The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Locked
JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9832

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by JohnnyL »

http://gospelinsights.weebly.com/blog/t ... den-solved" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Ezra »

Truth is a interesting thing.

Some people believe something to be true. They see it as an ultimate truth. In doing so they have stopped their progression of understanding it in more depth.

Truth evolves in a way. I'm not saying it changes. But grows. Deepens. Widenes.

So many people believe they know the truth. And that's as far as they ever look.

That is how pride is such a horrible sin. It stops their progression or restricts their progression through thinking they know something or are something. I.e. If they Think they are a smart person education takes a back seat. Because they (are) already smart in their minds. They no longer seek to become it.

Humility in all things is the key to becoming like God. Because it keeps us teachable.

Thinking you know a truth stops you from looking deeper.

Truth resignates in us when we hear it. But that truth is not all there is.

2 nephi 28:30

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.


If you think you know a truth. And you think it's an ultimate truth. God will take away that knowledge from you.


The word sin in the bible is translated from 2 words as I understand. One is a word for an archery term meaning to miss the bulls eye.

When we believe truth to be an ultimate truth most likely we are at least hitting the target. But not the Bulls eye. We might not even be hitting the target but shooting in the right direction.

The spirit however will let us know we have just heard or thought something that gets us closer to reaching the Bulls eye. Even if we miss the target all together. The spirit is trying to guide us line upon line to that greater understanding as we become ready to understand it. As we perfect our aim.

The human condition is to believe we have found the Bulls eye. when we have no clue to what it even is.

I want to say to all on this forum. Including myself. Loveistruth spacedout robinhood me and so on. Everyone. Be thou humble. Don't close yourself of to learning a deeper truth by thinking you know.

Line upon Line stops working if you do. We end up stuck or worse regressing.

Did Adam and Eve sin? Maybe. Are you sinning by thinking you know? And isn't that a bigger issue? Something to think about.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Spaced_Out wrote:As you say Adam did not sin till after the fall then how can he be punished for his supposed transgression!!.
First of all it was not a "supposed," but actual transgression.
  • "And it came to pass that when Aaron saw that the king would believe his words, he began from the creation of Adam, reading the scriptures unto the king—how God created man after his own image, and that God gave him commandments, and that because of transgression, man had fallen."  (Alma 22:12)
Secondly, God, being a perfect parent, his punishments are a natural consequences of one's actions, so that they may learn. Just like children receive time-outs for misbehaving, even though they cannot sin.
Spaced_Out wrote:During the millennium children will have mortal bodies of blood and bone able to feel pain, hot and cold, sweet ans sour etc.. unlike Adam and Even in the garden their existence will be completely different.
I didn't say that Millennium is an exact copy of Eden, but it is fairly close, even to the point that the Lord said: "And there shall be no sorrow because there is no death." (D&C 101:29)

So, I'd say this is pretty close!
Spaced_Out wrote:They were unable to have children in the garden, you can twist the scriptures all you like that is the fact - they only had children after they left the garden.
There is not a single scripture that says that, for it would make God a liar. All the scriptures say they WOULD not (as in choice), not COULD NOT (as in physical impossibility).

So, technically it is you who are twisting the scriptures.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Spaced_Out wrote:Final comments; personally I feel greatly blessed by being in a telestial state - there is so much to learn and help one to improve. I had some back problems the last few months - just got it mostly sorted now it feels like I am floating when walking - you experience the pain then joy. Getting a headache from eating an ice cream too fast... I have learnt many great lessons from serous illnesses- ones progression is so much faster. Would not swap it for anything.

As quoted before even the master of the Universe learnt by suffering. And it is the same pattern how G_d received his knowledge. I would hate to go into the next life without experiencing these things, so much better to appreciate the good and glory of the eternal worlds.
You are laboring under misunderstanding that the righteous in a Terrestrial state are incapable of suffering.

That is not true.

They will suffer, for without suffering their cannot be a fullness of joy, but their suffering will not be caused by their transgressions, Just like Jesus suffering was not caused by his.

I already explained it in more detail in the ""No Pain No Game" misunderstanding" section of the OP.

Thanks.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

This logic is flawed, because it misses the fact that the commandment not to partake the fruit was given to both Adam and Eve, and therefore applied equally to both of them. So the theory in the link is incorrect.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Ezra wrote:Truth is a interesting thing.

Some people believe something to be true. They see it as an ultimate truth. In doing so they have stopped their progression of understanding it in more depth.

Truth evolves in a way. I'm not saying it changes. But grows. Deepens. Widenes.

So many people believe they know the truth. And that's as far as they ever look.

That is how pride is such a horrible sin. It stops their progression or restricts their progression through thinking they know something or are something. I.e. If they Think they are a smart person education takes a back seat. Because they (are) already smart in their minds. They no longer seek to become it.

Humility in all things is the key to becoming like God. Because it keeps us teachable.

Thinking you know a truth stops you from looking deeper.

Truth resignates in us when we hear it. But that truth is not all there is.

2 nephi 28:30

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.


If you think you know a truth. And you think it's an ultimate truth. God will take away that knowledge from you.


The word sin in the bible is translated from 2 words as I understand. One is a word for an archery term meaning to miss the bulls eye.

When we believe truth to be an ultimate truth most likely we are at least hitting the target. But not the Bulls eye. We might not even be hitting the target but shooting in the right direction.

The spirit however will let us know we have just heard or thought something that gets us closer to reaching the Bulls eye. Even if we miss the target all together. The spirit is trying to guide us line upon line to that greater understanding as we become ready to understand it. As we perfect our aim.

The human condition is to believe we have found the Bulls eye. when we have no clue to what it even is.

I want to say to all on this forum. Including myself. Loveistruth spacedout robinhood me and so on. Everyone. Be thou humble. Don't close yourself of to learning a deeper truth by thinking you know.

Line upon Line stops working if you do. We end up stuck or worse regressing.

Did Adam and Eve sin? Maybe. Are you sinning by thinking you know? And isn't that a bigger issue? Something to think about.
Truth is truth. And if you learn a deeper truth, it does not render the earlier truth false, it just adds to it.

Yes we should be humble. I agree with that. But we also must hold fast the truths which God has revealed to us.

I know what I know, and I make no apologies for it, but I thank God for giving me the knowledge. And if I should say "I don't know" what I do know, and what God has revealed to me, I would be a liar and would offend God.

Therefore, Ezra, hear this: I do know that God does not and cannot give self-contradictory commandments, or he will cease to be God. I do not apologize for this knowledge, but I declare it with absolute certainty, because I know it no less than I know that I am.

Deal with it.

Thanks for your comment.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
alaris wrote:Interesting. So maybe other worlds in Jehovah's creation never fall below terrestrial while some do according to your theory?
Yes. Just like some people are born in the Millennium and never go through a telestial state at all.
They are born with a mortal body of flesh and blood not like Adam and Even in the garden, And are able to sin and feel pain etc. like you posted men will again rebel in the Millennium and there will be a final war.
Adam and Eve in the garden were innocent as you posted and unable to sin. Not the same thing.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

Ezra wrote: Did Adam and Eve sin? Maybe. Are you sinning by thinking you know? And isn't that a bigger issue? Something to think about.
We are taught plainly in the scriptures and by modern day prophets and apostles and in the temple that it was no sin. Very basic point in the gospel to understand.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

A higher law always overrides a lesser law, Like we are taught that we should not buy on the Sabbath. The one Stake president that I worked with had an emergency in the stake. The stake had very large boundary many hundreds of miles so he purchased fuel for his car to go to the other end of the stake boundary to deal with a major problem. The laws are not in themselves contradictory but there is a higher law and a lesser law - like the ox is in the mire on the sabath. Doctors and medical professionals work on Sunday is that contradictory to the law. Thou shalt not kill but Abraham was commanded to offer his son as a sacrifice. It is a very common thing that one has to judge between two principles and commandments to keep the higher law.

A person in a ward that I was in wife had very serious complications with a pregnancy and the doctor put an alcohol drip into her her to save the child and the procedure worked despite the mother be becoming very drunk. Did she break the word of wisdom - two laws in apparent contradiction but what is the higher law............

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Spaced_Out wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:
alaris wrote:Interesting. So maybe other worlds in Jehovah's creation never fall below terrestrial while some do according to your theory?
Yes. Just like some people are born in the Millennium and never go through a telestial state at all.
They are born with a mortal body of flesh and blood not like Adam and Even in the garden, And are able to sin and feel pain etc. like you posted men will again rebel in the Millennium and there will be a final war.
Adam and Eve in the garden were innocent as you posted and unable to sin. Not the same thing.
Adam and Eve were unable to sin before their eyes were opened, not after. After their eyes were opened they would be just as accountable as we are, in the garden, or out.

The two Terrestrial states are similar enough, hence Joseph Smith said that "the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory,"
(Articles of Faith 1:10) alluding to the glory, and therefore state, similar to that of Eden.
    • When all that was promised the Saints will be given,
      And none will molest them from morn until ev'n,
      And earth will appear as the Garden of Eden,
      And Jesus will say to all Israel, "Come home."
      (Now Let Us Rejoice, LDS Hymns, 3)

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Robin Hood »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:How did Adam and Eve fall to a Terrestrial state?
We know how they fell to the Tetestial, but the idea they were in a Terrestial state when that happened doesn't make sense.
They were created in the presence of God, they walked and talked with God on a regular and seemingly quite casual basis (and we know from scripture that the Terrestial Kingdom cannot abide the presence of the Father), and that they were immortal (whereas death does occur in a Terrestial world), and even their marriage was a Celestial marriage.
Surely their condition in the Garden was Celestial.
To suggest otherwise one must somehow insert an extra fall.
I think you are confusing "state" with "kingdom." Terrestrial state is not a Terrestrial kingdom.

For example, we know that this earth is a celestial being and will become a celestial kingdom, because it fills the measure of its creation; just like there are celestial people, who live celestial laws (including celestial marriage) who may live in a telestial state as it is now on this earth.

And though this earth is currently in a telestial state, Heavenly Father appeared to Joseph Smith in a grove of trees, and on many other occasions. So God is able to appear where he likes. He doesn't only because he does not wish to hurt people who are not ready for his presence.

Also, in the Millennium the earth will be in a terrestrial state, which Joseph Smith calls "paradisiacal glory" (Articles of Faith 1:10), that is glory which is that of paradise, or that similar to the Garden of Eden; and of this Terrestrial, Millennial state the Lord said: "And there shall be no sorrow because there is no death," (D&C 101:29) because people will be changed from that Terrestrial state to the resurrected state in the blink of an eye, when they are ready to move on, and death as we know it will not exist for them.
I follow your logic to a certain extent, but it doesn't explain my concerns fully.

Firstly, the only being present in the sacred grove (apart from wildlife etc) was Joseph Smith. The Father and Son appeared in a vision. That is why it is called the "first vision". When the vision closed Joseph stated "when I came to myself I found myself laying on my back". It was a visionary experience and the Father and Son didn't set foot out of their Celestial abode.
Even when Christ appeared in the Kirtland Temple it was a vision rather than a visitation as Joseph clearly identified that Jesus was standing upon a gold structure etc. All of these are visions.

Secondly, the temple instruction we receive clearly identifies this earth, or the lone and dreary world, as the "Telestial Kingdom"..... not state. Listen carefully next time.

Thirdly, scripture states that Lucifer and his followers were thrust down to hell; and yet they are here amongst us. So whatever this earth is, it is clearly identified as hell. Is the Telestial Kingdom hell?

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Spaced_Out wrote:A higher law always overrides a lesser law, Like we are taught that we should not buy on the Sabbath. The one Stake president that I worked with had an emergency in the stake. The stake had very large boundary many hundreds of miles so he purchased fuel for his car to go to the other end of the stake boundary to deal with a major problem. The laws are not in themselves contradictory but there is a higher law and a lesser law - like the ox is in the mire on the sabath. Doctors and medical professionals work on Sunday is that contradictory to the law. Thou shalt not kill but Abraham was commanded to offer his son as a sacrifice. It is a very common thing that one has to judge between two principles and commandments to keep the higher law.

A person in a ward that I was in wife had very serious complications with a pregnancy and the doctor put an alcohol drip into her her to save the child and the procedure worked despite the mother be becoming very drunk. Did she break the word of wisdom - two laws in apparent contradiction but what is the higher law............
I think I already answered that on the example of Abraham, here.

The key here is that in the case of "higher law" one commandment supersedes and displaces an earlier commandment.

This was not the case in the garden. If it were not so, they would not have been punished for transgressing it and there would have been no fall, because they "would have done everything right."

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Ezra »

Spaced_Out wrote:
Ezra wrote: Did Adam and Eve sin? Maybe. Are you sinning by thinking you know? And isn't that a bigger issue? Something to think about.
We are taught plainly in the scriptures and by modern day prophets and apostles and in the temple that it was no sin. Very basic point in the gospel to understand.
You just proved my point of thinking you know all there is to know.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Robin Hood wrote:I follow your logic to a certain extent, but it doesn't explain my concerns fully.

Firstly, the only being present in the sacred grove (apart from wildlife etc) was Joseph Smith. The Father and Son appeared in a vision. That is why it is called the "first vision". When the vision closed Joseph stated "when I came to myself I found myself laying on my back". It was a visionary experience and the Father and Son didn't set foot out of their Celestial abode.
Even when Christ appeared in the Kirtland Temple it was a vision rather than a visitation as Joseph clearly identified that Jesus was standing upon a gold structure etc. All of these are visions.
In the temple movie God is often depicted as standing in the air too when in the garden. Besides of Enoch, Noah, and many others, it is written that they "walked with God" while yet in this fallen world.
  • "Behold my Spirit is upon you, wherefore all thy words will I justify; and the mountains shall flee before you, and the rivers shall turn from their course; and thou shalt abide in me, and I in you; therefore walk with me." (Moses 6:34)

    "And thus Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; for Noah was a just man, and perfect in his generation; and he walked with God, as did also his three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth." (Moses 8:27)
So "walking and talking with the Lord" is amply possible for the righteous in any state, celestial, terrestrial, or telestial.
Robin Hood wrote:Secondly, the temple instruction we receive clearly identifies this earth, or the lone and dreary world, as the "Telestial Kingdom"..... not state. Listen carefully next time.
I did. It says this represents the telestial kingdom. Of the real Telestial Kingdom, the prophet said that its glory was so great that if men had seen it they would be tempted to kill themselves just to get there.
  • "And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;" ( D&C 76:89 )
Robin Hood wrote:Thirdly, scripture states that Lucifer and his followers were thrust down to hell; and yet they are here amongst us. So whatever this earth is, it is clearly identified as hell. Is the Telestial Kingdom hell?
Hell is both a place and a state of mind. Satan appeared in the Garden of Eden after he was cast out for rebellion. Is Garden of Eden hell? No. Neither is this earth.

But they who end up in a Telestial kingdom often go through hell first, because of their sins. And it is the lowest kingdom of glory.

Hell is not a kingdom of glory. And yes, one can be in hell even while in the garden of Eden, like Satan was, if hell is inside them, hence is their misery, because they intentionally chose the path of self-contradiction.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Here is an interesting statement from one of the aliens who met with President Eisenhower:
  • "There is life on many other planets of which people on Earth know nothing. There are more solar systems for which man has not even given God credit. There are many beings that have never transgressed the perfect laws of God. Man does not possess the right to condemn the whole of God's creation because he himself has broken the perfect laws of God through disobedience."-- Valiant Thor

    ("Stranger at the Pentagon" by Dr. Frank E. Stranges, Ph.D. 1967, Inner Light Publications).
    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bb/stranges.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Spaced_Out wrote:A higher law always overrides a lesser law, Like we are taught that we should not buy on the Sabbath. The one Stake president that I worked with had an emergency in the stake. The stake had very large boundary many hundreds of miles so he purchased fuel for his car to go to the other end of the stake boundary to deal with a major problem. The laws are not in themselves contradictory but there is a higher law and a lesser law - like the ox is in the mire on the sabath. Doctors and medical professionals work on Sunday is that contradictory to the law. Thou shalt not kill but Abraham was commanded to offer his son as a sacrifice. It is a very common thing that one has to judge between two principles and commandments to keep the higher law.

A person in a ward that I was in wife had very serious complications with a pregnancy and the doctor put an alcohol drip into her her to save the child and the procedure worked despite the mother be becoming very drunk. Did she break the word of wisdom - two laws in apparent contradiction but what is the higher law............
I think I already answered that on the example of Abraham, here.

The key here is that in the case of "higher law" one commandment supersedes and displaces an earlier commandment.

This was not the case in the garden. If it were not so, they would not have been punished for transgressing it and there would have been no fall, because they "would have done everything right."
It was not a punishment being cast out but a blessing, read the scripture where eve blessed the day that they were cast out.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

Ezra wrote:
Spaced_Out wrote:
Ezra wrote: Did Adam and Eve sin? Maybe. Are you sinning by thinking you know? And isn't that a bigger issue? Something to think about.
We are taught plainly in the scriptures and by modern day prophets and apostles and in the temple that it was no sin. Very basic point in the gospel to understand.
You just proved my point of thinking you know all there is to know.
No it is a basic point, and as you said the basics are not superseded.

Ezra
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4357
Location: Not telling

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Ezra »

Spaced_Out wrote:
Ezra wrote:
Spaced_Out wrote:
Ezra wrote: Did Adam and Eve sin? Maybe. Are you sinning by thinking you know? And isn't that a bigger issue? Something to think about.
We are taught plainly in the scriptures and by modern day prophets and apostles and in the temple that it was no sin. Very basic point in the gospel to understand.
You just proved my point of thinking you know all there is to know.
No it is a basic point, and as you said the basics are not superseded.
??

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Spaced_Out wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:I think I already answered that on the example of Abraham, here.

The key here is that in the case of "higher law" one commandment supersedes and displaces an earlier commandment.

This was not the case in the garden. If it were not so, they would not have been punished for transgressing it and there would have been no fall, because they "would have done everything right."
It was not a punishment being cast out but a blessing, read the scripture where eve blessed the day that they were cast out.
Really? Let's see:
  • "Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception. In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
    And unto Adam, I, the Lord God, said: Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the fruit of the tree of which I commanded thee, saying—Thou shalt not eat of it, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
    Thorns also, and thistles shall it bring forth to thee [to torment and afflict man], and thou shalt eat the herb of the field.
    By the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, until thou shalt return unto the ground—for thou shalt surely die—for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou wast, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Moses 4:22-25)
And to be sure that it was a punishment, look at this context. If Adam was not punished, the following scripture makes no sense:
  • "And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls.
    Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever." (Mosiah 3:25-26)
Moreover, the scriptures say there was an actual "curse of Adam." (Moroni 8:8)

If you do "everything right," as you assert Adam and Eve did, you get blessings, not cursings.

And if they "did everything right" and made no mistake there is no need for an atonement either. So you are thoroughly mistaken.

Also, you need to learn that you get no blessings for transgressing the commandments.

Ever.

Only cursings. It is important that you learn it as soon as possible.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Only cursings. It is important that you learn it as soon as possible.
It is the great plan of happiness and a blessing as was agreed in the preexistence propr to the foundations of the world and the same plan all other worlds have used. Blessing to experiencing mortality and a blessing we had to work for as only those who kept their first estate would get blessing. A blessing we had to earn and 1/3 did not receive that blessing. Great blessing to experience pain and joy and life and have knowledge that was not available in the garden. One cant experience true joy or gladness without having been in mortality.

Moses 5:11
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

2 Nephi 2:25
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Spaced_Out wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:
Only cursings. It is important that you learn it as soon as possible.
It is the great plan of happiness and a blessing as was agreed in the preexistence propr to the foundations of the world and the same plan all other worlds have used. Blessing to experiencing mortality and a blessing we had to work for as only those who kept their first estate would get blessing. A blessing we had to earn and 1/3 did not receive that blessing. Great blessing to experience pain and joy and life and have knowledge that was not available in the garden. One cant experience true joy or gladness without having been in mortality.

Moses 5:11
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

2 Nephi 2:25
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.
You are severely confused.

You are confusing truth and error.

The great plan of happiness is in keeping the commandments, not in transgressing them. Learn the difference.

Pain and suffering do not need to come through your own transgressions. That is the whole point, and you have missed it.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

The only other plan was Satan's that is the same as what you are proposing. Those that did not want pain and suffering started the war in heaven over the issue and you are continuing the same war on earth proposing a different plan. I must give you credit for your persistence - but the war over the other plan was lost in the preexistence it is time you conceded defeat and accept the great plan of happiness.

The plan is to be tempted outside of the presence of G_d, and have the right to choose if there was not possible to sin then there is no real choice.
Yes pain and suffering and having to work by the sweat of your brow was the plan. Adam and Eve were in the garden and experienced both existences, and after been cast out of the garden and receiving knowledge rejoiced and were glad for the telestrial and mortal existence and opportunity for progression that was not available in the garden prior to the fall. Take the truth from them that experienced both existences and rejoice in the opportunity this life offers.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

Mortality at it's best..esp the fruit ninja at the end. This is why we need to live in so called fallen state, to gain experienced that can be achieved no other way.

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Robin Hood »

LoveIsTruth wrote:Here is an interesting statement from one of the aliens who met with President Eisenhower:
  • "There is life on many other planets of which people on Earth know nothing. There are more solar systems for which man has not even given God credit. There are many beings that have never transgressed the perfect laws of God. Man does not possess the right to condemn the whole of God's creation because he himself has broken the perfect laws of God through disobedience."-- Valiant Thor

    ("Stranger at the Pentagon" by Dr. Frank E. Stranges, Ph.D. 1967, Inner Light Publications).
    http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bb/stranges.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What nonsense!

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Spaced_Out wrote:The only other plan was Satan's that is the same as what you are proposing. Those that did not want pain and suffering started the war in heaven over the issue and you are continuing the same war on earth proposing a different plan. I must give you credit for your persistence - but the war over the other plan was lost in the preexistence it is time you conceded defeat and accept the great plan of happiness.
I proposed nothing of the sort, and in fact said the exact opposite.

There were infinite opportunities for pain without the fall.

You do not have to have your own transgressions to obtain pain, you get your pain because of the transgressions of others. That was the better path God offered Adam and Eve, and that is precisely what Jesus did.

You are both confused as well as seemingly incapable to understand plain language as it is written.

Go to the OP and read again "No Pain No Game" misunderstanding section.
Spaced_Out wrote:The plan is to be tempted outside of the presence of G_d, and have the right to choose if there was not possible to sin then there is no real choice.
Again, you seem incapable of understanding plain English.

Adam and Eve were tempted IN the garden, and they could sin after their eyes were opened, BOTH in the garden or out. So the choice ALWAYS existed, in the garden or out, and they chose wrong.

That is the essence of the fall which you deny, and with it the need for the atonement.

I ask you again, what is the need for the atonement, if Adam and Eve did everything right in the garden?

If they made no mistake they need no atonement.
Spaced_Out wrote:Yes pain and suffering and having to work by the sweat of your brow was the plan. Adam and Eve were in the garden and experienced both existences, and after been cast out of the garden and receiving knowledge rejoiced and were glad for the telestrial and mortal existence and opportunity for progression that was not available in the garden prior to the fall.
The whole point you are missing is that the same opportunities and more were available without the fall. That's why God had commanded them not to fall. They fell against his commandment.

I have proven it point by point, and you gave no reason to prove otherwise, except to pretend that I did not say it. Learn to read and learn to think my friend. And yes, learn to believe what God has said.
Spaced_Out wrote:Take the truth from them that experienced both existences and rejoice in the opportunity this life offers.
Yes, please do that. You seem to be very resistant to this idea.

Locked