The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

[Spaced_Out]

Adam and Eve did not sin

Right. I never said they did, because the couldn't, until AFTER their eyes were opened.

Adam and Eve made no mistake or sin. Were innocent in the garden of eden - did not even know they were naked and there was no procreation potential. There is no other way to interpret it. It was G_d's plan. Yes it is how the G_d's got their knowledge even Jesus Christ was born into a telestrial world as the Father was it was how they gained their knowledge - there is no other way.

[LoveIsTruth]

Adam and Eve did not sin

Right. I never said they did, because the couldn't, until AFTER their eyes were opened.

Adam and Eve made no mistake or sin. Were innocent in the garden of eden - did not even know they were naked and there was no procreation potential. There is no other way to interpret it. It was G_d's plan. Yes it is how the G_d's got their knowledge even Jesus Christ was born into a telestrial world as the Father was it was how they gained their knowledge - there is no other way.

You are repeating the lies that Lucifer told to Adam and Eve. It was wrong then, and it is wrong now.

[Spaced_Out]

Adam and Eve did not sin

Right. I never said they did, because the couldn't, until AFTER their eyes were opened.

Adam and Eve made no mistake or sin. Were innocent in the garden of eden - did not even know they were naked and there was no procreation potential. There is no other way to interpret it. It was G_d's plan. Yes it is how the G_d's got their knowledge even Jesus Christ was born into a telestrial world as the Father was it was how they gained their knowledge - there is no other way.

You are repeating the lies that Lucifer told to Adam and Eve. It was wrong then, and it is wrong now.

Live in denial of the truth all you want - it does not change the fact that is what happened and has been repeated for world without number, as in the heaven's there are three degrees of glory and there is of necessity one must start in telestrial state.

Separation from G_d and having to progress outside of his direct presence is the most key part of the plan of salvation that is what came from the fall of Adam. Spiritual death - separation from God was the 'curse' of Adam but it is the only way to progress.

[LoveIsTruth]

Live in denial of the truth all you want - it does not change the fact that is what happened

Yes, the devil did speak those lies. That is a fact. And you are repeating them.

in the heaven's there are three degrees of glory and there is of necessity one must start in telestrial state.

That's not where Adam and Eve started, and not what God commanded them. So you are incorrect in the point of fact.

How do then people during the Millennium progress? It even says that "their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation." (D&C 45:58)

So the scriptures disagree with you.

Separation from G_d and having to progress outside of his direct presence is the most key part of the plan of salvation that is what came from the fall of Adam. Spiritual death - separation from God was the 'curse' of Adam but it is the only way to progress.

Not the only possible way according to God. That sin and transgression is "the only way" is the original lie of the devil. It is no more true today than it was then.

If you follow your logic, then why not start in hell and say that all have to sin, because "there is no other way."

Jesus would disagree with you.

You are wrong in the point of fact. You bought the lie that Lucifer started in the garden. It was wrong then, and it is still wrong.

I have a simple formula for you:

Right = according to the commandments of God
Wrong = contrary to the commandments.

Apply this logic to your statements and you will easily see when you are going off the rails.

[Spaced_Out]

I have a simple formula for you:

Right = according to the commandments of God
Wrong = contrary to the commandments.

Apply this logic to your statements and you will easily see when you are going off the rails.

Adam kept the higher law and did not break any laws and became mortal - which is what was G_d's plan. His plans never fail and all mankind is not unduly cursed because of one man's decision.

Yes children will grow up without sin unto salvation but they will be born to mortal parents there is no other way it is how G_d gained his knowledge and physical body and progressed and how Jesus also gained his moral body. It is the same that has been done on all other worlds without number - the same pattern the same method. There was no procreation in the garden of Eden or death one can't be sanctified without death as death is part of the sanctification of the physical body.

2 Nephi 2:25
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

There is no other way that men can it is in accordance to scripture and accordance to the teachings of the prophets.

Many mortals only are capable of living a telestrial law and can only inherit a telestrial kingdom so it is of necessity that we be taken to a telestrial state. What you are proposing is Satan's plan to force everyone to heaven by keeping them in a terrestrial state.

[LoveIsTruth]

Adam kept the higher law and did not break any laws and became mortal

That is directly contradicted by this scripture:

• And it came to pass that when Aaron saw that the king would believe his words, he began from the creation of Adam, reading the scriptures unto the king—how God created man after his own image, and that God gave him commandments, and that because of transgression, man had fallen. (Alma 22:12) 

Transgression, by definition, is breaking of the law.

- which is what was G_d's plan. His plans never fail and all mankind is not unduly cursed because of one man's decision.

There was an actual curse of Adam:

• And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.  (2 Ne. 2:21) 

Which is lifted in Christ:

• Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me. (Moroni 8:8)

Yes children will grow up without sin unto salvation but they will be born to mortal parents there is no other way it is how G_d gained his knowledge and physical body

Heavenly Father was not born to mortal parents in the eternity, neither it is how he gained his knowledge. Neither did Jesus transgress any commandment to open his eyes. You are repeating the lie the devil told in the garden.

It is the same that has been done on all other worlds

That is also false. At least you cannot prove it.
For my self, at least, I know there were many worlds where a fall did NOT occur, and that never went through a Telestial state.

There was no procreation in the garden of Eden

By choice, not by physical necessity.

one can't be sanctified without death as death is part of the sanctification of the physical body.

The Father did not have to die to sanctify his body. Neither would Adam and Eve if they did not transgress.

Moreover, in the Millennium they are changed in a twinkling of an eye to an immortal state. You can call it "death" but it is not worthy of its name.
This is why the scripture says of the Millennium:

• And there shall be no sorrow because there is no death. (D&C 101:29)

2 Nephi 2:25
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

There is no other way that men can it is in accordance to scripture and accordance to the teachings of the prophets.

That is false because you do not understand the scripture, and it is contrary to what God has commanded. Therefore the correct meaning of that scripture is:

• "Adam fell because he would not that men might be any other way; and men are, that they might have joy."

Many mortals only are capable of living a telestrial law and can only inherit a telestrial kingdom so it is of necessity that we be taken to a telestrial state.

Then why not extend your logic and say: "Many people will go to hell, therefore it is of necessity that we all be taken to hell?"
Yes, many people will go to hell, it still does not make Adam and Eve's choice a right one, because it is directly against what God has commanded them.

In fact, in the Millennium billions of children will be born and live out their lives in a Terrestrial state. "And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation." (D&C 45:58)

No telestial state for those billions. This and more is what God had in mind for Adam and Eve and their posterity if they chose to listen to him.

What you are proposing is Satan's plan to force everyone to heaven by keeping them in a terrestrial state.

I am not forcing anyone, nor do I propose forcing anyone. It was God's plan that Adam and Eve lived, had their eyes opened by resisting temptation, and had their children in the garden of Eden, because he commanded so.

They disobeyed him and chose a different plan, for which God was also amply prepared. But it was a bad choice for Adam and Eve, which was the reason for the curse, fall, and death that they received.

[Spaced_Out]

Adam kept the higher law and did not break any laws and became mortal

That is directly contradicted by this scripture:

• And it came to pass that when Aaron saw that the king would believe his words, he began from the creation of Adam, reading the scriptures unto the king—how God created man after his own image, and that God gave him commandments, and that because of transgression, man had fallen. (Alma 22:12) 

Transgression, by definition, is breaking of the law. Yes he broke the lower law to keep the higher law, not so hard to understand.

- which is what was G_d's plan. His plans never fail and all mankind is not unduly cursed because of one man's decision.

There was an actual curse of Adam: Yes there is but is was the plan I said unduly cursed ie. that we are not all under the curse or being punished because of Adam decision. Your statement indicates that we are on a different plan due to Adam making a bad decision and we are under the curse of Adam which is not necessary (according to your writings). I am saying that it was the plan and we agreed to it in the preexistence that we would come down to mortality and be tempted and tested. Your proposal that there is another way and we are unnecessary under the cures e of Adam is false doctrine.

• And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents.  (2 Ne. 2:21) 

Which is lifted in Christ:

• Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me. (Moroni 8:8)

Yes children will grow up without sin unto salvation but they will be born to mortal parents there is no other way it is how G_d gained his knowledge and physical body

Heavenly Father was not born to mortal parents in the eternity, neither it is how he gained his knowledge. Neither did Jesus transgress any commandment to open his eyes. You are repeating the lie the devil told in the garden. That is exactly how Heavenly Father got his knowledge it is according to scripture and teaching of the prophets.
Satan did not lie he was attempting to deice Adam and Eve so he could bring them to mortality and try to them to fail,, the same that has been done in all other worlds without number.
Moses 5:11
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

It is the same that has been done on all other worlds

That is also false. At least you cannot prove it.
For my self, at least, I know there were many worlds where a fall did NOT occur. BS

There was no procreation in the garden of Eden

By choice, not by physical necessity.

one can't be sanctified without death as death is part of the sanctification of the physical body.

The Father did not have to die to sanctify his body. Neither would Adam and Eve if they did not transgress.

If they did not transgress the lower law they would of continued to live in a terrestrial state for all eternity without opportunity to progress. G_d never does anything necessarily, there is a reason the tree of knowledge was placed in the garden - it is the only way to gain the knowledge.


Moreover, in the Millennium they are changed in a twinkling of an eye to an immortal state. You can call it "death" but it is not worthy of its name.
This is why the scripture says of the Millennium:

• And there shall be no sorrow because there is no death. (D&C 101:29)

2 Nephi 2:25
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

There is no other way that men can it is in accordance to scripture and accordance to the teachings of the prophets.

That is false because you do not understand the scripture, and it is contrary to what God has commanded. Therefore the correct meaning of that scripture is:

• "Adam fell because he would not that men might be any other way; and men are, that they might have joy."

Many mortals only are capable of living a telestrial law and can only inherit a telestrial kingdom so it is of necessity that we be taken to a telestrial state.

Then why not extend your logic and say: "Many people will go to hell, therefore it is of necessity that we all be taken to hell?"
Yes, many people will go to hell, it still does not make Adam and Eve's choice a right one, because it is directly against what God has commanded them.

No-- Again G_d gave two contradictory commandment and allowed them to chose for themselves in the garden. Free agency is always given - Adam and Eve chose the higher law and after they received their knowledge were glad they did it. No one is glad after having sinned - they did not sin only transgressed a lower law and were blessed for their decisions.

They take themselves to hell. Satans plan to force every one to exaltation,the principle of free agency is an overriding principle - people are given the freedom to chose. It is there decision, hell is temporary place that people go to in the spirit world prior to the resurrection, then they receive a kingdom of glory. Yes 1/3 of all the hosts of heaven were kicked out of heaven without even receiving a body or any chance of progression and the majority of the remainder will end up in the telestrial kingdom - it is according to their desires and what law they can live. It is a great place and far better than not having a body.
Your interpretation of 2 Nephi 2:25 and out of context of the scripture and teaching of other scriptures and the prophets and you know it.

What you are proposing is Satan's plan to force everyone to heaven by keeping them in a terrestrial state.

I am not forcing anyone, nor do I propose forcing anyone. It was God's plan that Adam and Eve live, have their eyes opened by resisting temptation, and have their children in the garden of Eden, because he commanded so.

They disobeyed him and chose a different plan, for which God was also amply prepared. But it was a bad choice for Adam and Eve, which was the reason for the curse, fall, and death that they received.

He did not command so but gave them the opportunity to choose for themselves and made them aware of the consequence of their decision, it was not G_d's plan that they should have children while in the garden as they were like children and had no capacity to have children in the garden,
"And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."(Moses 5:11)

[Jesef]

Is there any real value to arguing over allegories or mythology (the unprovable or possibly even unknowable) besides entertainment? It's kind of like arguing over movies or comic books. Like whether Jar Jar Binks is a Sith Lord...

Faith is that which is hoped for but not seen (not provable, not really arguable); so why argue when you won't really KNOW until after the trial of your faith is over?

[LoveIsTruth]

Yes he broke the lower law to keep the higher law, not so hard to understand.

That is lunacy. In fact, he broke the higher law and the lower law together.

In fact he who keeps the higher law does NOT break the lower.
Example:

"Lower" fundamental law: "Thou shall not steal"
Higher law: "Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again." (Luke 6:30)

Adam and Eve, however did something entirely different. They transgressed the higher law, under pretext of keeping a lower law, which actually was unnecessary and wrong, because there was a better way, a way defined by perfectly harmonious, non-self-contradictory, and perfectly doable commandments that God gave to them.

I am saying that it was the plan and we agreed to it in the preexistence that we would come down to mortality and be tempted and tested. Your proposal that there is another way and we are unnecessary under the cures e of Adam is false doctrine.

In the pre-existence, the Saviour agreed to come to this world and to be beaten, spit upon and crucified. It does not mean, however, that they who did these things to him were doing the right thing. Do you get the difference?

Also, we agreed in pre-existence to be born under the curse of Adam, but it does not mean that Adam did the right thing by unwittingly placing it on us by disobeying the commandments of God.

And yes, there was another way,-- the way that God commanded.

Why is it so hard to understand that God does not and cannot give self-contradictory commandments?

Self-contradiction is the definition of error. And intentional self-contradiction is the definition of sin.

God would cease to be God if he contradicted himself. This is something he NEVER does.

That is exactly how Heavenly Father got his knowledge it is according to scripture and teaching of the prophets.

Really? Would you care to site those scriptures or teachings of the prophets? The only one who teaches this lie, that I know of, is Lucifer and perhaps you.

If they did not transgress the lower law they would of continued to live in a terrestrial state for all eternity without opportunity to progress.

Just like God lives in a celestial state "without opportunity to progress?"

That is sheer nonsense.

Adam and Eve had, and those who will live in the Millennium will have, infinite opportunities to progress in a Terrestrial state.

Why? Because eyes are opened by resisting temptation just as much as by yielding to it.

So it is never necessary to yield to any temptation to open one’s eyes. Jesus had his eyes opened by resisting temptations, not by yielding to them, even though he had the same veil over his mind that Adam and Eve had.

This is how God intended Adam and Eve should have opened their eyes, if they had listened to him.

I say it again: If Adam and Eve resisted the temptation sufficiently, their eyes would have begun to be opened sufficiently to keep the first commandment, which would have opened them completely.

“There is no other way” was a lie of the devil, which you, and many others bought. Consider the source of it. It was the devil who said it, and you are repeating it.

G_d never does anything necessarily, there is a reason the tree of knowledge was placed in the garden - it is the only way to gain the knowledge.

Yes, resisting the temptation to partake of it was the proper way to gain the knowledge.

No-- Again G_d gave two contradictory commandment

Already answered that in detail. Read the OP for the answer. If God gave contradictory commandments he would have ceased to be God that very moment.

they did not sin only transgressed a lower law and were blessed for their decisions.

If they were “blessed” for their decision, and did everything right, then there was no fall, and no real need for the atonement. After all, what need is there to redeem those who did everything right?

Your interpretation of 2 Nephi 2:25 and out of context of the scripture and teaching of other scriptures and the prophets and you know it.

No, it is the correct interpretation in perfect harmony with the commandments which God gave to Adam and Eve in the garden.

He did not command so

Really?

• And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. ( Moses 4:23 )

it was not G_d's plan that they should have children while in the garden as they were like children and had no capacity to have children in the garden,

Already answered this nonsense in detail. Please re-read the OP, or even this post.

Thanks.

[Spaced_Out]

it was not G_d's plan that they should have children while in the garden as they were like children and had no capacity to have children in the garden,

Already answered this nonsense in detail. Please re-read the OP, or even this post.

Thanks.

You walk in darkness in daylight.
"And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."(Moses 5:11)

[LoveIsTruth]

Is there any real value to arguing over allegories or mythology (the unprovable or possibly even unknowable) besides entertainment? It's kind of like arguing over movies or comic books. Like whether Jar Jar Binks is a Sith Lord...

Faith is that which is hoped for but not seen (not provable, not really arguable); so why argue when you won't really KNOW until after the trial of your faith is over?

First of all, that video is brilliant. Here is another one in more detail

Thanks for that. I did not know it, but it makes perfect sense! Wow George Lucas is much more devious and brilliant than I ever imagined! Wow!

Secondly, this is not just vain arguing about the fall, it is key because it is based on a very simple and profound formula:

Good = keeping the commandments
Evil/Bad = violating/transgressing the commandments.

This formula, if consistently applied reveals powerful gems of truth otherwise obscured.

So I am not guessing here. I know for sure that there was a better way for Adam and Eve, and they chose the lesser way, the way of transgression, which was the reason for their fall.

[LoveIsTruth]

it was not G_d's plan that they should have children while in the garden as they were like children and had no capacity to have children in the garden,

Already answered this nonsense in detail. Please re-read the OP, or even this post.

Thanks.

You walk in darkness in daylight.
"And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."(Moses 5:11)

Still does not mean they COULD not have children in the garden, but (in context), that they WOULD not, as in choice.

Again, the correct meaning would be this:

• "We would not have posterity, nor know good and evil without a transgression, because we were deceived ('The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.' (Moses 4:19)). But now that we know better, and understand the error we have made, we rejoice in our merciful redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."

Thanks for posting.

[Spaced_Out]

There is no other way to get knowledge but by partaking of the tree of knowledge and becoming mortal.

G_d is the same yesterday today and forever the same pattern of the garden of eden is repeated throughout all eternity. It is taught as such in the Temple.
Why would some be subject to mortality and others not ie on other worlds they would progress from a terrestrial state to salvation, but on this earth we have to progress from telestrial state it would not be fair and make God changeable.

Again not all can abide a terrestrial state, so we are all given the oppotunity to chose for ourselves.. The telestrial state we are in is not hell as you propose, many make it so of their own free will. In a terrestrial order one does not die so you would live for ever. The plan from the beginning was that we would suffer physical death and there will be a need for a resurrection. Yes Jesus needed to suffer and die and those that did it will be punished just like Adam needed to fall to the telestrial state and Satan was punished for it. If you cant understand the fall of Adam you cant understand the Atonement they were both necessities. You can't have the one without the other.

There is only one person that has been able to progress without sin and the is the Saviour, to force everyone else to progress without sin was Satan's plan and that is what you are proposing by saying there was another way.

Only in a telestrial state do we suffer spiritual death ie, separation from G_d. G_d walked and talked with Adam in the garden of eden. One of the main purposes of the plan of salvation is to live separate from G_d so we can choose for ourselves outside of his presence that can't be achieved in a terrestrial state. Like sending a child to school and they have to stand on their own two legs. If you cant understand this - you are unable to understand yourself and the key purpose of life.

In the preexistence 1/3 of the host of heaven did not want to come down to earth and suffer spiritual death and mortality so rebelled and were kicked out of Heaven is is how the plan of salvation was designed, if you don't like it tough luck you should not have agreed to it in the preexistence as you are on this earth by choice knowing full well the fall had occurred.

Lorenzo Snow was baptized a short time later and began his service in the Church. In the spring of 1840 he was called to serve a mission in the British Isles. Before his departure he was in the home of a Church member who was preaching a sermon on the parable of the laborers in the vineyard. (See Matt. 20:1–16.) According to Elder Snow, “While attentively listening to his explanation, the Spirit of the Lord rested mightily upon me—the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I saw as clear as the sun at noonday, with wonder and astonishment, the pathway of God and man. I formed the following couplet which expresses the revelation, as it was shown me, and explains Father Smith’s dark saying to me at a blessing meeting in the Kirtland Temple, prior to my baptism. …

“As man now is, God once was:”

“As God now is, man may be.”

“I felt this to be a sacred communication, which I related to no one except my sister Eliza, until I reached England, when in a confidential private conversation with President Brigham Young, in Manchester, I related to him this extraordinary manifestation.” (Eliza R. Snow, pp. 46–47; italics added. Brigham Young was President of the Quorum of the Twelve at the time.)

President Snow’s son LeRoi later told that the Prophet Joseph Smith confirmed the validity of the revelation Elder Snow had received: “Soon after his return from England, in January, 1843, Lorenzo Snow related to the Prophet Joseph Smith his experience in Elder Sherwood’s home. This was in a confidential interview in Nauvoo. The Prophet’s reply was: ‘Brother Snow, that is a true gospel doctrine, and it is a revelation from God to you.’” (LeRoi C. Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, p. 656.)

The Prophet Joseph Smith himself publicly taught the doctrine the following year, 1844, during a funeral sermon of Elder King Follett: “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! … It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did.” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1938, pp. 345–46.)

Once the Prophet Joseph had taught the doctrine publicly, Elder Snow also felt free to publicly teach it, and it was a common theme of his teachings throughout his life. About ten years before his death, while serving as the President of the Quorum of the Twelve, President Snow incorporated his original couplet into a longer poem. He addressed the poem to the Apostle Paul, who had written the following to the Philippian Saints:

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

“Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (Philip. 2:5–6.)

Part of the poem reads:

The boy, like to his father grown,
Has but attained unto his own;
To grow to sire from state of son,
Is not ’gainst Nature’s course to run.
A son of God, like God to be,
Would not be robbing Deity.
(As cited in LeRoi C. Snow, p. 661.)

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it was not G_d's plan that they should have children while in the garden as they were like children and had no capacity to have children in the garden,

Already answered this nonsense in detail. Please re-read the OP, or even this post.

Thanks.

You walk in darkness in daylight.
"And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."(Moses 5:11)

Still does not mean they COULD not have children in the garden, but (in context), that they WOULD not, as in choice.

Again, the correct meaning would be this:

• "We would not have posterity, nor know good and evil without a transgression, because we were deceived ('The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.' (Moses 4:19)). But now that we know better, and understand the error we have made, we rejoice in our merciful redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."

Thanks for posting.

Your interpretation is wild speculation at best and not in line with other scriptures and teachings of the Apostles and prophets.
We have are not told how long Adam and ever were in the garden, but we are told there was no birth or death and they were as children naked and did not know it - to speculate that somehow over time they wold of gained that knowledge is false.

There is no bitter in a terrestrial state and no thorns and no pain - how can one learn to appreciate the good without experiencing the bitter and pain. Even Jesus learnt obedience by the pain he suffered. It is imperative that we live in a telestrial state to gain that knowledge of pain and sweet and sour., you make a mockery of G_d and his plan by proposing another method like Satan who proposed another way.

Hebrews 5:8
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

55 And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.
56 And it is given unto them to know good from evil; wherefore they are agents unto themselves, and I have given unto you another law and commandment.

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my firstborn in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

[Spaced_Out]

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Three years before Adam’s death, his righteous posterity gathered at Adam-ondi-Ahman to receive his blessing. “And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel” (D&C 107:54). It is no wonder, then, that we seek to understand Adam’s role in the Fall and the nature of the consequences that came from eating the forbidden fruit. If we correctly understand the role of Adam and Eve, we will realize that those who have labeled them sinners responsible for the universal depravity of the human family are misguided. The truth is that Adam and Eve opened the door for us to come into mortality, a step essential to our eternal progress.
A.
Conditions in the Garden of Eden were different from those of mortality.

1. Before the Fall the earth and all things upon it existed in a spiritual state (see 2 Nephi 2:22; Moses 3:5–7).
2. Adam and Eve were in the presence of God in the Garden of Eden (see Moses 4:14; Genesis 3:8).
3. Adam and Eve would have had no children had they continued to live in the Garden of Eden (see 2 Nephi 2:23; Moses 5:11).
4. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence, not understanding good and evil and having neither joy nor misery (see 2 Nephi 2:23; Moses 5:11).
B.
Adam and Eve brought about the Fall by their own choice.

1. Adam and Eve were commanded not to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (see Genesis 2:15–17; Moses 3:15–17; Abraham 5:11–13).
2. Eve was beguiled by Satan and partook of the fruit (see Genesis 3:1–6; Moses 4:5–12; 1 Timothy 2:14).
3. Eve gave the fruit to Adam, and he partook (see Genesis 3:6; Moses 4:12).
4. After Adam and Eve partook of the fruit, the Lord told them the conditions of mortality that would confront them (see Genesis 3:16–19; Moses 4:22–25).
C.
The Fall brought about significant changes for Adam and Eve’s posterity.

1. The Lord placed cherubim and a flaming sword to guard the tree of life and to prevent Adam and Eve from partaking of it (see Genesis 3:24; Moses 4:31; Alma 12:21–23; 42:2–4).
2. Adam and Eve were driven out of the Garden of Eden (see Genesis 3:24; Moses 4:31).
3. After the Fall Adam, Eve, and all their posterity became subject to physical death (see Moses 6:48; Alma 12:22–24; 1 Corinthians 15:21–22).
4. Adam and Eve were required to support themselves by their own labors (see Genesis 3:19; Moses 4:25; 5:1).
5. Adam and his family were shut out of God’s presence, thereby suffering a spiritual death (see Alma 42:6–7, 9; D&C 29:40–41; Moses 5:4; 6:49).
6. Adam and Eve began to have children (see Moses 4:22; 5:2–3, 11; Genesis 3:16).
7. Pain and sorrow were introduced as part of mortality (see Genesis 3:16; Moses 6:48).
8. Fallen man became carnal, sensual, and devilish (see Alma 41:11; Ether 3:2; D&C 20:20).
9. By being exposed to evil, Adam and Eve could recognize and embrace good (see Moses 5:10–11; 2 Nephi 2:11).
D.
The Fall was a purposeful step in God’s plan of salvation.

1. For our agency to function, it was necessary that Satan be allowed to tempt us (see D&C 29:39–40).
2. Adam’s fall gave him and his posterity the opportunity to obtain the joy that comes from choosing good over evil (see 2 Nephi 2:25–27; Moses 5:10–11).
3. If Adam and Eve had not transgressed, they would have lived forever in innocence, without children, thereby frustrating God’s plan of salvation (see 2 Nephi 2:22–24; Moses 5:10–11).
4. Death is a necessary part of God’s plan (see 2 Nephi 9:6; Alma 42:6–8).
E.
In this life we are subject to enticements of the flesh and the Spirit.

1. The flesh subjects us to enticements toward physical gratification (see Romans 8:5–8; 2 Nephi 2:29).
2. Only by yielding to the enticings of the Spirit can we overcome the inclinations of the flesh (see Mosiah 3:19).
Supporting Statements
A.
Conditions in the Garden of Eden were different from those of mortality.

•“Adam had a spiritual body until mortality came upon him through the violation of the law under which he was living, but he also had a physical body of flesh and bones.
“… Now what is a spiritual body? It is one that is quickened by spirit and not by blood. …

“… When Adam was in the Garden of Eden, he was not subject to death. There was no blood in his body and he could have remained there forever. This is true of all the other creations” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:76–77).

•“He [Adam] had knowledge, of course. He could speak. He could converse. There were many things he could be taught and was taught; but under the conditions in which he was living at that time it was impossible for him to visualize or understand the power of good and evil. He did not know what pain was. He did not know what sorrow was; and a thousand other things that have come to us in this life that Adam did not know in the Garden of Eden and could not understand and would not have known had he remained there” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:107–8).
B.
Adam and Eve brought about the Fall by their own choice.

•“I’m very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn’t a sin. … What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do; and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to the command God gave to Adam. [Moses 3:16–17.]
“Now this is the way I interpret that: The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here, then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here, then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself, and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it, you will die.

“I see a great difference between transgressing the law and committing a sin” (Joseph Fielding Smith, “Fall—Atonement—Resurrection—Sacrament,” in Charge to Religious Educators, 124).

•“The devil in tempting Eve told a truth when he said unto her that when she should eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they should become as Gods. He told the truth in telling that, but he accompanied it with a lie as he always does. He never tells the complete truth. He said that they should not die. The Father had said that they should die. The devil had to tell a lie in order to accomplish his purposes; but there was some truth in his statement. Their eyes were opened. They had a knowledge of good and evil just as the Gods have” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:16).
•“Adam and Eve were chosen to come here as the primal parents of humanity. And they were placed in the Garden of Eden where there was no death and we read in the scriptures that they could have lived in that Garden forever, but not under the most favorable circumstances. For there, although they were in the presence of God, they were deprived of certain knowledge and understanding in a condition where they could not understand clearly things that were necessary for them to know. Therefore, it became essential to their salvation and to ours that their nature should be changed. The only way it could be changed was by the violation of the law under which they were at that time. Mortality could not come without violation of that law and mortality was essential, a step towards our exaltation. Therefore, Adam partook of the forbidden fruit, forbidden in a rather peculiar manner for it is the only place in all the history where we read that the Lord forbade something and yet said, ‘Nevertheless thou mayest choose for thyself.’ He never said that of any sin. I do not look upon Adam’s fall as a sin, although it was a transgression of the law. It had to be. And Adam came under a different law. The temporal law. And he became subject to death. The partaking of that fruit created blood in his body and that blood became the life-giving influence of mortality” (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Atonement of Jesus Christ, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year [25 Jan. 1955], 2).
•“The adversary, Lucifer, through the serpent, beguiled Eve and deceived her and induced her to eat of the forbidden fruit.
“It was not so with Adam. … He knew that unless he did partake there would be an eternal separation between him and the partner that God had given to him, so he transgressed the law. … Because had he not partaken of the fruit, they would have been eternally separated” (Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:24).

•“Adam voluntarily, and with full knowledge of the consequences, partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that men might be. … For his service we owe Adam an immeasurable debt of gratitude” (Marion G. Romney, The Message of Seminary and Institute Teachers [address to seminary and institute employees, 13 July 1966], 5).
C.
The Fall brought about significant changes for Adam and Eve’s posterity.

•“When Adam, our first parent, partook of the forbidden fruit, transgressed the law of God, and became subject unto Satan, he was banished from the presence of God, and was thrust out into outer spiritual darkness. This was the first death. Yet living, he was dead—dead to God, dead to light and truth, dead spiritually; cast out from the presence of God; communication between the Father and the Son was cut off. He was as absolutely thrust out from the presence of God as was Satan and the hosts that followed him. That was spiritual death. But the Lord said that he would not suffer Adam nor his posterity to come to the temporal death until they should have the means by which they might be redeemed from the first death, which is spiritual” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 432).
•“Not subject to death when he [Adam] was placed upon the earth, there had to come a change in his body through the partaking of this element—whatever you want to call it, fruit—that brought blood into his body; and blood became the life of the body instead of spirit. And blood has in it the seeds of death, some mortal element. Mortality was created through the eating of the forbidden fruit” (Smith, “Fall—Atonement—Resurrection—Sacrament,” 125).
•“When Adam came into this world, he was not subject to death. He was immortal. He could have lived forever. Had he remained in the Garden of Eden and not transgressed the law that had been given to him, he and Eve would have been there yet. …
“… Adam had not passed through a resurrection when he was in the Garden of Eden, and having not passed through a resurrection, spirit and body could be separated by the violation of the law. And the Lord provided the law so it could happen, because the mortal estate in which we find ourselves is absolutely necessary to our exaltation” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:91).

•“The ‘natural man’ is the ‘earthy man’ who has allowed rude animal passions to overshadow his spiritual inclinations” (Spencer W. Kimball, in Conference Report, Oct. 1974, 161; or Ensign, Nov. 1974, 112).
•“This being ‘conceived in sin’ [Moses 6:55], as I understand it, is only that they are in the midst of sin. They come into the world where sin is prevalent, and it will enter into their hearts, but it will lead them ‘to taste the bitter, that they may know to prize the good.’” (George Q. Morris, in Conference Report, Apr. 1958, 38).
D.
The Fall was a purposeful step in God’s plan of salvation.

•“We came into this world to die. That was understood before we came here. It is part of the plan, all discussed and arranged long before men were placed upon the earth. When Adam was sent into this world, it was with the understanding that he would violate a law, transgress a law, in order to bring to pass this mortal condition which we find ourselves in today” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:66).
•“Did they [Adam and Eve] come out in direct opposition to God and to his government? No. But they transgressed a command of the Lord, and through that transgression sin came into the world. The Lord knew they would do this, and he had designed that they should” (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, 103).
•“The first step in salvation of man is the laws of eternal and self-existent principles. Spirits are eternal. At the first organization in heaven we were all present, and saw the Savior chosen and appointed and the plan of salvation made, and we sanctioned it” (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 181).
•“When Adam was driven out of the Garden of Eden, the Lord passed a sentence upon him. Some people have looked upon that sentence as being a dreadful thing. It was not; it was a blessing. …
“In order for mankind to obtain salvation and exaltation it is necessary for them to obtain bodies in this world, and pass through the experiences and schooling that are found only in mortality. …

“The fall of man came as a blessing in disguise, and was the means of furthering the purposes of the Lord in the progress of man, rather than a means of hindering them” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:113–14).

•“If we cannot be good, except as we resist and overcome evil, then evil must be present to be resisted.
“So this earth life is set up according to true principles, and these conditions that followed the transgression [of Adam] were not, in the usual sense, penalties that were inflicted upon us. All these … that seem to be sad inflictions of punishment, sorrow, and trouble are in the end not that. They are blessings. We have attained a knowledge of good and evil, the power to prize the sweet, to become agents unto ourselves, the power to obtain redemption and eternal life. These things had their origin in this transgression. The Lord has set the earth up so we have to labor if we are going to live, which preserves us from the curse of idleness and indolence; and though the Lord condemns us to death—mortal death—it is one of the greatest blessings that comes to us here because it is the doorway to immortality, and we can never attain immortality without dying.

“So these are all real blessings. We come to the earth with all these conditions arranged as they are so that we have to struggle constantly against evil, struggle to preserve our lives, struggle for everything of true value—that is the thing for us to understand—this is the course of life that is most desirable, and for our good. We have no need to find fault with these conditions. The Lord has ordained them all for our welfare and happiness” (Morris, in Conference Report, Apr. 1958, 39).

E.
In this life we are subject to enticements of the flesh and the Spirit.

•“Man is a spiritual being, a soul, and at some period of his life everyone is possessed with an irresistible desire to know his relationship to the infinite. He realizes that he is not just a physical object that is to be tossed for a short time from bank to bank, only to be submerged finally in the everflowing stream of life. There is something within him which urges him to rise above himself, to control his environment, to master the body and all things physical and live in a higher and more beautiful world” (David O. McKay, in Conference Report, Oct. 1928, 37).
•“Man has a dual nature; one, related to the earthly or animal life; the other, akin to the divine. Whether a man remains satisfied within what we designate the animal world, satisfied with what the animal world will give him, yielding without effort to the whim of his appetites and passions and slipping farther and farther into the realm of indulgence, or whether, through self-mastery, he rises toward intellectual, moral, and spiritual enjoyments depends upon the kind of choice he makes every day, nay, every hour of his life” (David O. McKay, Gospel Ideals, 347–48).

[Spaced_Out]

Yes he broke the lower law to keep the higher law, not so hard to understand.

That is lunacy. In fact, he broke the higher law and the lower law together.

In fact he who keeps the higher law does NOT break the lower.
Example:

"Lower" fundamental law: "Thou shall not steal"
Higher law: "Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again." (Luke 6:30)

Adam and Eve, however did something entirely different. They transgressed the higher law, under pretext of keeping a lower law, which actually was unnecessary and wrong, because there was a better way, a way defined by perfectly harmonious, non-self-contradictory, and perfectly doable commandments that God gave to them.

Adam and Eve brought about the Fall by their own choice.

•“I’m very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn’t a sin. … What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do; and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to the command God gave to Adam. [Moses 3:16–17.]
“Now this is the way I interpret that: The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here, then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here, then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself, and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it, you will die.

“I see a great difference between transgressing the law and committing a sin” (Joseph Fielding Smith, “Fall—Atonement—Resurrection—Sacrament,” in Charge to Religious Educators, 124).

[LoveIsTruth]

There is no other way to get knowledge but by partaking of the tree of knowledge and becoming mortal.

That's what the devil said. And it is contrary to the commandments of God; therefore it is wrong.

Why would some be subject to mortality and others not ie on other worlds they would progress from a terrestrial state to salvation, but on this earth we have to progress from telestrial state

Not just on other worlds, but on this one. In the Millennium children will be born into a Terrestrial state, not a telestial, and they will live out their lives in the Terrestrial state, and "they would progress from a terrestrial state to salvation," without any Telestial state, precisely as the scripture says they "shall grow up without sin unto salvation?" (D&C 45:58). It will happen on THIS planet.

it would not be fair and make God changeable.

It will be perfectly fair, because those world's did not fall like this one did. And even this world, in the Millennium will be restored to the Terrestrial state that God gave Adam and Eve to begin with.

As people are different, so are worlds. Should not be a shock.

In a terrestrial order one does not die so you would live for ever. The plan from the beginning was that we would suffer physical death and there will be a need for a resurrection.

The plan from the beginning was that there should be no death. Adam and Eve did not accept that plan, and therefore fell, together with their posterity.

How do I know what the plan was from the beginning? Simple. God has commanded it.

And it is because of the transgression of the commandment that a different plan was put into operation, -- plan B. God is perfectly prepared for anything. But it does not mean that Adam and Eve did not make a mistake because they rejected plan A,-- a better plan for more obedient people.

But the good news is that plan A is still attainable through Christ. Hence in the Millennium on this world, "there shall be no sorrow because there is no death." ( D&C 101:30 )

God said it. Why do you not believe him?

Yes Jesus needed to suffer and die and those that did it will be punished just like Adam needed to fall to the telestrial state and Satan was punished for it.

Don't you think that Adam was punished too? "The earth shall be cursed for thy sake. Briers and thorns shall it bring unto thee to torment and afflict man."

If you cant understand the fall of Adam you cant understand the Atonement they were both necessities. You can't have the one without the other.

Right. And if Adam and Eve did everything right, there was no fall, which makes atonement unnecessary.

There is only one person that has been able to progress without sin and the is the Saviour,

What about those that "shall grow up without sin unto salvation?" (D&C 45:58)

to force everyone else to progress without sin was Satan's plan and that is what you are proposing by saying there was another way.

Forcing is not the same as saying "there was another way." Don't you see? They were free to choose precisely because there was another way. If there was no other way, they would not be free to choose. So it was Satan who was trying to force them by lying that "there was no other way."

Only in a telestrial state do we suffer spiritual death ie, separation from G_d. G_d walked and talked with Adam in the garden of eden. One of the main purposes of the plan of salvation is to live separate from G_d so we can choose for ourselves outside of his presence that can't be achieved in a terrestrial state.

So how will then children choose in the Millennium? They will be born in a Terrestrial state where Christ will be reigning personally upon the earth. Yet they will still be free to choose, even in a Terrestrial state. Hence we are told there will be those who will deny him at the end of the Millennium.

• "And again, verily, verily, I say unto you that when the thousand years are ended, and men again begin to deny their God, then will I spare the earth but for a little season;" ( D&C 29:23 )

So even in a Terrestrial state people are free to choose. In fact they are free to choose in any state, even in heaven. Hence Lucifer who rebelled in heaven, for which he was cast out.

In the preexistence 1/3 of the host of heaven did not want to come down to earth and suffer spiritual death

Spiritual death is optional.

• "For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing" (Moroni 8:23) "

Thus not all who come to mortality experience spiritual death. Only they who rebel against God suffer such death, and cannot be forgiven unless they repent.

[LoveIsTruth]

Your interpretation is wild speculation at best and not in line with other scriptures and teachings of the Apostles and prophets.
We have are not told how long Adam and ever were in the garden, but we are told there was no birth or death and they were as children naked and did not know it - to speculate that somehow over time they wold of gained that knowledge is false.

I do not speculate. This is an inescapable, necessary conclusion from the revealed word of God, because if you suppose the opposite, it would contradict what God has said, and therefore make him a liar.

There is no bitter in a terrestrial state and no thorns and no pain - how can one learn to appreciate the good without experiencing the bitter and pain. Even Jesus learnt obedience by the pain he suffered. It is imperative that we live in a telestrial state to gain that knowledge of pain and sweet and sour.,

People in the Millennium will live in a Terrestrial state, not Telestial. So your statement is incorrect in the point of fact.

Did you even read the Opening Post (OP)? I have a section there "No Pain No Game" misunderstanding" where I have answered this very question.

you make a mockery of G_d and his plan by proposing another method like Satan who proposed another way.

You are confused. It was God who commanded a better way; and it was Satan, who like you, said that "there was NO other way."

[LoveIsTruth]

“I see a great difference between transgressing the law and committing a sin” (Joseph Fielding Smith, “Fall—Atonement—Resurrection—Sacrament,” in Charge to Religious Educators, 124).

Did you even read the OP? I explicitly said, multiple times, that Adam was incapable of committing sin until AFTER his eyes were opened.

Did you miss that?

[Sarah]

It is true that children die now without being tested in a telestial world, as we also assume children in the millennium will not be tested in the same way. I've wondered about this and have come to the conclusion that even though these individuals may not physically experience mortality, they can still spiritually experience it should they choose to feel and comprehend what others went through. I don't know, but I feel like we will all be able to feel what others go through should we choose to feel that, and we can learn from that. Christ descended below all things so he could comprehend all suffering and sin, and I believe that while there are those who don't have the chance to experience a telestial body, I believe He had to. He had to descend that low, and die, and be resurrected. So in a sense we are all willing participants in a plan that had to be played out this way and partake of this mortal bitter cup.

[LoveIsTruth]

It is true that children die now without being tested in a telestial world, as we also assume children in the millennium will not be tested in the same way. I've wondered about this and have come to the conclusion that even though these individuals may not physically experience mortality, they can still spiritually experience it should they choose to feel and comprehend what others went through. I don't know, but I feel like we will all be able to feel what others go through should we choose to feel that, and we can learn from that. Christ descended below all things so he could comprehend all suffering and sin, and I believe that while there are those who don't have the chance to experience a telestial body, I believe He had to. He had to descend that low, and die, and be resurrected. So in a sense we are all willing participants in a plan that had to be played out this way and partake of this mortal bitter cup.

He "had to" because Adam and Eve made a mistake and did not do "everything right" in the garden.

That is the whole point of the article.

[Alaris]

Thank you for your post Lovestruth. I apologize if this was explained already and I missed it, but if Adam and Eve didn't fall to a telestial state, would there have been no need for a Savior?

[LoveIsTruth]

Thank you for your post Lovestruth. I apologize if this was explained already and I missed it, but if Adam and Eve didn't fall to a telestial state, would there have been no need for a Savior?

If Adam and Eve did not fall to a telestial state, and remained in a Terrestrial state, similar to what will be on the earth during the Millennium, they could possibly still need a Savior because they could make other mistakes and would need the power to correct them, which power comes only from the Savior.

So people in the Millennium, though living in a Terrestrial state, may still need a Savior, because whoever makes a mistake, however small in the eternity, cannot in principle, be saved on his own merit, because he has contradicted himself, though may be innocently, but still; and therefore they will need the power from the one who has never contradicted himself, i.e. Jesus, to be saved.

And yes, people in the Terrestrial state can still make mistakes, in fact they can even sin, like those who will rebel at the end of the Millennium.

So the short answer is: Everyone, in any state, who makes a mistake, however small or innocent that mistake may be, still needs a Savior to obtain salvation or eternal life.

[Alaris]

Interesting. So maybe other worlds in Jehovah's creation never fall below terrestrial while some do according to your theory?

[Robin Hood]

How did Adam and Eve fall to a Terrestrial state?
We know how they fell to the Tetestial, but the idea they were in a Terrestial state when that happened doesn't make sense.
They were created in the presence of God, they walked and talked with God on a regular and seemingly quite casual basis (and we know from scripture that the Terrestial Kingdom cannot abide the presence of the Father), and that they were immortal (whereas death does occur in a Terrestial world), and even their marriage was a Celestial marriage.
Surely their condition in the Garden was Celestial.
To suggest otherwise one must somehow insert an extra fall.