Making Your Calling and Election Sure

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diligently seeking
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1272

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by diligently seeking »

Older/wiser? wrote:I am not doubting that there are those who have Seen our Lord, I to have written sacred things in my Journals, (which may one day be considered scripture). I guess I get bothered when people go on forums and share details that an experience so sacred, then becomes a detailed account. I notice moroni states " I have seen Jesus", He does not describe what it felt like to his body, the experience in detail or anything else about this personal experience. For every true experience , I also assume there are false ones, as shown in Moses, and Adams account.

Helaman 5
41 And Aminadab said unto them: You must repent, and cry unto the voice, even until ye shall have faith in Christ, who was taught unto you by Alma, and Amulek, and Zeezrom; and when ye shall do this, the cloud of darkness shall be removed from overshadowing you.

42 And it came to pass that they all did begin to cry unto the voice of him who had shaken the earth; yea, they did cry even until the cloud of darkness was dispersed.

43And it came to pass that when they cast their eyes about, and saw that the cloud of darkness was dispersed from overshadowing them, behold, they saw that they were encircled about, yea every soul, by a pillar of fire.

44 And Nephi and Lehi were in the midst of them; yea, they were encircled about; yea, they were as if in the midst of a flaming fire, yet it did harm them not, neither did it take hold upon the walls of the prison; and they were filled with that joy which is unspeakable and full of glory.

45And behold, the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven, and did enter into their hearts, and they were filled as if with fire, and they could speak forth marvelous words.

46 And it came to pass that there came a voice unto them, yea, a pleasant voice, as if it were a whisper, saying:

47 Peace, peace be unto you, because of your faith in my Well Beloved, who was from the foundation of the world.

48 And now, when they heard this they cast up their eyes as if to behold from whence the voice came; and behold, they saw the heavens open; and angels came down out of heaven and ministered unto them.

49 And there were about three hundred souls who saw and heard these things; and they were bidden to go forth and marvel not, neither should they doubt.

50 And it came to pass that they did go forth, and did minister unto the people, declaring throughout all the regions round about all the things which they had heard and seen, insomuch that the more part of the Lamanites were convinced of them, because of the greatness of the evidences which they had received.

51 And as many as were convinced did lay down their weapons of war, and also their hatred and the tradition of their fathers.

52And it came to pass that they did yield up unto the Nephites the lands of their possession.

diligently seeking
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1272

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by diligently seeking »

Older/wiser? wrote:I am not doubting that there are those who have Seen our Lord, I to have written sacred things in my Journals, (which may one day be considered scripture). I guess I get bothered when people go on forums and share details that an experience so sacred, then becomes a detailed account. I notice moroni states " I have seen Jesus", He does not describe what it felt like to his body, the experience in detail or anything else about this personal experience. For every true experience , I also assume there are false ones, as shown in Moses, and Adams account.
John 14:
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

diligently seeking
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1272

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by diligently seeking »

Older/wiser? wrote:I am not doubting that there are those who have Seen our Lord, I to have written sacred things in my Journals, (which may one day be considered scripture). I guess I get bothered when people go on forums and share details that an experience so sacred, then becomes a detailed account. I notice moroni states " I have seen Jesus", He does not describe what it felt like to his body, the experience in detail or anything else about this personal experience. For every true experience , I also assume there are false ones, as shown in Moses, and Adams account.
Mosiah 4
1 And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had made an end of speaking the words which had been delivered unto him by the angel of the Lord, that he cast his eyes round about on the multitude, and behold they had fallen to the earth, for the fear of the Lord had come upon them.

2 And they had viewed themselves in their own carnal state, even less than the dust of the earth. And they all cried aloud with one voice, saying: O have mercy, and apply the atoning blood of Christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins, and our hearts may be purified; for we believe in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who created heaven and earth, and all things; who shall come down among the children of men.

3 And it came to pass that after they had spoken these words the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, and they were filled with joy, having received a remission of their sins, and having peace of conscience, because of the exceeding faith which they had in Jesus Christ who should come, according to the words which king Benjamin had spoken unto them...

...20 And behold, even at this time, ye have been calling on his name, and begging for a remission of your sins. And has he suffered that ye have begged in vain? Nay; he has poured out his Spirit upon you, and has caused that your hearts should be filled with joy, and has caused that your mouths should be stopped that ye could not find utterance, so exceedingly great was your joy.

diligently seeking
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1272

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by diligently seeking »

Older/wiser? wrote:I am not doubting that there are those who have Seen our Lord, I to have written sacred things in my Journals, (which may one day be considered scripture). I guess I get bothered when people go on forums and share details that an experience so sacred, then becomes a detailed account. I notice moroni states " I have seen Jesus", He does not describe what it felt like to his body, the experience in detail or anything else about this personal experience. For every true experience , I also assume there are false ones, as shown in Moses, and Adams account.
Alma 36:

My son, give ear to my words; for I swear unto you, that inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land.

2 I would that ye should do as I have done, in remembering the captivity of our fathers; for they were in bondage, and none could deliver them except it was the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and he surely did deliver them in their afflictions.

3 And now, O my son Helaman, behold, thou art in thy youth, and therefore, I beseech of thee that thou wilt hear my words and learn of me; for I do know that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions, and shall be lifted up at the last day.

4 And I would not that ye think that I know of myself—not of the temporal but of the spiritual, not of the carnal mind but of God.

5 Now, behold, I say unto you, if I had not been born of God I should not have known these things; but God has, by the mouth of his holy angel, made these things known unto me, not of any worthiness of myself;

6 For I went about with the sons of Mosiah, seeking to destroy the church of God; but behold, God sent his holy angel to stop us by the way.

7 And behold, he spake unto us, as it were the voice of thunder, and the whole earth did tremble beneath our feet; and we all fell to the earth, for the fear of the Lord came upon us.

8 But behold, the voice said unto me: Arise. And I arose and stood up, and beheld the angel.

9 And he said unto me: If thou wilt of thyself be destroyed, seek no more to destroy the church of God.

10 And it came to pass that I fell to the earth; and it was for the space of three days and three nights that I could not open my mouth, neither had I the use of my limbs.

11 And the angel spake more things unto me, which were heard by my brethren, but I did not hear them; for when I heard the words—If thou wilt be destroyed of thyself, seek no more to destroy the church of God—I was struck with such great fear and amazement lest perhaps I should be destroyed, that I fell to the earth and I did hear no more.

12 But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.

14Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.

14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

15 Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.

16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.

17 And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.

22 Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.

23 But behold, my limbs did receive their strength again, and I stood upon my feet, and did manifest unto the people that I had been born of God.

24 Yea, and from that time even until now, I have labored without ceasing, that I might bring souls unto repentance; that I might bring them to taste of the exceeding joy of which I did taste; that they might also be born of God, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

25Yea, and now behold, O my son, the Lord doth give me exceedingly great joy in the fruit of my labors;

26 For because of the word which he has imparted unto me, behold, many have been born of God, and have tasted as I have tasted, and have seen eye to eye as I have seen; therefore they do know of these things of which I have spoken, as I do know; and the knowledge which I have is of God.

27 And I have been supported under trials and troubles of every kind, yea, and in all manner of afflictions; yea, God has delivered me from prison, and from bonds, and from death; yea, and I do put my trust in him, and he will still deliver me.

28 And I know that he will raise me up at the last day, to dwell with him in glory; yea, and I will praise him forever, for he has brought our fathers out of Egypt, and he has swallowed up the Egyptians in the Red Sea; and he led them by his power into the promised land; yea, and he has delivered them out of bondage and captivity from time to time.
29 Yea, and he has also brought our fathers out of the land of Jerusalem; and he has also, by his everlasting power, delivered them out of bondage and captivity, from time to time even down to the present day; and I have always retained in remembrance their captivity; yea, and ye also ought to retain in remembrance, as I have done, their captivity.
30 But behold, my son, this is not all; for ye ought to know as I do know, that inasmuch as ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall prosper in the land; and ye ought to know also, that inasmuch as ye will not keep the commandments of God ye shall be cut off from his presence. Now this is according to his word.

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Mark
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6929

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Mark »

Older/wiser? wrote:
Mark wrote:Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.
Thanks Mark you stated what I have felt for so long, we live in a world of counterfeits , copies so close. People seem to tell of their experiences so freely, so sacred an experience , would one not hold it close. I know a man who has had such an experience, he stated it this way " I have tasted of His Goodness", as he spoke the Spirit bore witness to me of his experience, not him being so free with words. There is and old saying " Those who say don't know" , and "Those who Know don't say", .

I would like to comment further about something that older/wiser is pointing to regarding the casual nature/openness that many seem to display in discussing their personal spiritual experiences and particularly as it relates to having ones calling and election being made sure. John Pontius touches on this subject in his book when he said:


"In many ways the elect are in a new and strange world. They understand much, but are often constrained from speaking. The Spirit stops them from plainly testifying and teaching of these things unless the hearers are prepared. This is not because they absolutely must not be taught; indeed the opposite is true. The Holy Spirit strains to instill these truths in the soul of every spiritual seeker. The obstacle is that much of what they know cannot be taught because of its sacred nature, and because people are unprepared and even at times unwilling to learn and obey the simple truths that would make them the elect of God. God, in His mercy, generally will not give knowledge that condemns, preferring to wait until the candidate is fully prepared to benefit from the revealed truths.

The Holy Spirit also constrains from communicating these things because of their glorious sacred nature. It would be sacrilegious to inform someone of such a powerful blessing and then have the person ridicule it. Even feelings of doubt, envy, or jealousy on the part of the hearer places the glorious blessings in a "pearls before swine" setting. Thus the Spirit only gives sacred sanction when the heater is pure and can rejoice with you in these glorious blessings."

I very much agree with Bro Pontius on this. In fact inappropriate broadcasting of very sacred experiences can even be a good indicator of whether or not true revelation from the right source has in fact been received by the individual.

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

Mark wrote:
Older/wiser? wrote:
Mark wrote:Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.
Thanks Mark you stated what I have felt for so long, we live in a world of counterfeits , copies so close. People seem to tell of their experiences so freely, so sacred an experience , would one not hold it close. I know a man who has had such an experience, he stated it this way " I have tasted of His Goodness", as he spoke the Spirit bore witness to me of his experience, not him being so free with words. There is and old saying " Those who say don't know" , and "Those who Know don't say", .

I would like to comment further about something that older/wiser is pointing to regarding the casual nature/openness that many seem to display in discussing their personal spiritual experiences and particularly as it relates to having ones calling and election being made sure. John Pontius touches on this subject in his book when he said:


"In many ways the elect are in a new and strange world. They understand much, but are often constrained from speaking. The Spirit stops them from plainly testifying and teaching of these things unless the hearers are prepared. This is not because they absolutely must not be taught; indeed the opposite is true. The Holy Spirit strains to instill these truths in the soul of every spiritual seeker. The obstacle is that much of what they know cannot be taught because of its sacred nature, and because people are unprepared and even at times unwilling to learn and obey the simple truths that would make them the elect of God. God, in His mercy, generally will not give knowledge that condemns, preferring to wait until the candidate is fully prepared to benefit from the revealed truths.

The Holy Spirit also constrains from communicating these things because of their glorious sacred nature. It would be sacrilegious to inform someone of such a powerful blessing and then have the person ridicule it. Even feelings of doubt, envy, or jealousy on the part of the hearer places the glorious blessings in a "pearls before swine" setting. Thus the Spirit only gives sacred sanction when the heater is pure and can rejoice with you in these glorious blessings."

I very much agree with Bro Pontius on this. In fact inappropriate broadcasting of very sacred experiences can even be a good indicator of whether or not true revelation from the right source has in fact been received by the individual.
May I suggest that it is only you who has decided that something is inappropriate. Meaning, it is inappropriate for you because you are not use to it or it is not something that you feel comfortable doing. But, because you feel it is inappropriate, does it mean it is intrinsically inappropriate? Perhaps it's just your own bias, your own experiences in life that have placed this limit in your mind. If you feel it is inappropriate, then do not share but don't presume that because you feel that it is inappropriate that others will, should, or ought to feel it is in inappropriate as well. I think its even more folly for you to use your personal bias as a way to judge other people's experiences and to deny their testimonies or to think that sharing of these experiences is somehow a good indicator that it is not true revelation. Seem narrow minded and short sighted to me. In fact, seems absolutely silly to me to draw such a conclusion.

Its called confirmation bias. You feel it is inappropriate, therefore you will find and accept sources that support your bias. But, honestly, I can't see anything beyond people's personal opinion and personal preferences and/or their cultural norms to tell me that sharing experiences of one's calling and election is inappropriate. The best that you can say is that for you it is inappropriate and therefore you should act based on the dictates of your own conscience. You have no legitimacy, however, in extending the dictates of your conscience and enforcing it upon another sovereign, sentient being. Sure, you have every right to use this biased view of yours to judge others, but that doesn't make you right or righteous.

-Finrock

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gclayjr
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Posts: 2727
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by gclayjr »

Finrock,

Writing in the proud, thin skinned self righteous manner that you always do, I'm sure you will not be able to see the irony and inconsistency between these 2 posts of yours, but I am sure others will appreciate it.

1)
You should change your position at this time to reflect the reality that I'm not disaffected, disloyal, or apostate with the Church. I am in a position to assert what I am, but you are not in a position to judge what I am. If you continue with the implication or the assumption that I am not a TBM then our conversation ends because it cannot at that point be authentic.
2)
May I suggest that it is only you who has decided that something is inappropriate. Meaning, it is inappropriate for you because you are not use to it or it is not something that you feel comfortable doing. But, because you feel it is inappropriate, does it mean it is intrinsically inappropriate? Perhaps it's just your own bias, your own experiences in life that have placed this limit in your mind. If you feel it is inappropriate, then do not share but don't presume that because you feel that it is inappropriate that others will, should, or ought to feel it is in inappropriate as well. I think its even more folly for you to use your personal bias as a way to judge other people's experiences and to deny their testimonies or to think that sharing of these experiences is somehow a good indicator that it is not true revelation. Seem narrow minded and short sighted to me. In fact, seems absolutely silly to me to draw such a conclusion.

Its called confirmation bias. You feel it is inappropriate, therefore you will find and accept sources that support your bias. But, honestly, I can't see anything beyond people's personal opinion and personal preferences and/or their cultural norms to tell me that sharing experiences of one's calling and election is inappropriate. The best that you can say is that for you it is inappropriate and therefore you should act based on the dictates of your own conscience. You have no legitimacy, however, in extending the dictates of your conscience and enforcing it upon another sovereign, sentient being. Sure, you have every right to use this biased view of yours to judge others, but that doesn't make you right or righteous.
hmmmmm....

Regards,

George Clay

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Mark
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6929

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Mark »

Finrock wrote:
Mark wrote:
Older/wiser? wrote:
Mark wrote:Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.
Thanks Mark you stated what I have felt for so long, we live in a world of counterfeits , copies so close. People seem to tell of their experiences so freely, so sacred an experience , would one not hold it close. I know a man who has had such an experience, he stated it this way " I have tasted of His Goodness", as he spoke the Spirit bore witness to me of his experience, not him being so free with words. There is and old saying " Those who say don't know" , and "Those who Know don't say", .

I would like to comment further about something that older/wiser is pointing to regarding the casual nature/openness that many seem to display in discussing their personal spiritual experiences and particularly as it relates to having ones calling and election being made sure. John Pontius touches on this subject in his book when he said:


"In many ways the elect are in a new and strange world. They understand much, but are often constrained from speaking. The Spirit stops them from plainly testifying and teaching of these things unless the hearers are prepared. This is not because they absolutely must not be taught; indeed the opposite is true. The Holy Spirit strains to instill these truths in the soul of every spiritual seeker. The obstacle is that much of what they know cannot be taught because of its sacred nature, and because people are unprepared and even at times unwilling to learn and obey the simple truths that would make them the elect of God. God, in His mercy, generally will not give knowledge that condemns, preferring to wait until the candidate is fully prepared to benefit from the revealed truths.

The Holy Spirit also constrains from communicating these things because of their glorious sacred nature. It would be sacrilegious to inform someone of such a powerful blessing and then have the person ridicule it. Even feelings of doubt, envy, or jealousy on the part of the hearer places the glorious blessings in a "pearls before swine" setting. Thus the Spirit only gives sacred sanction when the heater is pure and can rejoice with you in these glorious blessings."

I very much agree with Bro Pontius on this. In fact inappropriate broadcasting of very sacred experiences can even be a good indicator of whether or not true revelation from the right source has in fact been received by the individual.
May I suggest that it is only you who has decided that something is inappropriate. Meaning, it is inappropriate for you because you are not use to it or it is not something that you feel comfortable doing. But, because you feel it is inappropriate, does it mean it is intrinsically inappropriate? Perhaps it's just your own bias, your own experiences in life that have placed this limit in your mind. If you feel it is inappropriate, then do not share but don't presume that because you feel that it is inappropriate that others will, should, or ought to feel it is in inappropriate as well. I think its even more folly for you to use your personal bias as a way to judge other people's experiences and to deny their testimonies or to think that sharing of these experiences is somehow a good indicator that it is not true revelation. Seem narrow minded and short sighted to me. In fact, seems absolutely silly to me to draw such a conclusion.

Its called confirmation bias. You feel it is inappropriate, therefore you will find and accept sources that support your bias. But, honestly, I can't see anything beyond people's personal opinion and personal preferences and/or their cultural norms to tell me that sharing experiences of one's calling and election is inappropriate. The best that you can say is that for you it is inappropriate and therefore you should act based on the dictates of your own conscience. You have no legitimacy, however, in extending the dictates of your conscience and enforcing it upon another sovereign, sentient being. Sure, you have every right to use this biased view of yours to judge others, but that doesn't make you right or righteous.

-Finrock

So typical. Instead of addressing the points made by John Pontius in my quote of him You pick out one summation word of my post as it pertains to communicating sacred things to others and then go on to lecture me about the inappropriate nature of my use of the word "inappropriate". It appears to me you are more interested in deflecting from his points than you are in addressing them honestly. So be it. I would normally just shut this conversation down but there is an important point I am trying to make here even if you are not interested in addressing it. I will use your own post you made on the Elliaison board to illustrate one of those points. After explaining your past sexual and emotional abuses at the hands of family members of which I was very sorry to hear of and then outlining your Spitirtual experience as you sought for relief from all your pain and suffering you then go on to explain how you received your calling and election made sure by saying this:

"My trials did not cease however, after this experience, but I was filled with great strength and giving power and knowledge that has allowed me to endure. One I had a particularly bad experience in my relationships. I felt totally abandoned, sorrow, and I was feeling alone again. I prayed to God and I asked Him to comfort me and that I needed His strength. It was during this prayer that I was again filled with the Spirit, but this time it was this engulfing feeling of warmth and love and tenderness and mercy and goodness and kindness. I knew it was Heavenly Mother. She entered my heart, knowing that I have been abandoned by my earthly mother, and she told me at that time that She would never abandon me. I felt and saw in my mind this image of Heavenly Mother busting through all the darkness and all crap that was there in my life and She was telling me that I had suffered enough and She would not have none of that any more. I felt and I knew at that point that I was now Hers. She comforted me and gave me relief. Enough was enough and I have been saved. I will not be abandoned again, not by Her. She will never abandon me. I did not immediately recognize this as my calling and election but as I continued to read and study and ponder the thought kept coming to me that I have been saved. Thanks, in part to what I had read from Amonhi, I put together this experience with my calling and election. I did not want to just be making something up and so I didn't commit to the thought for a long time. I didn't speak to anyone about it (except anonymously). I didn't want to commit to this being my C&E but as I continued to ponder and to pray in my heart, the thought just kept coming to me and my reasoning was, if Heavenly Mother is not going to abandon me and if I am Hers, how is this not an assurance of eternal life. Finally, I came to accept that this was indeed my C&E. I prayed and asked. But, more than anything else, I feel in my heart that I am saved. I feel in my heart that God will be there for me. I feel in my heart that He has accepted my sacrifice and I know that I will not abandon Him/Her just as They will not abandon me. I feel peace and an assurance of a promise made."

Now I am very happy for you that you found solace and relief from spiritual help you have received in your life from beyond the veil. That is a wonderful blessing for you. However as many on that forum have done you are apparently redefining what this doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure really means. I would again go back to the fundamental truths communicated by our Prophets on this doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure and just caution people not to attribute spiritual feelings and help with having this glorious promise made to us by Our Lord. I believe those like Amonhi are contributing to this redefinition by putting out short cut methods to facilitate this happening.

I would also point out the legitimacy of Bro. Pontius statement regarding sharing intimate spiritual experiences such as having ones calling and election made sure with those who are prepared to hear such sacred and holy things. There is much counsel that has been given for our benefit scripturally and through our Prophets outlining the value of protecting our sacred experiences from those unprepared to hear and understand them. Discernment is paramount as we do so.

Finrock
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4426

Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

Mark wrote:
Finrock wrote:
Mark wrote:
Older/wiser? wrote: Thanks Mark you stated what I have felt for so long, we live in a world of counterfeits , copies so close. People seem to tell of their experiences so freely, so sacred an experience , would one not hold it close. I know a man who has had such an experience, he stated it this way " I have tasted of His Goodness", as he spoke the Spirit bore witness to me of his experience, not him being so free with words. There is and old saying " Those who say don't know" , and "Those who Know don't say", .

I would like to comment further about something that older/wiser is pointing to regarding the casual nature/openness that many seem to display in discussing their personal spiritual experiences and particularly as it relates to having ones calling and election being made sure. John Pontius touches on this subject in his book when he said:


"In many ways the elect are in a new and strange world. They understand much, but are often constrained from speaking. The Spirit stops them from plainly testifying and teaching of these things unless the hearers are prepared. This is not because they absolutely must not be taught; indeed the opposite is true. The Holy Spirit strains to instill these truths in the soul of every spiritual seeker. The obstacle is that much of what they know cannot be taught because of its sacred nature, and because people are unprepared and even at times unwilling to learn and obey the simple truths that would make them the elect of God. God, in His mercy, generally will not give knowledge that condemns, preferring to wait until the candidate is fully prepared to benefit from the revealed truths.

The Holy Spirit also constrains from communicating these things because of their glorious sacred nature. It would be sacrilegious to inform someone of such a powerful blessing and then have the person ridicule it. Even feelings of doubt, envy, or jealousy on the part of the hearer places the glorious blessings in a "pearls before swine" setting. Thus the Spirit only gives sacred sanction when the heater is pure and can rejoice with you in these glorious blessings."

I very much agree with Bro Pontius on this. In fact inappropriate broadcasting of very sacred experiences can even be a good indicator of whether or not true revelation from the right source has in fact been received by the individual.
May I suggest that it is only you who has decided that something is inappropriate. Meaning, it is inappropriate for you because you are not use to it or it is not something that you feel comfortable doing. But, because you feel it is inappropriate, does it mean it is intrinsically inappropriate? Perhaps it's just your own bias, your own experiences in life that have placed this limit in your mind. If you feel it is inappropriate, then do not share but don't presume that because you feel that it is inappropriate that others will, should, or ought to feel it is in inappropriate as well. I think its even more folly for you to use your personal bias as a way to judge other people's experiences and to deny their testimonies or to think that sharing of these experiences is somehow a good indicator that it is not true revelation. Seem narrow minded and short sighted to me. In fact, seems absolutely silly to me to draw such a conclusion.

Its called confirmation bias. You feel it is inappropriate, therefore you will find and accept sources that support your bias. But, honestly, I can't see anything beyond people's personal opinion and personal preferences and/or their cultural norms to tell me that sharing experiences of one's calling and election is inappropriate. The best that you can say is that for you it is inappropriate and therefore you should act based on the dictates of your own conscience. You have no legitimacy, however, in extending the dictates of your conscience and enforcing it upon another sovereign, sentient being. Sure, you have every right to use this biased view of yours to judge others, but that doesn't make you right or righteous.

-Finrock

So typical. Instead of addressing the points made by John Pontius in my quote of him You pick out one summation word of my post as it pertains to communicating sacred things to others and then go on to lecture me about the inappropriate nature of my use of the word "inappropriate". It appears to me you are more interested in deflecting from his points than you are in addressing them honestly. So be it. I would normally just shut this conversation down but there is an important point I am trying to make here even if you are not interested in addressing it. I will use your own post you made on the Elliaison board to illustrate one of those points. After explaining your past sexual and emotional abuses at the hands of family members of which I was very sorry to hear of and then outlining your Spitirtual experience as you sought for relief from all your pain and suffering you then go on to explain how you received your calling and election made sure by saying this:

"My trials did not cease however, after this experience, but I was filled with great strength and giving power and knowledge that has allowed me to endure. One I had a particularly bad experience in my relationships. I felt totally abandoned, sorrow, and I was feeling alone again. I prayed to God and I asked Him to comfort me and that I needed His strength. It was during this prayer that I was again filled with the Spirit, but this time it was this engulfing feeling of warmth and love and tenderness and mercy and goodness and kindness. I knew it was Heavenly Mother. She entered my heart, knowing that I have been abandoned by my earthly mother, and she told me at that time that She would never abandon me. I felt and saw in my mind this image of Heavenly Mother busting through all the darkness and all crap that was there in my life and She was telling me that I had suffered enough and She would not have none of that any more. I felt and I knew at that point that I was now Hers. She comforted me and gave me relief. Enough was enough and I have been saved. I will not be abandoned again, not by Her. She will never abandon me. I did not immediately recognize this as my calling and election but as I continued to read and study and ponder the thought kept coming to me that I have been saved. Thanks, in part to what I had read from Amonhi, I put together this experience with my calling and election. I did not want to just be making something up and so I didn't commit to the thought for a long time. I didn't speak to anyone about it (except anonymously). I didn't want to commit to this being my C&E but as I continued to ponder and to pray in my heart, the thought just kept coming to me and my reasoning was, if Heavenly Mother is not going to abandon me and if I am Hers, how is this not an assurance of eternal life. Finally, I came to accept that this was indeed my C&E. I prayed and asked. But, more than anything else, I feel in my heart that I am saved. I feel in my heart that God will be there for me. I feel in my heart that He has accepted my sacrifice and I know that I will not abandon Him/Her just as They will not abandon me. I feel peace and an assurance of a promise made."

Now I am very happy for you that you found solace and relief from spiritual help you have received in your life from beyond the veil. That is a wonderful blessing for you. However as many on that forum have done you are apparently redefining what this doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure really means. I would again go back to the fundamental truths communicated by our Prophets on this doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure and just caution people not to attribute spiritual feelings and help with having this glorious promise made to us by Our Lord. I believe those like Amonhi are contributing to this redefinition by putting out short cut methods to facilitate this happening.

I would also point out the legitimacy of Bro. Pontius statement regarding sharing intimate spiritual experiences such as having ones calling and election made sure with those who are prepared to hear such sacred and holy things. There is much counsel that has been given for our benefit scripturally and through our Prophets outlining the value of protecting our sacred experiences from those unprepared to hear and understand them. Discernment is paramount as we do so.
I don't disagree with Pontius. However, clearly there are examples of individuals who have shared sacred spiritual experiences. We find them all over the scriptures. Detailed, intimate, spiritual experiences. I don't disagree with discernment. But, who is the judge as to what is or is not appropriate to share or when to share it? There are people who feel it is inappropriate for me to discuss my childhood abuse. It makes them feel uncomfortable. I use to feel uncomfortable doing it too. I didn't want to put myself out there and become a target of derision and of being misunderstood. However, I've overcome that particular vanity in my life. I'm willing to sacrifice my reputation and put it all on the line to testify of the goodness and greatness of God. I am not afraid of what others might think of me or how they might judge me because I know God has my back. I've been down that road of keeping myself closed up not allowing myself to be vulnerable and it did not produce good fruits. The Spirit prompts me to say and to testify and to share of the experiences that I have because ultimately they show the goodness and the greatness of God. I have my calling and I have my job and task to do in this life. You have yours. I won't judge you for not sharing intimate spiritual experiences or things in your life that show you are vulnerable. I understand that it takes courage and guts to reveal weaknesses for others to judge, to ridicule, or to mock. For you at this stage in your life it may be inappropriate, but to take your personal/cultural/societal centric view and then conclude from that view that it is intrinsically inappropriate to share intimate spiritual experiences is just silly. But, you take it a step further and make this circular argument that inappropriate broadcasting of sacred experiences is a good indicator that what is being communicated is false. That's nonsense, my friend.

Whatever I have written about my personal experiences has been as a result of the Holy Spirit prompting me to write it, therefore it is has not been inappropriate. When God says to do something, it is good and best to obey, despite the personal risks one might endure for doing so.

-Finrock

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AI2.0
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by AI2.0 »

Finrock wrote: I'm not interested in proving myself to you, AI2.0. I'm interested in a sincere dialogue. If you want to make assumptions and mischaracterize my words so that you can judge me, that is your problem, not my problem.

Maybe I'm not expressing myself as I like and clearly there is a disconnect in how you perceive my views. But I'm sincere and I'm ready to converse with any sincere party who is also interested in dialoging on equal terms. I'm ready to clarify anything that I've written with a person who is sincerely interested in understanding and dialoging. If you don't fit the bill, then don't participate. There are many others on this forum who are happy to engage in a sincere dialog.

If I'm constantly criticizing TBM, then I'm constantly criticizing myself. I'm not afraid to look in the mirror. But, you mischaracterize my words once more because I'm not constantly criticizing TBM. I'm criticizing pharisaical notions and dispositions and attempting to identify what in my view constitutes the true meaning of religion.

-Finrock
Your response below to Mark's sharing a quote with you, helped me determine the value of this discussion;
May I suggest that it is only you who has decided that something is inappropriate. Meaning, it is inappropriate for you because you are not use to it or it is not something that you feel comfortable doing. But, because you feel it is inappropriate, does it mean it is intrinsically inappropriate? Perhaps it's just your own bias, your own experiences in life that have placed this limit in your mind. If you feel it is inappropriate, then do not share but don't presume that because you feel that it is inappropriate that others will, should, or ought to feel it is in inappropriate as well. I think its even more folly for you to use your personal bias as a way to judge other people's experiences and to deny their testimonies or to think that sharing of these experiences is somehow a good indicator that it is not true revelation. Seem narrow minded and short sighted to me. In fact, seems absolutely silly to me to draw such a conclusion.

Its called confirmation bias. You feel it is inappropriate, therefore you will find and accept sources that support your bias. But, honestly, I can't see anything beyond people's personal opinion and personal preferences and/or their cultural norms to tell me that sharing experiences of one's calling and election is inappropriate. The best that you can say is that for you it is inappropriate and therefore you should act based on the dictates of your own conscience. You have no legitimacy, however, in extending the dictates of your conscience and enforcing it upon another sovereign, sentient being. Sure, you have every right to use this biased view of yours to judge others, but that doesn't make you right or righteous.

-Finrock
I had a stake president who taught me an important concept. Before he would share something he felt was of worth, he would ask "May I teach you something?" Because for it to be of any worth,the hearer needed to be open to what was going to be shared. What I learned is that you can't teach others things if they are so set in their own views/perceptions that they reject them outright.


You are either unwilling or incapable of considering the discussion from any other viewpoint than your own--in short, as to your participation on this forum, you've chosen to be 'unteachable'. Why? I don't know, maybe because your purpose here is to teach the rest of us, but not the other way around--it seems we have nothing to teach you.

So, thank you for the conservation up to this point, but I won't be continuing it with you.

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

Mark wrote:Now I am very happy for you that you found solace and relief from spiritual help you have received in your life from beyond the veil. That is a wonderful blessing for you. However as many on that forum have done you are apparently redefining what this doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure really means. I would again go back to the fundamental truths communicated by our Prophets on this doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure and just caution people not to attribute spiritual feelings and help with having this glorious promise made to us by Our Lord. I believe those like Amonhi are contributing to this redefinition by putting out short cut methods to facilitate this happening.
Thank you for being happy for me.

When I was a missionary and to this very day, I was taught and I taught those investigating the Church to not take my word for it. I invited them to ask God with faith and with sincerity, in the name of Jesus Christ, so that they could know that the things I was teaching them were true through their own experiences. We as Mormons ask people to explicitly and to only trust the spiritual feelings that they receive from the Holy Ghost. There is no other way for a person to know the truth of anything, be it if God is real, if the Book of Mormon is true, to if one has their calling and election, unless they have received a witness and a knowledge of these things by the power of the Holy Ghost. It is the Spirit that matters most. We invite people to make life altering decisions based purely on a spiritual feeling that they will receive in their hearts and in their minds if they ask God in faith and in sincerity to know the truth of all things.

There is not shortcut, but there are eternal principles that apply and we can rely on the Holy Ghost. We don't need to be afraid of the promptings of the Holy Ghost.

-Finrock

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

AI2.0 wrote: I had a stake president who taught me an important concept. Before he would share something he felt was of worth, he would ask "May I teach you something?" Because for it to be of any worth,the hearer needed to be open to what was going to be shared. What I learned is that you can't teach others things if they are so set in their own views/perceptions that they reject them outright.
Good counsel and a good way to approach people.
AI2.0 wrote:You are either unwilling or incapable of considering the discussion from any other viewpoint than your own--in short, as to your participation on this forum, you've chosen to be 'unteachable'. Why? I don't know, maybe because your purpose here is to teach the rest of us, but not the other way around--it seems we have nothing to teach you.
I do have things to teach others, especially the things that the Spirit has asked me to teach and to say. For sure I am a teacher for those who hear, I just don't always know who those people are. Some people don't have anything that they can teach me. Some people do have things that they can teach me.
AI2.0 wrote:So, thank you for the conservation up to this point, but I won't be continuing it with you.
You're welcome.

-Finrock

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Mark
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Mark »

Finrock wrote:
AI2.0 wrote: I had a stake president who taught me an important concept. Before he would share something he felt was of worth, he would ask "May I teach you something?" Because for it to be of any worth,the hearer needed to be open to what was going to be shared. What I learned is that you can't teach others things if they are so set in their own views/perceptions that they reject them outright.
Good counsel and a good way to approach people.
AI2.0 wrote:You are either unwilling or incapable of considering the discussion from any other viewpoint than your own--in short, as to your participation on this forum, you've chosen to be 'unteachable'. Why? I don't know, maybe because your purpose here is to teach the rest of us, but not the other way around--it seems we have nothing to teach you.
I do have things to teach others, especially the things that the Spirit has asked me to teach and to say. For sure I am a teacher for those who hear, I just don't always know who those people are. Some people don't have anything that they can teach me. Some people do have things that they can teach me.
AI2.0 wrote:So, thank you for the conservation up to this point, but I won't be continuing it with you.
You're welcome.

-Finrock

I have a suggestion for you Finrock and Amonhi and all the other people who feel a need to "teach" others about sacred and eternal doctrines of the gospel. Why not let the Spirit of the Lord be their teacher? Isn't that the proper way and method that has been set up by the Lord for people to learn the mysteries of the Kingdom? Point people to the Spirit and let Him teach them according to their level of preparation and faith. Don't supplant the true source of light and truth.


9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

diligently seeking
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by diligently seeking »

Mark, truth is-- in our mortal probation, according to our "level of preparation and faith / the softness or hardness of our heart" when truth is expounded according to how doctrine is expounded we will either be "illuminated(changed) by the LIGHT of the everlasting word" or will not.

It has been my heart hurting observation that every ward I have ever attended the majority of members (remember majority represents 51% or more) do not reflect "blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after rightousness for they shall be filled with the holy ghost". The majority will take what their Bishop expounds over the pulpit as truth vs knowing and being able to discern truth correctly because they ( along with what they're being taught in church) are independantly feasting upon the words of Christ which would teach them all things that they should do.. My bishop last Sunday said we are agents unto our selves to affect change and that we should not soley rely on the grace of Christ. He loves to talk about ascending through work work and work. He speaks around the edges of the atonement.

What a blessing to have our level of faith and preparation be to the point where we can move forward to know truth by the witness of the spirit vs being spoon fed through, too often, the falability of the flesh.


D&C84
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written

D&C 93:

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the LIGHT.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the LIGHT is under condemnation.

Edit: make no mistakes my Bishop is a good man. It simply is too easy for myself / the least saint all the way to upper echelon ranks of church to error for one reason or another... Christ is the sure rock that we should be founded upon. All other foundations are sand. All the more reason to be learned through study and prayer and fasting-- filled with the gifts of the spirit and free flow of pure intelligence like the sons of Mosiah were = SURE DISCERNMENT ! :)

Alma 17
1 And now it came to pass that as Alma was journeying from the land of Gideon southward, away to the land of Manti, behold, to his astonishment, he met with the sons of Mosiah journeying towards the land of Zarahemla.
2 Now these sons of Mosiah were with Alma at the time the angel first appeared unto him; therefore Alma did rejoice exceedingly to see his brethren; and what added more to his joy, they were still his brethren in the Lord; yea, and they had waxed strong in the knowledge of the truth; for they were men of a sound understanding and they had searched the scriptures diligently, that they might know the word of God.
3 But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God...
Last edited by diligently seeking on February 25th, 2017, 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

diligently seeking
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by diligently seeking »

2 Nephi 31
18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

19 And now, my beloved brethren, after ye have gotten into this strait and narrow path, I would ask if all is done? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far save it were by the word of Christ with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save.

20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

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marc
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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by marc »

Mark's advice to let the Spirit be our guide is good. Sometimes, though, one is moved upon by the Spirit to bear witness of one's experience and let people take it or leave it. I still feel moved upon by the Spirit to offer up my witness from time to time.
D&C 123:13 Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven—
14 These should then be attended to with great earnestness.
15 Let no man count them as small things; for there is much which lieth in futurity, pertaining to the saints, which depends upon these things.

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by marc »

brianj wrote:This is purely semantic, but I have difficulty with the phrase make/making your calling and election sure. We can't make anything sure, only the Lord can do so.I strongly desire to have my calling and election made sure, and I hope that I am worthy of that blessing while in mortality.
I just read this. We can indeed make it sure, else the apostle Peter and Joseph Smith would not have said so. Although only God can save us, it is we who must choose to be saved. It is we who must choose to act while in the flesh. We must desire it and not only desire it but come unto it. We must obey and labor and sacrifice. If we are to be acted upon, we must first act. Hoping alone is insufficient.

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by BackBlast »

With some trepidation I'm am going to poke my toes in the pool here.
AI2.0 wrote: February 22nd, 2017, 6:53 pm I think I've found where you and the church deviate on this subject. You seem to think that a person who has their calling and election made sure will still be just as flawed and tempted as the rest of us. So, you assume that a person who's seen Christ will still have a normal desire to sin and will most likely follow through.
They will be flawed and continue to be tempted like the rest of us. This gift doesn't fundamentally change their natures. Just like the bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, though a new creature, they continue to be flawed and to be tempted. In this case, they receive a promise, not a change. The change that removes the ability to be tempted is translation, described in 3rd Nephi 28:39
39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.
The other 9 Nephite apostles received promises of eternal life, and they did not receive this change.

The previously mentioned continued ability to fall back into various sins is retained. The difference being, the Lord knows that this person will eventually return, overcome and accept any difficulties in doing so along the way. Save for unrecoverable sins. To put it one way, they will accept and respond to their divine spankings, if or as needed. Thus He is willing to make the promise to them.

It does not follow that all who receive this promise advance to be like the Father at the same rate or have equivalent divine characters to attain it. We remain individuals and are treated individually. Agency and obedience to the laws that blessings are contingent upon continue as they have at the other stages of our lives.

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by Finrock »

BackBlast wrote: March 9th, 2017, 2:40 pm With some trepidation I'm am going to poke my toes in the pool here.
AI2.0 wrote: February 22nd, 2017, 6:53 pm I think I've found where you and the church deviate on this subject. You seem to think that a person who has their calling and election made sure will still be just as flawed and tempted as the rest of us. So, you assume that a person who's seen Christ will still have a normal desire to sin and will most likely follow through.
They will be flawed and continue to be tempted like the rest of us. This gift doesn't fundamentally change their natures. Just like the bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, though a new creature, they continue to be flawed and to be tempted. In this case, they receive a promise, not a change. The change that removes the ability to be tempted is translation, described in 3rd Nephi 28:39
39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.
The other 9 Nephite apostles received promises of eternal life, and they did not receive this change.

The previously mentioned continued ability to fall back into various sins is retained. The difference being, the Lord knows that this person will eventually return, overcome and accept any difficulties in doing so along the way. Save for unrecoverable sins. To put it one way, they will accept and respond to their divine spankings, if or as needed. Thus He is willing to make the promise to them.

It does not follow that all who receive this promise advance to be like the Father at the same rate or have equivalent divine characters to attain it. We remain individuals and are treated individually. Agency and obedience to the laws that blessings are contingent upon continue as they have at the other stages of our lives.
Good points. Thanks for sharing.

-Finrock

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Re: Making Your Calling and Election Sure

Post by diligently seeking »

BackBlast wrote: March 9th, 2017, 2:40 pm With some trepidation I'm am going to poke my toes in the pool here.
AI2.0 wrote: February 22nd, 2017, 6:53 pm I think I've found where you and the church deviate on this subject. You seem to think that a person who has their calling and election made sure will still be just as flawed and tempted as the rest of us. So, you assume that a person who's seen Christ will still have a normal desire to sin and will most likely follow through.
They will be flawed and continue to be tempted like the rest of us. This gift doesn't fundamentally change their natures. Just like the bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, though a new creature, they continue to be flawed and to be tempted. In this case, they receive a promise, not a change. The change that removes the ability to be tempted is translation, described in 3rd Nephi 28:39
39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.
The other 9 Nephite apostles received promises of eternal life, and they did not receive this change.

The previously mentioned continued ability to fall back into various sins is retained. The difference being, the Lord knows that this person will eventually return, overcome and accept any difficulties in doing so along the way. Save for unrecoverable sins. To put it one way, they will accept and respond to their divine spankings, if or as needed. Thus He is willing to make the promise to them.

It does not follow that all who receive this promise advance to be like the Father at the same rate or have equivalent divine characters to attain it. We remain individuals and are treated individually. Agency and obedience to the laws that blessings are contingent upon continue as they have at the other stages of our lives.
Great stuff! Thank you for sharing. :)

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