Making Your Calling and Election Sure

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

You say that an article from LDS.org completely refutes MY assertion? I did reference the scripture in my original post. Secondly, the article did not completely refute what the scriptures say. Read the scriptures for yourself. I underlined and put in bold the portions that say that if a person who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise commits any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant WHATEVER, and ALL manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter in to their exaltation.

I had my Ubuntu system crash this morning and was unable to get it back up until now. I prepared a response to this, but I think Mark did a good careful response above. So at least for now, I will simply refer you to his post above.

Regards,

George Clay

[marc]

Every time I check up on the forum it's like Déia vu. The same people arguing about the same things using the same reasoning talking past each other. It's rather mind blowing that apparently nobody has changed their stance on these topics over the past 5 years that I've followed this forum
@-)

It is a good topic, though, and a worthwhile discussion. The arguments arise particularly because a number of people do not experience it or do not seek it and can only attempt to understand it either from someone who has experienced it, like Joseph Smith, or the many who quote him, though they may have never experienced it.

28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

Books and books of scholarly works have been written and prophets can be quoted by learned men who can explain the doctrine backwards and forwards as experienced by others such as Nephi and Joseph Smith, but themselves never experience it because they never enter in at the way. To hearken unto the counsels of God is to live by every word, which proceeds from his mouth to you. Seldom do learned men enter in at the way. They do not make the sacrifices necessary (LoF 6). More often are publicans, fishermen, and plow boys entering in.

It is a very individual affair. Nobody can seek Jesus' face for you. Not Joseph Smith, not Hugh Nibley, Not Bruce R. McConkie or Thomas S. Monson...only you. Ironically, Christians and especially we Mormons tend to spend what little effort we exercise to know Jesus through someone else, spending by far more time in the audience of class teachers, speakers over the pulpit, general conference speakers, bishops, missionaries, hometeachers, neighbors, etc than God Himself in solitude and supplication and scripture study. Countless books have been written over the decades dedicated to "making the scriptures easier" reinventing the wheel and falling short. I submit that First and Second Nephi suffice in revealing the fullness of the gospel and the pattern to attaining the same. As a matter of fact, the first seventeen chapters in First Nephi suffice, but are summarized succinctly in Second Nephi chapters 31 and 32. One can discard all the commentaries ever written on the subject and still obtain sufficient information here to begin and/or continue their individual journeys. But why do they not do it?

7 And now I, Nephi, cannot say more; the Spirit stoppeth mine utterance, and I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness, even as plain as word can be.

8 And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

[diligently seeking]

Isn't this an ordinance? IMHO having your C&E made sure is not something you seek after.

I believe it's as literal as this verse:

Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

We can see examples of this happening with Enos (Enos 1), Alma (Mosiah 26), and others. I know there's the 2nd Anointing, but I honestly don't know how that all fits in. For me, I would think that hearing God promise you eternal life would be sufficient.

As for thinking it's wrong to seek that promise, I'll side with Alma:

Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.

And Lamoni's father:

O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day.

Having your calling and election made sure is the promise that you will receive these blessings. How could a person want these things, but not want a promise of it from God? I simply don't understand how a person can have that kind of contradictory thinking in their head. I don't seek office in the church, but I certainly do seek eternal life. I've made covenants with God because I want the blessings God promises through them. How can that possibly be wrong, when it's the whole entire purpose for us being born?

I'm not sure how it all fits together either. I seek to be righteous and nothing more. I'd go nuts if I was chasing eternal life, the celestial kingdom, my calling and election made sure. I'm just happy living day to day in the gospel.

To seek the promise of eternal life is to continualy obtain some of God's perfections, attributes, and character along the way. It is to be made more alive in Christ. It is to feel and comprehend and desire that which Enos desired felt and comprehended :
...3Behold, I went to hunt beasts in the forests; and the words which I had often heard my father speak concerning eternal life, and the joy of the saints, sunk deep into my heart...

It is to know what it means to have his love shed it self abroad in your heart. 1nephi 11:21,22,23

It is as a result of these blessings to be made more whole etc.

Reference Mosiah 2-5 to better understand why one should transcend membership status and become actual Saints. Understand and be reminded through these chapters how one becomes a Saint / born of God / only then are we on the path that leads to Eternal life. Understand how at that Joyous destination point the last verse of King Benjamin's sermon his counsel which seems like it would drive you nuts (Mosiah 5:15) will resonate with you if you truly are Christ's spiritual offspring.

I tell you soberly to understand differently is to not have yet been born of God. It is to feel all is well in Zion...

You got this! seek and obtain. Be motivated and take courage by reading all the "contrite spirit" scriptures found in bible topical guide; there are only a few of them. Love and great hope for you and all of us through Christ! JB

[AI2.0]

Finrock,

It's not about the outward appearance, its what is in the inside of your temple that matters. Is your temple housing a holy spirit or some other spirit? We can look exceptionally beautiful on the outside, yet be filled with death and decay on the inside.

The line is Love. Are you using the law to bless others or as a way to feel superior? If you are not filled with the Love of Christ, then all your works will be a curse to you. Two people will be doing the same thing but one will be saved and the other will go to hell. Why? Because one was motivated by love of God and others and the other was motivated by something else.

Place your focus on the inner vessel as opposed to the outward appearance. The line is Love. Either you have it or you are a walking corpse, doing dead works.

Certainly if one is puffed up with pride, even if they are outwardly righteous, they are not righteous. However, beyond that your logic falls apart. Just because doing good things to look righteous is bad, that doesn't make doing bad things good...even if lovingly.


Lovingly committing adultery still is not justified.....even if lovingly!

Regards,

George Clay

Is this a serious response? Do you actually believe that being motivated by Love of God and others equates to such concepts as lovingly committing adultery? What does that even mean? You've equivocated.

If you don't have charity then you are doing dead works. You can go through all the motions of being a TBM and whatever that entails but if you have enmity, you are a beautiful sepulchre with a dead and rotting corpse inside. If you aren't motivated by love of God and others then you are not on the right path, no matter how perfectly you live every law and tenet of our religion.

A man with a tattoo who smokes cigarettes but loves his neighbor and his enemies is living more righteously than a TBM who goes to church every Sunday, pays their tithing, strives to do their callings, obeys the word if wisdom, does their HT, etc., but doesn't have the love of God in His heart and has enmity towards outsiders and feels superior because of their strict adherence to the laws and striving to be the picture perfect Mormon. There are many motivations for acting and doing good works, but only a pure heart filled with the Love of Christ is justified in their good works. A bitter fountain cannot produce sweet water.

-Finrock

You seem to have enmity for 'TBM's, I don't think I've seen you ever mention them unless it was to cast aspersions.

Why do you assume that if a person follows the prophets' counsel, that means they look down on others? I don't think that's a fair assumption.

Just because a person is trying to do all the things they are asked, to live righteously--as we've been admonished by our Savior, doesn't mean that on the inside they are 'puffed up', only doing it for appearances and thinking they are superior to everyone else. I think you might want to give others the benefit of the doubt, rather than judging that they are a bunch of hypocrites.

[AI2.0]

My responses in blue:

Finrock,

My point still stands and my position is very important and critical to understanding what it means to act righteously. If we are not motivated by Love/Charity/Pure Love of Christ, then our actions are a curse against us. People who have love of God and of others are on the right path. People can be motivated by many different reasons in trying to obey the laws and tenets of our religion, but the one and true motivation that will save us is being motivated by love of God and others. You can go through all of the motions of doing all of the things a "good" Mormon ought to do, yet if you have not Love, you are nothing and truly just doing dead works. The law and the prophets all point to Charity/Love. Our outward works and outward appearances don't matter, but the condition of our hearts does. Using the poetic language of scripture and your reference to us being temples I want to let you know that our body is a temple that houses either a Holy Spirit or an Unholy Spirit. The outside of our temple and how it appears is irrelevant to the inside of our temple, meaning, the condition of our heart, meaning the condition of our spirit, meaning, are we filled with love of God and love for others.

Nobody is saying that it is OK to be hypocritical, proud, or to go through the motions of doing right. You make this knee jerk response to any suggestion that one would do well to follow the Prophet, or the leaders of the LDS church, as if you are contending against TBMs as if you are saying that it is OK to do evil things as long as it is done with love, but following the Prophet is bad because it means that one is proud and judgmental.

Yet you respond this way over, and over and over and over, as if you are, responding to some fallacy in the argument to follow the guidance of the prophet, the leaders of the church or maybe the instructions one might find on LDS.ord.

So if you are not equivocating yourself, are you simply repeating something that nobody disagrees with over and over as a knee jerk reaction every time somebody suggests following the prophet, or the good information one can find at LDS.or, or am I really (and I am serious about this ) too stupid to figure out the point you are really trying to make?


Regards,

George Clay

You asked the following of Obrien:

So I guess your body is not a temple. Where do you draw the line? Coffee? Alcohol? Marijuana? Hard Drugs? self mutilation?

Where is the line?

Regards,

George Clay

My answer is that the line is Love. Love is a true principle. It is the principle. Everything we do in the gospel, our whole life, is intended to teach us how to have Love or the Pure Love of Christ. Some things are critical to this goal, others things no so much. Some actions, some conduct, some behaviors and Love cannot coexist. Other actions, conduct, and behaviors can coexist with Love. I think many Mormons have a tendency to judge the worth or value or goodness of a person based on the Mormon Do's and Don'ts, very much like and almost identical to how the ancient Israelites used the law of Moses and their traditions as a means to measure who was good and who was evil. And, so you can go through this whole list of behaviors and be doing all of the things that a "good" Mormon should do, and not have true charity. We put a lot of stock in to things such as dressing in white shirts, wearing ties to Church, being clean shaven, and other things like that. We have the Word of Wisdom and we, speaking generally, often use this to judge a person and how close they are to Christ. There are people who are Mormons who absolutely believe that if you smoke cigarettes you are going to hell. The reality is that having the pure love of Christ and smoking cigarettes are not mutually exclusive. You can in reality do both. What is the whole point of all of these laws and all of these rules and all of these commandments? Many Mormons believe that these rules and laws and these commandments are there to prove how good a person is. The harder they are striving to keep all of these rules, the better that person is. Keep in mind I'm speaking generally now so this doesn't apply across the board, but it applies enough that I am justified in making this general statement. But, the general idea is that a really good person is going to be doing or not doing all of these good Mormon actions, conducts, or behaviors and all too often the focus is on the outward performance. The appearance of good. We can do our home teaching and not love God or love others. We can do our home teaching and love God and love others. That is why I said two people can be doing the same thing but one will go to hell and the other will go to heaven, because it comes down to the person's heart. Finrock. Do we have a prophet of god or don't we? Are we supposed to listen and heed his counsel or not? You keep ignoring the fact that for LDS, listening to the counsel of the prophet is not a matter or maybe I will or maybe I won't, I'm supposed to listen to him and I should heed his counsel.

You can have tattoos, wear earrings, wear tank tops, drink alcohol, use tobacco, and be filled with the pure love of Christ. The Mormon paradigm and Mormon traditions and Mormon norms are not the measure of who is or is not filled with the love of Christ. In the end, we cannot know. We cannot look upon our fellow man and because they do not belong to our group and because they do not adhere to our traditions and judge them. Now, as I mentioned, certain acts are in fact incompatible with the pure love of Christ. You cannot commit adultery and be filled with Charity. There is no way to lovingly commit adultery. That idea is nonsensical. Being filled with Love/Charity does have discernible signs, but they are not at all based on Mormon traditions and paradigms. We can find the fruits of Love or the fruits of the Spirit detailed in the scriptures. These fruits are respect, kindness, selflessness, peace, freedom, liberty, gentleness, meekness, humility, and others.Did George say that having tattoos, wearing earrings, tank tops,drinking alcohol etc. meant you could not be a good person and have the love of Christ for others? If he did, please show me, because I never read that in what he wrote. You impudently responded to him AS IF he had made those statements. You are guilty of perceiving things in what others write and then attacking them for it--it's a form of setting up a strawman, and it's unfair.

God is greater than the Mormon paradigm. We aren't the only children of His on this planet and using our cultural norms, traditions, and paradigms as a means to measure righteousness if folly. Love is the measure. Are you filled with the pure love of Christ? If so, you are doing well, even if you aren't following all of the do's and don'ts of Mormondom. Focus on love, not the outward vessel or the outward performances or the outward ordinances. They are not as important as being truly converted to Christ and not everyone who is truly converted to Christ will act and be like a Mormon.

-Finrock

Why are you so insistent at separating out all righteous virtues from Mormonism and those who try to practice it? Do you not see that you have judged those you call 'TBM's to be outwardly righteous, but inwardly wicked. You seem to have a problem with active, believing LDS and I'm not sure why.

[gclayjr]

AI2.0


In this thread you posed the following

.Did George say that having tattoos, wearing earrings, tank tops,drinking alcohol etc. meant you could not be a good person and have the love of Christ for others? If he did, please show me, because I never read that in what he wrote. You impudently responded to him AS IF he had made those statements. You are guilty of perceiving things in what others write and then attacking them for it--it's a form of setting up a strawman, and it's unfair.

And in fact in this very thread I stated the following:

You will see that One with Charity.. the Pure love of Christ does not rejoice in iniquity and rejoices in truth. One might say that one with Charity Seeks out truth.

So can one with Tattoos, or who drinks alcohol, or uses tobacco, be filled with the pure love of Christ? Yes, if they do not know better. But not if they do. By the way, avoiding learning the truth doesn't cut it either, because one who is filled with the Pure love of Christ will seek it out.'

You also posed the following

Why are you so insistent at separating out all righteous virtues from Mormonism and those who try to practice it? Do you not see that you have judged those you call 'TBM's to be outwardly righteous, but inwardly wicked. You seem to have a problem with active, believing LDS and I'm not sure why.

I have tried to demonstrate Finrocks hypocritical false choice over and over and over

Including

Nobody is saying that it is OK to be hypocritical, proud, or to go through the motions of doing right. You make this knee jerk response to any suggestion that one would do well to follow the Prophet, or the leaders of the LDS church, as if you are contending against TBMs as if you are saying that it is OK to do evil things as long as it is done with love, but following the Prophet is bad because it means that one is proud and judgmental.

Yet you respond this way over, and over and over and over, as if you are, responding to some fallacy in the argument to follow the guidance of the prophet, the leaders of the church or maybe the instructions one might find on LDS.ord.

So if you are not equivocating yourself, are you simply repeating something that nobody disagrees with over and over as a knee jerk reaction every time somebody suggests following the prophet, or the good information one can find at LDS.or, or am I really (and I am serious about this ) too stupid to figure out the point you are really trying to make?

And

True, but irrelevant. You somehow seem to think that Charity or the pure Love of Christ, and following commandments are mutually exclusive. I can think of no other reason why every time someone suggests, finding out the Truth in many ways including the words of the prophet, the knowledge in LDS org, you immediately slam them as if that is CONTRARY to seeking the Pure Love of Christ. Why else to you always bring that up as if they are mutually exclusive ideas?

I think that Finrock needs to believe that keeping God's commandments, and following the guidance of his prophet and having Charity or the True Love of Christ are mutually exclusive, because he knows that us TBMs know that we cannot judge what is in someone else's heart (although he is completely blind to his own hypocrisy in making that judgment of us over and over), because that seems to give him incense to be selfish, and follow his own passions while ignoring the commandments of God. Of course I can only guess, because I do not know what is really in his heart.

So I think it is a waste of time to show this to him any more times, because it would force him to face things he either will not or cannot face!

Regards,

George Clay

[AI2.0]

Finrock,


Why didn't you give me the signal that you were again wandering into the gospel according to FInrock by saying

... in my own words

How you square the circle between what you say

Clearly, there is an opportunity for those who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise for them to commit all sorts of sins and unless they commit the unpardonable sin, they will be saved at the last day. My point is, just because a person is speaking against one of God's prophets is not a sure fire indicator that this person is an apostate.

and

Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize.

with this from LDS.org

Making one’s calling and election sure is an addition to celestial marriage and results from undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness. Those married in the temple can never under any circumstances gain exaltation unless they keep the commandments of God and abide in the covenant of marriage which they have taken upon themselves.”

???

Regards,

George Clay

:)) You say that an article from LDS.org completely refutes MY assertion? I did reference the scripture in my original post. Secondly, the article did not completely refute what the scriptures say. Read the scriptures for yourself. I underlined and put in bold the portions that say that if a person who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise commits any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant WHATEVER, and ALL manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter in to their exaltation.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

Our hearts are changed when we are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. You are mistaken about what it means to have one's calling and election made sure. We are still saturated and surrounded by our weaknesses and we will continue to fall short. In fact, the refining and tuning that is finally required in order to make us Gods cannot be accomplished unless we have an assurance from God that we are sealed to Him and cannot lose the prize outside of our rejection of it through blaspheming against the Holy Ghost or murdering another. You don't receive your calling and election because you have stopped making mistakes and have become infallible and after you receive your calling and election it doesn't mean that your progression and refining has stopped. It is just a new beginning and the next phase of the journey. It makes a big difference in life in being able to endure all things when you know that you are sealed to the Father and have been promised exaltation; you are then ready for new challenges and new experiences which you cannot accomplish or hope to attain without the promise or the more sure word of prophecy.

-Finrock

I think I've found where you and the church deviate on this subject. You seem to think that a person who has their calling and election made sure will still be just as flawed and tempted as the rest of us. So, you assume that a person who's seen Christ will still have a normal desire to sin and will most likely follow through. But, from what I posted--Roy Doxey's talk, I believe that this is not the case. A person who has their calling and election made sure has already overcome a lot of their sins and they've learned to control the natural man tendencies. They don't constantly fight the desire to sin, because of the life that they've led, to bring them to the point where they are qualified for this experience, they've been able to overcome a lot of their weaknesses. That is the church's position. That's why it most often comes after a lifetime of righteous devotion. While it doesn't mean that a young person can't have this, it is not common--Joseph Smith, Nephi, Jacob, Mormon, come to mind. Exceptional individuals who received it at a younger age.

One reason they are assured exaltation is that they have already proven their faithfulness and overcome most of their weaknesses, which could otherwise drag them into sin and evil. So the likelihood that they would commit adultery or murder or commit the unpardonable sin is small--though possible.

[Finrock]

My responses in blue:

Finrock,

My point still stands and my position is very important and critical to understanding what it means to act righteously. If we are not motivated by Love/Charity/Pure Love of Christ, then our actions are a curse against us. People who have love of God and of others are on the right path. People can be motivated by many different reasons in trying to obey the laws and tenets of our religion, but the one and true motivation that will save us is being motivated by love of God and others. You can go through all of the motions of doing all of the things a "good" Mormon ought to do, yet if you have not Love, you are nothing and truly just doing dead works. The law and the prophets all point to Charity/Love. Our outward works and outward appearances don't matter, but the condition of our hearts does. Using the poetic language of scripture and your reference to us being temples I want to let you know that our body is a temple that houses either a Holy Spirit or an Unholy Spirit. The outside of our temple and how it appears is irrelevant to the inside of our temple, meaning, the condition of our heart, meaning the condition of our spirit, meaning, are we filled with love of God and love for others.

Nobody is saying that it is OK to be hypocritical, proud, or to go through the motions of doing right. You make this knee jerk response to any suggestion that one would do well to follow the Prophet, or the leaders of the LDS church, as if you are contending against TBMs as if you are saying that it is OK to do evil things as long as it is done with love, but following the Prophet is bad because it means that one is proud and judgmental.

Yet you respond this way over, and over and over and over, as if you are, responding to some fallacy in the argument to follow the guidance of the prophet, the leaders of the church or maybe the instructions one might find on LDS.ord.

So if you are not equivocating yourself, are you simply repeating something that nobody disagrees with over and over as a knee jerk reaction every time somebody suggests following the prophet, or the good information one can find at LDS.or, or am I really (and I am serious about this ) too stupid to figure out the point you are really trying to make?


Regards,

George Clay

You asked the following of Obrien:

So I guess your body is not a temple. Where do you draw the line? Coffee? Alcohol? Marijuana? Hard Drugs? self mutilation?

Where is the line?

Regards,

George Clay

My answer is that the line is Love. Love is a true principle. It is the principle. Everything we do in the gospel, our whole life, is intended to teach us how to have Love or the Pure Love of Christ. Some things are critical to this goal, others things no so much. Some actions, some conduct, some behaviors and Love cannot coexist. Other actions, conduct, and behaviors can coexist with Love. I think many Mormons have a tendency to judge the worth or value or goodness of a person based on the Mormon Do's and Don'ts, very much like and almost identical to how the ancient Israelites used the law of Moses and their traditions as a means to measure who was good and who was evil. And, so you can go through this whole list of behaviors and be doing all of the things that a "good" Mormon should do, and not have true charity. We put a lot of stock in to things such as dressing in white shirts, wearing ties to Church, being clean shaven, and other things like that. We have the Word of Wisdom and we, speaking generally, often use this to judge a person and how close they are to Christ. There are people who are Mormons who absolutely believe that if you smoke cigarettes you are going to hell. The reality is that having the pure love of Christ and smoking cigarettes are not mutually exclusive. You can in reality do both. What is the whole point of all of these laws and all of these rules and all of these commandments? Many Mormons believe that these rules and laws and these commandments are there to prove how good a person is. The harder they are striving to keep all of these rules, the better that person is. Keep in mind I'm speaking generally now so this doesn't apply across the board, but it applies enough that I am justified in making this general statement. But, the general idea is that a really good person is going to be doing or not doing all of these good Mormon actions, conducts, or behaviors and all too often the focus is on the outward performance. The appearance of good. We can do our home teaching and not love God or love others. We can do our home teaching and love God and love others. That is why I said two people can be doing the same thing but one will go to hell and the other will go to heaven, because it comes down to the person's heart. Finrock. Do we have a prophet of god or don't we? Are we supposed to listen and heed his counsel or not? You keep ignoring the fact that for LDS, listening to the counsel of the prophet is not a matter or maybe I will or maybe I won't, I'm supposed to listen to him and I should heed his counsel.

You can have tattoos, wear earrings, wear tank tops, drink alcohol, use tobacco, and be filled with the pure love of Christ. The Mormon paradigm and Mormon traditions and Mormon norms are not the measure of who is or is not filled with the love of Christ. In the end, we cannot know. We cannot look upon our fellow man and because they do not belong to our group and because they do not adhere to our traditions and judge them. Now, as I mentioned, certain acts are in fact incompatible with the pure love of Christ. You cannot commit adultery and be filled with Charity. There is no way to lovingly commit adultery. That idea is nonsensical. Being filled with Love/Charity does have discernible signs, but they are not at all based on Mormon traditions and paradigms. We can find the fruits of Love or the fruits of the Spirit detailed in the scriptures. These fruits are respect, kindness, selflessness, peace, freedom, liberty, gentleness, meekness, humility, and others.Did George say that having tattoos, wearing earrings, tank tops,drinking alcohol etc. meant you could not be a good person and have the love of Christ for others? If he did, please show me, because I never read that in what he wrote. You impudently responded to him AS IF he had made those statements. You are guilty of perceiving things in what others write and then attacking them for it--it's a form of setting up a strawman, and it's unfair.

God is greater than the Mormon paradigm. We aren't the only children of His on this planet and using our cultural norms, traditions, and paradigms as a means to measure righteousness if folly. Love is the measure. Are you filled with the pure love of Christ? If so, you are doing well, even if you aren't following all of the do's and don'ts of Mormondom. Focus on love, not the outward vessel or the outward performances or the outward ordinances. They are not as important as being truly converted to Christ and not everyone who is truly converted to Christ will act and be like a Mormon.

-Finrock

Why are you so insistent at separating out all righteous virtues from Mormonism and those who try to practice it? Do you not see that you have judged those you call 'TBM's to be outwardly righteous, but inwardly wicked. You seem to have a problem with active, believing LDS and I'm not sure why.

Do you understand the point of this post of mine that you are quoting? From your responses in blue it appears to me you've missed the point. Before I invest time in responding to comments that are missing the point, are you sincerely interested in knowing what I am saying? I don't mind conversing, but we have to make sure we are understanding one another and I don't think you understand what it is I am saying based on what you are asserting and asking of me.

Also, write this down somewhere or commit it to memory: I am a true believing Mormon, active and happy in the Church. One could claim here that I am equivocating, but I would say I'm reclaiming the meaning of a true believing Mormon from those who have hijacked this phrase or acronym.

You should change your position at this time to reflect the reality that I'm not disaffected, disloyal, or apostate with the Church. I am in a position to assert what I am, but you are not in a position to judge what I am. If you continue with the implication or the assumption that I am not a TBM then our conversation ends because it cannot at that point be authentic.

?

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Finrock,


Why didn't you give me the signal that you were again wandering into the gospel according to FInrock by saying

... in my own words

How you square the circle between what you say

Clearly, there is an opportunity for those who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise for them to commit all sorts of sins and unless they commit the unpardonable sin, they will be saved at the last day. My point is, just because a person is speaking against one of God's prophets is not a sure fire indicator that this person is an apostate.

and

Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize.

with this from LDS.org

Making one’s calling and election sure is an addition to celestial marriage and results from undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness. Those married in the temple can never under any circumstances gain exaltation unless they keep the commandments of God and abide in the covenant of marriage which they have taken upon themselves.”

???

Regards,

George Clay

:)) You say that an article from LDS.org completely refutes MY assertion? I did reference the scripture in my original post. Secondly, the article did not completely refute what the scriptures say. Read the scriptures for yourself. I underlined and put in bold the portions that say that if a person who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise commits any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant WHATEVER, and ALL manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter in to their exaltation.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

Our hearts are changed when we are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. You are mistaken about what it means to have one's calling and election made sure. We are still saturated and surrounded by our weaknesses and we will continue to fall short. In fact, the refining and tuning that is finally required in order to make us Gods cannot be accomplished unless we have an assurance from God that we are sealed to Him and cannot lose the prize outside of our rejection of it through blaspheming against the Holy Ghost or murdering another. You don't receive your calling and election because you have stopped making mistakes and have become infallible and after you receive your calling and election it doesn't mean that your progression and refining has stopped. It is just a new beginning and the next phase of the journey. It makes a big difference in life in being able to endure all things when you know that you are sealed to the Father and have been promised exaltation; you are then ready for new challenges and new experiences which you cannot accomplish or hope to attain without the promise or the more sure word of prophecy.

-Finrock

I think I've found where you and the church deviate on this subject. You seem to think that a person who has their calling and election made sure will still be just as flawed and tempted as the rest of us. So, you assume that a person who's seen Christ will still have a normal desire to sin and will most likely follow through. But, from what I posted--Roy Doxey's talk, I believe that this is not the case. A person who has their calling and election made sure has already overcome a lot of their sins and they've learned to control the natural man tendencies. They don't constantly fight the desire to sin, because of the life that they've led, to bring them to the point where they are qualified for this experience, they've been able to overcome a lot of their weaknesses. That is the church's position. That's why it most often comes after a lifetime of righteous devotion. While it doesn't mean that a young person can't have this, it is not common--Joseph Smith, Nephi, Jacob, Mormon, come to mind. Exceptional individuals who received it at a younger age.

One reason they are assured exaltation is that they have already proven their faithfulness and overcome most of their weaknesses, which could otherwise drag them into sin and evil. So the likelihood that they would commit adultery or murder or commit the unpardonable sin is small--though possible.

Thank you for providing your current understanding of this doctrine. Based on what you said in your opening paragraph in this response I can tell that you have not understood my point. Also, in future correspondences with me, please recognize that if I am disagreeing with the Church on some thing, I will make that known to you. It is presumptuous of you to believe that because I may disagree with your particular beliefs and ideas that I am disagreeing with the Church. Again, let's get on equal ground here before we invest time in a discussion because my desire and hope is for this to be edifying and useful.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

You said to AI2.0

Thank you for providing your current understanding of this doctrine. Based on what you said in your opening paragraph in this response I can tell that you have not understood my point. Also, in future correspondences with me, please recognize that if I am disagreeing with the Church on some thing, I will make that known to you. It is presumptuous of you to believe that because I may disagree with your particular beliefs and ideas that I am disagreeing with the Church. Again, let's get on equal ground here before we invest time in a discussion because my desire and hope is for this to be edifying and useful.

Apparently nobody is getting your point. I said

So if you are not equivocating yourself, are you simply repeating something that nobody disagrees with over and over as a knee jerk reaction every time somebody suggests following the prophet, or the good information one can find at LDS.or, or am I really (and I am serious about this ) too stupid to figure out the point you are really trying to make?

So it is not just me. Apparently you are not communicating your point very well. I guess it is up to you whether you want to

1) just let it go, and recognize that the way you express yourself leads to a lot of confusion.,

2) Believe that those who stand up for the church are just trying to "get you"

3) try to figure out a way of saying what you mean so as to not give the impression that you are hostile to choosing to follow the LDS, church and its prophet to help learn how to come to Jesus Christ.

I guess it is up to you. I wish you the best. and hope you don't just feel that people are out to get you.

Regards,

George Clay

[h_p]

No sooner did I finish this thought than I myself had a spiritual experience that was more profound than any other I had ever received to that point in my life. My heart was on fire! The intensity of this sensation had me crouch over and reach for that burning area. It did not hurt but truly was an intensity of heat. Immediately my inner man / person was filled with (no egageration) rapturous joy! I wept!. I think maybe in my immediate general area I was the only one who experienced this-- from my brief observation.

I remember feeling a very small twinge of emotion / embarrassment of "am I drawing attention to myself." That thought quickly vanished with the peace love and joy I was enveloped in. For weeks after this experience I was clicking my spritual heels together... It is my witness if we seek and promote/testify of that which the prophet Joseph and others including Truman Madsen encourage to seek-- eventualy Christ our beloved Savior will enter in. We are ment to be made anew through him in this life and be received by him / second comforter-- most assuredly in this life-- is my testimony with love and confidenice to all. JB

"...Be believing."

I, too, had a similar experience just a few years ago. My life has not been the same since.

[Mark]

Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.


P.S Here is some excellent resource material on this wonderful gospel principle that might be helpful.

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/callelects ... Comforters" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Lizzy60]

Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.

Mark,

Serious question here ---
Do you believe that a person can have their calling and election made sure without receiving the 2nd anointing ordinance in the temple, or is that ordinance necessary?
Also, if a married couple does receive the 2nd anointing ordinance, have they had their calling and election made sure?

I had a friend several years ago who was somewhat obsessed with knowing more about the 2nd anointing, and how necessary it might be to attain exaltation in the highest kingdom. Therefore, I did a lot of research into the subject, as well as asking a few temple presidents about it, but I never felt I had a clear answer. I am not asking you to provide the definitive answer, I am just wondering what your personal belief is (I will not mock it) as it seems you have also done a lot of reading on the subject.

Thanks!

[Older/wiser?]

Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.

Thanks Mark you stated what I have felt for so long, we live in a world of counterfeits , copies so close. People seem to tell of their experiences so freely, so sacred an experience , would one not hold it close. I know a man who has had such an experience, he stated it this way " I have tasted of His Goodness", as he spoke the Spirit bore witness to me of his experience, not him being so free with words. There is and old saying " Those who say don't know" , and "Those who Know don't say", .

[diligently seeking]

Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.

Thanks Mark you stated what I have felt for so long, we live in a world of counterfeits , copies so close. People seem to tell of their experiences so freely, so sacred an experience , would one not hold it close. I know a man who has had such an experience, he stated it this way " I have tasted of His Goodness", as he spoke the Spirit bore witness to me of his experience, not him being so free with words. There is and old saying " Those who say don't know" , and "Those who Know don't say", .

Ether 12:

38 And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things;

40 And only a few have I written, because of my weakness in writing.

41 And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever. Amen.

[AI2.0]

Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.

Mark,

Serious question here ---
Do you believe that a person can have their calling and election made sure without receiving the 2nd anointing ordinance in the temple, or is that ordinance necessary?
Also, if a married couple does receive the 2nd anointing ordinance, have they had their calling and election made sure?

I had a friend several years ago who was somewhat obsessed with knowing more about the 2nd anointing, and how necessary it might be to attain exaltation in the highest kingdom. Therefore, I did a lot of research into the subject, as well as asking a few temple presidents about it, but I never felt I had a clear answer. I am not asking you to provide the definitive answer, I am just wondering what your personal belief is (I will not mock it) as it seems you have also done a lot of reading on the subject.

Thanks!

You didn't ask me, but I'd like to comment as well. I believe the second anointing completed in the temple is one of the ordinances needed for exaltation, but like the temple sealing, still needs the confirmation of the holy spirit of promise for affirmation of this ordinance and to make it binding in the eternities. I believe that there will come a time, when the members are ready and prepared, that this ordinance will be offered on a wider scale and the proxy work will be done for those of us who did not receive it in this life (which will be a lot of us).

While I view it this way, I don't lose any sleep over whether or not I receive it in this life. I've done plenty of proxy work for others which is just as binding in the eternities as the ordinances I've received in life--so I know that if this is something I need, it will be completed for me. I think it is not good to obsess on these things and create a lot of anxiety--rather have faith and not a spirit of fear.

And I believe that a person can have their calling and election without receiving the actual second anointing ordinance. If a married couple receives the seconding anointing, I believe they have the binding ordinance, but they still need it 'ratified' by the holy spirit of promise and this may come in this life or in the next. That's my opinion, after reading up on this subject.

[AI2.0]

Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.

Thanks Mark you stated what I have felt for so long, we live in a world of counterfeits , copies so close. People seem to tell of their experiences so freely, so sacred an experience , would one not hold it close. I know a man who has had such an experience, he stated it this way " I have tasted of His Goodness", as he spoke the Spirit bore witness to me of his experience, not him being so free with words. There is and old saying " Those who say don't know" , and "Those who Know don't say", .

Ether 12:

38 And now I, Moroni, bid farewell unto the Gentiles, yea, and also unto my brethren whom I love, until we shall meet before the judgment-seat of Christ, where all men shall know that my garments are not spotted with your blood.

39 And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things;

40 And only a few have I written, because of my weakness in writing.

41 And now, I would commend you to seek this Jesus of whom the prophets and apostles have written, that the grace of God the Father, and also the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of them, may be and abide in you forever. Amen.

I know you believe you've had this experience, but it's just really hard for me to believe that a spiritual experience of this magnitude takes people OUT of the church, rather than makes them stronger in their faith. How are you able to reconcile that people supposedly learn about this from the LDS church and then, when they have their 'vision', they receive instructions to break their covenants or distance themselves from it. I think that is why many of us have trouble with the claims of Elliason believers--and they seem to ignore the fact that deception is a real concern. The scriptures warn repeatedly of false and lying spirits which can take advantage of those seeking these things. This is a real concern and the dangers of being deceived and thinking one can use a 'quick method' to calling and election are obvious.

[Older/wiser?]

I am not doubting that there are those who have Seen our Lord, I to have written sacred things in my Journals, (which may one day be considered scripture). I guess I get bothered when people go on forums and share details that an experience so sacred, then becomes a detailed account. I notice moroni states " I have seen Jesus", He does not describe what it felt like to his body, the experience in detail or anything else about this personal experience. For every true experience , I also assume there are false ones, as shown in Moses, and Adams account.

[AI2.0]

My responses in blue:

Finrock,



Nobody is saying that it is OK to be hypocritical, proud, or to go through the motions of doing right. You make this knee jerk response to any suggestion that one would do well to follow the Prophet, or the leaders of the LDS church, as if you are contending against TBMs as if you are saying that it is OK to do evil things as long as it is done with love, but following the Prophet is bad because it means that one is proud and judgmental.

Yet you respond this way over, and over and over and over, as if you are, responding to some fallacy in the argument to follow the guidance of the prophet, the leaders of the church or maybe the instructions one might find on LDS.ord.

So if you are not equivocating yourself, are you simply repeating something that nobody disagrees with over and over as a knee jerk reaction every time somebody suggests following the prophet, or the good information one can find at LDS.or, or am I really (and I am serious about this ) too stupid to figure out the point you are really trying to make?


Regards,

George Clay

You asked the following of Obrien:

So I guess your body is not a temple. Where do you draw the line? Coffee? Alcohol? Marijuana? Hard Drugs? self mutilation?

Where is the line?

Regards,

George Clay

My answer is that the line is Love. Love is a true principle. It is the principle. Everything we do in the gospel, our whole life, is intended to teach us how to have Love or the Pure Love of Christ. Some things are critical to this goal, others things no so much. Some actions, some conduct, some behaviors and Love cannot coexist. Other actions, conduct, and behaviors can coexist with Love. I think many Mormons have a tendency to judge the worth or value or goodness of a person based on the Mormon Do's and Don'ts, very much like and almost identical to how the ancient Israelites used the law of Moses and their traditions as a means to measure who was good and who was evil. And, so you can go through this whole list of behaviors and be doing all of the things that a "good" Mormon should do, and not have true charity. We put a lot of stock in to things such as dressing in white shirts, wearing ties to Church, being clean shaven, and other things like that. We have the Word of Wisdom and we, speaking generally, often use this to judge a person and how close they are to Christ. There are people who are Mormons who absolutely believe that if you smoke cigarettes you are going to hell. The reality is that having the pure love of Christ and smoking cigarettes are not mutually exclusive. You can in reality do both. What is the whole point of all of these laws and all of these rules and all of these commandments? Many Mormons believe that these rules and laws and these commandments are there to prove how good a person is. The harder they are striving to keep all of these rules, the better that person is. Keep in mind I'm speaking generally now so this doesn't apply across the board, but it applies enough that I am justified in making this general statement. But, the general idea is that a really good person is going to be doing or not doing all of these good Mormon actions, conducts, or behaviors and all too often the focus is on the outward performance. The appearance of good. We can do our home teaching and not love God or love others. We can do our home teaching and love God and love others. That is why I said two people can be doing the same thing but one will go to hell and the other will go to heaven, because it comes down to the person's heart. Finrock. Do we have a prophet of god or don't we? Are we supposed to listen and heed his counsel or not? You keep ignoring the fact that for LDS, listening to the counsel of the prophet is not a matter or maybe I will or maybe I won't, I'm supposed to listen to him and I should heed his counsel.

You can have tattoos, wear earrings, wear tank tops, drink alcohol, use tobacco, and be filled with the pure love of Christ. The Mormon paradigm and Mormon traditions and Mormon norms are not the measure of who is or is not filled with the love of Christ. In the end, we cannot know. We cannot look upon our fellow man and because they do not belong to our group and because they do not adhere to our traditions and judge them. Now, as I mentioned, certain acts are in fact incompatible with the pure love of Christ. You cannot commit adultery and be filled with Charity. There is no way to lovingly commit adultery. That idea is nonsensical. Being filled with Love/Charity does have discernible signs, but they are not at all based on Mormon traditions and paradigms. We can find the fruits of Love or the fruits of the Spirit detailed in the scriptures. These fruits are respect, kindness, selflessness, peace, freedom, liberty, gentleness, meekness, humility, and others.Did George say that having tattoos, wearing earrings, tank tops,drinking alcohol etc. meant you could not be a good person and have the love of Christ for others? If he did, please show me, because I never read that in what he wrote. You impudently responded to him AS IF he had made those statements. You are guilty of perceiving things in what others write and then attacking them for it--it's a form of setting up a strawman, and it's unfair.

God is greater than the Mormon paradigm. We aren't the only children of His on this planet and using our cultural norms, traditions, and paradigms as a means to measure righteousness if folly. Love is the measure. Are you filled with the pure love of Christ? If so, you are doing well, even if you aren't following all of the do's and don'ts of Mormondom. Focus on love, not the outward vessel or the outward performances or the outward ordinances. They are not as important as being truly converted to Christ and not everyone who is truly converted to Christ will act and be like a Mormon.

-Finrock

Why are you so insistent at separating out all righteous virtues from Mormonism and those who try to practice it? Do you not see that you have judged those you call 'TBM's to be outwardly righteous, but inwardly wicked. You seem to have a problem with active, believing LDS and I'm not sure why.

Do you understand the point of this post of mine that you are quoting? From your responses in blue it appears to me you've missed the point. Before I invest time in responding to comments that are missing the point, are you sincerely interested in knowing what I am saying? I don't mind conversing, but we have to make sure we are understanding one another and I don't think you understand what it is I am saying based on what you are asserting and asking of me.

Also, write this down somewhere or commit it to memory: I am a true believing Mormon, active and happy in the Church. One could claim here that I am equivocating, but I would say I'm reclaiming the meaning of a true believing Mormon from those who have hijacked this phrase or acronym.

You should change your position at this time to reflect the reality that I'm not disaffected, disloyal, or apostate with the Church. I am in a position to assert what I am, but you are not in a position to judge what I am. If you continue with the implication or the assumption that I am not a TBM then our conversation ends because it cannot at that point be authentic.

?

-Finrock

I guess I'm missing your point, but please don't try to explain it to me. I'm afraid that you are a conundrum. You say you are 'tbm', but you criticize tbms. I never said you were disaffected, disloyal or apostate, all I know is what you write. I said you sound judgmental and critical of others that you accuse of only putting on a show of religiosity. If you think I'm wrong, you might want to read through your own posts. Maybe you are not expressing yourself as you'd like to. Maybe you are sending messages you don't mean to send. There seems to be a disconnect in how your perceive your own views and how I and others perceive your views.

Here's a thought: If you want others to believe you are 'TBM' maybe you could refrain from constantly criticizing those you identify as 'TBM'.

[Finrock]

"Oh yeah, and I would not do it either if you happen to be someone that finds fault or speaks evil with the Lord's anointed. I would make sure that you are in submission and give deference to the keys of the priesthood so you have the right spirit about you, because having that type of spirit of evil speaking is indeed an invitation for deception. And even then, I would venture a guess to say that it will not be immediate, but will be at a time and place of the Lord's choosing."

Thank you brother Ed. Finding fault with and speaking ill of the Lords anointed servants who hold the proper Priesthood keys is a violation of sacred temple covenants. It is indeed an invitation for deception.

First, this is an argument of irrelevance, because committing adultery is also an invitation for deception. Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize. It is not a sure indicator that a person is apostate just because they might find fault with the leaders of the Church.

You and I are not in a position to judge where a person is at and whether they are sealed to life eternal or to pertition, unless we know they have committed the unpardonable sin, and we can only know this if we know their calling and election is made sure.

-Finrock

This is from McConkies New Testament commentary. It addresses the reservation aspect to having ones calling and election made sure. My point here Finrock is that moral agency is paramount. There are consequences to sin and rebellion. We may not fully understand the extent of those consequences but they are still in place and there will be a price to be paid.

[11] What if those whose calling and election has been made sure thereafter commit grievous sins? Suppose they backslide and walk in the ways of wickedness? Or fight the truth and rebel against God--what then?

That all men commit sin, before and after baptism, and for that matter, before and after their calling and election is made sure, is self-evident. There has been only one Sinless One--the Lord Jesus who was God's own Son.

Thus in the revelation announcing the setting up of the restored church in this day, the Lord says: "There is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also." (D&C 20:32-34.)

The prophets and apostles from Adam and Enoch down, and all men, whether cleansed and sanctified from sin or not, are yet subject to and do in fact commit sin. This is the case even after men have seen the visions of eternity and been sealed by that Holy Spirit of Promise which makes their calling and election sure. Since these chosen ones have the sure promise of eternal life, and since "no unclean thing can enter into" the Father's "kingdom" (3 Ne 27:19), "or dwell in his presence" (Moses 6:57), what of sins committed after being sealed up into eternal life?

Obviously the laws of repentance still apply, and the more enlightened a person is, the more he seeks the gift of repentance, and the harder he strives to free himself from sin as often as he falls short of the divine will and becomes subject in any degree to the Master of Sin who is Lucifer. It follows that the sins of the godfearing and the righteous are continually remitted because they repent and seek the Lord anew every day and every hour.

And as a matter of fact, the added blessing of having one's calling and election made sure is itself an encouragement to avoid sin and a hedge against its further commission. By that long course of obedience and trial which enabled them to gain so great a blessing the sanctified saints have charted a course and developed a pattern of living which avoids sin and encourages righteousness. Thus the Lord said: "I give unto you Hyrum Smith to be a patriarch unto you, to hold the sealing blessings of my church, even the Holy Spirit of promise, whereby ye are sealed up unto the day of redemption, that ye may not fall notwithstanding the hour of temptation that may come upon you." (D&C 124:124.)

But suppose such persons become disaffected and the spirit of repentance leaves them--which is a seldom and almost unheard of eventuality--still, what then? The answer is--and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith so recite!--they must then pay the penalty of their own sins, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them. Or if they commit murder or adultery, they lose their promised inheritance because these sins are exempt from the sealing promises. Or if they commit the unpardonable sin, they become sons of perdition.

As we have already seen, making one's calling and election sure comes after and grows out of celestial marriage. Eternal life does not and cannot exist for a man or a woman alone, because in its very nature it consists of the continuation of the family unit in eternity. Thus the revelation on marriage speaks both of celestial marriage (in which the conditional promises of eternal life are given) and of making one's calling and election sure (in which the unconditional promise of eternal life are given) in one and the same sentence--which sentence also says that those who commit sins (except "murder whereby to shed innocent blood") after being sealed up unto eternal life shall still gain exaltation. This is the language: "Then"--that is, after their calling and election has been made sure--"shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods," because they have eternal life. (D&C 132:19-20.)

Then the revelation speaks of that obedience out of which eternal life grows, and still speaking both of celestial marriage and of making one's calling and election sure says: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment"--that is, if they are both married and have their calling and election made sure--"and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God." (D&C 132:26.)

This matter of being destroyed in the flesh and delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption is the doctrine of blood atonement, whereunder those here involved are not cleansed by the blood of Christ, but must pay the penalty for their own sins. This principle can only operate in a day, as that of Moses, when there is no separation of Church and state and when the Church has power to take life. Of conditions in our day, and as to how this law applies to us, President Joseph Fielding Smith says: "We cannot destroy men in the flesh, because we do not control the lives of men and do not have power to pass sentences upon them which involve capital punishment. In the days when there was a theocracy on the earth, then this decree was enforced. What the Lord will do in lieu of this, because we cannot destroy in the flesh, I am unable to say, but it will have to be made up in some other way." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:97.)

As to the shedding of innocent blood, within the meaning of this revelation, the Lord says: "The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord." (D&C 132:27.) That is, the innocent blood is that of Christ; and those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which is the unpardonable sin (Matt 12:31-32), thereby "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:6.) They are, in other words, people who would have crucified Christ, having the while a perfect knowledge that he was the Son of God.

Following the pattern set by the Lord of speaking both of celestial marriage and of being sealed up unto eternal life in the same context, Joseph Smith said: "Putting my hand on the knee of William Clayton, I said: Your life is hid with Christ in God, and so are many others. Nothing but the unpardonable sin can prevent you from inheriting eternal life for you are sealed up by the power of the priesthood unto eternal life, having taken the step necessary for that purpose. Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory. The unpardonable sin is to shed innocent blood, or be accessory thereto. All other sins will be visited with judgment in the flesh, and the spirit being delivered to the buffetings of Satan until the day of the Lord Jesus." (History of the Church, 5:391-392.)

Perhaps this matter of being "visited with judgment in the flesh"--whatever it may be in an individual case--is the Lord's way of handling things when it is not possible for a person to be "destroyed in the flesh." (D&C 132:26.) In this connection, also--and having in mind that the sealing power was given by Elijah to Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration (Teachings, 158), and again to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple (D&C 110:13-16)--we should note these words of the Prophet: "This spirit of Elijah was manifest in the days of the Apostles, in delivering certain ones to the buffetings of Satan, that they might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. They were sealed by the spirit of Elijah unto the damnation of hell until the day of the Lord, or revelation of Jesus Christ." (Teachings, 338.)

As to the fact that the sealing power cannot seal a man up so as to keep him from being a son of perdition, if that is the course he chooses to follow, the Prophet says: "The doctrine that the Presbyterians and Methodists have quarreled so much about--once in grace, always in grace, or falling away from grace, I will say a word about. They are both wrong. Truth takes a road between them both, for while the Presbyterian says: 'One in grace, you cannot fall'; the Methodist says: 'You can have grace today, fall from it tomorrow, next day have grace again; and so follow on, changing continually.' But the doctrine of the scriptures and the spirit of Elijah would show them both false, and take a road between them both; for, according to the scripture, if men have received the good word of God, and tasted of the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, it is impossible to renew them again, seeing they have crucified the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; so there is a possibility of falling away; you could not be renewed again, and the power of Elijah cannot seal against this sin, for this is a reserve made in the seals and power of the priesthood." (Teachings, pg. 338-339.) Thus, even though a man's calling and election has been made sure, if he then commits blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, be becomes a son of perdition, because when he was sealed up unto eternal life it was with a reservation. The sealing was not to apply in the case of the unpardonable sin.

As to the fact that the sealing power cannot seal a man up unto eternal life if he thereafter commits murder and thereby sheds innocent blood (not in this case the blood of Christ, but the blood of any person slain unlawfully and with malice) the Prophet says: "A murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell; he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell.

"Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the priesthood; and the priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage." (Teachings, 339.) Thus, even though a man's calling and election has been made sure, if he then commits murder, all of the promises are of no effect, and he goes to a telestial kingdom (Rev 21:8; D&C 76:103), because when he was sealed up unto eternal life, it was with a reservation. The sealing was not to apply in the case of murder.

And as to the fact that the sealing power cannot seal a man up unto eternal life if he thereafter commits adultery, the Prophet says: "If a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the celestial kingdom." (History of the Church, 6:81.) Thus, even though a man's calling and election has been sure, if he then commits adultery, all of the promises are of no effect, and he goes to a telestial kingdom, because when he was sealed up unto eternal life, it was with a reservation. The sealing was not to apply in the case of subsequent adultery. In other cases, through repentance, there is forgiveness for this sin which is second only to murder in the category of personal sins. (1 Cor 6:9-11; 3 Ne 30; D&C 42:24-26.)

I didn't read anything in this quote of yours that I disagreed with. In fact, I feel like the position I'm advocating is in line. Here, let me focus on this part of what McConkie says:

] What if those whose calling and election has been made sure thereafter commit grievous sins? Suppose they backslide and walk in the ways of wickedness? Or fight the truth and rebel against God--what then?

That all men commit sin, before and after baptism, and for that matter, before and after their calling and election is made sure, is self-evident. There has been only one Sinless One--the Lord Jesus who was God's own Son.

Thus in the revelation announcing the setting up of the restored church in this day, the Lord says: "There is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also." (D&C 20:32-34.)

The prophets and apostles from Adam and Enoch down, and all men, whether cleansed and sanctified from sin or not, are yet subject to and do in fact commit sin. This is the case even after men have seen the visions of eternity and been sealed by that Holy Spirit of Promise which makes their calling and election sure. Since these chosen ones have the sure promise of eternal life, and since "no unclean thing can enter into" the Father's "kingdom" (3 Ne 27:19), "or dwell in his presence" (Moses 6:57), what of sins committed after being sealed up into eternal life?

Obviously the laws of repentance still apply, and the more enlightened a person is, the more he seeks the gift of repentance, and the harder he strives to free himself from sin as often as he falls short of the divine will and becomes subject in any degree to the Master of Sin who is Lucifer. It follows that the sins of the godfearing and the righteous are continually remitted because they repent and seek the Lord anew every day and every hour.

There is a perception that having your calling and election made sure means that you have gotten to the point where you no longer sin or that you are exempt from sinning or from making mistakes. There is a lot here to be said but I want to keep this simple so understand that I'm not being extremely thorough in my explanation but don't think that I'm neglecting the whole just because I'm not mentioning it right now.

Before we can have our calling and election made sure we must be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. This is an event that occurs at some point in our life. It may occur at the time when we are baptized by water and are then confirmed. It may happen after. We may be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost and not know it. Meaning, we might have had an experience that we recognized as something powerful, real, and true, yet we did not associate that experience with being baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Now, given these things, there must come a point in a person's life when they receive this gift of the Holy Ghost. We receive it by having a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We must also receive it in the sense that we must recognize the gift that has been given or we must realize and recognize that we have been given a gift. The scriptures give us the answer as to how we can recognize that we have been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Prophets have described it as having a mighty change of heart. A burning in the bosom. Being overcome by the Spirit. Having our nature changed. All of these are descriptions of the event of being baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. I want you to know and anyone else who is reading my post, that I know, I understand, I acknowledge, and I recognize that prior to having one's calling and election made sure, one must have a mighty change of heart and have their nature changed. In several posts in the course of several months I have testified and spoken to this fact. If people are being genuine, sincere, and are paying attention to what I have been writing, they will see that this has been my position all along.

Having a mighty change of heart or having our natures changed is a real, concrete, and a literal thing which is perceivable and palpable. One way to describe this is that prior to having your nature changed, you struggled to do good. You had to strive and you did good out of a sense of duty or maybe because your priesthood leader challenged you to do good, like do your home teaching. Maybe you were motivated by guilt or maybe you were motivated by a desire to please your leaders or maybe you were motivated by a desire to be seen as a good Mormon or maybe you were really trying hard to do good even though you didn't really feel it or didn't feel the love. But, you were struggling to do good. This is how it is when we are in a carnal state or when our natures have not yet been changed by fire and the Holy Ghost. After our having this mighty change of heart or after having our natures changed, we will feel a natural disposition, desire, and willingness to do good because of a love of God and a love of others. Our desires, our motivations, have changed. Another way to describe this is that we got to a point in our life where we recognized we are nothing and that we have fallen short of God's glory and we recognize completely that we are hopeless sinners, unworthy to be in the presence of God. Let me pause here and say that this is true of everyone, no matter how righteous you think you are, you are in fact an unprofitable servant. Not everyone realizes this yet, but eventually they will. But, going back to what I was saying...We felt this sense of our own nothingness and our own filthiness and maybe in this state of depression or state of self realization you called out to God and to Christ to have mercy on you. When your heart was sufficiently broken and your spirit sufficiently contrite and when you called out to God in this state, something wonderful happened. All of a sudden you were overcome with this complete feeling of acceptance, love, joy, and forgiveness. You suddenly realized that God has this unrelenting, undying love for you and He forgives you. You recognize that even though you have been so unfaithful and adulterous in your relationship with Christ, He, Christ, has never faltered or waivered from His loyalty and faithfulness to you. This recognition overwhelms you! How can it be that someone can have such mercy, such love, such goodness towards a person who has been so filthy, so vile, and so unfaithful? It boggles the mind and it overwhelms your heart. In fact, perhaps at this point you begin to sob and to cry because of this immense feeling of love, acceptance, and forgiveness from Christ. It is at this point that something wonderful and something miraculous has occurred: God has made you clean, forgiven you, and has performed a mighty work and a wonder by replacing your stony, sinful, carnal heart with a heart of flesh. Less poetically stated, God has made you a new person. You have been born again. You have been born of the Spirit, been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost and you have been changed forever. You will be in a spiritual high for some time...but...eventually you recognize that all is not done. Eventually you recognize that you are still encompassed about by sin and decay. Eventually you recognize that although a mighty miracle has been performed, you are still full of weaknesses and still prone to sinning. But, you also know now that God is quick to forgive and quick to apply His mercy upon you. Our trials will increase, new tests will arrive, and if we continue down the path that we are on we will be sealed up unto eternal life. Joseph Smith was a very flawed individual. Abraham was a very flawed individual. Many in the scriptures who we know received the promise were very flawed individuals, yet, they received the promise. What does it mean to prove oneself? What is time to God? Are we really demonstrating to God our faithfulness, He who knows the beginning from the end? Or is it really about us believing, accepting, and recognizing the faithfulness, the power, the might, the glory, and the goodness of Christ and the Father?

Finally, God does not lie. Once He makes a promise to you, He means it. He doesn't waiver, falter, or fail. We will continue to sin. We have been conceived in sin and we live in sin. Yet, the promise remains, even if you backpedal. Unless you commit the unpardonable sin, once your calling and election has been made sure, you will have eternal life. You will be saved and will receive your exaltation.

Your assumptions and personal beliefs aside, the scriptures allow for a man or a woman to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and yet they may appear to those who are self-righteous and ready to judge and accuse as being apostate because these individuals are not acting or behaving to the standards and assumptions of the accusers. You might assume, and maybe this is the case most of the time, but you might assume that a person who has their calling and election made sure will act a certain way and will be a certain person and you might even build up in your mind this paragon of living all the laws, etc. But, yet, the scriptures allow for a person who is sealed to eternal life to commit all sorts of sins, and not lose the promise. Having said this, when I've quoted the scripture that attest to this I've also quoted the fact that the individual who commits all sorts of sins and blasphemies will of course suffer the natural consequences of their actions. They will be left to the buffetings of Satan and they won't escape the consequences that natural occur because of their choices.

Thanks for your quote, Mark, and thank you for conversing with me without accusations and in a substantive fashion. I enjoy these types of exchanges. Let me know if something I've said doesn't make sense to you. I am intensely aware of my weaknesses and I don't doubt for a second that I may be a poor communicator and unable communicate effectively. I am sincere and will do my best to explain the things that I know.

-Finrock

[Yod]

Is there a difference between being baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and being visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost?

If there is, might the one be mistaken for the other?

If there is not, why are there two phrases for the exact same thing?

[Mark]

Having spent some time reading posts on Elliaison.org from several who are following Amonhi's and others directives and counsel I have come to understand that many people have fundamental misunderstandings of the doctrine of having ones calling and election made sure.

I attribute this misunderstanding to people like Amonhi and his multiple Elliaiason contributors who have watered down and convoluted this crowning gospel doctrine to the point that people now think all they have to do is schedule out a date and ask the Lord through a 3 strep process and through multiple ways and means that are neither scriptural nor have been revealed by Prophets to us it can be granted them.

Some believe the spirit just told them that they were granted this promise. Others feel Heavenly Mother told them through revelation that this had Been granted. There are multiple accounts of different ways that people think it has been made sure to them.

There is so much more to this glorious covenant promise made between the Lord and His children. I feel strongly that counterfeits are numerous and have mislead people into thinking they have reached this stage where their calling and election has been made sure when in reality it has not.

I am distressed to see these fundamental misunderstandings because it opens the door to false revelation being purported upon unsuspecting people who just want to move forward in their progression. I encourage people to read the words of Joseph Smith and many other Prophets both modern and ancient carefully and come to really see what the details of this glorious promise are comprised of so no deception can be perpetrated upon them.

Mark,

Serious question here ---
Do you believe that a person can have their calling and election made sure without receiving the 2nd anointing ordinance in the temple, or is that ordinance necessary?
Also, if a married couple does receive the 2nd anointing ordinance, have they had their calling and election made sure?

I had a friend several years ago who was somewhat obsessed with knowing more about the 2nd anointing, and how necessary it might be to attain exaltation in the highest kingdom. Therefore, I did a lot of research into the subject, as well as asking a few temple presidents about it, but I never felt I had a clear answer. I am not asking you to provide the definitive answer, I am just wondering what your personal belief is (I will not mock it) as it seems you have also done a lot of reading on the subject.

Thanks!

Here is an interesting article for you to read about the 2nd anointing ordinance Lizzy. Lisle Brown has also written in the past extensively about this ordinance. I enjoy ready about early church practices and feel inspired at seeing the hand of the Lord in guiding the fledgling church. I am indebted to its early faithful Saints and leaders who remained faithful and who followed the inspiration they received in establishing the Kingdom for all of us to benefit from. I do have a witness that the Lord continues to guide and direct us today through Living oracles who continue to seek for the Lords will in our modern world. Some early more common practices like 2nd anointing are not as prevalent today and I have my own thoughts on reasons behind that. I do feel that there are very distinct differences between calling and election being made sure which is done between an individual and the Lord and 2nd anointing. I know the Lord will not withhold any blessing or right from his children into the eternities if they will remain faithful to Him and honor their sacred covenants made at baptism and in the Lords house Regardless of whether ordinances like the 2nd anointing are administered in mortality.

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[Finrock]

My responses in blue:

You asked the following of Obrien:



My answer is that the line is Love. Love is a true principle. It is the principle. Everything we do in the gospel, our whole life, is intended to teach us how to have Love or the Pure Love of Christ. Some things are critical to this goal, others things no so much. Some actions, some conduct, some behaviors and Love cannot coexist. Other actions, conduct, and behaviors can coexist with Love. I think many Mormons have a tendency to judge the worth or value or goodness of a person based on the Mormon Do's and Don'ts, very much like and almost identical to how the ancient Israelites used the law of Moses and their traditions as a means to measure who was good and who was evil. And, so you can go through this whole list of behaviors and be doing all of the things that a "good" Mormon should do, and not have true charity. We put a lot of stock in to things such as dressing in white shirts, wearing ties to Church, being clean shaven, and other things like that. We have the Word of Wisdom and we, speaking generally, often use this to judge a person and how close they are to Christ. There are people who are Mormons who absolutely believe that if you smoke cigarettes you are going to hell. The reality is that having the pure love of Christ and smoking cigarettes are not mutually exclusive. You can in reality do both. What is the whole point of all of these laws and all of these rules and all of these commandments? Many Mormons believe that these rules and laws and these commandments are there to prove how good a person is. The harder they are striving to keep all of these rules, the better that person is. Keep in mind I'm speaking generally now so this doesn't apply across the board, but it applies enough that I am justified in making this general statement. But, the general idea is that a really good person is going to be doing or not doing all of these good Mormon actions, conducts, or behaviors and all too often the focus is on the outward performance. The appearance of good. We can do our home teaching and not love God or love others. We can do our home teaching and love God and love others. That is why I said two people can be doing the same thing but one will go to hell and the other will go to heaven, because it comes down to the person's heart. Finrock. Do we have a prophet of god or don't we? Are we supposed to listen and heed his counsel or not? You keep ignoring the fact that for LDS, listening to the counsel of the prophet is not a matter or maybe I will or maybe I won't, I'm supposed to listen to him and I should heed his counsel.

You can have tattoos, wear earrings, wear tank tops, drink alcohol, use tobacco, and be filled with the pure love of Christ. The Mormon paradigm and Mormon traditions and Mormon norms are not the measure of who is or is not filled with the love of Christ. In the end, we cannot know. We cannot look upon our fellow man and because they do not belong to our group and because they do not adhere to our traditions and judge them. Now, as I mentioned, certain acts are in fact incompatible with the pure love of Christ. You cannot commit adultery and be filled with Charity. There is no way to lovingly commit adultery. That idea is nonsensical. Being filled with Love/Charity does have discernible signs, but they are not at all based on Mormon traditions and paradigms. We can find the fruits of Love or the fruits of the Spirit detailed in the scriptures. These fruits are respect, kindness, selflessness, peace, freedom, liberty, gentleness, meekness, humility, and others.Did George say that having tattoos, wearing earrings, tank tops,drinking alcohol etc. meant you could not be a good person and have the love of Christ for others? If he did, please show me, because I never read that in what he wrote. You impudently responded to him AS IF he had made those statements. You are guilty of perceiving things in what others write and then attacking them for it--it's a form of setting up a strawman, and it's unfair.

God is greater than the Mormon paradigm. We aren't the only children of His on this planet and using our cultural norms, traditions, and paradigms as a means to measure righteousness if folly. Love is the measure. Are you filled with the pure love of Christ? If so, you are doing well, even if you aren't following all of the do's and don'ts of Mormondom. Focus on love, not the outward vessel or the outward performances or the outward ordinances. They are not as important as being truly converted to Christ and not everyone who is truly converted to Christ will act and be like a Mormon.

-Finrock

Why are you so insistent at separating out all righteous virtues from Mormonism and those who try to practice it? Do you not see that you have judged those you call 'TBM's to be outwardly righteous, but inwardly wicked. You seem to have a problem with active, believing LDS and I'm not sure why.

Do you understand the point of this post of mine that you are quoting? From your responses in blue it appears to me you've missed the point. Before I invest time in responding to comments that are missing the point, are you sincerely interested in knowing what I am saying? I don't mind conversing, but we have to make sure we are understanding one another and I don't think you understand what it is I am saying based on what you are asserting and asking of me.

Also, write this down somewhere or commit it to memory: I am a true believing Mormon, active and happy in the Church. One could claim here that I am equivocating, but I would say I'm reclaiming the meaning of a true believing Mormon from those who have hijacked this phrase or acronym.

You should change your position at this time to reflect the reality that I'm not disaffected, disloyal, or apostate with the Church. I am in a position to assert what I am, but you are not in a position to judge what I am. If you continue with the implication or the assumption that I am not a TBM then our conversation ends because it cannot at that point be authentic.

?

-Finrock

I guess I'm missing your point, but please don't try to explain it to me. I'm afraid that you are a conundrum. You say you are 'tbm', but you criticize tbms. I never said you were disaffected, disloyal or apostate, all I know is what you write. I said you sound judgmental and critical of others that you accuse of only putting on a show of religiosity. If you think I'm wrong, you might want to read through your own posts. Maybe you are not expressing yourself as you'd like to. Maybe you are sending messages you don't mean to send. There seems to be a disconnect in how your perceive your own views and how I and others perceive your views.

Here's a thought: If you want others to believe you are 'TBM' maybe you could refrain from constantly criticizing those you identify as 'TBM'.

I'm not interested in proving myself to you, AI2.0. I'm interested in a sincere dialogue. If you want to make assumptions and mischaracterize my words so that you can judge me, that is your problem, not my problem.

Maybe I'm not expressing myself as I like and clearly there is a disconnect in how you perceive my views. But I'm sincere and I'm ready to converse with any sincere party who is also interested in dialoging on equal terms. I'm ready to clarify anything that I've written with a person who is sincerely interested in understanding and dialoging. If you don't fit the bill, then don't participate. There are many others on this forum who are happy to engage in a sincere dialog.

If I'm constantly criticizing TBM, then I'm constantly criticizing myself. I'm not afraid to look in the mirror. But, you mischaracterize my words once more because I'm not constantly criticizing TBM. I'm criticizing pharisaical notions and dispositions and attempting to identify what in my view constitutes the true meaning of religion.

-Finrock

[seekingtruth]

There is a perception that having your calling and election made sure means that you have gotten to the point where you no longer sin or that you are exempt from sinning or from making mistakes. There is a lot here to be said but I want to keep this simple so understand that I'm not being extremely thorough in my explanation but don't think that I'm neglecting the whole just because I'm not mentioning it right now.

Before we can have our calling and election made sure we must be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. This is an event that occurs at some point in our life. It may occur at the time when we are baptized by water and are then confirmed. It may happen after. We may be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost and not know it. Meaning, we might have had an experience that we recognized as something powerful, real, and true, yet we did not associate that experience with being baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Now, given these things, there must come a point in a person's life when they receive this gift of the Holy Ghost. We receive it by having a broken heart and a contrite spirit. We must also receive it in the sense that we must recognize the gift that has been given or we must realize and recognize that we have been given a gift. The scriptures give us the answer as to how we can recognize that we have been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. Prophets have described it as having a mighty change of heart. A burning in the bosom. Being overcome by the Spirit. Having our nature changed. All of these are descriptions of the event of being baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. I want you to know and anyone else who is reading my post, that I know, I understand, I acknowledge, and I recognize that prior to having one's calling and election made sure, one must have a mighty change of heart and have their nature changed. In several posts in the course of several months I have testified and spoken to this fact. If people are being genuine, sincere, and are paying attention to what I have been writing, they will see that this has been my position all along.

Having a mighty change of heart or having our natures changed is a real, concrete, and a literal thing which is perceivable and palpable. One way to describe this is that prior to having your nature changed, you struggled to do good. You had to strive and you did good out of a sense of duty or maybe because your priesthood leader challenged you to do good, like do your home teaching. Maybe you were motivated by guilt or maybe you were motivated by a desire to please your leaders or maybe you were motivated by a desire to be seen as a good Mormon or maybe you were really trying hard to do good even though you didn't really feel it or didn't feel the love. But, you were struggling to do good. This is how it is when we are in a carnal state or when our natures have not yet been changed by fire and the Holy Ghost. After our having this mighty change of heart or after having our natures changed, we will feel a natural disposition, desire, and willingness to do good because of a love of God and a love of others. Our desires, our motivations, have changed. Another way to describe this is that we got to a point in our life where we recognized we are nothing and that we have fallen short of God's glory and we recognize completely that we are hopeless sinners, unworthy to be in the presence of God. Let me pause here and say that this is true of everyone, no matter how righteous you think you are, you are in fact an unprofitable servant. Not everyone realizes this yet, but eventually they will. But, going back to what I was saying...We felt this sense of our own nothingness and our own filthiness and maybe in this state of depression or state of self realization you called out to God and to Christ to have mercy on you. When your heart was sufficiently broken and your spirit sufficiently contrite and when you called out to God in this state, something wonderful happened. All of a sudden you were overcome with this complete feeling of acceptance, love, joy, and forgiveness. You suddenly realized that God has this unrelenting, undying love for you and He forgives you. You recognize that even though you have been so unfaithful and adulterous in your relationship with Christ, He, Christ, has never faltered or waivered from His loyalty and faithfulness to you. This recognition overwhelms you! How can it be that someone can have such mercy, such love, such goodness towards a person who has been so filthy, so vile, and so unfaithful? It boggles the mind and it overwhelms your heart. In fact, perhaps at this point you begin to sob and to cry because of this immense feeling of love, acceptance, and forgiveness from Christ. It is at this point that something wonderful and something miraculous has occurred: God has made you clean, forgiven you, and has performed a mighty work and a wonder by replacing your stony, sinful, carnal heart with a heart of flesh. Less poetically stated, God has made you a new person. You have been born again. You have been born of the Spirit, been baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost and you have been changed forever. You will be in a spiritual high for some time...but...eventually you recognize that all is not done. Eventually you recognize that you are still encompassed about by sin and decay. Eventually you recognize that although a mighty miracle has been performed, you are still full of weaknesses and still prone to sinning. But, you also know now that God is quick to forgive and quick to apply His mercy upon you. Our trials will increase, new tests will arrive, and if we continue down the path that we are on we will be sealed up unto eternal life. Joseph Smith was a very flawed individual. Abraham was a very flawed individual. Many in the scriptures who we know received the promise were very flawed individuals, yet, they received the promise. What does it mean to prove oneself? What is time to God? Are we really demonstrating to God our faithfulness, He who knows the beginning from the end? Or is it really about us believing, accepting, and recognizing the faithfulness, the power, the might, the glory, and the goodness of Christ and the Father?

Finally, God does not lie. Once He makes a promise to you, He means it. He doesn't waiver, falter, or fail. We will continue to sin. We have been conceived in sin and we live in sin. Yet, the promise remains, even if you backpedal. Unless you commit the unpardonable sin, once your calling and election has been made sure, you will have eternal life. You will be saved and will receive your exaltation.

Beautifully stated. Thank you.

[diligently seeking]

I am not doubting that there are those who have Seen our Lord, I to have written sacred things in my Journals, (which may one day be considered scripture). I guess I get bothered when people go on forums and share details that an experience so sacred, then becomes a detailed account. I notice moroni states " I have seen Jesus", He does not describe what it felt like to his body, the experience in detail or anything else about this personal experience. For every true experience , I also assume there are false ones, as shown in Moses, and Adams account.

2 Nephi 4:
15 And upon these I write the things of my soul, and many of the scriptures which are engraven upon the plates of brass. For my soul delighteth in the scriptures, and my heart pondereth them, and writeth them for the learning and the profit of my children.

16 Behold, my soul delighteth in the things of the Lord; and my heart pondereth continually upon the things which I have seen and heard.

17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.

19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.

20 My God hath been my support; he hath led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.

21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming of my flesh.

22 He hath confounded mine enemies, unto the causing of them to quake before me.

23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me knowledge by visions in the night-time.

24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty prayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.

25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.

26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath visited men in so much mercy, why should my heart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?

27 And why should I yield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to temptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my peace and afflict my soul? Why am I angry because of mine enemy?

28 Awake, my soul! No longer droop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the enemy of my soul.

29 Do not anger again because of mine enemies. Do not slacken my strength because of mine afflictions.

30 Rejoice, O my heart, and cry unto the Lord, and say: O Lord, I will praise thee forever; yea, my soul will rejoice in thee, my God, and the rock of my salvation.

31 O Lord, wilt thou redeem my soul? Wilt thou deliver me out of the hands of mine enemies? Wilt thou make me that I may shake at the appearance of sin?

32 May the gates of hell be shut continually before me, because that my heart is broken and my spirit is contrite! O Lord, wilt thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may walk in the path of the low valley, that I may be strict in the plain road!

33 O Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness! O Lord, wilt thou make a way for mine escape before mine enemies! Wilt thou make my path straight before me! Wilt thou not place a stumbling block in my way—but that thou wouldst clear my way before me, and hedge not up my way, but the ways of mine enemy.

34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

35 Yea, I know that God will give liberally to him that asketh. Yea, my God will give me, if I ask not amiss; therefore I will lift up my voice unto thee; yea, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness. Behold, my voice shall forever ascend up unto thee, my rock and mine everlasting God. Amen.