A Question About Jesus Christ and His Priesthood

[skmo]

A question came up in Priesthood today, no one had a clear answer, so I thought I'd ask here. We know Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, but was He ordained to the Priesthood? If so, who did it? Was it done on the Mount of Transfiguration? If that's the case, does that mean He went through most of His life and ministry without the Priesthood?

I know the Son of God has different situations than all others, but since He was baptized to fulfill the law, did He have to be ordained as well?

[cyclOps]

The way I see it... it is His priesthood. Should he have ordained himself? I think He already had it by being who he was, a begotten Son of our Father.

[Older/wiser?]

Jesus came to fulfil the law in everyway, thus He was baptized, received the sign of the dove ( as shown in the facsimile #2 from the book of Abraham #7) He was taken to the temple by his parents when He was 12 to fulfil the law of moses, He claimed His authority and priesthood thru the proper channels. His priesthood leader would have been His father Joseph. This is part of the reason the Davidic lineage was so important and recorded in His life. So I would say He followed proper channels.

[letsjet]

I heard a General Authority say that Jesus Christ doesn't hold the priesthood, He is the Priesthood!The original name of the priesthood was "The Holy Order after the Son of God." The name was changed to the Melchizedek Priesthood to avoid the frequent mention of his name.

As I understand it, we held the priesthood in the Pre-mortal life, but had to be ordained once again after receiving a physical body. There are ordinances in this life that have to be performed with a physical body. For those people who do not received those ordinances in this life, those ordinances are performed by proxy by someone with a physical body.

I suspect that Christ would need to be ordained after receiving a physical body, but this ordination couldn't have been performed by a typical holder of the priesthood. I think only God the Father would be in a position to do that.

It is an interesting question! I can only speculate on an answer.

[janderich]

Sometimes we get stuck on this idea of authority. Why? Because we who have little to no power so must content ourselves with authority. Someone says, "show me evidence of the priesthood you hold" and we show them a chart of our ordination back to Joseph Smith. But what we can't show them is evidence of the power of the Lord that is in us.

Jesus was just the opposite. He came exercising power, performing miracles regularly. Notwithstanding his obvious power, like the chief priests we ask, "By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thou these this authority?" (Matt 21:23). Just like the leaders of the Jews we don't understand the answer, because we have looked beyond the mark.

As Paul tells us, there is a line of priesthood that comes without ordination, without father or mother without descent, having neither begging of days, nor end of life. That is the priesthood the Son has.

It is even more obvious when another priest arises [Jesus], resembling Melchizedek, one who has become a priest, not through a legal requirement concerning physical descent, but through the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of him, “You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek.” There is, on the one hand, the abrogation of an earlier commandment because it was weak and ineffectual (for the law made nothing perfect); there is, on the other hand, the introduction of a better hope, through which we approach God. (Heb 7:15-19 NRSV)

We are stuck on law, we insist Christ must be ordained (as if priesthood came from men!). It comes from God always and forever. We must not get the form confused with the power. I believe the Nephites called people differently than we do today. Alma tells us:
1. They were prepared from the foundation of the world, because of their faith and good works in the pre-mortal life.
2. Here on earth they exercised exceedingly great faith and accepted the Spirit of God.
3. Thus, because of their faith and the evidence of the power God had given them, they were ordained to the High Priesthood that all might know the way.
See, they were not ordained, then exercised faith, then given power. No, they exercised power (which was given them before this life) through faith. Having done so, they were ordained to the Holy Priesthood following the order of the Son.

The way to gain priesthood is by faith, not ordination! This is exactly what Moroni tells us, "Behold it was by faith that they of old were called after the hold order of God" (Ether 12:10). Or as Bruce R. McConkie once said, "Faith is power, and power is priesthood". Therefore gain faith and you will have priesthood, just as did the Son. Mark it down and never forget it.

[gclayjr]

skmo,

I believe that John The Baptist was a Levite. who are the natural bearers of what we call the Aaronic priesthood, which was still on the earth at that time.

You only need the Aaronic, or Levitical priesthood to baptize.

The Aaronic Priesthood continued “with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel” from Aaron until John the Baptist, who was a priest in the Aaronic order (D&C 84:26–27), and by this authority he prepared the way for and baptized Jesus. Nineteen centuries later this same John was sent from heaven as a resurrected being to confer the Aaronic Priesthood upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. This was done on May 15, 1829, near Harmony, Pennsylvania. At that time John outlined some of the duties, privileges, and limitations of the priesthood, specifying that the Aaronic Priesthood holds the keys of the ministry of angels and can perform baptisms by water but has not the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Aaronic Priesthood functions under the direction of the Melchizedek Priesthood (D&C 13; JS—H 1:68–72

Regards,

George Clay

[davedan]

Yes, I agree, Jesus Christ is the priesthood. He was annointed and ordained in the divine pre-mortal council.

The reason why Christ went to John for baptism was to recognize and honor His Father's priesthood authority that He and the Father had established.

When it comes to the Last Days, Christ will continue to recognize and honor the priesthood authority that He had established (in spite of the imperfectness of the people holding it).

[butterfly]

Sometimes we get stuck on this idea of authority. Why? Because we who have little to no power so must content ourselves with authority. Someone says, "show me evidence of the priesthood you hold" and we show them a chart of our ordination back to Joseph Smith. But what we can't show them is evidence of the power of the Lord that is in us.

Jesus was just the opposite. He came exercising power, performing miracles regularly. Notwithstanding his obvious power, like the chief priests we ask, "By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thou these this authority?" (Matt 21:23). Just like the leaders of the Jews we don't understand the answer, because we have looked beyond the mark.

As Paul tells us, there is a line of priesthood that comes without ordination, without father or mother without descent, having neither begging of days, nor end of life. That is the priesthood the Son has.

It is even more obvious when another priest arises [Jesus], resembling Melchizedek, one who has become a priest, not through a legal requirement concerning physical descent, but through the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of him, “You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek.” There is, on the one hand, the abrogation of an earlier commandment because it was weak and ineffectual (for the law made nothing perfect); there is, on the other hand, the introduction of a better hope, through which we approach God. (Heb 7:15-19 NRSV)

We are stuck on law, we insist Christ must be ordained (as if priesthood came from men!). It comes from God always and forever. We must not get the form confused with the power. I believe the Nephites called people differently than we do today. Alma tells us:
1. They were prepared from the foundation of the world, because of their faith and good works in the pre-mortal life.
2. Here on earth they exercised exceedingly great faith and accepted the Spirit of God.
3. Thus, because of their faith and the evidence of the power God had given them, they were ordained to the High Priesthood that all might know the way.
See, they were not ordained, then exercised faith, then given power. No, they exercised power (which was given them before this life) through faith. Having done so, they were ordained to the Holy Priesthood following the order of the Son.

The way to gain priesthood is by faith, not ordination! This is exactly what Moroni tells us, "Behold it was by faith that they of old were called after the hold order of God" (Ether 12:10). Or as Bruce R. McConkie once said, "Faith is power, and power is priesthood". Therefore gain faith and you will have priesthood, just as did the Son. Mark it down and never forget it.

The concept in this post is so important to understand that I am posting it a second time just in case someone didn't see it.

[inho]

We are stuck on law, we insist Christ must be ordained

The concept in this post is so important to understand that I am posting it a second time just in case someone didn't see it.

I guess I need to read it a few more times, since I'm not getting the point. Why are we stuck on law if we assume that Jesus needed priesthood ordination by laying on of hands, but we are not stuck on law when we believe that Jesus, being sinless, needed to be baptized?

[butterfly]

We are stuck on law, we insist Christ must be ordained

The concept in this post is so important to understand that I am posting it a second time just in case someone didn't see it.

I guess I need to read it a few more times, since I'm not getting the point. Why are we stuck on law if we assume that Jesus needed priesthood ordination by laying on of hands, but we are not stuck on law when we believe that Jesus, being sinless, needed to be baptized?

Jesus was baptized by water because He was showing those under the curse of the law of Moses how to fulfill the law. Likewise, all those under the same curse of the law of Moses should be baptized by water as Jesus was.

Baptism moves a person from the telestial world to the terrestrial world. This was one of Jesus' jobs, to teach us how to progress to this level. Then, once we get the spirit as a result of baptism, we follow the spirit to God. As one follows the spirit, they then receive priesthood power.

Jesus didn't have to be ordained by the laying on of hands because real priesthood power comes as a result of following the spirit. Jesus had already showed people that first they must be baptized and then the law would be fulfilled; as a result they could have the spirit and subsequently priesthood power.

In short, once you know how to follow the spirit, the law of moses is fulfilled.

[inho]

Jesus didn't have to be ordained by the laying on of hands because real priesthood power comes as a result of following the spirit.

I guess I'm bit slow, since I am not sure if I still understand it (or maybe I'm just tired, it's late here).
When I read the above, I'm just thinking that the remission of the sins doesn't come as a result of the outer ordinance of baptism either. Yet Jesus showed us example in it. Is it unreasonable to assume that he showed example in other outer ordinances?

[marc]

The priesthood after the order of the Son of God is given by the calling of His own voice. This is priestHOOD, not administrative authority to pass the sacrament or to preside over people like deacons and church presidents. It is the association with God and Gods--the fullness of the gospel and the fullness of the Son, which power is also dominion over all things, which includes turning rivers from their courses and setting at defiance the armies of nations. It causes the lame to walk and raises the dead. This priestHOOD does not generally exist in the church. We men say we possess the Melchizedek Priesthood, but as Joseph Smith declared, we only possess a portion. Otherwise, we would be Zion and dwelling in the presence of God.

[inho]

I guess the argument is that there is no record of Jesus being ordained by laying on of hands, because it does not make sense that he had been ordained to the office of teacher or seventy or any other office. Instead he had the whole priesthood. He was priest and king. And he wasn't just anointed to become one, as we are in the temple. In him it was actualized and there were no mortal man who could have bestowed that power to him.

[butterfly]

Jesus didn't have to be ordained by the laying on of hands because real priesthood power comes as a result of following the spirit.

I guess I'm bit slow, since I am not sure if I still understand it (or maybe I'm just tired, it's late here).
When I read the above, I'm just thinking that the remission of the sins doesn't come as a result of the outer ordinance of baptism either. Yet Jesus showed us example in it. Is it unreasonable to assume that he showed example in other outer ordinances?

I agree with you - remission of sins doesn't come as a result of baptism by water. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that Jesus was ordained to the priesthood by men, just to show an example, we may just not have it recorded in the scriptures.

However, I don't think priesthood ordination was one of those outside rituals that Jesus had to participate in to set an example for us. He had to show us the ritual of baptism. Since the symbol of baptism of water precedes the symbol of receiving the Holy Ghost, then when Jesus was baptized by water and it was witnessed that He received the Holy Ghost, that would've been the last of the physical rituals that He needed to show in order to bring people through the whole law of Moses.

Jesus had to do the rituals that culminate in receiving the Holy Ghost. Priesthood ordination by men is not a ritual required to get to the Holy Ghost ritual.

[davedan]

Occasionally we will have a patient in the hospital who is on a breathing machine who is on four different pressers to keep their heart beating and they are clinically brain dead. However, when it comes to conveying this reality to the family, some don't accept the reality and say instead, "If we just believe strong enough, God will heal them".

I think this is a misunderstanding of faith. Faith is not the strength of our own will or strength of belief in God giving us what we want or to change Gods mind. Faith is aligning our will with God.

And what does God want? God wants to establish a perfect people and society built upon a foundation of temples and His priesthood authority where He can send his children to family who will raise them up "without sin unto salvation".

When your purposes are aligned with God in this manner, like the Brother of Jared, you can move mountains.

[Amonhi]

Sometimes we get stuck on this idea of authority. Why? Because we who have little to no power so must content ourselves with authority. Someone says, "show me evidence of the priesthood you hold" and we show them a chart of our ordination back to Joseph Smith. But what we can't show them is evidence of the power of the Lord that is in us.

Jesus was just the opposite. He came exercising power, performing miracles regularly. Notwithstanding his obvious power, like the chief priests we ask, "By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thou these this authority?" (Matt 21:23). Just like the leaders of the Jews we don't understand the answer, because we have looked beyond the mark.

As Paul tells us, there is a line of priesthood that comes without ordination, without father or mother without descent, having neither begging of days, nor end of life. That is the priesthood the Son has.

It is even more obvious when another priest arises [Jesus], resembling Melchizedek, one who has become a priest, not through a legal requirement concerning physical descent, but through the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of him, “You are a priest forever, according to the order of Melchizedek.” There is, on the one hand, the abrogation of an earlier commandment because it was weak and ineffectual (for the law made nothing perfect); there is, on the other hand, the introduction of a better hope, through which we approach God. (Heb 7:15-19 NRSV)

We are stuck on law, we insist Christ must be ordained (as if priesthood came from men!). It comes from God always and forever. We must not get the form confused with the power. I believe the Nephites called people differently than we do today. Alma tells us:
1. They were prepared from the foundation of the world, because of their faith and good works in the pre-mortal life.
2. Here on earth they exercised exceedingly great faith and accepted the Spirit of God.
3. Thus, because of their faith and the evidence of the power God had given them, they were ordained to the High Priesthood that all might know the way.
See, they were not ordained, then exercised faith, then given power. No, they exercised power (which was given them before this life) through faith. Having done so, they were ordained to the Holy Priesthood following the order of the Son.

The way to gain priesthood is by faith, not ordination! This is exactly what Moroni tells us, "Behold it was by faith that they of old were called after the hold order of God" (Ether 12:10). Or as Bruce R. McConkie once said, "Faith is power, and power is priesthood". Therefore gain faith and you will have priesthood, just as did the Son. Mark it down and never forget it.

Wow, That was a superb response! Thank you!

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Yes, I agree, Jesus Christ is the priesthood. He was annointed and ordained in the divine pre-mortal council.

The reason why Christ went to John for baptism was to recognize and honor His Father's priesthood authority that He and the Father had established.

When it comes to the Last Days, Christ will continue to recognize and honor the priesthood authority that He had established (in spite of the imperfectness of the people holding it).

Are you saying he will come as a lay member like the rest of us until the Prophet of the church calls him to some office or other?

I don't understand...

Peace,
Amonhi

[Obrien]

I guess the argument is that there is no record of Jesus being ordained by laying on of hands, because it does not make sense that he had been ordained to the office of teacher or seventy or any other office. Instead he had the whole priesthood. He was priest and king. And he wasn't just anointed to become one, as we are in the temple. In him it was actualized and there were no mortal man who could have bestowed that power to him.

The priesthood authority argument is the tool LDSCo uses to preside OVER you. "I have been ordained to a priesthood and set apart to rule / lead / manage your life, so obey my precept". Even when done from a loving point of view and with kindness, this attitude grows out of unrighteous dominion.
Understanding the priesthood as noted above by janderich is key to becoming a fully functioning God-in-embryo.

[Amonhi]

We are stuck on law, we insist Christ must be ordained

The concept in this post is so important to understand that I am posting it a second time just in case someone didn't see it.

I guess I need to read it a few more times, since I'm not getting the point. Why are we stuck on law if we assume that Jesus needed priesthood ordination by laying on of hands, but we are not stuck on law when we believe that Jesus, being sinless, needed to be baptized?

Jesus was baptized by water because He was showing those under the curse of the law of Moses how to fulfill the law. Likewise, all those under the same curse of the law of Moses should be baptized by water as Jesus was.

Baptism moves a person from the telestial world to the terrestrial world. This was one of Jesus' jobs, to teach us how to progress to this level. Then, once we get the spirit as a result of baptism, we follow the spirit to God. As one follows the spirit, they then receive priesthood power.

Jesus didn't have to be ordained by the laying on of hands because real priesthood power comes as a result of following the spirit. Jesus had already showed people that first they must be baptized and then the law would be fulfilled; as a result they could have the spirit and subsequently priesthood power.

In short, once you know how to follow the spirit, the law of moses is fulfilled.

That is correct. The Law of Moses or Preparatory Gospel is designed to prepare you for the Holy Ghost. It is administered by the Aaronic priesthood and everything it focuses on is making us worthy or preparing us to receive the Holy Ghost. Once we receive the Holy Ghost, then the Aaronic priesthood has fulfilled its purpose and is removed along with all its principles, ordinances and teachings.

Jesus had the spirit before he was baptized because baptism is not a requirement for the gift of the holy Ghost. But he was baptized because he was circumcised and therefore a debtor to do the whole law, even though it was dead and meaningless.

Galatians 5:3
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Baptism is part of the Law of Moses, along with all the other principles and ordinances performed by the Aaronic priesthood, none of which can save you.

2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.

True priesthood or power from God comes through the Holy Ghost to both men, women and children. The priesthood used in the church is symbolic at best and has no real power without the Holy Ghost. When the spirit withdraws, Amen to the True priesthood and authority of that man...or woman...

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man. - D&C 121

If any person, Jesus, you, me, male or female is acting by the power and direction of the Holy Ghost, then they are authorized to act for God in whatever capacity God tells them to act. And God will give them whatever spiritual power if required to do as they are called. This does not mean that I can walk into the Church HQ and sit down in the Presidents chair and start calling the shots for the church. Position is a different thing entirely and follows the same corporate structure of any legal organization or entity. There is no position in the church that has a claim on the spirit, it is always based on personal worthiness.

Jesus power/priesthood came from God directly through the spirit. There was no ordination by the hand of men. It wasn't and isn't required. So to, from Moses to Jesus, all prophets who had the Melchizedek priesthood did not get it by the laying on of hands of men. They got it directly from God just like 3rd Nephi and Elisha and Elijah. This is because the Melchizedek priesthood was taken from them and they only had the Aaronic Priesthood publicly. But all the prophets during that time were given the Melchizedek priesthood from God directly. Just as it was with Jesus.

Peace,
Amonhi

[davedan]

Yes, I agree, Jesus Christ is the priesthood. He was annointed and ordained in the divine pre-mortal council.

The reason why Christ went to John for baptism was to recognize and honor His Father's priesthood authority that He and the Father had established.

When it comes to the Last Days, Christ will continue to recognize and honor the priesthood authority that He had established (in spite of the imperfectness of the people holding it).

Are you saying he will come as a lay member like the rest of us until the Prophet of the church calls him to some office or other?

I don't understand...

Peace,
Amonhi

It think it will be like 3 Nephi 11 in the Book of Mormon. Christ came and recognized Nephi as the head of His Church.

“That Jesus will be a resident on the earth a thousand [years] with the Saints is not the case, but will reign over the Saints and come down and instruct, as he did the five hundred brethren [see 1 Corinthians 15:6], and those of the first resurrection will also reign with him over the Saints.” -- Joseph Smith

[Amonhi]

Yes, I agree, Jesus Christ is the priesthood. He was annointed and ordained in the divine pre-mortal council.

The reason why Christ went to John for baptism was to recognize and honor His Father's priesthood authority that He and the Father had established.

When it comes to the Last Days, Christ will continue to recognize and honor the priesthood authority that He had established (in spite of the imperfectness of the people holding it).

Are you saying he will come as a lay member like the rest of us until the Prophet of the church calls him to some office or other?

I don't understand...

Peace,
Amonhi

It think it will be like 3 Nephi 11 in the Book of Mormon. Christ came and recognized Nephi as the head of His Church.

“That Jesus will be a resident on the earth a thousand [years] with the Saints is not the case, but will reign over the Saints and come down and instruct, as he did the five hundred brethren [see 1 Corinthians 15:6], and those of the first resurrection will also reign with him over the Saints.” -- Joseph Smith

Thanks.

In the D&C, the Lord points out that a person can be called and ordained to the priesthood and even given a position in the priesthood. But then he says that because the priesthood is directly tied to the powers of heaven and the powers of heaven can only be handled and controlled upon the principles of righteousness, if a priesthood holder or leader "exercises control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man. Behold, He isn't even aware that, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God."
When we say, how many of our leaders really exercise unrighteous dominion and therefore lose their priesthood while in positions of authority and without even being aware they persecute the saints and fight against God?
The Lord responds,

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

By my understanding,
none = 0%
half = 50%
most = 51%+
a large majority = 75%+
all = 100%
"almost all" = almost 100%. Maybe 95-97%, not 100% but close to 100% or just under 100%

That fits with my experience. I used to be in that 95-97% of unrighteous leaders, so I recognize my mistakes in others.


So, the Lord says that approximately 95-97% of men who get called to positions of authority immediately begin exercising unrighteous dominion. Some delay a little and don't do it immediately but still do it and some resist the temptation and understand correct principles and never do.

With that in mind, will Jesus come and recognize positions in the church even when they don't have true priesthood or powers of heaven or will he recognize true priesthood?

Based on the quote you provided by Joseph Smith, it sounds like he will bring those who have merited the First resurrection, (which means only those who have their C&E made sure by the holy spirit of promise, see D&C 76:50-71, all the rest, Terrestrial and Telestial, come forth in the resurrection of the unjust at the end of the millennium, see D&C 76:17,).

So will those who have their C&E come down with him and be placed in the leadership positions over the church in a big reorganization of authority or will he allow "almost all men" that have NO priesthood or power from heaven to keep their positions and continue to persecute the saints and fight against God?

It sounds like a great reorganization to me...almost like to be a leader in the millennium, you will have to qualify for the resurrection of the just by being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise which is how you make your calling and election sure.

Another interesting point is that if you are sealed by the Holy spirit of Promise, (ie, your calling and election is made sure), then you are a member of the church of the Firstborn. If the members of the church of the Firstborn are the ones that are going to "will also reign with him (Jesus) over the Saints" as Joseph Smith said, then doesn't that mean that the Church of the Firstborn will be God's church and governing body over the earth and not the LDS church during the millennium? #-o

I seriously had no idea that walking down this path would lead us to this conclusion. Beautiful as it is. I was just walking to see where the path led. Makes perfect sense to me. Besides, if mortal leaders who didn't have their C&E died in the millennium, they wouldn't be resurrected till the end of the millennium. That leaves vacancy in the leadership without calling someone else. But if they have their C&E, then they will be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortal to immortal and stay in position, no vacancy...

I'm out of time,
Peace,
Amonhi