like this Seeker and his wife have even made a YouTube video about their experience. As I read and listened to these accounts there are just some things that I found that do not feel right to me about this whole methodology and anonymous open sharing of this glorious experience. I would encourage any to read these accounts and determine for themselves whether or not what I am saying has any merit. I am not trying to mock anyone here. I am only concerned about the legitimacy and apparent fruits of all this. I know that many on this forum who have put their stamp of approval on Amonhi and his methods along with the Elliason groups methodology have left the church and are part of groups like the remnant movement. Why are these people becoming disenchanted with and leaving the church? What is causing them to separate themselves from the body of Saints? These are very serious questions as they pertain to the very real possibility in my mind of deception from false spirits. I open them up for discussion here.


http://elliaison.org/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=18&" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[h_p]

Isn't this an ordinance? IMHO having your C&E made sure is not something you seek after.

I believe it's as literal as this verse:

Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

We can see examples of this happening with Enos (Enos 1), Alma (Mosiah 26), and others. I know there's the 2nd Anointing, but I honestly don't know how that all fits in. For me, I would think that hearing God promise you eternal life would be sufficient.

As for thinking it's wrong to seek that promise, I'll side with Alma:

Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.

And Lamoni's father:

O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day.

Having your calling and election made sure is the promise that you will receive these blessings. How could a person want these things, but not want a promise of it from God? I simply don't understand how a person can have that kind of contradictory thinking in their head. I don't seek office in the church, but I certainly do seek eternal life. I've made covenants with God because I want the blessings God promises through them. How can that possibly be wrong, when it's the whole entire purpose for us being born?

[Finrock]

It is the principle of unity that has enabled the wards, stakes, branches, and missions of the Church to progress and to accomplish the purposes for which the Church was established. It could not have been done by dissension and hatred. There have been difficulties. Each member of the Church has his own ideas. Sometimes they are not the same as those of the bishopric, and not the same as those of the presidency of the stake, and not the same as the Presidency of the Church; but each has had to submerge his own ideas to the good of the whole, and in that united purpose we have achieved something that is wonderful.

As I think of the future of this Church and of the welfare of the young men and women, as well as of the mothers and fathers, I feel impressed that there is no more important message to give than “to be one,” and avoid things that may cause a rift among members. I know that the adversary has no stronger weapon against any group of men or women in this Church than the weapon of thrusting in a wedge of disunity, doubt, and enmity. …

The challenge is before us; we cannot fail in the divine commitments given to us as a people. Unity of purpose, with all working in harmony within the structure of Church organization as revealed by the Lord, is to be our objective. Let each member, teacher, and leader feel the importance of the position that each one holds. All are important to the successful accomplishment of God’s work, which is our work.16

Unity does not come about because people decide to agree, go along, or change their views and opinions because they might be disciplined and/or excommunicated by the Church. Unity is not achieved through the use of coercion, mind control, or by sacrificing your conscience for the conscience of one who is in a position to be your servant but is acting as a master.

Remember, priesthood is about being a servant. It is not about control. It is not about telling people what to do, how to live, what to think, or threatening them, or accusing them, or judging them. The priesthood is really just the power to bless others and that is it! Being a bishop, a stake president, an apostles is not about managing and controlling and demanding unity and strict adherence to your words and your thoughts. Its about being a servant. A bishop, and stake president, an apostle is a servant, not a master.

Unity comes from accepting and receiving the Holy Spirit which comes because one has a broken heart and a contrite spirit. Unity comes from all having the same Mind, the Mind of Christ, or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has no desire to control, to coerce, or to make demands of obedience. The Holy Spirit brings unity because it is love. The Holy Spirit, or having the Mind of Christ brings unity because others will be respected for their diversity, for their differences, for their thoughts, for their ideas, and they will be allowed to live in peace according to the dictates of their own conscience. When you have no enmity towards another, then you are living in unity whether you exactly agree with them or not.

If bishops want to lead and bring unity, they must be teachable and humble. If Stake Presidents want to lead and bring unity, they must be teachable and humble. If Apostles want to lead and bring unity, they must be teachable and humble. If a member wants to lead and bring unity, they must be teachable and humble. Unity comes from accepting the Holy Spirit and living according to the dictates of that Spirit. Diversity, talents, thoughts, ideas, dispositions, notions, and humans are diverse and this diversity in thoughts, ideas, dispositions, and notions were all created by the One Master Creator. God, the Father, is the Creator of all this diversity.

The greatest safeguard we have for unity and strength in the Church is found in the priesthood, by honoring and respecting it. Oh, my brethren—presidents of stakes, bishops of wards, and all who hold the priesthood—God bless you in your leadership, in your responsibility to guide, to bless, to comfort the people whom you have been appointed to preside over and to visit. Guide them to go to the Lord and seek inspiration so to live that they may rise above the low and the mean, and live in the spiritual realm.p

Yes, priesthood is about blessing, comforting, and guiding people to go to the Lord and seek inspiration from Him.

Joseph said this concerning the quorum of the 12:

"Let the Twelve be humble, and not be exalted, and beware of pride, and not seek to excel one above another, but act for each other’s good, and . . . make honorable mention of . . . [our brother’s] name [in our prayers before the Lord and before our fellow men], and not backbite and devour our brother. . . . Must the new ones that are chosen to fill the places of those that are fallen, [of] the quorum of the Twelve, begin to exalt themselves, until they exalt themselves so high that they will soon tumble over and have a great fall, and go wallowing through the mud and mire and darkness, Judas-like, to the buffetings of Satan, as several of the quorum [of the Twelve] have done?"

Good quote.

Enmity is being in a state of opposition towards another.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

brlenox spurred my curiosity so I went to the Elliaison forum and read the many anonymous accounts of those including Amonhi who have posted about claiming to having received the blessing of having their calling and election made sure. Some like this Seeker and his wife have even made a YouTube video about their experience. As I read and listened to these accounts there are just some things that I found that do not feel right to me about this whole methodology and anonymous open sharing of this glorious experience. I would encourage any to read these accounts and determine for themselves whether or not what I am saying has any merit. I am not trying to mock anyone here. I am only concerned about the legitimacy and apparent fruits of all this. I know that many on this forum who have put their stamp of approval on Amonhi and his methods along with the Elliason groups methodology have left the church and are part of groups like the remnant movement. Why are these people becoming disenchanted with and leaving the church? What is causing them to separate themselves from the body of Saints? These are very serious questions as they pertain to the very real possibility in my mind of deception from false spirits. I open them up for discussion here.


http://elliaison.org/forum/index.php?t=thread&frm_id=18&" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In your personal opinion, Mark, is it ever appropriate to disagree with the Church's position or a Church leader's position? Meaning, is there any room in your view for having a dissenting voice? These are sincere questions which I believe are relevant to this discussion.

Thanks!

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Obrien

you say,

LDS.org assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" = following the church leaders. They are wrong. Plain and simple.

So I guess that means

Obrien assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" ≠ following the church leaders. He is right Plain and simple

Since you used that to rebut my comments where I referred to articles in LDS.org. I guess to you LDS.org, is not a valid source of information. You provided no rebuttal to my comments other than disparaging LDS.org, and LDS leaders, except your 1 brain cell that remains after breathing and other bodily functions.

You think this is actually rational?

you also say

But white shirts, minivans, unpierced male ears, tattoo-less bodies, covered shoulders etc are ALSO viewed by TBMs as part of a Christ centered life. However, these things are vain and foolish traditions that bind us down and cause us to become superior in our daily walk over the tattooed, tank top wearing rabble. Pride of our righteousness because we follow vain traditions is the real killer of a Christ centered life.

So I guess your body is not a temple. Where do you draw the line? Coffee? Alcohol? Marijuana? Hard Drugs? self mutilation?

Where is the line?

Regards,

George Clay

It's not about the outward appearance, its what is in the inside of your temple that matters. Is your temple housing a holy spirit or some other spirit? We can look exceptionally beautiful on the outside, yet be filled with death and decay on the inside.

The line is Love. Are you using the law to bless others or as a way to feel superior? If you are not filled with the Love of Christ, then all your works will be a curse to you. Two people will be doing the same thing but one will be saved and the other will go to hell. Why? Because one was motivated by love of God and others and the other was motivated by something else.

Place your focus on the inner vessel as opposed to the outward appearance. The line is Love. Either you have it or you are a walking corpse, doing dead works.

-Finrock

[Mark]

Here are a couple examples of a couple posts that just don't sit right with me concerning this whole process being taught and pushed by Elliaison people. Once again I am not attacking or mocking these individuals. I am just interested in the legitimacy and appropriateness being espoused in these web pages involving this wonderful gospel principle. I have sent many counterfeits having been approached by the TLC church about these blessings available to us all many years ago. I am very leery of these counterfeits as they have destroyed the lives of many who fell for them thinking they were legitimate ways of connecting with the Lord.


"I came across Amonhi's post one day about the process of how to make your C&E sure.
I began thinking "that's a great idea, pick a specific date to ask...hmmm...let me check my calendar.."
But the Spirit was so clear in prompting me to ask right in that moment.
I thought "Seriously? Ask right now?"
I could hardly get all the words of the prayer out as I was flooded from head to toe with relief, amazement, happiness. It's like the Spirit was shouting "YES. YES, of course you do!" (have your C&E)

I couldn't believe it.
I received the Baptism of fire when I was 12, (baptized at 8 ), but I didn't know that's what it was til later. In the past couple of years, after learning to meditate, I have had wonderful spiritual experiences, communicating with Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother and the Savior, too, but I'd only seen the Savior in dreams.
I thought you had to see the Savior first, physically, to receive your C&E. I still have a lot more to learn about but it is neat how I notice the difference between listening to the Holy Ghost vs listening to the Savior - they sound like 2 different people, which is a nice reassurance that the Savior is leading me now."


"When I was 14 I decided to find out if the Book of Mormon was true. I read it and prayed for an answer. Nothing. I kept praying for 2 years. Nothing. Finally one night the Lord said, "You have always known it was true." I realized this was true. I had always had a testimony of the Book of Mormon, I just had not realized it.

A few years back, my husband and I were introduced to the idea that we could know if our calling and elections were made sure by some friends. They had received a witness that each of their's was and they testified of it with the spirit witnessing the truth of it to us. It was a powerful experience. I had always thought that eventually I would have my calling and election made sure, but I thought that would come when I was OLD.

I started praying, asking if my calling and election was made sure. Nothing. One day my husband and I were sitting in stake conference and a scripture was read, "you shall not fall." Both of us felt the scripture come with force into our minds. My husband said that he came to know this was the Lord telling him that his calling and election was made sure. This was not necessarily the moment it happened, but the moment he was made aware of it.

I kept praying and asking. Nothing. After several months the Lord said, "You have always had it." I felt this really strongly. I knew that I had my calling and election made sure. This was not the moment it was made sure, but the moment I knew it.

Wow. I was in no way perfect, but I had a stamp of approval. I came to see it as the point that the Lord knew that I would get there. I would be exalted"


Joseph Smith said the following about this wonderful principle:

“From the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things. It was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth’s sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice because he seeks to do his will, he does know, most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not, nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.” (Lectures on Faith, 6:58; see also D&C 98:11–15 and Teachings, p. 322.)



“After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure.” (Teachings, p. 150.)


My question is simply are people treating this crowning experience of mortality with to much casualness and something that the Lord will grant just for the asking? Where is the discipleship in all this?

[Finrock]

LDS.org assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" = following the church leaders. They are wrong. Plain and simple.

You are the one who's wrong, I'm afraid. It's probably on account of usual your knee jerk reaction to 'kick against the pricks' at every little thing that comes from the church. What is it with the little one liner jabs you throw out against the church and our leaders?

'Undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness' obviously means living the commandments, following the example of the Savior each day of your life, loving, serving and having complete integrity. Listening carefully to the promptings of the Holy Ghost and following them. Controlling your anger, frustration, impatience with those around you. Reading and pondering the words of God and humbly listening and learning from his servants--church leaders and those spiritually more mature people around you, standing in Holy Places in your daily life, praying and developing a relationship with God that you come to know him and love him--slowly overcoming all desire to do evil or commit sin. Now, if you want to say that's 'following church leaders', you must have some practically translated leaders--I don't. Mine are more human than that. They are great men and women, but they aren't examples of 'undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness'. Most of them are like me, they are striving diligently, but they have plenty of weaknesses. I don't try to emulate their weaknesses--but I do try to follow their good examples and the areas where they are much better than I am.

The trials that refine us to where we ought to be will not be possible unless we have an assurance from God that we are His. Having your calling and election made sure is not the end of your progression. It is a new beginning. There will be tests that if you don't know that God will not abandon you and that you are His, then you will falter and fail. If we have a sure and solid foundation upon which to build, because it has been confirmed to us by the Holy Spirit of Promise, then this is where we draw our strength from when the tempest is tossed, the winds are howling, and everything around us seems to be falling apart. But, with our feet firmly planted on the sure foundation, we will see these things for what they are and be able to remain faithful knowing that our weaknesses and foibles are not sufficient to break the seal that God has placed upon us. When God seals us, no power in heaven or hell can break that seal. Our weaknesses will continue to exist. Having your calling and election made sure does not mean that you never make mistakes or never do anything wrong. It is an assurance that even if you falter because we are saturated by this fallible nature and are living and conceived in sin, our place is assured. This gives us strength and knowledge that all things will work out for our good. Without this assurance the trials that truly refine us will not be possible because we will break in to pieces like glass.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

In your personal opinion, Mark, is it ever appropriate to disagree with the Church's position or a Church leader's position? Meaning, is there any room in your view for having a dissenting voice? These are sincere questions which I believe are relevant to this discussion.

I know that you were not asking me, but I will respond. There is a difference between official positions, and individual positions. I think that when you disagree with official positions, you need to reevaluate your positions. I will give you 3 examples

1) I know that the Church supports Abortion in case of rape, incest, or the health of the mother. I asked a Bishop if a girl/woman was pregnant as a result of either rape or incest, could he consider COUNSELING the girl/woman to get the abortion, rather than just be willing to accept that it may so traumatic that she may not be able/willing to go through with the pregnancy. He said he could conceive of such a situation. I cannot. If I were a bishop, I would not condemn a girl/woman who decides to have an abortion in such a circumstance , but I could never counsel her to do it.

2) I know that the church baptizes undocumented aliens into the Church. Not only do they do that, but they also send them on missions within the United States. I struggle with first the idea of baptizing someone who must lie and deceive for them to live in the U.S. I further have problems with granting temple recommend to those who lie and deceive to live here.

I accept that there are appropriate times for lying and deception. If I lived in Europe during WW2, and I was hiding a Jewish family in my attic, I would have no problem looking a Gestapo agent in the eye and lying about it. I just am not sure about lying and breaking the law so that I might live a better life. However, those are shoes, I have never walked in, so I might have a different view if I had the same choice.

My view on this is that, I don't understand why the church allows this, but since it is not my stewardship, I will leave it as I don't understand, rather than deciding that the church s WRONG.

I understand that both examples involve my point of view being MORE restrictive rather than less restrictive that the advice of the church's leaders recommendations.

I guess if is more restrictive, I would decide that unless it was important for living a good life, I would give up nothing to follow it, even if I don't understand/believe it.

3) Obrien has been bleating about tattoos. When I was in the Marines, I thought it would be cool to have an Eagle Globe and Anchor tattooed to my arm. Largely because of church standards, I did not. What have I lost? Even if the leaders were wrong, have I really lost anything by living my life with no Eagle Globe and Anchor tattooed to my arm?

Regards,

George Clay

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

It's not about the outward appearance, its what is in the inside of your temple that matters. Is your temple housing a holy spirit or some other spirit? We can look exceptionally beautiful on the outside, yet be filled with death and decay on the inside.

The line is Love. Are you using the law to bless others or as a way to feel superior? If you are not filled with the Love of Christ, then all your works will be a curse to you. Two people will be doing the same thing but one will be saved and the other will go to hell. Why? Because one was motivated by love of God and others and the other was motivated by something else.

Place your focus on the inner vessel as opposed to the outward appearance. The line is Love. Either you have it or you are a walking corpse, doing dead works.

Certainly if one is puffed up with pride, even if they are outwardly righteous, they are not righteous. However, beyond that your logic falls apart. Just because doing good things to look righteous is bad, that doesn't make doing bad things good...even if lovingly.


Lovingly committing adultery still is not justified.....even if lovingly!

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Finrock,

It's not about the outward appearance, its what is in the inside of your temple that matters. Is your temple housing a holy spirit or some other spirit? We can look exceptionally beautiful on the outside, yet be filled with death and decay on the inside.

The line is Love. Are you using the law to bless others or as a way to feel superior? If you are not filled with the Love of Christ, then all your works will be a curse to you. Two people will be doing the same thing but one will be saved and the other will go to hell. Why? Because one was motivated by love of God and others and the other was motivated by something else.

Place your focus on the inner vessel as opposed to the outward appearance. The line is Love. Either you have it or you are a walking corpse, doing dead works.

Certainly if one is puffed up with pride, even if they are outwardly righteous, they are not righteous. However, beyond that your logic falls apart. Just because doing good things to look righteous is bad, that doesn't make doing bad things good...even if lovingly.


Lovingly committing adultery still is not justified.....even if lovingly!

Regards,

George Clay

Is this a serious response? Do you actually believe that being motivated by Love of God and others equates to such concepts as lovingly committing adultery? What does that even mean? You've equivocated.

If you don't have charity then you are doing dead works. You can go through all the motions of being a TBM and whatever that entails but if you have enmity, you are a beautiful sepulchre with a dead and rotting corpse inside. If you aren't motivated by love of God and others then you are not on the right path, no matter how perfectly you live every law and tenet of our religion.

A man with a tattoo who smokes cigarettes but loves his neighbor and his enemies is living more righteously than a TBM who goes to church every Sunday, pays their tithing, strives to do their callings, obeys the word if wisdom, does their HT, etc., but doesn't have the love of God in His heart and has enmity towards outsiders and feels superior because of their strict adherence to the laws and striving to be the picture perfect Mormon. There are many motivations for acting and doing good works, but only a pure heart filled with the Love of Christ is justified in their good works. A bitter fountain cannot produce sweet water.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

e·quiv·o·cate
[əˈkwivəˌkāt]
VERB

use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself:
"“Not that we are aware of,” she equivocated"
synonyms: prevaricate · be evasive · be noncommittal · be vague · [more]

How am I using ambiguous language and what am I concealing?

You are the one always offering false choices!

A man with a tattoo who smokes cigarettes but loves his neighbor and his enemies is living more righteously than a TBM who goes to church every Sunday, pays their tithing, strives to do their callings, obeys the word if wisdom, does their HT, etc., but doesn't have the love of God in His heart and has enmity towards outsiders and feels superior because of their strict adherence to the laws and striving to be the picture perfect Mormon. There are many motivations for acting and doing good works, but only a pure heart filled with the Love of Christ is justified in their good works. A bitter fountain cannot produce sweet water.

You are either equivocating yourself, or just repeating over, and over, and over , and over the same stupid false choice!

While you are not justified in commiting vartious sins, the other choice is not to do the right thing so that you can feel superior.

The real right choice is to do the right thing honestly and with true intent., But you don't accept that option


... unless... you are accusing ME of

but doesn't have the love of God in His heart and has enmity towards outsiders and feels superior because of their strict adherence to the laws and striving to be the picture perfect Mormon

but you don't have the cojones to say so directly so you ...equivocate... hmmmm?


Regards,

George Clay

[Suntumbler]

The Two Comforters, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,comp. Joseph Fielding Smith (SLC: Deseret Book Co., 1938), 149-151.

There are two Comforters spoken of. One is the Holy Ghost, the same as given on the day of Pentecost, and that all Saints receive after faith, repentance, and baptism. This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence.

The Second Comforter

The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest, and perhaps understood by few of this generation. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted.

When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses.

Note the 16, 17, 18, 21, 23 verses-

Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions--Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn.

The Spirit of Revelation

The Spirit of Revelation is in connection with these blessings. A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.,) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.

[Finrock]

Finrock,

e·quiv·o·cate
[əˈkwivəˌkāt]
VERB

use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself:
"“Not that we are aware of,” she equivocated"
synonyms: prevaricate · be evasive · be noncommittal · be vague · [more]

How am I using ambiguous language and what am I concealing?

You are the one always offering false choices!

A man with a tattoo who smokes cigarettes but loves his neighbor and his enemies is living more righteously than a TBM who goes to church every Sunday, pays their tithing, strives to do their callings, obeys the word if wisdom, does their HT, etc., but doesn't have the love of God in His heart and has enmity towards outsiders and feels superior because of their strict adherence to the laws and striving to be the picture perfect Mormon. There are many motivations for acting and doing good works, but only a pure heart filled with the Love of Christ is justified in their good works. A bitter fountain cannot produce sweet water.

You are either equivocating yourself, or just repeating over, and over, and over , and over the same stupid false choice!

While you are not justified in commiting vartious sins, the other choice is not to do the right thing so that you can feel superior.

The real right choice is to do the right thing honestly and with true intent., But you don't accept that option


... unless... you are accusing ME of

but doesn't have the love of God in His heart and has enmity towards outsiders and feels superior because of their strict adherence to the laws and striving to be the picture perfect Mormon

but you don't have the cojones to say so directly so you ...equivocate... hmmmm?


Regards,

George Clay

Using an ambiguous term in more than one sense, thus making an argument misleading.

Here is how you equivocated...

In my post I was quite unambiguously making the claim that if our actions or works are not motivated by Love/Charity then we are not acting in righteousness no matter what we are doing. In your response you ignored my usage of the word Love and you ignored my whole point, you then further changed the case of the word I used (from Love to lovingly) and finally you used a misleading or alternate usage of the word Love/Charity/Pure Love of Christ in an attempt to argue that my position isn't logically tenable. You built a caricature of what I really said by making some absurd argument that I didn't make using an equivocation that resulted in a straw man argument.

I am speaking about universal principles that apply to all. Please do not accuse me of things I have not done unless you can back up your assertion about me with facts and please do not attack me personally and try to malign my character. Also, please do not speak to me using vulgar language with references to my testicles or any of my other sexual organs/parts.

My point still stands and my position is very important and critical to understanding what it means to act righteously. If we are not motivated by Love/Charity/Pure Love of Christ, then our actions are a curse against us. People who have love of God and of others are on the right path. People can be motivated by many different reasons in trying to obey the laws and tenets of our religion, but the one and true motivation that will save us is being motivated by love of God and others. You can go through all of the motions of doing all of the things a "good" Mormon ought to do, yet if you have not Love, you are nothing and truly just doing dead works. The law and the prophets all point to Charity/Love. Our outward works and outward appearances don't matter, but the condition of our hearts does. Using the poetic language of scripture and your reference to us being temples I want to let you know that our body is a temple that houses either a Holy Spirit or an Unholy Spirit. The outside of our temple and how it appears is irrelevant to the inside of our temple, meaning, the condition of our heart, meaning the condition of our spirit, meaning, are we filled with love of God and love for others.

Now, If you have something to contribute in sincerity, I look forward to interacting with you. If you are going to use rhetorical devices to troll, use vulgar references to my sexual organs, and/or try to distract from my point and to attack me personally, I will ignore you and report your posts.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

My point still stands and my position is very important and critical to understanding what it means to act righteously. If we are not motivated by Love/Charity/Pure Love of Christ, then our actions are a curse against us. People who have love of God and of others are on the right path. People can be motivated by many different reasons in trying to obey the laws and tenets of our religion, but the one and true motivation that will save us is being motivated by love of God and others. You can go through all of the motions of doing all of the things a "good" Mormon ought to do, yet if you have not Love, you are nothing and truly just doing dead works. The law and the prophets all point to Charity/Love. Our outward works and outward appearances don't matter, but the condition of our hearts does. Using the poetic language of scripture and your reference to us being temples I want to let you know that our body is a temple that houses either a Holy Spirit or an Unholy Spirit. The outside of our temple and how it appears is irrelevant to the inside of our temple, meaning, the condition of our heart, meaning the condition of our spirit, meaning, are we filled with love of God and love for others.

Nobody is saying that it is OK to be hypocritical, proud, or to go through the motions of doing right. You make this knee jerk response to any suggestion that one would do well to follow the Prophet, or the leaders of the LDS church, as if you are contending against TBMs as if you are saying that it is OK to do evil things as long as it is done with love, but following the Prophet is bad because it means that one is proud and judgmental.

Yet you respond this way over, and over and over and over, as if you are, responding to some fallacy in the argument to follow the guidance of the prophet, the leaders of the church or maybe the instructions one might find on LDS.ord.

So if you are not equivocating yourself, are you simply repeating something that nobody disagrees with over and over as a knee jerk reaction every time somebody suggests following the prophet, or the good information one can find at LDS.or, or am I really (and I am serious about this ) too stupid to figure out the point you are really trying to make?


Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Finrock,

My point still stands and my position is very important and critical to understanding what it means to act righteously. If we are not motivated by Love/Charity/Pure Love of Christ, then our actions are a curse against us. People who have love of God and of others are on the right path. People can be motivated by many different reasons in trying to obey the laws and tenets of our religion, but the one and true motivation that will save us is being motivated by love of God and others. You can go through all of the motions of doing all of the things a "good" Mormon ought to do, yet if you have not Love, you are nothing and truly just doing dead works. The law and the prophets all point to Charity/Love. Our outward works and outward appearances don't matter, but the condition of our hearts does. Using the poetic language of scripture and your reference to us being temples I want to let you know that our body is a temple that houses either a Holy Spirit or an Unholy Spirit. The outside of our temple and how it appears is irrelevant to the inside of our temple, meaning, the condition of our heart, meaning the condition of our spirit, meaning, are we filled with love of God and love for others.

Nobody is saying that it is OK to be hypocritical, proud, or to go through the motions of doing right. You make this knee jerk response to any suggestion that one would do well to follow the Prophet, or the leaders of the LDS church, as if you are contending against TBMs as if you are saying that it is OK to do evil things as long as it is done with love, but following the Prophet is bad because it means that one is proud and judgmental.

Yet you respond this way over, and over and over and over, as if you are, responding to some fallacy in the argument to follow the guidance of the prophet, the leaders of the church or maybe the instructions one might find on LDS.ord.

So if you are not equivocating yourself, are you simply repeating something that nobody disagrees with over and over as a knee jerk reaction every time somebody suggests following the prophet, or the good information one can find at LDS.or, or am I really (and I am serious about this ) too stupid to figure out the point you are really trying to make?


Regards,

George Clay

You asked the following of Obrien:

So I guess your body is not a temple. Where do you draw the line? Coffee? Alcohol? Marijuana? Hard Drugs? self mutilation?

Where is the line?

Regards,

George Clay

My answer is that the line is Love. Love is a true principle. It is the principle. Everything we do in the gospel, our whole life, is intended to teach us how to have Love or the Pure Love of Christ. Some things are critical to this goal, others things no so much. Some actions, some conduct, some behaviors and Love cannot coexist. Other actions, conduct, and behaviors can coexist with Love. I think many Mormons have a tendency to judge the worth or value or goodness of a person based on the Mormon Do's and Don'ts, very much like and almost identical to how the ancient Israelites used the law of Moses and their traditions as a means to measure who was good and who was evil. And, so you can go through this whole list of behaviors and be doing all of the things that a "good" Mormon should do, and not have true charity. We put a lot of stock in to things such as dressing in white shirts, wearing ties to Church, being clean shaven, and other things like that. We have the Word of Wisdom and we, speaking generally, often use this to judge a person and how close they are to Christ. There are people who are Mormons who absolutely believe that if you smoke cigarettes you are going to hell. The reality is that having the pure love of Christ and smoking cigarettes are not mutually exclusive. You can in reality do both. What is the whole point of all of these laws and all of these rules and all of these commandments? Many Mormons believe that these rules and laws and these commandments are there to prove how good a person is. The harder they are striving to keep all of these rules, the better that person is. Keep in mind I'm speaking generally now so this doesn't apply across the board, but it applies enough that I am justified in making this general statement. But, the general idea is that a really good person is going to be doing or not doing all of these good Mormon actions, conducts, or behaviors and all too often the focus is on the outward performance. The appearance of good. We can do our home teaching and not love God or love others. We can do our home teaching and love God and love others. That is why I said two people can be doing the same thing but one will go to hell and the other will go to heaven, because it comes down to the person's heart.

You can have tattoos, wear earrings, wear tank tops, drink alcohol, use tobacco, and be filled with the pure love of Christ. The Mormon paradigm and Mormon traditions and Mormon norms are not the measure of who is or is not filled with the love of Christ. In the end, we cannot know. We cannot look upon our fellow man and because they do not belong to our group and because they do not adhere to our traditions and judge them. Now, as I mentioned, certain acts are in fact incompatible with the pure love of Christ. You cannot commit adultery and be filled with Charity. There is no way to lovingly commit adultery. That idea is nonsensical. Being filled with Love/Charity does have discernible signs, but they are not at all based on Mormon traditions and paradigms. We can find the fruits of Love or the fruits of the Spirit detailed in the scriptures. These fruits are respect, kindness, selflessness, peace, freedom, liberty, gentleness, meekness, humility, and others.

God is greater than the Mormon paradigm. We aren't the only children of His on this planet and using our cultural norms, traditions, and paradigms as a means to measure righteousness if folly. Love is the measure. Are you filled with the pure love of Christ? If so, you are doing well, even if you aren't following all of the do's and don'ts of Mormondom. Focus on love, not the outward vessel or the outward performances or the outward ordinances. They are not as important as being truly converted to Christ and not everyone who is truly converted to Christ will act and be like a Mormon.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

You can have tattoos, wear earrings, wear tank tops, drink alcohol, use tobacco, and be filled with the pure love of Christ. The Mormon paradigm and Mormon traditions and Mormon norms are not the measure of who is or is not filled with the love of Christ.

True, but irrelevant. You somehow seem to think that Charity or the pure Love of Christ, and following commandments are mutually exclusive. I can think of no other reason why every time someone suggests, finding out the Truth in many ways including the words of the prophet, the knowledge in LDS org, you immediately slam them as if that is CONTRARY to seeking the Pure Love of Christ. Why else to you always bring that up as if they are mutually exclusive ideas?

However, if you look more carefully, not only are they not mutually exclusive events. It actually IS IMPORTANT to seek out truth and knowledge, especially from the Lord's anointed prophet, and other sources provided for us. If you read

Moroni 7:42-45

42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.

43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.

44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.

45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

You will see that One with Charity.. the Pure love of Christ does not rejoice in iniquity and rejoices in truth. One might say that one with Charity Seeks out truth.

So can one with Tattoos, or who drinks alcohol, or uses tobacco, be filled with the pure love of Christ? Yes, if they do not know better. But not if they do. By the way, avoiding learning the truth doesn't cut it either, because one who is filled with the Pure love of Christ will seek it out.'


Regards,

George Clay