The Handbook

[shadow]

I think it's kind of disgusting the way some of you are treating Lizzy here. The fact that she goes to the temple often is all I need to know about her obedience and love of the Savior.

I wouldn't base any judgment on temple attendance. People go to the Temple when they shouldn't.
If anyone ponderizes why the church has these clothing standardizations an answer should come fairly quickly- it's been mentioned above already. These knee-jerk reactions and shallow criticisms are usually quite silly.

[Mark]

I think it's kind of disgusting the way some of you are treating Lizzy here. The fact that she goes to the temple often is all I need to know about her obedience and love of the Savior.

I wouldn't base any judgment on temple attendance. People go to the Temple when they shouldn't.
If anyone ponderizes why the church has these clothing standardizations an answer should come fairly quickly- it's been mentioned above already. These knee-jerk reactions and shallow criticisms are usually quite silly.

It's called a murmuring or grumbling spirit. The church seems to be a target of many such members and non members alike. Complainers abound. Here is a good article about the dangers involved in developing a grumbling spirit.


https://bjstockman.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... ng-spirit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Obrien]

There are important practical reasons why temple robes need to be regimented and uniform. Thinking it is unfair that you cannot wear your "own" is not seeing the bigger picture.

One of those practical realities is that if you give most women an inch, they will take a mile. In other words, Lizzie, even if your hand made temple apron was not very outstandingly different than the machine made ones, the tendency for most women is to "want one, too" and the sad truth is that the one they make will be more elaborate and fancier than what you wore. This will catch on until temple aprons become more and more an individual fashion statement with temple packets having to enlarge to accommadate them. You think it won't happen, but it will.

Some "control" really has to be maintained. Sad to say, if you give some women a "fashion" inch they will eagerly take a mile.

A while back I posted on a thread in the sisters section on Temple Altar Cloths. A sister wanted to make one, and was asking for patterns. I apprised her of the fact that there are temple approved patterns that are much easier for the temple to maintain and last longer than the fancy ones she wanted to make, naively thinking she would really appreciate knowing this. Well, instead she verbally chopped my head off at the very insinuation that the temple could tell her what to make, and instead of caring about the extra work what she wanted to make caused the temple, In turn, she criticized the workers, declared she must be the only one who liked beautiful altar cloths, and if necessary she would just have to come down to the temple and take care of the altar cloths herself!

This thread and her response to me is still there for anyone to read. And it is obvious to me, anyway, which half of the conflict there the real "control " issue.

I actually think the story of your mother, LIzzie, is a very inspiring one. I love her obedience and sacrifice.

you're right - it's called SELF control.

[passionflower]

And self control is what Lizzie;'s mother made very good use of.

She must have been very very disappointed when she was apprised of the rules in the handbook. Disappointment is a difficult emotion to deal with, and the easy thing is to put one's own feelings first. And on top of it all, none of this is really her own fault because how was she to know? considering all this, It is understandable that Lizzie would feel badly for her.

Her mother displays an above average amount of self control, and even more important she had a "submitted will" neither of which we see too often today. I still think this is actually a great story and Lizzies mom gives us all a lot to live up to. Even though one day these aprons will all be dust, this example she set on this occasion will live on.

I know it gave me a lot to ponder on.

[Mark]

And self control is what Lizzie;'s mother made very good use of.

She must have been very very disappointed when she was apprised of the rules in the handbook. Disappointment is a difficult emotion to deal with, and the easy thing is to put one's own feelings first. And on top of it all, none of this is really her own fault because how was she to know? considering all this, It is understandable that Lizzie would feel badly for her.

Her mother displays an above average amount of self control, and even more important she had a "submitted will" neither of which we see too often today. I still think this is actually a great story and Lizzies mom gives us all a lot to live up to. Even though one day these aprons will all be dust, this example she set on this occasion will live on.

I know it gave me a lot to ponder on.

I agree passionflower. Lizzie on the other hand chooses to take the other path. I didn't get the impression that her Mother would have ever said, " It's a Pharisaical rule, designed to maintain control!" That comes from a rebellious attitude unwilling to bend their own will to anyone. It is akin to what I see so many in the church saying today about any policy or counsel coming from the leadership. If they don't personally like it they berate the leaders as uninspired and out of touch with the realities of today. They murmur. We know who loves to see that now don't we. :ymdevil:

[Jesef]

I served as a bishop and in leadership through two handbook changes. From my perspective they are policy, practice, and governing documents, not scripture or doctrine. The prescriptions and proscriptions found therein change too much to qualify. Not to say there isn't a lot of inspired counsel in them either. But for all intents and purposes, the Handbook is similar to the Mishnah of the Pharisees - all the practical rules and interpretations that the Jewish leaders made and put on top of the scriptures in order to make the religion manageable - sometimes to positive effect and sometimes not so much - as Jesus pointed out. These are also known as traditions.

Anyway, many of the policies, procedures, and practices in the handbooks, even major ones, have changed over time - so they are not enduring. I always did appreciate, at least in the most recent edition (2010 I think), how much inspirational leeway was given to the local leader, i.e. not so many rules carved in stone. I did find that older leaders would often enforce the older rules and I would have to point out the changes in the newer handbooks to appeal or make a case. Often they stuck with their tradition anyway - this is human nature, to stick with what we were raised with or feel comfortable with versus change. That's why major changes have to come from the top down, leveraging the hierarchical authority structure, in an official way like letters from the FP &/or Twelve.

So many variations are simply harmless and insignificant, though. Yet our culture judges "faithfulness" by degree of conformity. Example: in some areas, where the Church culture is dominant or strong, like Idaho/Utah/Arizona (the Mormon Corridor, or Morridor as some like to call it), wearing a white shirt is a sign of worthiness for priesthood holders, and full suits with matching coats (dark colors) are signs of priesthood leadership caliber - clean-shavenness, too. Wearing a plaide or colored shirt and having facial hair is treated almost like tattoos, i.e. taboo. This is ridiculous traditionalism, in my opinion. Haircuts, facial hair, clothing colors and styles (all modest) - it's all outward appearance judgment. Some of these "missionary" and GA-looking guys are committing adultery on the side - whited sepulchres, as Jesus called some of the Pharisees/Sadducees. The Lord looketh on the heart. In some places our Church culture has become quite Pharisaical. I don't think it's a good thing.

[eddie]

[LDS Physician]

I served as a bishop and in leadership through two handbook changes. From my perspective they are policy, practice, and governing documents, not scripture or doctrine. The prescriptions and proscriptions found therein change too much to qualify. Not to say there isn't a lot of inspired counsel in them either. But for all intents and purposes, the Handbook is similar to the Mishnah of the Pharisees - all the practical rules and interpretations that the Jewish leaders made and put on top of the scriptures in order to make the religion manageable - sometimes to positive effect and sometimes not so much - as Jesus pointed out. These are also known as traditions.

Anyway, many of the policies, procedures, and practices in the handbooks, even major ones, have changed over time - so they are not enduring. I always did appreciate, at least in the most recent edition (2010 I think), how much inspirational leeway was given to the local leader, i.e. not so many rules carved in stone. I did find that older leaders would often enforce the older rules and I would have to point out the changes in the newer handbooks to appeal or make a case. Often they stuck with their tradition anyway - this is human nature, to stick with what we were raised with or feel comfortable with versus change. That's why major changes have to come from the top down, leveraging the hierarchical authority structure, in an official way like letters from the FP &/or Twelve.

So many variations are simply harmless and insignificant, though. Yet our culture judges "faithfulness" by degree of conformity. Example: in some areas, where the Church culture is dominant or strong, like Idaho/Utah/Arizona (the Mormon Corridor, or Morridor as some like to call it), wearing a white shirt is a sign of worthiness for priesthood holders, and full suits with matching coats (dark colors) are signs of priesthood leadership caliber - clean-shavenness, too. Wearing a plaide or colored shirt and having facial hair is treated almost like tattoos, i.e. taboo. This is ridiculous traditionalism, in my opinion. Haircuts, facial hair, clothing colors and styles (all modest) - it's all outward appearance judgment. Some of these "missionary" and GA-looking guys are committing adultery on the side - whited sepulchres, as Jesus called some of the Pharisees/Sadducees. The Lord looketh on the heart. In some places our Church culture has become quite Pharisaical. I don't think it's a good thing.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I'm currently a bishop and feel the same about the handbook. In this particular case, I would want to take a look at the item she had made to assure that it wasn't gaudy or way out of the norm. Then I'd (unless the Spirit dictated otherwise) encourage her to continue her wonderful family tradition. It's much about the motivation behind her tradition rather than the tradition itself. That's just me. Perhaps that's incorrect, but that's how I'd handle it. I try to think what the Savior would think of what she was doing.

[Serragon]

And self control is what Lizzie;'s mother made very good use of.

She must have been very very disappointed when she was apprised of the rules in the handbook. Disappointment is a difficult emotion to deal with, and the easy thing is to put one's own feelings first. And on top of it all, none of this is really her own fault because how was she to know? considering all this, It is understandable that Lizzie would feel badly for her.

Her mother displays an above average amount of self control, and even more important she had a "submitted will" neither of which we see too often today. I still think this is actually a great story and Lizzies mom gives us all a lot to live up to. Even though one day these aprons will all be dust, this example she set on this occasion will live on.

I know it gave me a lot to ponder on.

One of the things that I really dislike about our culture is that we are so afraid to offend an individual that we end up making rules and laws the punish everyone instead.

Passionflower brings up a very valid point about people trying to outdo each other with homemade aprons. This would definately happen. The problem is that instead of just telling those people to knock it off, we make blanket rules that affect everyone else. Basically, we are saying "you can't do this because someone else might abuse it".

Let people make their own temple clothes if they so choose. Give parameters and guidelines for those folks to work under. And tell the offenders to stop instead of punishing everyone.

[Jesef]

Isn't the thing about leaves kind of like snowflakes, that they're all unique? Who cares what someone's leaves look like on their apron. I like the idea of general parameters and freedom of expression, like for aprons: green, count of leaves in rows, etc. Done deal. If they start telling us what color ties and suits and cuts to where, etc... Please! Minutia, trivia, ridiculousness! This is what the Pharisees got so distracted by. Some people welcome such - gives them an opportunity to be more "obedient with exactness" - the more useless commandments/rules they receive, the more subservient and faithful they can pretend or show themselves off to be. And then our religion/culture becomes even less palatable to intelligent, free-thinking, creative people - because we seem like lemmings, all about fruitless, pointless obedience/compliance, uniformity, etc. It makes me gag a little bit. Look how unique the Creator made each of us. The similarities make us human - the uniqueness makes us interesting.

[h_p]

Here's what the introduction to Handbook 1 says. Maybe it is we who are trying to turn it into a book of law?

Leaders also learn their duties by studying the instructions in Church handbooks. These instructions can facilitate revelation if they are used to provide an understanding of principles, policies, and procedures to apply while seeking the guidance of the Spirit.

[StacyNorton]

Change the title of the thread to "handbook 1" for clarity.

It shouldn't be secret from the members. It's not scripture and as long as it's secret, it violates the law of common consent to treat it as scripture. We're not bound by it until it becomes public and is upheld by common consent.

[Amonhi]

Well you're a rebel now Lizzy. Next you're going to start keeping the little cups from sacrament too.

:))

Lol

[Amonhi]

Does the HB 1 address the number of steps we may take on the Sabbath?

Not to derail, but why would the sacrament cup kid (above) be taking the sacrament in the first place? I thought the emblems were to be shared among those who have taken a choice for Jesus. Is this issue addressed in HB 1?

Hehehe, it's right next to what you are allowed to do a and not allowed to do on Sundays. Lol

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Although it would be very difficult to implement, I often wonder whether we are right to offer the sacrament to everyone.

The Handbook says

Although the sacrament is for Church members, the bishopric should not announce that it will be passed to members only, and nothing should be done to prevent nonmembers from partaking of it.

(HB 2:20.4.1)

I think this is a wise policy. If we made a big deal about offering the sacrament only to the members, it would give too much weight to the outer ordinance. How could we be sure that someone is worthy to partake the sacrament just because he is a member? In every ordinance, it is not just what we do that matters, but more importantly what happens in our minds and hearts.

Well stated.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

You would not believe the nice compliments I've received. It's really beautiful, with intricate stitching forming the veins in the leaves.

Oh, fine-twined apparel in the Temple. Nice B-). I bet you get compliments. Meanwhile, everyone else in the Temple is equal.

"the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen"

Are you serious? Have you noticed all the varieties of temple dresses at the Distribution Center? There are simple sack-like dresses for a small price, and more ornate ones for more money. There are different shoes, and on and on. You are grasping at straws with your criticism of the compliments I've received because my mother created a beautiful item for me to wear, which, incidentally, is almost identical to my great-grandmother's, back when everyone made their own.

FYI, I regularly shop at DI. I'm the LAST person who would be said to wear "fine-twined linen" by those who know me in real life.

Yeah, I would be a bit miffed too. I've used my ancestors' temple things for years. I feel the spirit just as much as when I rent clothes. There is clearly a distinction between the options you can buy through the church distribution and because the prices are different between the options, you can claim a class distinction.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

You would not believe the nice compliments I've received. It's really beautiful, with intricate stitching forming the veins in the leaves.

Oh, fine-twined apparel in the Temple. Nice B-). I bet you get compliments. Meanwhile, everyone else in the Temple is equal.

"the people of the church began to wax proud, because of their exceeding riches, and their fine silks, and their fine-twined linen"

Are you serious? Have you noticed all the varieties of temple dresses at the Distribution Center? There are simple sack-like dresses for a small price, and more ornate ones for more money. There are different shoes, and on and on. You are grasping at straws with your criticism of the compliments I've received because my mother created a beautiful item for me to wear, which, incidentally, is almost identical to my great-grandmother's, back when everyone made their own.

FYI, I regularly shop at DI. I'm the LAST person who would be said to wear "fine-twined linen" by those who know me in real life.

"beautiful intricate stitching" obviously isn't the same as "fine-twined linen" 8-|
I'm sure those scriptures only apply to others

It is difficult to make class distinctions when you are comparing homemade items. There is no price tag on it, just personal time and effort. Some people may be more talented than others or take more time than others, but neither of these is a quality that should be criticized. We put the very best into our temples as a witness of out dedication to God. If someone wants to spend time making a beautiful stair case for the temple or a beautiful apron for the temple as an act of love and devotion, then we should celebrate their commitment, love and legacy rather than criticize it. The fact remains that the church policy has changed over time. It wasn't a sin to make the apron before and there is sin in making or wearing a homemade one now. The church policy is given for a reason, but they don't give the reason. Without reason there is no persuasion only expected blind obedience. There is no teaching of correct principles and allowing people to govern themselves.

Who is under more condemnation, the person who has given their best to the Lord, or the person who criticizes the first person for doing so?

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Just a thought but couldn't your grandmother buy the kits and sew them and you would all still have one from your grandmother? Each family member gets something from your grandmother to cherish and she keeps in the guidelines of the church and remains faithful - it's a win win.

It sounds to me like she was replicating a pattern used by her great ancestor. Kind of like a Pioneer history or Pioneer heritage emblem.

Not so exciting to have a Church pattern unrelated to the family history.

Peace,
Amonhi

[e-eye2.0]

Just a thought but couldn't your grandmother buy the kits and sew them and you would all still have one from your grandmother? Each family member gets something from your grandmother to cherish and she keeps in the guidelines of the church and remains faithful - it's a win win.

It sounds to me like she was replicating a pattern used by her great ancestor. Kind of like a Pioneer history or Pioneer heritage emblem.

Not so exciting to have a Church pattern unrelated to the family history.

Peace,
Amonhi

That goes back to letting go of traditions which the church has had issues with at times. Traditions are great don't get me wrong but they can also be a stumbling block or hindrance. There are far greater things to worry about than this but if a simple change like this is a struggle for a member what are they to do when we become a more zion people and the Lord really starts to change things so we can live a higher law together?

[Amonhi]

Just a thought but couldn't your grandmother buy the kits and sew them and you would all still have one from your grandmother? Each family member gets something from your grandmother to cherish and she keeps in the guidelines of the church and remains faithful - it's a win win.

It sounds to me like she was replicating a pattern used by her great ancestor. Kind of like a Pioneer history or Pioneer heritage emblem.

Not so exciting to have a Church pattern unrelated to the family history.

Peace,
Amonhi

That goes back to letting go of traditions which the church has had issues with at times. Traditions are great don't get me wrong but they can also be a stumbling block or hindrance. There are far greater things to worry about than this but if a simple change like this is a struggle for a member what are they to do when we become a more zion people and the Lord really starts to change things so we can live a higher law together?

I am fairly certain that as far as the ordinance goes it really doesn't matter which pattern she wears either way. The only principle that I can see at play in this discussion is that of obedience to authority. Does the principle of obedience to leadership outweigh the principle of love and family connection. Is God obedience or is God love?

I guess each of us have to determine which is more important. It sounds like Lizzy is going with Love and family connection. I can't fault her for that. I also celebrate diversity and know that it is extremely important in the kingdom of God.

No power or influence ought to be maintained except by persuasion, and I am not persuaded on this point, so I would not allow the handbook to influence me. To each their own.

Peace,
Amonhi

[shadow]

Obedience and love are not separate.
"If ye love me, keep my commandments" Even the ones you haven't been "persuaded" to keep.
Some people aren't persuaded because they're stubborn and/or prideful. We see it all the time. Not being persuaded is not an excuse.

Great observation from e-eye- the tradition that needs to be broken is the one Lizzy is refusing to let go.

[eddie]

"When we love the Lord, obedience ceases to be a burden." Joseph B. Wirthlin

[Amonhi]

Obedience and love are not separate.
"If ye love me, keep my commandments" Even the ones you haven't been "persuaded" to keep.
Some people aren't persuaded because they're stubborn and/or prideful. We see it all the time. Not being persuaded is not an excuse.

Great observation from e-eye- the tradition that needs to be broken is the one Lizzy is refusing to let go.

I love my children, I do not always obey them. I love my Father. I do not always obey him. Love does not require or denote obedience. Disobedience does not indicate a lack of love.

That being said, if a person has the spirit while attending the temple wearing a non standard apron made by loved ones, then God has approved it and all can hold their tongues.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love joy, peace,, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Peace,
Amonhi