Baptism of fire: A mighty change?

[marc]

There has been much discussion of what this means. Someone messaged me about my own experience and I thought I'd share some personal insight, for what it's worth considering the criticism leveled against the "church." Being born again does not a perfect man make. And it's likely that most who have experienced that mighty change of heart and have committed to follow the Lord have yet to fine tune their nature, particularly where patience, longsuffering, brotherly kindness and charity are concerned. I know I have a lot of work to do.

Personally speaking, after decades of careful study of the scriptures and with my own baptism of fire, I see clearly the condemnation I was under (and perhaps still am), which many in the church are still under. But rather than point finger and look into the motes of the eyes of others, I concentrate instead on the beam in my own eye. I focus on loving rather than judging. There is a reason the Lord commanded us to avoid disputations. We are all at different points along the path to Christ.

[Robert Sinclair]

I do not know, to claim knowledge of all things, but this I have seen written, when Peter and the Twelve, and the members of the church, had all things common among them, and gathered together upon the day of Pentecost, and were baptized with cloven tongues of fire, afterwards, Peter was able to heal the lame from birth, saying "In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk". (See Acts 3:6). And Peter again raised the dead, as is written in (Acts 9:40).

This was for sure, a mighty change, that fell upon Peter.

And a promise made to the elders of this church, in D&C 105:12 to be poured out upon them----

"For behold, I have prepared a great endowment and blessing to be poured out upon them, inasmuch as they are faithful and continue in humility before me."

A test of faith, and humility, with which to pass, as written that they learn their duty, be taught more perfectly, reguarding his celestial law, of a united order, and have experience with it, being equal in their temporal things, and this not grudgingly, all things common among them of their own freewill. ♡

♡ ♡

[marc]

p.s. there is no path until after the gate. Before the gate is just a large and spacious field.

[Robert Sinclair]

Until then, in this field, let these posts give comfort---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPiCVuSOzmI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes, may the elders of Israel, become a light----

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLNn2YflwNs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And help, this so very troubled nation.

♡ ♡

[marc]

I'm partial to this one.

[Robert Sinclair]

Is it not wonderful, how music can motivate, for a good cause. For even Moses has songs recorded, in his five books.

This for some reason, always has moved me at this time of the year----

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4hkwhOiD98" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

♡ ♡

Enjoy your posts marc.♡

[diligently seeking]

http://www.byutv.org/watch/4ce3a805-2bd ... 70d2277077" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


"Receiving the eternal"

Saw this on byutv yesterday.

Some good stuff....

Ps U2 " love is a temple love the higher law" Some u2 intimations ?received by the great Intimater of truth? intimating the importance of being sealed by its power by "receiving the eternal"..... Pps watch the link (BYU devotional) ^^^to clear up what may appear to be a riddle

http://youtu.be/1VuuSnzO_t0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Robert Sinclair]

And marc, I was in L.A. at the time of this happening, wondering why such heavy traffic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzZWSrr5wFI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So I know of the band you posted a little bit.

♡ ♡

[diligently seeking]

And marc, I was in L.A. at the time of this happening, wondering why such heavy traffic?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzZWSrr5wFI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
V
So I know of the band you posted a little bit.

♡ ♡

Haha good stuff / memories. Robert, we can gain a large basket full of positive memories / experiences in this fallen sphere. Thank the goodness of Christ we can rocket past the desire for its eternal telestial membership and find ourselves in a holier celestial sphere, one day.

[Robert Sinclair]

Got to labor, and be in pain, as a woman in travail, in childbirth, who wants the pain to end quickly, that the child of ZION, may be born, once again, for all whom desire, for such to be so soon.♡

♡ ♡

[Robert Sinclair]

Yes, yes,

"Equal in your temporal things, and this not grudgingly."

♡ ♡

[Robert Sinclair]

A good thing to seek for, ask for, and knock on the door of God for.

♡ ♡

[h_p]

Well said, Marc.

[Finrock]

Having a mighty change, more than anything else, has exposed my weaknesses and my dependence on God and how that I am nothing. It is not the end, but only the beginning of the path. There is much work still to do and many other promises to receive on the path.

-Finrock

[marc]

Moses 6: 59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified

By the blood ye are sanctified. We are ever fallen until we are redeemed (FROM. THE. FALL.) Being redeemed from the fall is to be brought back into God's presence. Even with the baptism of fire, which justifies us, we remain on this side of the veil (standing in peril every hour).

Until we press forward and fall to the ground to partake of the fruit of eternal life (which is parting the veil) we remain somewhere along the mists of darkness clinging to rod. It isn't until our labor is complete and we are encircled about in the arms of the Lord, that we are no longer sojourners, but instead have found rest. It is this rest, which becomes an anchor to our soul. It is the gift at the end of the path, which began with a gift, which is free to any who seek to claim it.

When Jesus was baptized by water (by keeping the commandment), he was baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost, which was symbolized by the dove and He was justified. And by the blood (the voice of the Father from heaven declaring Jesus a SON) was He sanctified. This is the entire matter distilled into one singular event for a sinless man. For the rest of us, a painful, longsuffering, and maybe ultimately a joyful experience.

Seek His gifts!

[inquirringmind]

Hi marc.

Are you aware of what's being suggested in the Mormon remnant community?

It's been suggested that LDS Mormons have their terminology wrong, and that what they call the BoF &tHG is really just a preliminary visitation of the HG, and a temporary cleansing from sin, but not the new birth.

The suggestion is that it's only a taste of the real thing, and that once you have the real thing you'll literally see God, hear an audible voice tell you you're God's son, and be unable to sin unless it be unto perdition.

That teaching is being discussed right now on another forum.

Were you aware of it?

And do you think the scriptures support it.

Someone on the thread I started quoted 1 Nephi 2:16 to show that Nephi was born again, and then quoted subsequent verses to show that he still sinned, but 1 Nephi 2:16 doesn't really say Nephi was born again.

Do LDS Mormons have their terminology wrong?

[marc]

Inquiringmind, I have my own witness of things, independent of any other person here on earth. The terminology of things by others is of no consequence to me. May I recommend you tirelessly inquire of the Lord alone rather than incline your ear to anyone and everyone else?

[inquirringmind]

So do you have a witness that you've been born again?

And does that mean that if you ever commit another sin, it will be unpardonable?

BTW: A mutual acquaintance of ours is questioning whether he was ever born again, and whether anyone who hasn't seen God, can still sin and seek forgiveness, and is unable to perform miracles has received the baptism of fire.

He's bringing up these issues, and asking questions of others on another forum you belong to, and someone there asked him if he's inquired of the Lord to know if he had received his BFHG.

Do you know what He said?

Nothing yet.

But he did go on suggesting that whatever you experienced (if you haven't seen God, can't perform miracles, and can still sin) isn't the real BFHG.

Is that false doctrine?

[marc]

So do you have a witness that you've been born again?

And does that mean that if you ever commit another sin, it will be unpardonable?

BTW: A mutual acquaintance of ours is questioning whether he was ever born again, and whether anyone who hasn't seen God, can still sin and seek forgiveness, and is unable to perform miracles has received the baptism of fire.

He's bringing up these issues, and asking questions of others on another forum you belong to, and someone there asked him if he's inquired of the Lord to know if he had received his BFHG.

Do you know what He said?

Nothing yet.

But he did go on suggesting that whatever you experienced (if you haven't seen God, can't perform miracles, and can still sin) isn't the real BFHG.

Is that false doctrine?

I have a witness that I have been born again. I have a witness that I have been baptized with fire. I know who you are talking about. He is a personal friend. He is on his own journey. I respect his opinions and his understanding of things. They are his to wrestle with as I have my things to wrestle with. Why do you ask me if it's false doctrine? Have ye inquired of the Lord? If I give you my opinion, then you will have two opinions of men.

[inquirringmind]

Your friend apparently hasn't inquired of the Lord.

He's wrestling with these things out loud, and asking questions of flesh and blood people as he does so.

Why can't I do the same?

And why can't you tell me whether or not you consider his new teaching false doctrine?

And is it alright to ask what scripture has to say on the subject?

Can a new teaching like this be measured against scripture, or do you consider the scriptures a collection of opinions?

[rewcox]

Your friend apparently hasn't inquired of the Lord.

He's wrestling with these things out loud, and asking questions of flesh and blood people as he does so.

Why can't I do the same?

And why can't you tell me whether or not you consider his new teaching false doctrine?

And is it alright to ask what scripture has to say on the subject?

Can a new teaching like this be measured against scripture, or do you consider the scriptures a collection of opinions?

We answered, but you didn't believe the answer. 1N2:16 to the end of the chapter. You can see that is when Nephi was baptized by fire. While he didn't say that, you can see by his actions.

Too much Remnant or Log will mess with your brain.

[marc]

Your friend apparently hasn't inquired of the Lord.

That's none of my business.

He's wrestling with these things out loud, and asking questions of flesh and blood people as he does so.

Ok.

Why can't I do the same?

Do you require my permission?

And why can't you tell me whether or not you consider his new teaching false doctrine?

I can write a book for you, but how will you believe me?

And is it alright to ask what scripture has to say on the subject?

It's alright with me, but why do you require my permission? Who am I but a man?

Can a new teaching like this be measured against scripture, or do you consider the scriptures a collection of opinions?

You can measure whatever you want against scripture. The scriptures are filled with doctrines and opinions. Have you read the Songs of Solomon?

Again, have ye inquired of the Lord? Would you not rather have your own witness of the Holy Ghost? If you have the Holy Ghost, why do you need man to interpret scripture for you? And if you need man to interpret scripture for you, why do you need the Holy Ghost?

[inquirringmind]

In all fairness:

If it's none of your business whether your friend has inquired of the Lord, how is it your business to ask me whether I have?

And if it's alright for your friend to struggle with an issue outloud, and ask questions of the mortal members of a discussion forum, why do you ask me why I ask questions here?

BTW: Your friend has recently admitted (to a troubled Mormon housewife who seems to be doing all the right things, feels she's losing her faith, and came to a remnant forum asking for help) that even if one is diligently keeping the commandments, and fasting, and praying, it may take years before they receive a direct answer from God.

Are they not to search the scriptures and discuss them with others while they're seeking this?

And have you no interest in whether or not your friend is right?

Or in what the scriptures have to say on the subject?

If he is right you must be wrong, because he clearly believes that no one is born again until they've seen God, heard an audible voice from heaven, and can perform miracles.

And that once you have been born again you can't sin without becoming a son of perdition.

If he's right about that, your teaching false doctrine.

Is that of no concern to you?

And if your friend is deceived (or mistaken) and is teaching false doctrine, is that of no concern to you?

I should think you would consider the testimony of scripture worth discussing here.

Do you not?

Here are some passages that come to my mind.

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God; therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:1-2, JST.)

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. But if any man sin and repent, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1-2, JST.)


If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar; for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? (1 John 4:20, JST.)

Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory; Receiving the object of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (1 Peter 1:8-9, JST.)

I find then that under the law, that when I would do good evil was present with me; for I delight in the law of God after the inward man. And now I see another law, even the commandment of Christ, and it is imprinted in my mind. But my members are warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. And if I subdue not the sin which is in me, but with the flesh serve the law of sin; O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord, then, that so with the mind I myself serve the law of God. (Romans 7:24-27, JST.)

But ye are not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, though the body shall die because of sin, yet the Spirit is life, because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead, dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, unto sin, ye shall die; but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live unto Christ. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption; whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God; And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:9-17, JST.)

Can anyone else think of any passages that might be relevant here?

[Finrock]

This is what came to my mind:

Judge not that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged and with what measure ye mete it shall be measured to you again. Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye but considereth not the beem that is in thine own eye?

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Yes, don't judge. Ask God and you won't have to judge others. There will be no need to judge.

-Finrock