The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

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LukeAir2008
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LukeAir2008 »

Lots of false doctrine here. It''s fine if you prefer fairy stories but the Prophets in the beginning of this dispensation have revealed and explained everything so the truth is available if you prefer truth.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

LukeAir2008 wrote:Lots of false doctrine here. It''s fine if you prefer fairy stories but the Prophets in the beginning of this dispensation have revealed and explained everything so the truth is available if you prefer truth.
Lots of false doctrine in your post. It's fine if you prefer fairy stories, but the Prophets in the beginning of this dispensation have revealed scriptures that explained everything so the truth is available if you prefer truth.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Modified the following section in the OP:
So Lucifer's statement, "There is no other way," was the big lie. (No surprise there, coming from "the father of all lies,"—a lie for which many still fall, especially in the church.)

No, really... Think of this: "Is there no other way?" was the key question of the entire Eden experience. It would be the height of folly to think that the devil would respond truthfully to the most important question that could have been asked in the garden.

He lied! Dah!

Is anyone surprised? I am not.

But for some inexplicable reason many members of the church believe that the father of all lies told the truth on this the most important question. Of course he didn't, or he wouldn't be the devil!

"There is no other way," was the main lie spoken by the devil in the garden, and the main lie he speaks today.

Eve fell because she believed a lie that "there was no other way" to know good and evil.
Adam fell because he believed a lie that "there was no other way" for them to be together or for man to be.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Updated the summary section as follows:
Contrary to what the devil told them, there was another way to open Adam's and Eve's eyes in the garden of Eden without any transgression required, and therefore to have children without the fall, because resisting temptation opens eyes just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings.
I'm sure I'll find better words to express the same idea in the future. :)

But for now, he who has ears to hear, let him hear.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Updated some paragraph order and formatting in the OP to move more important points to the top. I still think I should move the "No Error Fallacy" section higher, but I'll do it later.

Spaced_Out
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

LoveIsTruth wrote:Updated the summary section as follows:
Contrary to what the devil told them, there was another way to open Adam's and Eve's eyes in the garden of Eden without any transgression required, and therefore to have children without the fall, because resisting temptation opens eyes just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings.
I'm sure I'll find better words to express the same idea in the future. :)

But for now, he who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Blasphemous and false doctrine., not according to the scriptures or teaching of the prophets or what is taught in the Temple. Teachings inspired by Satan.

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Robin Hood
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Robin Hood »

While I don't agree with everything LoveIsTruth says about this issue (we have exchanged differences previously), we need to remember that the one who said "there is no other way" was Lucifer, the father of lies.
I cannot believe that God set Adam and Eve up to fail. Even if partaking of the fruit in the manner they did was Plan A, there must surely have been a Plan B.
God doesn't give us instructions which are impossible for us to carry out in my view. That isn't just.

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HorribleUsername
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by HorribleUsername »

Robin Hood wrote:While I don't agree with everything LoveIsTruth says about this issue (we have exchanged differences previously), we need to remember that the one who said "there is no other way" was Lucifer, the father of lies.
I cannot believe that God set Adam and Eve up to fail. Even if partaking of the fruit in the manner they did was Plan A, there must surely have been a Plan B.
God doesn't give us instructions which are impossible for us to carry out in my view. That isn't just.
Christ also said that in John 14:6:

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
:D

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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

Robin Hood wrote:While I don't agree with everything LoveIsTruth says about this issue (we have exchanged differences previously), we need to remember that the one who said "there is no other way" was Lucifer, the father of lies.
I cannot believe that God set Adam and Eve up to fail. Even if partaking of the fruit in the manner they did was Plan A, there must surely have been a Plan B.
God doesn't give us instructions which are impossible for us to carry out in my view. That isn't just.
This has been extensively discussed, it is the same pattern done in other worlds, God's purposes never fail. It is how God gained his knowledge. The fact that we are now all cursed and living a different life other than what God ordained for us due to one person Adam is ludicrous. The doctrine also makes a mockery of the the Atonement of Christ -"As in Adam all die so in Christ all are made alive". The doctrine also nullifies the council in heaven - where we chose a specific plan and agreed to go with it, and were given specific tasks in the pre-existence to accomplish - but now we are living another plan - what utter rubbish.

Lucifer's lie was that by eating the fruits they would become as the god's - it requires more than simply eating a fruit and gaining knowledge of right and wrong to become a god.

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Robin Hood
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Robin Hood »

Don't get me wrong.
It was always the plan for them to eat the fruit. When questioned Lucifer pointed out that this was what was done elsewhere.
I think it was all about timing.
Adam and Eve were visited by God frequently. These were teaching/training sessions, just as we train and teach our innocent childen. I feel a time would have arrived when God would have instructed them that they were now ready to enter mortality and take the fruit.
Lucifer jumped in prematurely in order to create mischief and steal the world for himself, by not only getting them to eat the fruit before they were ready, but to get them to do it at his, rather than God's request..

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Spaced_Out wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:Updated the summary section as follows:
Contrary to what the devil told them, there was another way to open Adam's and Eve's eyes in the garden of Eden without any transgression required, and therefore to have children without the fall, because resisting temptation opens eyes just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings.
I'm sure I'll find better words to express the same idea in the future. :)

But for now, he who has ears to hear, let him hear.
Blasphemous and false doctrine., not according to the scriptures or teaching of the prophets or what is taught in the Temple. Teachings inspired by Satan.
Now I know that I am on a right track! Only truth inspires such hatred and vitriol, and only in profoundly blind people!

Thanks for [unwittingly] validating my point!

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Spaced_Out wrote:... it is the same pattern done in other worlds, .... It is how God gained his knowledge.
What is your source for this information? Umm... O yes, Satan has said it, so it must be true, right?

Anyone?

There is no evidence that all worlds suffered the same fall the earth did. In fact, reason asserts otherwise.

And please remind me, how did Jesus gain his knowledge? O right, he gained his knowledge by resisting temptations, not by yielding to them. So much for Satan's lie that "this is how God gained his knowledge." In Jesus, we have direct, incontrovertible evidence that Satan has lied in this point.

That's why I said in the OP: "resisting temptation opens eyes just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings."

That was what God required of Adam, and that was the way to open Adam's eyes without transgression and to have children without the fall, precisely as God commanded him,-- that is by keeping God's commandments, not by transgressing them!

I said it before, but it bears repeating. There is a very simple, and foolproof way to discern good from evil, that you and everyone else must learn:
  • Good = that which is according to God's commandments.
    Evil = that which is contrary to His commandments.
Start here, then you have a chance to understand the truth, friend.
Spaced_Out wrote:The fact that we are now all cursed and living a different life other than what God ordained for us due to one person Adam is ludicrous.
Really? Have you not heard of the fall?
Spaced_Out wrote:The doctrine also makes a mockery of the the Atonement of Christ -"As in Adam all die so in Christ all are made alive".
Did you miss the part where "in Adam all die?" And he was one person as you said. How is that for a curse?

Scripture says it; will you deny it?

And if you deny that Adam made a real and serious mistake, then you deny that there was a real and serious fall, and therefore you deny the real and serious need for the Atonement!

So by denying that Adam made a serious mistake, you deny the justice of God, and the real need for the Atonement!

So you got everything exactly in reverse, my friend. I assert the absolute need for the Atonement, but you, unwittingly, deny it.
Spaced_Out wrote:The doctrine also nullifies the council in heaven - where we chose a specific plan and agreed to go with it, and were given specific tasks in the pre-existence to accomplish - but now we are living another plan - what utter rubbish.
Abraham agreed to be born to Terah, who tried to murder him and to sacrifice him to idols. Yes, the plan accounted for this eventuality, but it does not mean however, that Terah made no mistake and "did everything right." Does it?

So is the fall of Adam. The plan made provisions for it, but it did not make a transgression "the right thing to do," or God would cease to be God and be a liar, for he would be contradicting himself. (So technically, it is those who deny that Adam made a serious mistake that are committing blasphemy, though unwittingly).
Spaced_Out wrote:Lucifer's lie was that by eating the fruits they would become as the god's - it requires more than simply eating a fruit and gaining knowledge of right and wrong to become a god.
Lucifer spoke many lies in the garden, which you and many others diligently repeat. The main lie he spoke however was that "there is no other way,"-- the lie for which you and many others still fall for -- hook, line and sinker.

He lied! Because he is "the father of all lies." Duh!

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Thanks to Spaced_Out I created two more sections in the OP, addressing his concerns. :)

Thank you.

"We chose a specific plan in preexistence and agreed to go with it, therefore Adam did the right thing" fallacy.

Let's look at an example: Abraham agreed to be born to Terah, who tried to murder him and to sacrifice him to idols. Yes, the plan accounted for this eventuality, but it does not mean however, that Terah made no mistake and "did everything right."

So is the fall of Adam. The plan made provisions for it, but it did not make a transgression "the right thing to do," or God would cease to be God and be a liar, for he would be contradicting himself.


"No Error" Fallacy
...

"It is the same pattern done in other worlds, .... It is how God gained his knowledge" lie.

You recall that these were the arguments that Satan gave to Eve in the garden trying to persuade her to disobey God. And of course it was another lie.

There is no evidence that all worlds suffered the same fall the earth did. In fact, reason asserts otherwise.

And as for God gaining his knowledge: Let's remember that Jesus, who was born as a little child, and who initially had the same veil over his mind that Adam and Eve had in the garden, gained his knowledge and had his eyes opened to know good from evil by resisting temptations, not by yielding to them! So in Jesus, we have a direct and incontrovertible proof that Satan has lied about how God had his eyes opened to know good and evil.

That's why I said that resisting temptation opens eyes just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings.

This is what God required of Adam and Eve, and had they listened to him by resisting the temptation of the devil, they would have began to have their eyes opened without any transgression, and thus could have had children in the garden of Eden without the fall, inheriting a paradise for themselves and their posterity, instead of a fallen world, precisely as God commanded them.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Modified summary as follows:
Summary:
Contrary to what the devil told them, there was another way to open Adam's and Eve's eyes in the garden of Eden without any transgression required, and therefore to have children without the fall, because, as demonstrated by Jesus, resisting temptation opens eyes just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Corrected paragraph:
From this it follows, that there had to be a way for Adam and Eve to keep the first commandment, and have their eyes opened, WITHOUT transgressing the second commandment, (or God would cease to be God). This is much more plausible and reasonable than to imagine that "God didn't really want Adam and Eve to keep the second commandment" or any other nonsense like that, which would make God a self-contradictory god, which is no God at all!

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JK4Woods
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by JK4Woods »

LoveIsTruth wrote:Modified the following section in the OP:
So Lucifer's statement, "There is no other way," was the big lie. (No surprise there, coming from "the father of all lies,"—a lie for which many still fall, especially in the church.)

No, really... Think of this: "Is there no other way?" was the key question of the entire Eden experience. It would be the height of folly to think that the devil would respond truthfully to the most important question that could have been asked in the garden.

He lied! Dah!

Is anyone surprised? I am not.

But for some inexplicable reason many members of the church believe that the father of all lies told the truth on this the most important question. Of course he didn't, or he wouldn't be the devil!

"There is no other way," was the main lie spoken by the devil in the garden, and the main lie he speaks today.

Eve fell because she believed a lie that "there was no other way" to know good and evil.
Adam fell because he believed a lie that "there was no other way" for them to be together or for man to be.
LovesTruth, You are spot on!

Especially validated when Elohim says "if they yield" .... meaning there was a choice.

And a commandment was given to be fruitful, multiple and replenish the earth (not the garden of Eden).

Adam's shortfall was thinking that if he stayed in the Garden, and Eve was expelled, that he would be a lone man in the garden of Eden.

Adam presumed he had to follow Eve by eating the fruit. Why couldn't he have just walked out of the Garden with Eve without eating the fruit?

Was the Garden of Eden just the Honeymoon spot for Adam and Eve?

Interesting in the newest film, Adam & Eve have made baskets in the Garden, and when expelled, they are seen making baskets also.
Weaving a basket is considered "work". So the newest film shows them working in the Garden of Eden.

Humm....

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

JK4Woods wrote:LovesTruth, You are spot on!

Especially validated when Elohim says "if they yield" .... meaning there was a choice.
Excellent point!

Exactly! There was a choice not to yield and to have their eyes opened by resisting temptations, like Jesus did, not by yielding to them. And if they had their eyes opened that way,-- by keeping God's commandments,-- they could have had children in the Garden without the fall, as God commanded them. Then the whole earth would have been as the Garden, as we are told by the prophets it will be in the Millennium.

Thank you.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Updated the summary section of the OP as follows:
Summary:
Contrary to what the devil told them, there was another way to open Adam's and Eve's eyes in the garden of Eden without any transgression required, and therefore to have children without the fall, which way was to simply resist the temptation, because as demonstrated by Jesus, resisting temptation opens eyes to know good and evil just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings.

This is why it was called the tree of "knowledge of good and evil," because whether they resisted or yielded to the temptation to partake of it, their eyes would have been opened, for it was the exposure to the temptation, and not the tree, that opened their eyes, and they chose the lesser part.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Modified another passage in the OP as follows:
Neither did Eve, for the very same reason, make a good choice in the garden for her own children and descendants, contrary to what many erroneously assert. The good choice would have been to resist the temptation of the devil, which resistance would have opened their eyes without any transgression required, (just like Jesus had his eyes opened), and thus enable them to have children in the garden of Eden without a fall, exactly as the Father had commanded them.

That, was the good choice,-- to resists the temptation instead of yielding to it,-- and they dropped the ball. To deny this truth is foolishness, contradicts the scriptures, and worse yet, it makes God a liar, which is a very bad logic indeed.

And, yes, it was an honest mistake on Eve's part (to partake of the fruit), to be sure, but a mistake nevertheless. Without understanding this, one cannot understand the true nature of the fall, nor the real need for an atonement. Because there WAS another way. A much better way indeed!

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Refined the passage in the OP further:
Neither did Eve, for the very same reason, make a good choice in the garden for her own children and descendants, contrary to what many erroneously assert. For "the Lord God ... showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents." (2 Nephi 2:21) And that, by definition, was not a good choice by the parents for their posterity!

The good choice would have been to resist the temptation of the devil, which resistance would have opened their eyes without any transgression required, (just like Jesus had his eyes opened by resisting temptations instead of yielding to them), and thus enable them to have children in the garden of Eden without a fall, giving their posterity a paradise right from the start, similar to that which will exist again for untold billions of children in the Millennium, exactly as the Father had commanded them.

That, was the good choice,-- to resists the temptation instead of yielding to it,-- and they dropped the ball. To deny this truth is foolishness, contradicts the scriptures, and worse yet, it makes God a liar, which is a very bad logic indeed.

And, yes, it was an honest mistake on Eve's part (to partake of the fruit), to be sure, but a mistake nevertheless. Without understanding this, one cannot understand the true nature of the fall, nor the real need for an atonement. Because there WAS another way. A much better way indeed!

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

The second founding of Zion is 2000 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is 200 years since the restoration of his Church in the latter days. And our calendar is 3 years off relative to the life of the Savior.

So will Zion, all but die and be resurrected at that time, and when it does, all the world combined will not be able to move her out of her place, for God will be there and He will defend her.

  • "for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
    What shall then answer the messengers of the nations? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it."
    (Isaiah 14:31-32; 2 Nephi 24:31-32)
Hence is the second founding, in preparation to the second coming. And the second coming is 2300 years after the first coming of the Savior.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Expanded the following section in the OP:
  • "Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever." (Mosiah 3:26)
And that too is a "part of the plan." [So being "part of the plan" does not mean you are doing the right thing, because the plan accounts for both good and evil, and rewards everyone according to their works. Therefore hell itself is also "a part of the plan," but it doesn't mean it is recommended! In fact, it is forbidden, though you are definitely free to choose it against the Father's commandments. Just like Adam was free to choose to eat of the forbidden fruit against the Father's commandment. Both these choices are unwise, according to the scripture above, that's why they were put in the same sentence together, because one illustrates the other, because they are both wrong choices!

Moreover, in the temple we learn that God said: "And we will allow Lucifer, our common enemy, to tempt them and to try them."

If Adam was “supposed” to partake of the forbidden fruit, and “did the right thing” in doing so, then there was no temptation. There was nothing to tempt him with because, supposedly, partaking of the fruit was “the right thing to do.” Such conclusion insults logic and reason, and makes meaningless what God have said. Therefore to believe such nonsense is a self-contradiction, and thus is clearly false.

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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: September 1st, 2017, 2:57 am
“It is generally supposed that Brigham Young was the author of the doctrine which places Adam as the patriarchal head of the human race, and ascribes to him the dignity of future presidency over this earth and its inhabitants, when the work of redemption shall have been completed. Those who read the Prophet's treatise on the Priesthood in the text above will have their opinions corrected upon this subject; for clearly it is the word of the Lord through the Prophet Joseph Smith which established that doctrine. The utterances of President Brigham Young but repeat and expound the doctrine which the Prophet here sets forth. (HC 3:388) Some of the sectarian ministers are saying that we ‘Mormons’ are ashamed of the doctrine announced by President Brigham Young to the effect that Adam will thus be the God of this world. No, friends, it is not that we are ashamed of that doctrine. If you see any change come over our countenances when this doctrine is named, it is surprise, astonishment, that any one at all capable of grasping the largeness and extent of the universe the grandeur of existence and the possibilities in man for growth, for progress, should be so lean of intellect, should have such a paucity of understanding, as to call it into question at all. This is what our change of countenance means not shame for the doctrine Brigham Young taught.”
(The Mormon Doctrine Of Deity, B. H. Roberts, pg 42-43)
“These are the sons and daughters of Adam -- the Ancient of Days -- the Father and God of the whole human family. These are the sons and daughters of Michael, who is Adam, the father of the spirits of all our race. These are the sons and daughters of Eve, the Mother of a world. What a practical Unitarianism is this! The Christ is not dragged from his heavenly estate, to be mere mortal, but mortals are lifted up to his celestial plane. He is still the God-Man; but he is one among many brethren who are also God-Men. Moreover, Jesus is one of a grand order of Saviours. Every world has its distinctive Saviour, and every dispensation its Christ.”
(Eliza R. Snow, Women of Mormondom pg. 191-192)
This Doctrine is no anomaly, it was known and accepted by many. And it was not "Brigham's Doctrine", It was revealed to Joseph Smith and he taught it to many. If this doctrine is distasteful or even offensive to you, then the Restoration of Gospel is distasteful or offensive to you because this is a Restored Truth.
“Eve -- immortal Eve -- came down to earth to become the Mother of a race. How [does she] become the Mother of a world of mortals except by herself again becoming mortal? How become mortal only by transgressing the laws of immortality? How only by ‘eating of the forbidden fruit’ by partaking of the elements of a mortal earth, in which the seed of death was everywhere scattered?…
Eve, then, came down to be the Mother of a world. Glorious Mother, capable of dying at the very beginning to give life to her offspring, that through mortality the eternal life of the Gods might be given to her sons and daughters… Did woman hesitate a moment then? Did motherhood refuse the cup for her own sake, or did she with infinite love, take it and drink for her children's sake? The Mother had plunged down, from the pinnacle of her celestial throne, to earth, to taste of death that her children might have everlasting life… A Goddess came down from her mansions of glory to bring the spirits of her children down after her, in their myriads of branches and their hundreds of generations! She was again a mortal Mother now… Eve stands, then, first—the God-Mother…”
(Eliza R. Snow, Women of Mormondom, pg. 197-200)
It is important to understand, Adam became Adam by Atoning for the Sins of His Fathers Children, He was the Christ of that world. And, having performed the Atonement and having been Resurrected by His Father, he has life unto himself. But Eve does not. Even so, she, having faith in her husband, did not shrink from becoming mortal again to provide mortal bodies for her spirit children. She relied on Adam to sustain her life during childbirth. And after raising their mortal children, they, Adam and Eve, returned to their Celestial Home and the seeds of death and mortality were purged from their bodies.

Yes, Adam and Eve were immortal resurrected Celestial beings, never to taste of death again, and that is what happened, They Did Not Sin, So They Did Not Die.

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LoveIsTruth
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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

I am not going to make a prophet an "offender for a word." But he and you are clearly incorrect.

Eve made a serious mistake, and so did Adam. Why? Because there was a better way. What way? To resist the temptation of the devil, and to keep the commandments of the Father.

It is astounding, that it came to this, that one has to argue for these obvious things! Where is the consistency of reason in those who contradict such fundamental principles as keeping God's commandments? The reason is gone from them, in favor of blindly following supposed "authority" even when that "authority" is clearly an opinion of a mistaken man, for it contradicts the scriptures, reason, and the revealed word of God!

Where is logic? Where is reason? Anyone?

Thanks.

Is the prophet then no prophet, because he made such mistakes? Of course not! He is still a prophet, because his error was an honest one. And God forgives honest mistakes, even to prophets! Thank God for that, or there would be no hope for any of us! :)

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Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Hidingbehindmyhandle »

LoveIsTruth wrote: September 1st, 2017, 10:51 am I am not going to make a prophet an "offender for a word." But he and you are clearly incorrect.

Eve made a serious mistake, and so did Adam. Why? Because there was a better way. What way? To resist the temptation of the devil, and to keep the commandments of the Father.

It is astounding, that it came to this, that one has to argue for these obvious things! Where is the consistency of reason in those who contradict such fundamental principles as keeping God's commandments? The reason is gone from them, in favor of blindly following supposed "authority" even when that "authority" is clearly an opinion of a mistaken man, for it contradicts the scriptures, reason, and revealed word of God!

Where is logic? Where is reason? Anyone?

Thanks.
What man is mistaken?
Joseph Smith? Brigham Young?
They taught this, who are you to tell them they are wrong?

"Man is punished for his own sins and not for Adam's transgression".
Not Sin, but Transgression.
"If you want to remain in the garden forever as an immortal, don't eat the fruit."
They violated the requirements to remain immortal, but that is not Sin.
Adam and Eve, being immortal, could only produce immortal offspring.
For them to produce mortal offspring, they had to partake of the dusts of a fallen world full of the seeds of death.
They had to take on mortality to provide mortal bodies.
It was a great sacrifice necessary to provide mortal bodies for their spirit children.
Not only was there not a better way, there was no other way.

I have presented just some of my evidence, but you have presented a hollow claim.
You provide nothing to make it "clear".
That which is asserted with no evidence is dismissed with evidence.
It is you, sir, that is wrong. Not Joseph, Not Brigham, Not Eliza, and not I.

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