Making Your Calling and Election Sure

[Finrock]

LDS.org assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" = following the church leaders. They are wrong. Plain and simple.

You are the one who's wrong, I'm afraid. It's probably on account of usual your knee jerk reaction to 'kick against the pricks' at every little thing that comes from the church. What is it with the little one liner jabs you throw out against the church and our leaders?

'Undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness' obviously means living the commandments, following the example of the Savior each day of your life, loving, serving and having complete integrity. Listening carefully to the promptings of the Holy Ghost and following them. Controlling your anger, frustration, impatience with those around you. Reading and pondering the words of God and humbly listening and learning from his servants--church leaders and those spiritually more mature people around you, standing in Holy Places in your daily life, praying and developing a relationship with God that you come to know him and love him--slowly overcoming all desire to do evil or commit sin. Now, if you want to say that's 'following church leaders', you must have some practically translated leaders--I don't. Mine are more human than that. They are great men and women, but they aren't examples of 'undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness'. Most of them are like me, they are striving diligently, but they have plenty of weaknesses. I don't try to emulate their weaknesses--but I do try to follow their good examples and the areas where they are much better than I am.

The trials that refine us to where we ought to be will not be possible unless we have an assurance from God that we are His. Having your calling and election made sure is not the end of your progression. It is a new beginning. There will be tests that if you don't know that God will not abandon you and that you are His, then you will falter and fail. If we have a sure and solid foundation upon which to build, because it has been confirmed to us by the Holy Spirit of Promise, then this is where we draw our strength from when the tempest is tossed, the winds are howling, and everything around us seems to be falling apart. But, with our feet firmly planted on the sure foundation, we will see these things for what they are and be able to remain faithful knowing that our weaknesses and foibles are not sufficient to break the seal that God has placed upon us. When God seals us, no power in heaven or hell can break that seal. Our weaknesses will continue to exist. Having your calling and election made sure does not mean that you never make mistakes or never do anything wrong. It is an assurance that even if you falter because we are saturated by this fallible nature and are living and conceived in sin, our place is assured. This gives us strength and knowledge that all things will work out for our good. Without this assurance the trials that truly refine us will not be possible because we will break in to pieces like glass.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

In your personal opinion, Mark, is it ever appropriate to disagree with the Church's position or a Church leader's position? Meaning, is there any room in your view for having a dissenting voice? These are sincere questions which I believe are relevant to this discussion.

I know that you were not asking me, but I will respond. There is a difference between official positions, and individual positions. I think that when you disagree with official positions, you need to reevaluate your positions. I will give you 3 examples

1) I know that the Church supports Abortion in case of rape, incest, or the health of the mother. I asked a Bishop if a girl/woman was pregnant as a result of either rape or incest, could he consider COUNSELING the girl/woman to get the abortion, rather than just be willing to accept that it may so traumatic that she may not be able/willing to go through with the pregnancy. He said he could conceive of such a situation. I cannot. If I were a bishop, I would not condemn a girl/woman who decides to have an abortion in such a circumstance , but I could never counsel her to do it.

2) I know that the church baptizes undocumented aliens into the Church. Not only do they do that, but they also send them on missions within the United States. I struggle with first the idea of baptizing someone who must lie and deceive for them to live in the U.S. I further have problems with granting temple recommend to those who lie and deceive to live here.

I accept that there are appropriate times for lying and deception. If I lived in Europe during WW2, and I was hiding a Jewish family in my attic, I would have no problem looking a Gestapo agent in the eye and lying about it. I just am not sure about lying and breaking the law so that I might live a better life. However, those are shoes, I have never walked in, so I might have a different view if I had the same choice.

My view on this is that, I don't understand why the church allows this, but since it is not my stewardship, I will leave it as I don't understand, rather than deciding that the church s WRONG.

I understand that both examples involve my point of view being MORE restrictive rather than less restrictive that the advice of the church's leaders recommendations.

I guess if is more restrictive, I would decide that unless it was important for living a good life, I would give up nothing to follow it, even if I don't understand/believe it.

3) Obrien has been bleating about tattoos. When I was in the Marines, I thought it would be cool to have an Eagle Globe and Anchor tattooed to my arm. Largely because of church standards, I did not. What have I lost? Even if the leaders were wrong, have I really lost anything by living my life with no Eagle Globe and Anchor tattooed to my arm?

Regards,

George Clay

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

It's not about the outward appearance, its what is in the inside of your temple that matters. Is your temple housing a holy spirit or some other spirit? We can look exceptionally beautiful on the outside, yet be filled with death and decay on the inside.

The line is Love. Are you using the law to bless others or as a way to feel superior? If you are not filled with the Love of Christ, then all your works will be a curse to you. Two people will be doing the same thing but one will be saved and the other will go to hell. Why? Because one was motivated by love of God and others and the other was motivated by something else.

Place your focus on the inner vessel as opposed to the outward appearance. The line is Love. Either you have it or you are a walking corpse, doing dead works.

Certainly if one is puffed up with pride, even if they are outwardly righteous, they are not righteous. However, beyond that your logic falls apart. Just because doing good things to look righteous is bad, that doesn't make doing bad things good...even if lovingly.


Lovingly committing adultery still is not justified.....even if lovingly!

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Finrock,

It's not about the outward appearance, its what is in the inside of your temple that matters. Is your temple housing a holy spirit or some other spirit? We can look exceptionally beautiful on the outside, yet be filled with death and decay on the inside.

The line is Love. Are you using the law to bless others or as a way to feel superior? If you are not filled with the Love of Christ, then all your works will be a curse to you. Two people will be doing the same thing but one will be saved and the other will go to hell. Why? Because one was motivated by love of God and others and the other was motivated by something else.

Place your focus on the inner vessel as opposed to the outward appearance. The line is Love. Either you have it or you are a walking corpse, doing dead works.

Certainly if one is puffed up with pride, even if they are outwardly righteous, they are not righteous. However, beyond that your logic falls apart. Just because doing good things to look righteous is bad, that doesn't make doing bad things good...even if lovingly.


Lovingly committing adultery still is not justified.....even if lovingly!

Regards,

George Clay

Is this a serious response? Do you actually believe that being motivated by Love of God and others equates to such concepts as lovingly committing adultery? What does that even mean? You've equivocated.

If you don't have charity then you are doing dead works. You can go through all the motions of being a TBM and whatever that entails but if you have enmity, you are a beautiful sepulchre with a dead and rotting corpse inside. If you aren't motivated by love of God and others then you are not on the right path, no matter how perfectly you live every law and tenet of our religion.

A man with a tattoo who smokes cigarettes but loves his neighbor and his enemies is living more righteously than a TBM who goes to church every Sunday, pays their tithing, strives to do their callings, obeys the word if wisdom, does their HT, etc., but doesn't have the love of God in His heart and has enmity towards outsiders and feels superior because of their strict adherence to the laws and striving to be the picture perfect Mormon. There are many motivations for acting and doing good works, but only a pure heart filled with the Love of Christ is justified in their good works. A bitter fountain cannot produce sweet water.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

e·quiv·o·cate
[əˈkwivəˌkāt]
VERB

use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself:
"“Not that we are aware of,” she equivocated"
synonyms: prevaricate · be evasive · be noncommittal · be vague · [more]

How am I using ambiguous language and what am I concealing?

You are the one always offering false choices!

A man with a tattoo who smokes cigarettes but loves his neighbor and his enemies is living more righteously than a TBM who goes to church every Sunday, pays their tithing, strives to do their callings, obeys the word if wisdom, does their HT, etc., but doesn't have the love of God in His heart and has enmity towards outsiders and feels superior because of their strict adherence to the laws and striving to be the picture perfect Mormon. There are many motivations for acting and doing good works, but only a pure heart filled with the Love of Christ is justified in their good works. A bitter fountain cannot produce sweet water.

You are either equivocating yourself, or just repeating over, and over, and over , and over the same stupid false choice!

While you are not justified in commiting vartious sins, the other choice is not to do the right thing so that you can feel superior.

The real right choice is to do the right thing honestly and with true intent., But you don't accept that option


... unless... you are accusing ME of

but doesn't have the love of God in His heart and has enmity towards outsiders and feels superior because of their strict adherence to the laws and striving to be the picture perfect Mormon

but you don't have the cojones to say so directly so you ...equivocate... hmmmm?


Regards,

George Clay

[Suntumbler]

The Two Comforters, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith,comp. Joseph Fielding Smith (SLC: Deseret Book Co., 1938), 149-151.

There are two Comforters spoken of. One is the Holy Ghost, the same as given on the day of Pentecost, and that all Saints receive after faith, repentance, and baptism. This first Comforter or Holy Ghost has no other effect than pure intelligence. It is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence.

The Second Comforter

The other Comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest, and perhaps understood by few of this generation. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted.

When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure, then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter, which the Lord hath promised the Saints, as is recorded in the testimony of St. John, in the 14th chapter, from the 12th to the 27th verses.

Note the 16, 17, 18, 21, 23 verses-

Now what is this other Comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ Himself; and this is the sum and substance of the whole matter; that when any man obtains this last Comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend him, or appear unto him from time to time, and even He will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him, and the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him, and the Lord will teach him face to face, and he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the Kingdom of God; and this is the state and place the ancient Saints arrived at when they had such glorious visions--Isaiah, Ezekiel, John upon the Isle of Patmos, St. Paul in the three heavens, and all the Saints who held communion with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn.

The Spirit of Revelation

The Spirit of Revelation is in connection with these blessings. A person may profit by noticing the first intimation of the spirit of revelation; for instance, when you feel pure intelligence flowing into you, it may give you sudden strokes of ideas, so that by noticing it, you may find it fulfilled the same day or soon; (i.e.,) those things that were presented unto your minds by the Spirit of God, will come to pass; and thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it, you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.

[Finrock]

Finrock,

e·quiv·o·cate
[əˈkwivəˌkāt]
VERB

use ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing oneself:
"“Not that we are aware of,” she equivocated"
synonyms: prevaricate · be evasive · be noncommittal · be vague · [more]

How am I using ambiguous language and what am I concealing?

You are the one always offering false choices!

A man with a tattoo who smokes cigarettes but loves his neighbor and his enemies is living more righteously than a TBM who goes to church every Sunday, pays their tithing, strives to do their callings, obeys the word if wisdom, does their HT, etc., but doesn't have the love of God in His heart and has enmity towards outsiders and feels superior because of their strict adherence to the laws and striving to be the picture perfect Mormon. There are many motivations for acting and doing good works, but only a pure heart filled with the Love of Christ is justified in their good works. A bitter fountain cannot produce sweet water.

You are either equivocating yourself, or just repeating over, and over, and over , and over the same stupid false choice!

While you are not justified in commiting vartious sins, the other choice is not to do the right thing so that you can feel superior.

The real right choice is to do the right thing honestly and with true intent., But you don't accept that option


... unless... you are accusing ME of

but doesn't have the love of God in His heart and has enmity towards outsiders and feels superior because of their strict adherence to the laws and striving to be the picture perfect Mormon

but you don't have the cojones to say so directly so you ...equivocate... hmmmm?


Regards,

George Clay

Using an ambiguous term in more than one sense, thus making an argument misleading.

Here is how you equivocated...

In my post I was quite unambiguously making the claim that if our actions or works are not motivated by Love/Charity then we are not acting in righteousness no matter what we are doing. In your response you ignored my usage of the word Love and you ignored my whole point, you then further changed the case of the word I used (from Love to lovingly) and finally you used a misleading or alternate usage of the word Love/Charity/Pure Love of Christ in an attempt to argue that my position isn't logically tenable. You built a caricature of what I really said by making some absurd argument that I didn't make using an equivocation that resulted in a straw man argument.

I am speaking about universal principles that apply to all. Please do not accuse me of things I have not done unless you can back up your assertion about me with facts and please do not attack me personally and try to malign my character. Also, please do not speak to me using vulgar language with references to my testicles or any of my other sexual organs/parts.

My point still stands and my position is very important and critical to understanding what it means to act righteously. If we are not motivated by Love/Charity/Pure Love of Christ, then our actions are a curse against us. People who have love of God and of others are on the right path. People can be motivated by many different reasons in trying to obey the laws and tenets of our religion, but the one and true motivation that will save us is being motivated by love of God and others. You can go through all of the motions of doing all of the things a "good" Mormon ought to do, yet if you have not Love, you are nothing and truly just doing dead works. The law and the prophets all point to Charity/Love. Our outward works and outward appearances don't matter, but the condition of our hearts does. Using the poetic language of scripture and your reference to us being temples I want to let you know that our body is a temple that houses either a Holy Spirit or an Unholy Spirit. The outside of our temple and how it appears is irrelevant to the inside of our temple, meaning, the condition of our heart, meaning the condition of our spirit, meaning, are we filled with love of God and love for others.

Now, If you have something to contribute in sincerity, I look forward to interacting with you. If you are going to use rhetorical devices to troll, use vulgar references to my sexual organs, and/or try to distract from my point and to attack me personally, I will ignore you and report your posts.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

My point still stands and my position is very important and critical to understanding what it means to act righteously. If we are not motivated by Love/Charity/Pure Love of Christ, then our actions are a curse against us. People who have love of God and of others are on the right path. People can be motivated by many different reasons in trying to obey the laws and tenets of our religion, but the one and true motivation that will save us is being motivated by love of God and others. You can go through all of the motions of doing all of the things a "good" Mormon ought to do, yet if you have not Love, you are nothing and truly just doing dead works. The law and the prophets all point to Charity/Love. Our outward works and outward appearances don't matter, but the condition of our hearts does. Using the poetic language of scripture and your reference to us being temples I want to let you know that our body is a temple that houses either a Holy Spirit or an Unholy Spirit. The outside of our temple and how it appears is irrelevant to the inside of our temple, meaning, the condition of our heart, meaning the condition of our spirit, meaning, are we filled with love of God and love for others.

Nobody is saying that it is OK to be hypocritical, proud, or to go through the motions of doing right. You make this knee jerk response to any suggestion that one would do well to follow the Prophet, or the leaders of the LDS church, as if you are contending against TBMs as if you are saying that it is OK to do evil things as long as it is done with love, but following the Prophet is bad because it means that one is proud and judgmental.

Yet you respond this way over, and over and over and over, as if you are, responding to some fallacy in the argument to follow the guidance of the prophet, the leaders of the church or maybe the instructions one might find on LDS.ord.

So if you are not equivocating yourself, are you simply repeating something that nobody disagrees with over and over as a knee jerk reaction every time somebody suggests following the prophet, or the good information one can find at LDS.or, or am I really (and I am serious about this ) too stupid to figure out the point you are really trying to make?


Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Finrock,

My point still stands and my position is very important and critical to understanding what it means to act righteously. If we are not motivated by Love/Charity/Pure Love of Christ, then our actions are a curse against us. People who have love of God and of others are on the right path. People can be motivated by many different reasons in trying to obey the laws and tenets of our religion, but the one and true motivation that will save us is being motivated by love of God and others. You can go through all of the motions of doing all of the things a "good" Mormon ought to do, yet if you have not Love, you are nothing and truly just doing dead works. The law and the prophets all point to Charity/Love. Our outward works and outward appearances don't matter, but the condition of our hearts does. Using the poetic language of scripture and your reference to us being temples I want to let you know that our body is a temple that houses either a Holy Spirit or an Unholy Spirit. The outside of our temple and how it appears is irrelevant to the inside of our temple, meaning, the condition of our heart, meaning the condition of our spirit, meaning, are we filled with love of God and love for others.

Nobody is saying that it is OK to be hypocritical, proud, or to go through the motions of doing right. You make this knee jerk response to any suggestion that one would do well to follow the Prophet, or the leaders of the LDS church, as if you are contending against TBMs as if you are saying that it is OK to do evil things as long as it is done with love, but following the Prophet is bad because it means that one is proud and judgmental.

Yet you respond this way over, and over and over and over, as if you are, responding to some fallacy in the argument to follow the guidance of the prophet, the leaders of the church or maybe the instructions one might find on LDS.ord.

So if you are not equivocating yourself, are you simply repeating something that nobody disagrees with over and over as a knee jerk reaction every time somebody suggests following the prophet, or the good information one can find at LDS.or, or am I really (and I am serious about this ) too stupid to figure out the point you are really trying to make?


Regards,

George Clay

You asked the following of Obrien:

So I guess your body is not a temple. Where do you draw the line? Coffee? Alcohol? Marijuana? Hard Drugs? self mutilation?

Where is the line?

Regards,

George Clay

My answer is that the line is Love. Love is a true principle. It is the principle. Everything we do in the gospel, our whole life, is intended to teach us how to have Love or the Pure Love of Christ. Some things are critical to this goal, others things no so much. Some actions, some conduct, some behaviors and Love cannot coexist. Other actions, conduct, and behaviors can coexist with Love. I think many Mormons have a tendency to judge the worth or value or goodness of a person based on the Mormon Do's and Don'ts, very much like and almost identical to how the ancient Israelites used the law of Moses and their traditions as a means to measure who was good and who was evil. And, so you can go through this whole list of behaviors and be doing all of the things that a "good" Mormon should do, and not have true charity. We put a lot of stock in to things such as dressing in white shirts, wearing ties to Church, being clean shaven, and other things like that. We have the Word of Wisdom and we, speaking generally, often use this to judge a person and how close they are to Christ. There are people who are Mormons who absolutely believe that if you smoke cigarettes you are going to hell. The reality is that having the pure love of Christ and smoking cigarettes are not mutually exclusive. You can in reality do both. What is the whole point of all of these laws and all of these rules and all of these commandments? Many Mormons believe that these rules and laws and these commandments are there to prove how good a person is. The harder they are striving to keep all of these rules, the better that person is. Keep in mind I'm speaking generally now so this doesn't apply across the board, but it applies enough that I am justified in making this general statement. But, the general idea is that a really good person is going to be doing or not doing all of these good Mormon actions, conducts, or behaviors and all too often the focus is on the outward performance. The appearance of good. We can do our home teaching and not love God or love others. We can do our home teaching and love God and love others. That is why I said two people can be doing the same thing but one will go to hell and the other will go to heaven, because it comes down to the person's heart.

You can have tattoos, wear earrings, wear tank tops, drink alcohol, use tobacco, and be filled with the pure love of Christ. The Mormon paradigm and Mormon traditions and Mormon norms are not the measure of who is or is not filled with the love of Christ. In the end, we cannot know. We cannot look upon our fellow man and because they do not belong to our group and because they do not adhere to our traditions and judge them. Now, as I mentioned, certain acts are in fact incompatible with the pure love of Christ. You cannot commit adultery and be filled with Charity. There is no way to lovingly commit adultery. That idea is nonsensical. Being filled with Love/Charity does have discernible signs, but they are not at all based on Mormon traditions and paradigms. We can find the fruits of Love or the fruits of the Spirit detailed in the scriptures. These fruits are respect, kindness, selflessness, peace, freedom, liberty, gentleness, meekness, humility, and others.

God is greater than the Mormon paradigm. We aren't the only children of His on this planet and using our cultural norms, traditions, and paradigms as a means to measure righteousness if folly. Love is the measure. Are you filled with the pure love of Christ? If so, you are doing well, even if you aren't following all of the do's and don'ts of Mormondom. Focus on love, not the outward vessel or the outward performances or the outward ordinances. They are not as important as being truly converted to Christ and not everyone who is truly converted to Christ will act and be like a Mormon.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

You can have tattoos, wear earrings, wear tank tops, drink alcohol, use tobacco, and be filled with the pure love of Christ. The Mormon paradigm and Mormon traditions and Mormon norms are not the measure of who is or is not filled with the love of Christ.

True, but irrelevant. You somehow seem to think that Charity or the pure Love of Christ, and following commandments are mutually exclusive. I can think of no other reason why every time someone suggests, finding out the Truth in many ways including the words of the prophet, the knowledge in LDS org, you immediately slam them as if that is CONTRARY to seeking the Pure Love of Christ. Why else to you always bring that up as if they are mutually exclusive ideas?

However, if you look more carefully, not only are they not mutually exclusive events. It actually IS IMPORTANT to seek out truth and knowledge, especially from the Lord's anointed prophet, and other sources provided for us. If you read

Moroni 7:42-45

42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.

43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.

44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.

45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

You will see that One with Charity.. the Pure love of Christ does not rejoice in iniquity and rejoices in truth. One might say that one with Charity Seeks out truth.

So can one with Tattoos, or who drinks alcohol, or uses tobacco, be filled with the pure love of Christ? Yes, if they do not know better. But not if they do. By the way, avoiding learning the truth doesn't cut it either, because one who is filled with the Pure love of Christ will seek it out.'


Regards,

George Clay

[Obrien]

Obrien

you say,

LDS.org assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" = following the church leaders. They are wrong. Plain and simple.

So I guess that means

Obrien assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" ≠ following the church leaders. He is right Plain and simple

You twist my words here, amigo. There is not a perfect overlap between teachings on LDS.org, "the church" and "that undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness". The information you get on LDS.org may change. The essays posted on LDS.org have re-written what the "cause of righteousness" is, between today and my baptism back in the 70's. My only point is to take Christ's teachings from the church, and use them as your lodestone in taking decisions for your life, along with heeding to the Holy Ghost.

Since you used that to rebut my comments where I referred to articles in LDS.org. I guess to you LDS.org, is not a valid source of information. You provided no rebuttal to my comments other than disparaging LDS.org, and LDS leaders, except your 1 brain cell that remains after breathing and other bodily functions.
Rebuttal provided, above ^^^

You think this is actually rational?
You think viewing the world and your place in it through the lens of LDS.org is rational? Grow up, George.

you also say

But white shirts, minivans, unpierced male ears, tattoo-less bodies, covered shoulders etc are ALSO viewed by TBMs as part of a Christ centered life. However, these things are vain and foolish traditions that bind us down and cause us to become superior in our daily walk over the tattooed, tank top wearing rabble. Pride of our righteousness because we follow vain traditions is the real killer of a Christ centered life.

So I guess your body is not a temple. Where do you draw the line? Coffee? Alcohol? Marijuana? Hard Drugs? self mutilation?

Where is the line?
I view my body as a temple, certainly. I am thankful for it. FYI, I am tattoo free, piercing free, jewelry free, marijuana free and have a normal haircut. I draw the line at realizing that men are that they might have joy, and that the Lord has made all things for our use, with prudence and thanksgiving (see 2 Nephi and DC 59). I believe if "it" occurs naturally or via natural processes, "it's" probably not too bad for your temple. If you have to cook "it" up in a tub, and "it" might explode and kill you, it's probably not good for your temple, and I'd certainly draw the line before that point. How do you protect your temple from non- WoW items, like over eating, remote controls, sedentary lifestyle, radio waves, cell phone electromagnetics, vehicle exhaust, pesticides, GMO foods, etc that may be polluting your temple? To paraphrase a teaching from the Boss, there's a lot more to keeping the temple clean that what goes in the temple - it's far more important what comes out of the temple.

Regards,
Peace,

George Clay
Lieutenant General Obrien - Nauvoo Legion

Hi George. Sorry for the break in conversation. I am not a diligent forum user these days. Answers / comments above in BLUE.

[gclayjr]

Obrien,

Good to know you have a life outside of LDSFF. No need to apologize for a tardy response.

You twist my words here, amigo. There is not a perfect overlap between teachings on LDS.org, "the church" and "that undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness". The information you get on LDS.org may change. The essays posted on LDS.org have re-written what the "cause of righteousness" is, between today and my baptism back in the 70's. My only point is to take Christ's teachings from the church, and use them as your lodestone in taking decisions for your life, along with heeding to the Holy Ghost, rather than relying on LDS.org, "the church", "the prophet", "temple covenants" etc or any other source of inspiration that is NOT of Christ.

I can accept that there are multiple sources of knowledge. I do not necessarily think that everything on LDS.org is infallible However, unlike so many here, I don't just pull things out of my A$$. So when I respond, I try and cite sources, and references. I also look things up, before I respond in case the Gospel according to George Clay does not add up. You did not make any arguments against my argument, let alone cite any sources to refute my claims. So what goes through your brain to jump on someone for referencing LDS.org, without any argument as to why it is wrong? That looks like slamming LDS.org, not as infallible, but as an unreliable source, not even to be referenced. SO why slam my reference, if you pose no valid reason for it to be wrong?????

I view my body as a temple, certainly. I am thankful for it. FYI, I am tattoo free, piercing free, jewelry free, marijuana free and have a normal haircut. I draw the line at realizing that men are that they might have joy, and that the Lord has made all things for our use, with prudence and thanksgiving (see 2 Nephi and DC 59). I believe if "it" occurs naturally or via natural processes, "it's" probably not too bad for your temple. If you have to cook "it" up in a tub, and "it" might explode and kill you, it's probably not good for your temple, and I'd certainly draw the line before that point. How do you protect your temple from non- WoW items, like over eating, remote controls, sedentary lifestyle, radio waves, cell phone electromagnetics, vehicle exhaust, pesticides, GMO foods, etc that may be polluting your temple? To paraphrase a teaching from the Boss, there's a lot more to keeping the temple clean that what goes in the temple - it's far more important what comes out of the temple.

Maybe this somewhat answers my question. What is the source of your assertion? Or do you just go with what you want to believe, without any research into whether it is valid or not.

Like I said. I don't choose to pull things out of my A$$. If you want any respect from me for your opinion, source it!

Regards,

George Clay
Captain USMCR

[Finrock]

True, but irrelevant. You somehow seem to think that Charity or the pure Love of Christ, and following commandments are mutually exclusive. I can think of no other reason why every time someone suggests, finding out the Truth in many ways including the words of the prophet, the knowledge in LDS org, you immediately slam them as if that is CONTRARY to seeking the Pure Love of Christ. Why else to you always bring that up as if they are mutually exclusive ideas?

No, I think that the reason why we have commandments are so that we can learn to love God and love others. I know this gets said a lot, but it's important to recognize that the two great commandments that matter the most are love of God and love others and that is why ALL of these other commandments exist is so that we have a way to learn to love God and love others. This being true does not mean that our goal is to learn to perfectly live each and every Do and Don't. Clearly we can act in ways which are technically breaking A commandment, but yet we are being true to THE commandment: Love God and love others!

Speaking in generalities here: You are given instructions on what to do and how to do it when you don't know what to do or how to do something. If you already know what to do and how to do something you don't need anyone to give you instructions. We are not supposed to be perpetually told what to do and how to do it. We should be actively applying ourselves and get to the point as quickly as possible where we can act without being directed or told what to do. Employers desire employees who understand the principles and are capable of independently going about doing their job.

We aren't designed to perpetually be commanded and directed by God or His prophets. God wants us to gain true Love. He wants us to love, just like He loves us. When we don't know how to love, then God does us a great favor in telling us how to do it. He gives us tools that will help us to understand the principle. He places us in situations where we see that we can't obey all the rules, all of the time, and in all situations. He wants us to accept His invitation to allow Him to fill our hearts full. In fact, what He is really inviting us in all of these situations is for us to allow Him to change our hearts, or to change our spirit. He wants to literally change our nature so that we recognize, understand, desire, and seek after Love. Once we gain understanding through the grace of Jesus Christ and we have had our hearts changed because we realized our fallen state and nature and the futility of trying to the Do's and Don'ts then we are in a position where we no longer need to be commanded or told how to love. We know how to love and because we know how to love, we begin to know what to do and how to be independent of general commandments, rules, and standards. Through Love/Spirit we can discern the situation and make decisions based on our new intuition. Remember, our hearts can be changed through the atonement of Jesus Christ, and so our new intuition is focused on acting in according to the principles of Love/Charity. It is in fact following and listening to the Holy Spirit. Our actions are no longer based on trying to follow general guidelines, but our actions are based on promptings from the Holy Ghost.

It is a journey for sure and I don't mean to make it sound like all of these things are accomplished in a twinkling of an eye, but we are made, designed, and intended to begin to act independently from the well-spring of life that has been planted in to our chest through the power, mercy, and merits of Jesus Christ. That was a bit poetic, so I will try to say it more clearly. God intends to change our hearts and our very natures. Once we allow Him to do this, we now have within us a Holy intuition which is Good and which if we listen to, regardless of what anyone or others might say, we will be lead to Christ and become partakers of eternal life with Him and with God the Father, being One.

42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.

43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.

44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.

45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

I like this scripture. We cannot have faith and hope unless we are meek and lowly of heart. Why must we be meek and lowly of heart before we can have faith and hope? Or why can't we be prideful and high minded and still have faith and hope? It is because we must recognize that we are incapable of obtaining charity even if we keep all of the commandments, because of our fallen and sinful state. When we are meek and lowly of heart we recognize that we need God in our life. This recognition leads to having faith in God, having heard by testimony that He is able to provide us the peace and joy we cannot obtain through our carnal strength or intuition. Because of our faith in God, we learn about His mercy and His love and His kindness towards us and we begin to have a hope that our carnal natures can be changed by His matchless power and mercy. With our faith and with our hope and with our meekness and lowliness of heart, we seek, ask, beg, plead for God to change our natures. At this point we are ready to receive the gift God has already freely offered us and He proceeds to do a mighty work and wonder within our lives. Through the power of Jesus Christ our very natures, our very spirit, is made holy and within us is placed a heart with the capacity to have Charity or the Pure Love of Christ. We can know that our natures have been changed when we begin to feel and our once natural inclinations are replaced with long suffering, kindness, without envy, humble, selfless, peacemakers, pure minded, and rejoicing in all good, light, and truthful things. We are no longer pessimistic, we trust completely in God, feel joy because of our hope, and we are able to find solace, peace, and harmony during times of turmoil and sorrow. We will know how to act specifically, uniquely, and purely tailored to our particular needs, desires, circumstances, weaknesses, and stewardships.

-Finrock

[Obrien]

Semper Fi George. Some of my dearest friends are retired marines. I have an uncle who retired as a full colonel. I will envision him every time we interact in the future. Fwiw, I love and respect him tremendously, even tho he's am incorrigible TBM.

I added the quip about Lt Gen in the Nauvoo Legion because I saw a picture if Joseph Smith a couple of days ago in his dress uniform, and I was trying to emulate a prophet.

Now on to serious business... Which assertion would you like me to flesh out? I am a veritable bonanza of assertion. Please list them in order of your preference and I'll commence the work of backing up my assertions. I have over 40 years of studying things out, making mistakes, repenting, succeeding and negotiating life in general, and lds life in particular. My assertions are based on my study, reason, experience and occasionally inspiration. I hope I can bring understanding between us.

Peace and love.

[gclayjr]

Obrien,

Your first post on this thread,

gclayjr wrote:
Finrock,


Why didn't you give me the signal that you were again wandering into the gospel according to FInrock by saying

... in my own words

How you square the circle between what you say

Clearly, there is an opportunity for those who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise for them to commit all sorts of sins and unless they commit the unpardonable sin, they will be saved at the last day. My point is, just because a person is speaking against one of God's prophets is not a sure fire indicator that this person is an apostate.

and

Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize.

with this from LDS.org

Making one’s calling and election sure is an addition to celestial marriage and results from undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness. Those married in the temple can never under any circumstances gain exaltation unless they keep the commandments of God and abide in the covenant of marriage which they have taken upon themselves.”

???

Regards,

George Clay

LDS.org assumes that "undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness" = following the church leaders. They are wrong. Plain and simple.

I was refuting Finrocks assertion that a person who had their calling and election made sure, could sin as much as they wanted except for the "unpardonable" sin yet cannot lose the "prize". I referenced an article from LDS.org, that completely refutes Finrock's assertion.

You "slammed" lds.org, as a source without making any reference to whether or not one can commit any sin they like and not lose the "prize" of havng their calling and election made sure without, either by making any refutation of that assertion or citing any sources for said refutation of my assertion.

Regards,

George Clay

[bjordan13]

Isn't this an ordinance? IMHO having your C&E made sure is not something you seek after.

I believe it's as literal as this verse:

Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

We can see examples of this happening with Enos (Enos 1), Alma (Mosiah 26), and others. I know there's the 2nd Anointing, but I honestly don't know how that all fits in. For me, I would think that hearing God promise you eternal life would be sufficient.

As for thinking it's wrong to seek that promise, I'll side with Alma:

Yea, methought I saw, even as our father Lehi saw, God sitting upon his throne, surrounded with numberless concourses of angels, in the attitude of singing and praising their God; yea, and my soul did long to be there.

And Lamoni's father:

O God, Aaron hath told me that there is a God; and if there is a God, and if thou art God, wilt thou make thyself known unto me, and I will give away all my sins to know thee, and that I may be raised from the dead, and be saved at the last day.

Having your calling and election made sure is the promise that you will receive these blessings. How could a person want these things, but not want a promise of it from God? I simply don't understand how a person can have that kind of contradictory thinking in their head. I don't seek office in the church, but I certainly do seek eternal life. I've made covenants with God because I want the blessings God promises through them. How can that possibly be wrong, when it's the whole entire purpose for us being born?

I'm not sure how it all fits together either. I seek to be righteous and nothing more. I'd go nuts if I was chasing eternal life, the celestial kingdom, my calling and election made sure. I'm just happy living day to day in the gospel.

[creator]

I'm not sure how it all fits together either. I seek to be righteous and nothing more. I'd go nuts if I was chasing eternal life, the celestial kingdom, my calling and election made sure. I'm just happy living day to day in the gospel.

If you do all you can to be righteous, all those other things will fall into place anyways.

[Finrock]

Finrock,


Why didn't you give me the signal that you were again wandering into the gospel according to FInrock by saying

... in my own words

How you square the circle between what you say

Clearly, there is an opportunity for those who have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise for them to commit all sorts of sins and unless they commit the unpardonable sin, they will be saved at the last day. My point is, just because a person is speaking against one of God's prophets is not a sure fire indicator that this person is an apostate.

and

Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize.

with this from LDS.org

Making one’s calling and election sure is an addition to celestial marriage and results from undeviating and perfect devotion to the cause of righteousness. Those married in the temple can never under any circumstances gain exaltation unless they keep the commandments of God and abide in the covenant of marriage which they have taken upon themselves.”

???

Regards,

George Clay

:)) You say that an article from LDS.org completely refutes MY assertion? I did reference the scripture in my original post. Secondly, the article did not completely refute what the scriptures say. Read the scriptures for yourself. I underlined and put in bold the portions that say that if a person who is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise commits any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant WHATEVER, and ALL manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter in to their exaltation.

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.

Our hearts are changed when we are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost. You are mistaken about what it means to have one's calling and election made sure. We are still saturated and surrounded by our weaknesses and we will continue to fall short. In fact, the refining and tuning that is finally required in order to make us Gods cannot be accomplished unless we have an assurance from God that we are sealed to Him and cannot lose the prize outside of our rejection of it through blaspheming against the Holy Ghost or murdering another. You don't receive your calling and election because you have stopped making mistakes and have become infallible and after you receive your calling and election it doesn't mean that your progression and refining has stopped. It is just a new beginning and the next phase of the journey. It makes a big difference in life in being able to endure all things when you know that you are sealed to the Father and have been promised exaltation; you are then ready for new challenges and new experiences which you cannot accomplish or hope to attain without the promise or the more sure word of prophecy.

-Finrock

[Mark]

Bruce R McConkie said this about having ones calling and election made sure:

"To have one’s calling and election made sure is to be sealed up unto eternal life; it is to have the unconditional guarantee of exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is to receive the assurance of godhood; it is, in effect, to have the day of judgment advanced, so that an inheritance of all the glory and honor of the Father’s kingdom is assured prior to the day when the faithful actually enter into the divine presence to sit with Christ in his throne, even as he is ‘set down’ with his ‘Father in his throne.’ (Rev. 3:21.) (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Bookcraft, 1973, 3:330–31.)

Now let me ask you a few questions Finrock. Once a person receives this election and it is made sure does that person still maintain any moral agency? What does it mean to you to blaspheme against the Holy Ghost? What do you think it means in the later part of verse 26 concerning those who are destroyed in the flesh and delivered unto the buffetings of Satan until the day of deliverance? What does that mean to you? Let's start there.

PS. 2 quotes from Joseph Smith to think about:

"The doctrine that the Presbyterians and Methodists have quarreled so much about--once in grace, always in grace, or falling away from grace, I will say a word about. They are both wrong. Truth takes a road between them both, for while the Presbyterian says: 'One in grace, you cannot fall'; the Methodist says: 'You can have grace today, fall from it tomorrow, next day have grace again; and so follow on, changing continually.' But the doctrine of the scriptures and the spirit of Elijah would show them both false, and take a road between them both; for, according to the scripture, if men have received the good word of God, and tasted of the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, it is impossible to renew them again, seeing they have crucified the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; so there is a possibility of falling away; you could not be renewed again, and the power of Elijah cannot seal against this sin, for this is a reserve made in the seals and power of the priesthood." (Teachings, pg. 338-339.

"If a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the celestial kingdom." (History of the Church, 6:81.

[Zathura]

Every time I check up on the forum it's like Déia vu. The same people arguing about the same things using the same reasoning talking past each other. It's rather mind blowing that apparently nobody has changed their stance on these topics over the past 5 years that I've followed this forum
@-)

[creator]

Every time I check up on the forum it's like Déia vu. The same people arguing about the same things using the same reasoning talking past each other. It's rather mind blowing that apparently nobody has changed their stance on these topics over the past 5 years that I've followed this forum
@-)

It makes you wonder if 50% of LDSFF users are actually just bots programmed by the forum administrator to discuss various topics and every few years the bots run out of pre-programmed algorithmic content and start the loop all over again.

:ymdevil: :-$ B-)

[Silver]

Every time I check up on the forum it's like Déia vu. The same people arguing about the same things using the same reasoning talking past each other. It's rather mind blowing that apparently nobody has changed their stance on these topics over the past 5 years that I've followed this forum
@-)

It makes you wonder if 50% of LDSFF users are actually just bots programmed by the forum administrator to discuss various topics and every few years the bots run out of pre-programmed algorithmic content and start the loop all over again.

:ymdevil: :-$ B-)

Just one eternal round, hey, kinda like your avatar.

[Mark]

Every time I check up on the forum it's like Déia vu. The same people arguing about the same things using the same reasoning talking past each other. It's rather mind blowing that apparently nobody has changed their stance on these topics over the past 5 years that I've followed this forum
@-)

It makes you wonder if 50% of LDSFF users are actually just bots programmed by the forum administrator to discuss various topics and every few years the bots run out of pre-programmed algorithmic content and start the loop all over again.

:ymdevil: :-$ B-)

Thanks a lot Sybil! :ymdevil:

[Mark]

"Oh yeah, and I would not do it either if you happen to be someone that finds fault or speaks evil with the Lord's anointed. I would make sure that you are in submission and give deference to the keys of the priesthood so you have the right spirit about you, because having that type of spirit of evil speaking is indeed an invitation for deception. And even then, I would venture a guess to say that it will not be immediate, but will be at a time and place of the Lord's choosing."

Thank you brother Ed. Finding fault with and speaking ill of the Lords anointed servants who hold the proper Priesthood keys is a violation of sacred temple covenants. It is indeed an invitation for deception.

First, this is an argument of irrelevance, because committing adultery is also an invitation for deception. Secondly, those who have been sealed up to eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise, cannot lose the prize, no matter if they mock the Lord's anointed servant or commit any other sin except that of denying the Holy Ghost or murdering someone in cold blood. Those who are sealed can do whatever they want and have no fear of losing the prize. It is not a sure indicator that a person is apostate just because they might find fault with the leaders of the Church.

You and I are not in a position to judge where a person is at and whether they are sealed to life eternal or to pertition, unless we know they have committed the unpardonable sin, and we can only know this if we know their calling and election is made sure.

-Finrock

This is from McConkies New Testament commentary. It addresses the reservation aspect to having ones calling and election made sure. My point here Finrock is that moral agency is paramount. There are consequences to sin and rebellion. We may not fully understand the extent of those consequences but they are still in place and there will be a price to be paid.

[11] What if those whose calling and election has been made sure thereafter commit grievous sins? Suppose they backslide and walk in the ways of wickedness? Or fight the truth and rebel against God--what then?

That all men commit sin, before and after baptism, and for that matter, before and after their calling and election is made sure, is self-evident. There has been only one Sinless One--the Lord Jesus who was God's own Son.

Thus in the revelation announcing the setting up of the restored church in this day, the Lord says: "There is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God; Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation; Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also." (D&C 20:32-34.)

The prophets and apostles from Adam and Enoch down, and all men, whether cleansed and sanctified from sin or not, are yet subject to and do in fact commit sin. This is the case even after men have seen the visions of eternity and been sealed by that Holy Spirit of Promise which makes their calling and election sure. Since these chosen ones have the sure promise of eternal life, and since "no unclean thing can enter into" the Father's "kingdom" (3 Ne 27:19), "or dwell in his presence" (Moses 6:57), what of sins committed after being sealed up into eternal life?

Obviously the laws of repentance still apply, and the more enlightened a person is, the more he seeks the gift of repentance, and the harder he strives to free himself from sin as often as he falls short of the divine will and becomes subject in any degree to the Master of Sin who is Lucifer. It follows that the sins of the godfearing and the righteous are continually remitted because they repent and seek the Lord anew every day and every hour.

And as a matter of fact, the added blessing of having one's calling and election made sure is itself an encouragement to avoid sin and a hedge against its further commission. By that long course of obedience and trial which enabled them to gain so great a blessing the sanctified saints have charted a course and developed a pattern of living which avoids sin and encourages righteousness. Thus the Lord said: "I give unto you Hyrum Smith to be a patriarch unto you, to hold the sealing blessings of my church, even the Holy Spirit of promise, whereby ye are sealed up unto the day of redemption, that ye may not fall notwithstanding the hour of temptation that may come upon you." (D&C 124:124.)

But suppose such persons become disaffected and the spirit of repentance leaves them--which is a seldom and almost unheard of eventuality--still, what then? The answer is--and the revelations and teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith so recite!--they must then pay the penalty of their own sins, for the blood of Christ will not cleanse them. Or if they commit murder or adultery, they lose their promised inheritance because these sins are exempt from the sealing promises. Or if they commit the unpardonable sin, they become sons of perdition.

As we have already seen, making one's calling and election sure comes after and grows out of celestial marriage. Eternal life does not and cannot exist for a man or a woman alone, because in its very nature it consists of the continuation of the family unit in eternity. Thus the revelation on marriage speaks both of celestial marriage (in which the conditional promises of eternal life are given) and of making one's calling and election sure (in which the unconditional promise of eternal life are given) in one and the same sentence--which sentence also says that those who commit sins (except "murder whereby to shed innocent blood") after being sealed up unto eternal life shall still gain exaltation. This is the language: "Then"--that is, after their calling and election has been made sure--"shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods," because they have eternal life. (D&C 132:19-20.)

Then the revelation speaks of that obedience out of which eternal life grows, and still speaking both of celestial marriage and of making one's calling and election sure says: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment"--that is, if they are both married and have their calling and election made sure--"and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God." (D&C 132:26.)

This matter of being destroyed in the flesh and delivered over to the buffetings of Satan until the day of redemption is the doctrine of blood atonement, whereunder those here involved are not cleansed by the blood of Christ, but must pay the penalty for their own sins. This principle can only operate in a day, as that of Moses, when there is no separation of Church and state and when the Church has power to take life. Of conditions in our day, and as to how this law applies to us, President Joseph Fielding Smith says: "We cannot destroy men in the flesh, because we do not control the lives of men and do not have power to pass sentences upon them which involve capital punishment. In the days when there was a theocracy on the earth, then this decree was enforced. What the Lord will do in lieu of this, because we cannot destroy in the flesh, I am unable to say, but it will have to be made up in some other way." (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:97.)

As to the shedding of innocent blood, within the meaning of this revelation, the Lord says: "The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord." (D&C 132:27.) That is, the innocent blood is that of Christ; and those who commit blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which is the unpardonable sin (Matt 12:31-32), thereby "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:6.) They are, in other words, people who would have crucified Christ, having the while a perfect knowledge that he was the Son of God.

Following the pattern set by the Lord of speaking both of celestial marriage and of being sealed up unto eternal life in the same context, Joseph Smith said: "Putting my hand on the knee of William Clayton, I said: Your life is hid with Christ in God, and so are many others. Nothing but the unpardonable sin can prevent you from inheriting eternal life for you are sealed up by the power of the priesthood unto eternal life, having taken the step necessary for that purpose. Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, while in this probation, by the power and authority of the Holy Priesthood, they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory. The unpardonable sin is to shed innocent blood, or be accessory thereto. All other sins will be visited with judgment in the flesh, and the spirit being delivered to the buffetings of Satan until the day of the Lord Jesus." (History of the Church, 5:391-392.)

Perhaps this matter of being "visited with judgment in the flesh"--whatever it may be in an individual case--is the Lord's way of handling things when it is not possible for a person to be "destroyed in the flesh." (D&C 132:26.) In this connection, also--and having in mind that the sealing power was given by Elijah to Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration (Teachings, 158), and again to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple (D&C 110:13-16)--we should note these words of the Prophet: "This spirit of Elijah was manifest in the days of the Apostles, in delivering certain ones to the buffetings of Satan, that they might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. They were sealed by the spirit of Elijah unto the damnation of hell until the day of the Lord, or revelation of Jesus Christ." (Teachings, 338.)

As to the fact that the sealing power cannot seal a man up so as to keep him from being a son of perdition, if that is the course he chooses to follow, the Prophet says: "The doctrine that the Presbyterians and Methodists have quarreled so much about--once in grace, always in grace, or falling away from grace, I will say a word about. They are both wrong. Truth takes a road between them both, for while the Presbyterian says: 'One in grace, you cannot fall'; the Methodist says: 'You can have grace today, fall from it tomorrow, next day have grace again; and so follow on, changing continually.' But the doctrine of the scriptures and the spirit of Elijah would show them both false, and take a road between them both; for, according to the scripture, if men have received the good word of God, and tasted of the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, it is impossible to renew them again, seeing they have crucified the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; so there is a possibility of falling away; you could not be renewed again, and the power of Elijah cannot seal against this sin, for this is a reserve made in the seals and power of the priesthood." (Teachings, pg. 338-339.) Thus, even though a man's calling and election has been made sure, if he then commits blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, be becomes a son of perdition, because when he was sealed up unto eternal life it was with a reservation. The sealing was not to apply in the case of the unpardonable sin.

As to the fact that the sealing power cannot seal a man up unto eternal life if he thereafter commits murder and thereby sheds innocent blood (not in this case the blood of Christ, but the blood of any person slain unlawfully and with malice) the Prophet says: "A murderer, for instance, one that sheds innocent blood, cannot have forgiveness. David sought repentance at the hand of God carefully with tears, for the murder of Uriah; but he could only get it through hell; he got a promise that his soul should not be left in hell.

"Although David was a king, he never did obtain the spirit and power of Elijah and the fullness of the priesthood; and the priesthood that he received, and the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage." (Teachings, 339.) Thus, even though a man's calling and election has been made sure, if he then commits murder, all of the promises are of no effect, and he goes to a telestial kingdom (Rev 21:8; D&C 76:103), because when he was sealed up unto eternal life, it was with a reservation. The sealing was not to apply in the case of murder.

And as to the fact that the sealing power cannot seal a man up unto eternal life if he thereafter commits adultery, the Prophet says: "If a man commit adultery, he cannot receive the celestial kingdom of God. Even if he is saved in any kingdom, it cannot be the celestial kingdom." (History of the Church, 6:81.) Thus, even though a man's calling and election has been sure, if he then commits adultery, all of the promises are of no effect, and he goes to a telestial kingdom, because when he was sealed up unto eternal life, it was with a reservation. The sealing was not to apply in the case of subsequent adultery. In other cases, through repentance, there is forgiveness for this sin which is second only to murder in the category of personal sins. (1 Cor 6:9-11; 3 Ne 30; D&C 42:24-26.)

[diligently seeking]

Moses invited the children of Israel to climb the mountain and see God. They declined, and chose to remain in the foothills.
They felt safer there.

From someone more eloquent ----


Said the Prophet Joseph Smith after one of the most revelatory meetings in his life, “There was nothing made known to these men [the Twelve] but what will be made known to all the Saints of the last days, so soon as they are prepared to receive” (Teachings, p. 237). This is the religion of every man. Not “Take my word for my experience,” but “Duplicate it in your own life.” How far do I go with this? All the way.

Let me then come to a close. I have hiked, with my wife and at night, all the way from the base of what is known as Mt. Sinai to the top. (Incidentally, with a very sore toe. Climbing hurts, and the more you climb, sometimes the more it hurts.) We went up to where the air is thinner and the veil thinner. There isn’t time to describe the feeling, but we were able to recollect that Moses, there, had face-to-face communion with God. He came back down and said to the children of Israel, in the name of the God whose name he knew, “Now, you are invited to go back up with me.”

And they said, “Thank you. No. That’s for prophets. That’s for people who are a bit fanatical. We will stay here and you go up, Moses.”

In his absence they built an idol. The power of religious impulses goes in many directions. They built an idol—a thing—and were denied the privileges of Moses (D&C 84:23–25). That is what our generation is now doing again. We are staying down below and then claiming superiority for our judgment in doing so.

Truman Madsen, BYU Speeches, On How We Know

Truman Madsen was my last Stake president as a single fella. I will always remember him from a wonderful experience I had which was inspired by him and his counselor etc. The gift of the experience was a result of T.M's. faith and acceptance by Christ. He knew where he was coming from in the quote shared by Lizzy... My experience:

1999 / 2000ish time frame my BYU stake met for conference. I sat directly back from pulpit 5 rows up in the balcony. My memory does not recall a thing any one spoke on that day other than President Madsen at some point in his talk reffering to his 1st counsler as a scholar amongst scholars in constitutional law. I also remember thinking when his first counsler spoke that the man was very meek and humble... The end of conference came. The closing song we sang was one I had never sung before or heard sung. It was a song based of John 3: 16. Not too far into the song I could not help but observe that President Madsen and his first counsler were having a spiritual experience. their heads were leaning back against their nice comfortable chairs. Their eyes were closed. they were not singing. Their heads were not bowed. again, they were leaning against their chair as if they were taking in something special. The first counsler was holding President M's hand. As I observed these details-- with this lovely song about Christ being sung, I said to myself "they are having a spiritual experience!" No sooner did I finish this thought than I myself had a spiritual experience that was more profound than any other I had ever received to that point in my life. My heart was on fire! The intensity of this sensation had me crouch over and reach for that burning area. It did not hurt but truly was an intensity of heat. Immediately my inner man / person was filled with (no egageration) rapturous joy! I wept!. I think maybe in my immediate general area I was the only one who experienced this-- from my brief observation.

I remember feeling a very small twinge of emotion / embarrassment of "am I drawing attention to myself." That thought quickly vanished with the peace love and joy I was enveloped in. For weeks after this experience I was clicking my spritual heels together... It is my witness if we seek and promote/testify of that which the prophet Joseph and others including Truman Madsen encourage to seek-- eventualy Christ our beloved Savior will enter in. We are ment to be made anew through him in this life and be received by him / second comforter-- most assuredly in this life-- is my testimony with love and confidenice to all. JB

"...Be believing."