Single adults and law of chastity

[zionminded]

http://www.finlayson-fife.com/drjennife ... -integrity" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a lengthy but amazingly good article for single adults and sexuality-law of chastity.

[DesertWonderer]

Bottom line (according to the author of this article): If it feels good, do it.

Nice.

[zionminded]

Bottom line (according to the author of this article): If it feels good, do it.

Nice.

I don't know that summary is accurate, but we already do this with other principles: tithing, sabbath day observance, word of wisdom. All these have a nuanced approach, and some firm boundaries. Is the law of chastity any different with adults vs teens?

[cyclOps]

Bottom line (according to the author of this article): If it feels good, do it.

Nice.

I don't know that summary is accurate, but we already do this with other principles: tithing, sabbath day observance, word of wisdom. All these have a nuanced approach, and some firm boundaries. Is the law of chastity any different with adults vs teens?

Are the commandments of tithing or sabbath observance different with adults vs teens?

[Juliet]

There is soo much pain here. The pain of being single. The pain of being divorced and single. The pain of being married to someone who doesn't give intimacy.

At the end of the day, every one is in control of their life, and finding joy. Don't wait for a man in an office to tell you what you can and can't do. Do what you need to do, you have stewardship over yourself! It is your job to find happiness in life.

I would be happy reporting to God that I broke His commandments and found pace and happiness, because that is the point to the commandments. I think God would rather us break His commandments and report to Him whether it helped or not, then to spend your whole life complaining that you can't do what you think is right because of what a pamphlet says.

If you really disagree with it, go learn by experience and report to the rest of us how it worked. The spirit of the law has always and will always be more important then the letter of the law. Find the spirit of it and do what you need.

I was continually abused as a kid and I had to figure out the difference between love and hate in a sexual context. I learned a lot. So stop complaining and go learn.

By the way, people are too picky about who they marry. Shoot high, but not so high you miss the mark.

[Juliet]

There is soo much pain here. The pain of being single. The pain of being divorced and single. The pain of being married to someone who doesn't give intimacy.

At the end of the day, every one is in control of their life, and finding joy. Don't wait for a man in an office to tell you what you can and can't do. Do what you need to do, you have stewardship over yourself! It is your job to find happiness in life.

I would be happy reporting to God that I broke His commandments and found pace and happiness, because that is the point to the commandments. I think God would rather us break His commandments and report to Him whether it helped or not, then to spend your whole life complaining that you can't do what you think is right because of what a pamphlet says.

If you really disagree with it, go learn by experience and report to the rest of us how it worked. The spirit of the law has always and will always be more important then the letter of the law. Find the spirit of it and do what you need.

I was continually abused as a kid and I had to figure out the difference between love and hate in a sexual context. I learned a lot. I am extremely happy in my marriage. So stop complaining and go learn.

By the way, people are too picky about who they marry. Shoot high, but not so high you miss the mark.

[Sarah]

Self-acceptance means being honest with yourself and God about who you are. It means honoring and serving God and others through your sexuality in whatever context you exist, rather than trying to repress it or deny its presence. For some singles this may mean sacrificing the potential sacrament of sexual union. Many people have found ways to sublimate and translate their sexuality into other forms of service and devotion to goodness in the world.

Again, there is power in self-acceptance around sexual thoughts and desires, whether facilitating our capacity for intimacy with another or channeling those passions into other forms of self-expression.

These verses come to mind -

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.


Her message reminds me of what we hear coming from the LGBT community. Why should we repress something that is so natural?

Because of birth control, the notion that sexual feelings are present so that man and woman will mate and have babies is lost in the message that sex is an expression of love that makes you happy. Yes, it is, and it is only intended for men and woman who want to become fathers and mothers together in an eternal marriage relationship.

She gives this extreme example of a young man who will not even date because dating "arouses sexual feelings." Is it possible for this man to be around a woman without feeling sexual? Just don't touch her at all. But we have a culture of kissing and pornographic material which makes men into beasts. She later implies that if only this young man was free to explore his sexuality, he would he be more comfortable around women.

This is her problem - she is a marriage counselor counseling all these unhappy lds couples, where it sounds like there are sex problems - presumably where at least one person does not like having sex. She has come to the correct conclusion that the intent, desire, and spirit of the act is more important than the action itself. And so she then concludes that the law part the of the equation - the marriage - doesn't really matter, as long as you have good intent and desires, there is love for self and another involved and essentially you are "following the spirit."

And this is her other problem.

She says,

Lots of unloving, indecent sexual engagement happens in marriage One can take the entitled position that you owe me sex because you’re my spouse, you now belong to me. Or the entitled position that I don’t have to have sex because sex makes me uncomfortable and so even though my marriage commitment includes a sexual relationship with you, it is not as important as my comfort. Both are very common positions in marriage, and both are ways of taking advantage of another in the sexual realm.

How can you have it both ways? Is it wrong to feel entitled to control your own body? No. But it is wrong to feel you can control another. There must be freedom and agency, even within marriage. We are always free to give, but we cannot force others to give to us. If one partner is expecting his or her other half to feel uncomfortable during the sex act, then what is the point - it is an act entered into selfishly at the expense of the other.

But here is where the hypocrisy manifests itself. She is saying that it is wrong to feel entitled within marriage, but that it is right to feel entitled to sexual fulfillment without. She is tapping into a feeling of discontent and entitlement within her listeners, that they deserve to have the gift of sexual fulfillment, and don't deserve to feel any kind of shame or guilt over indulging themselves.

What should a person feeling entitled to sex do? Give the other freedom to choose. That doesn't mean the first is obligated to give anything except those things which have been mutually agreed upon. And here is where the problem in modern day marriages lies. The thinking should be, I agree to work together with you to bring forth a family. I will provide food and shelter so that you can work to bring forth children, rather than, I will feed you and your children if you have sex with me. Why should a woman want to marry a man that is more focused on his sexual needs than the higher purpose of raising a family? Of course she understands and has compassion on his desires, but the more he acts entitled, the more she gets turned off.

My husband has always been very tight with money, but I've learned that the more freedom I give him to control what he has earned, the more he has slowly come to give to me, and give more generously. If I would have felt resentful and punished him by simply demanding, expecting, or taking what I feel I deserved, he would have withheld even more. It goes both ways. Freedom and patience are the answer to love problems.

[Matchmaker]

It's better to stay chaste when you are dating and endure the temptation and difficulty of not having your intimacy needs fulfilled than to start messing around before marriage and have the guilt of what you are doing propel you into marrying some guy or girl you liked, loved, or were just attracted to, but who would not make a compatible marriage partner and you would end up getting divorced from a few years down the road.

Don't rush into sexual intimacy with someone or you will find the Bishop (or you or your partner) rushing you into an ill-fated marriage soon after. I speak from experience.

[zionminded]

Bottom line (according to the author of this article): If it feels good, do it.

Nice.

I don't know that summary is accurate, but we already do this with other principles: tithing, sabbath day observance, word of wisdom. All these have a nuanced approach, and some firm boundaries. Is the law of chastity any different with adults vs teens?

Are the commandments of tithing or sabbath observance different with adults vs teens?

No, they are different from member to member, and completely okay for temple worthiness.

[cyclOps]

Bottom line (according to the author of this article): If it feels good, do it.

Nice.

I don't know that summary is accurate, but we already do this with other principles: tithing, sabbath day observance, word of wisdom. All these have a nuanced approach, and some firm boundaries. Is the law of chastity any different with adults vs teens?

Are the commandments of tithing or sabbath observance different with adults vs teens?

No, they are different from member to member, and completely okay for temple worthiness.

The law of chastity is clear.

[Rose Garden]

I don't know that summary is accurate, but we already do this with other principles: tithing, sabbath day observance, word of wisdom. All these have a nuanced approach, and some firm boundaries. Is the law of chastity any different with adults vs teens?

Are the commandments of tithing or sabbath observance different with adults vs teens?

No, they are different from member to member, and completely okay for temple worthiness.

The law of chastity is clear.

I don't believe it is. Is it no sexual intercourse outside of marriage or no sexual relations outside of marriage? If it's no sexual intercourse outside of marriage does that mean pretty much everything else is acceptable? Oral sex, petting, making out, just so long as you don't actually put a penis and vagina together? If it's sexual relations, what constitutes "relations?" Where do you draw the line? Is kissing okay? How about massages? At what point do you break the law? These are questions I was constantly exposed to growing up and for which the answers were very unclear. No one wanted to spell things out.

[h_p]

The law of chastity is clear.

Apparently not to that 30-year old client of hers. Or maybe he's the only one who gets it right, since he was 100% obedient to the church's standards.

[Sarah]

Are the commandments of tithing or sabbath observance different with adults vs teens?

No, they are different from member to member, and completely okay for temple worthiness.

The law of chastity is clear.

I don't believe it is. Is it no sexual intercourse outside of marriage or no sexual relations outside of marriage? If it's no sexual intercourse outside of marriage does that mean pretty much everything else is acceptable? Oral sex, petting, making out, just so long as you don't actually put a penis and vagina together? If it's sexual relations, what constitutes "relations?" Where do you draw the line? Is kissing okay? How about massages? At what point do you break the law? These are questions I was constantly exposed to growing up and for which the answers were very unclear. No one wanted to spell things out.

It's no sexual relations outside of marriage. When I was growing up the counsel was no necking or petting. I wish I was told what they are telling the youth now. No behaviors that arouse you sexually. Makes sense - why do you need to prep your body for sex when it is not the right time to make a baby. If I had to do it over again I would have my first kiss be over the alter - that is what Pres. Faust did. Reminds me of how the standard is and was no rated R movies, but now they make it clear that you really should not watch anything that offends the spirit. But I guess we need to be commanded in all things so we know what we can get away with. :ymsmug:

[Sirocco]

If I had to do it again there's lots I would have done differently, in matters of sex lol.

[Matchmaker]

When I was a middle single adult, I found that even watching a romantic PG13 rated movie, dancing, holding hands, and kissing, common things most people do on dates, was enough to impare my judgement.

However, I chose to date, as dangerous as it was at times to my standing in the Church, because I wanted to get married again, and, as it seemed at the time, no one wanted to marry me without dating me first.

[Spaced_Out]

Wickedness never was happiness. No happiness can be found in breaking the commandments. The command to be chaste is clear and well defined by the authorities of the church. Those that get involved in sexual relations outside of marriage suffer great spiritual damage. They mostly don't acknowledge it but it is easy to observe.
"A wicked and adulterous nations seek signs." If one looks at how people behave or how they answer questions it is quiet easy to determine which commandments they are not living. The immediate loss of the HG as a result of sexual misconduct is very easy to observe in others, it is a very long and hard process to repent of those things and get back one spirituality. Deny all you like but it is the truth - i have had to council many people who have not lived the law of chastity it is pain pain and pain to recover.

[Matchmaker]

I agree with Spaced Out that if one breaks the Law of Chastity and drives away the Holy Spirit, he or she will pay, pay, and pay for it, in one way or another, for a long time to come. If I ever find myself single again, I don't think I will risk dating, unless it is a group date or a visit to Church or the temple - no more close dancing or date movies for me. I'd rather stay single than risk my membership again.

Contact or skin hunger is real though and creates its own set of problems. I remember once when I was a single middle adult, with no children of my own, and no living parents, close friends, or siblings in the area, I went years without touching another human being - not even hugs or handshakes. It was its own kind of hell, and one most married men and women can't relate to.

[h_p]

The command to be chaste is clear and well defined by the authorities of the church. Those that get involved in sexual relations outside of marriage suffer great spiritual damage.

How do you define "sexual relations?" And most importantly, how did you come to that definition?

[Sarah]

The command to be chaste is clear and well defined by the authorities of the church. Those that get involved in sexual relations outside of marriage suffer great spiritual damage.

How do you define "sexual relations?" And most importantly, how did you come to that definition?

Would the behavior of physical intimacy you are participating in be something you would do with your child? If not, then it is sexual in nature. Anything that arouses you sexually is a sexual relation. So any kissing other than a peck in my book is sexual relations.

[davedan]

A major message of the LDS Temple and the Melchizedek priesthood is that an immoral society that breaks the Law of Chastity will increasingly degrade families and generate greater poverty.

To act contrary to the Law of Chastity is to act contrary to everything a temple-going LDS member is supposed to represent.

[Matchmaker]

Everyone agrees that sexual relations outside of marriage is wrong. No one is contesting that. It seems the challenge comes in defining exactly what the term sexual relations means. To many, sitting side by side, holding hands while walking, and slow dancing are enough to start the fires burning. Compassion is needed here, not further condemnation. Some people weren't raised in the
Church and may need the extra help in understanding what is needed from them to conform.

[gkearney]

Everyone agrees that sexual relations outside of the Church is wrong. No one is contesting that. It seems the challenge comes in defining exactly what the term sexual relations means. To many, sitting side by side, holding hands while walking, and slow dancing are enough to start the fires burning. Compassion is needed here, not further condemnation. Some people weren't raised in the
Church and may need the extra help in understanding what is needed from them to conform.

Surely you meant to write "Everyone agrees that sexual relations outside of the marriage is wrong." and not "Everyone agrees that sexual relations outside of the Church is wrong."

[Older/wiser?]

Then there is this D&C 42:23 And he that looked upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out. Or there is this Matt. 5;28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looked on a woman to lust after hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Seems like we don't do anything without first thinking about it , many of us choose do go as close to the line as we can and still be technically not guilt. Davids down fall shows the consequences of uncontrolled self-will , and disobedience to counsel, I'm sure when he looked over the balcony he never thought he would act on what he saw. Then there is Joseph in Egypt who responded totally opposite, he fled . To become as the Savior , I believe we should start by guarding our thoughts which will protect our actions. You can't play with fire and just be a little bit immoral, eventually you choose one or the other. JMHO

[JohnnyL]

The law of chastity is clear.

I don't believe it is. Is it no sexual intercourse outside of marriage or no sexual relations outside of marriage? If it's no sexual intercourse outside of marriage does that mean pretty much everything else is acceptable? Oral sex, petting, making out, just so long as you don't actually put a penis and vagina together? If it's sexual relations, what constitutes "relations?" Where do you draw the line? Is kissing okay? How about massages? At what point do you break the law? These are questions I was constantly exposed to growing up and for which the answers were very unclear. No one wanted to spell things out.

The law of chastity is clear. BUT... Certain things mean more than what they "say", shall we say?
Note that certain covenants do not prohibit polygamy RIGHT NOW. However, the church does; do it, and get excommunicated for breaking the law of chastity.
Anyway, if it's not your spouse and it's sexually stimulating, or it "should" be, it's against the law of happiness/ chastity.
Breaking the law, or breaking the spirit of the law? Maybe I won't get a ticket for speeding because I haven't broken that law, but I'll get one for reckless driving?

[Ezra]

God the creator of the constitution set up common law courts and common law marriage. Much much different then what we have perverted it to be today.

Common law marriage requires no clergy. No signed documents no permission from the government. Just simply a man and woman agreeing to marriage in back yard or where ever in front of a witness. Or living together long enough. I believe the us gov has put a actual number of years on it now to where it's official and can be claimed on taxes.
But still it's common law marriage. Which God put his stamp of approval on in d&c 101 where he claimed authorship of it.