The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
Locked
User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Robin Hood »

Jesef wrote:How about this?

A just and holy Supreme-Being/God/Heavenly-Parent would never hold one being accountable for the choices of another being (that would not be just), therefore we are not accountable for the transgressions, sins, mistakes (or any other kind of choice) of our parents or progenitors. So we, their proposed descendants, are not accountable for the choices of Adam/Eve. If they made a mistake by doing things the way they did them, in the Garden, afterwards, etc., why did any of us choose to come down here to continue or participate in their flubbed/fallen world/experiment? Why didn't we just say/choose, "no thanks, I can see that Adam/Eve chose a low road down there and I would rather go to a world where they chose correctly/right and the conditions are more favorable..."? We were not forced or obligated to come to this world. And furthermore, if they screwed up or invoked Plan-B or whatever, but this was the only world that was available to us (which seems terribly unlikely given the size of the Universe), why not just let those two (Adam/Eve) die off and restart the experiment over with two who would get it right (if a better alternative exists/existed)? Why punish billions of souls for what amounts to a "false start"? And furthermore, if the God of Adam/Eve is actually Supreme/Omnipotent/Omniscient, would They not have seen it coming and chosen two original parent who would get it right? I.e. this interpretation makes it sound like They don't know what They're doing, can't foresee what's coming, and that Their plans get frustrated. Or is everything going exactly the way it's supposed to, we just don't understand it? Like gravity.
You make some good points.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Jesef wrote:How about this?

A just and holy Supreme-Being/God/Heavenly-Parent would never hold one being accountable for the choices of another being (that would not be just), therefore we are not accountable for the transgressions, sins, mistakes (or any other kind of choice) of our parents or progenitors. So we, their proposed descendants, are not accountable for the choices of Adam/Eve.
Children are not responsible for the sins and transgressions of their parents (unless they use goods stolen by their parents, in which case they need to restore them.) However children are effected by the choices their parents make. For example: if a mother chooses to smoke and to drink alcohol during her pregnancy she may effect the health of her child. In a similar way we are all effected by the choice that Adam and Eve made in the garden.
Jesef wrote:If they made a mistake by doing things the way they did them, in the Garden, afterwards, etc., why did any of us choose to come down here to continue or participate in their flubbed/fallen world/experiment? Why didn't we just say/choose, "no thanks, I can see that Adam/Eve chose a low road down there and I would rather go to a world where they chose correctly/right and the conditions are more favorable..."?
We could, but we didn't. Why? Because we knew that with God's help we could overcome the effects like Enoch and Melchizedek did, and because there are compensatory blessings to those who are faced with more intense difficulties. So we chose a more intense, but shorter program of perfecting ourselves. It was our preference. Just like children who chose to be born to alcoholic, negligent or abusive parents have compensatory blessings from God. Look at Abraham. His earthly father wanted to kill and sacrifice him to idols, but Abraham relied on the Lord and turned out alright. This however does not make Abraham's father's choices good or correct. They were bad choices for which he has or will answer to God. That is all accounted for in the program.
Jesef wrote:And furthermore, if they screwed up or invoked Plan-B or whatever, but this was the only world that was available to us (which seems terribly unlikely given the size of the Universe), why not just let those two (Adam/Eve) die off and restart the experiment over with two who would get it right (if a better alternative exists/existed)? Why punish billions of souls for what amounts to a "false start"?
Why then send children to alcoholic or abusive parents? The same reason. We chose it with the understanding that with God's help we could overcome it all thus gaining the experience we needed. It does not however make the choices made by alcoholic or abusive parents correct. Neither does it make the choice that Adam and Eve made correct. It was a fall for a reason,-- they made a real and serious, though innocent mistake.
Jesef wrote:And furthermore, if the God of Adam/Eve is actually Supreme/Omnipotent/Omniscient, would They not have seen it coming and chosen two original parent who would get it right?
Again, for the same reason that alcoholic or abusive parents are allowed to have children, as I explained.
Jesef wrote:I.e. this interpretation makes it sound like They don't know what They're doing, can't foresee what's coming, and that Their plans get frustrated.
Though Adam and Eve made the mistake, God's plan was not frustrated because he was perfectly prepared for it, (as you know), just like he was not surprised and was perfectly prepared for Lucifer's rebellion in heaven. This does not however mean that Lucifer, or Adam and Eve made no mistake. They did.
Jesef wrote:Or is everything going exactly the way it's supposed to, we just don't understand it? Like gravity.
Again, quoting from the OP:
"They behaved exactly how God expected them to. It was all part of the plan; therefore they did the right thing" fallacy.

"Expected to" is not the same as "commanded to."

God was not surprised by the choices of Adam and Eve, as He was not surprised by the choice that Lucifer made in rebelling and starting a war in heaven. It does not however make them right choices. Of those who make bad choices and do not admit them God said:
  • "Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever." (Mosiah 3:26)
And that too is a part of the plan.

User avatar
Jesef
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2603
Location: Unauthorized Opinion-Land

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Jesef »

So what's your point, if you don't mind restating it succinctly for me?

Because it sounds like we're actually on the same page: things are going according to plan and choice, and we chose this plan and to come down here under these conditions, fully cognizant of such.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Jesef wrote:So what's your point, if you don't mind restating it succinctly for me?

Because it sounds like we're actually on the same page: things are going according to plan and choice, and we chose this plan and to come down here under these conditions, fully cognizant of such.
I am glad to hear that!

Thanks to you, I refined the summary in the OP as follows:
So what is the take away from the lesson about Adam and Eve?
  • a) God originally created a perfect world, free of death, and full of infinite possibilities for progress without any transgression required, and gave it to Adam and Eve and their posterity.

    b) Contrary to what the devil told them, there was another way to open Adam and Eve's eyes in the garden of Eden without any transgression, because resisting temptation opens eyes just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings.

    c) Adam and Eve were deceived by Satan in the garden, and though they were yet incapable of committing sin, made a real and serious mistake by yielding to the temptation of the devil and disobeying God, which resulted in a curse, the fall of the world, and death.

    d) If you see a devil in the garden talking to people, don't let your wife remain alone and unprotected.

    e) One should be loyal to God over spouse, or disastrous consequences for both of them and for their posterity will follow.

    f) After a natural punishment (allowing one to suffer the natural consequences of one's own actions so they may learn), God, being a perfect and loving Father, forgives honest mistakes and turns them for everyone's good, like he did for Adam and Eve and their posterity through Christ,

    g) by whom they may overcome the fallen world, thus receiving an accelerated experience, restore it back to its paradisaical glory, and regain immortality and eternal life that God offered Adam and Eve from the very beginning.
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on September 17th, 2016, 12:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Jesef
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2603
Location: Unauthorized Opinion-Land

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Jesef »

Thank you for that, you might also add that this seemingly "harder" or "lower" path/road actually afforded an accelerated opportunity for souls (who choose to participate and come down here) to face greater opposition, more trying circumstances, and therefore greater growth/learning/progress, perhaps at greater risk. Something like that. If you agree with that and I'm understanding you correctly.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Jesef wrote:Thank you for that, you might also add that this seemingly "harder" or "lower" path/road actually afforded an accelerated opportunity for souls (who choose to participate and come down here) to face greater opposition, more trying circumstances, and therefore greater growth/learning/progress, perhaps at greater risk. Something like that. If you agree with that and I'm understanding you correctly.
Brilliant! Good idea.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
So what is the take away from the lesson about Adam and Eve?
  • a) God originally created a perfect world, free of death, and full of infinite possibilities for progress without any transgression required, and gave it to Adam and Eve and their posterity.

    b) Contrary to what the devil told them, there was another way to open Adam and Eve's eyes in the garden of Eden without any transgression, because resisting temptation opens eyes just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings.

    c) Adam and Eve were deceived by Satan in the garden, and though they were yet incapable of committing sin, made a real and serious mistake by yielding to the temptation of the devil and disobeying God, which resulted in a curse, the fall of the world, and death.

    d) If you see a devil in the garden talking to people, don't let your wife remain alone and unprotected.

    e) One should be loyal to God over spouse, or disastrous consequences for both of them and for their posterity will follow.

    f) After a natural punishment (allowing one to suffer the natural consequences of one's own actions so they may learn), God, being a perfect and loving Father, forgives honest mistakes and turns them for everyone's good, like he did for Adam and Eve and their posterity through Christ,

    g) by whom they may overcome the fallen world, restore it back to its paradisaical glory, and regain immortality and eternal life that God offered Adam and Eve from the very beginning.
All false doctrine.

User avatar
Jesef
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2603
Location: Unauthorized Opinion-Land

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Jesef »

Spaced_Out, how do you KNOW it's all false doctrine? Genuinely curious.

And LoveIsTruth, how do you KNOW it is true?

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Added this section to the OP (thanks, Jesef):
God turns honest mistakes for everyone's good through Christ.

Though the fall created a harsher world with more intense opposition and challenges, it also created fertile ground for accelerated progress and development of those of God's children who chose to be born into it.

Whereas in the worlds that experienced no fall it may take people hundreds of thousands of years to obtain the necessary experience to be exalted, it takes on average under 100 years in this fallen world, provided correct choices are made by the individual.

This should not be construed to mean that Adam and Eve therefore made a good choice, just like children born to wicked and abusive parents receiving accelerated experience and compensatory blessings from God, does not mean that the parents did the right thing.

Good example of this would be Abraham. He was born to a wicked father named Terah who wanted to murder him and to offer him as sacrifice to idols. But Abraham trusted in the Lord and was protected and blessed by God to offset the troubles created by his earthly father, which of course does not mean that Terah did the right thing. He will answer for his mistakes and sins to the Lord according to the plan.

So, through the grace and atonement of Heavenly Father, offered to us through his Only Begotten Son, all of the troubles created by the honest mistake of Adam and Eve, and by mistakes and sins of anyone else can be offset and compensated for the righteous, giving them all the blessings they are willing to enjoy.

Thus honest mistakes are forgiven to all by a gracious God, after they learn from the natural consequences of their mistakes, as well as sins are forgiven to them who sincerely repent and transform their lives.

In this way, God turns the fallen world for good to those who follow Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ with all their hearts.
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on September 16th, 2016, 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Jesef wrote:Genuinely curious.
And LoveIsTruth, how do you KNOW it is true?
Good question! I carefully studied the words of God and prayed, and received a confirming witness that my conclusions were correct.

User avatar
Jesef
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2603
Location: Unauthorized Opinion-Land

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Jesef »

Sorry if you've already described that answer and I missed it - feel free to link to it - but please describe the answer in as much detail as you are able. And how did you know it meant what you interpreted it to mean? Thank you.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Jesef wrote:Sorry if you've already described that answer and I missed it - feel free to link to it - but please describe the answer in as much detail as you are able. And how did you know it meant what you interpreted it to mean? Thank you.
I gave very careful reasoning in the OP, deriving step by step my every conclusion. Feel free to look at it.

Thanks.

User avatar
Jesef
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2603
Location: Unauthorized Opinion-Land

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Jesef »

I'm sorry, I meant the spiritual/revelatory confirmation you feel you received.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Jesef wrote:I'm sorry, I meant the spiritual/revelatory confirmation you feel you received.
The basic logic and the testimony that confirms it, is that God cannot contradict himself, nor can he give contradictory commandments, or he would cease to be God. That the Spirit has confirmed to me.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

Jesef wrote:Spaced_Out, how do you KNOW it's all false doctrine? Genuinely curious.

And LoveIsTruth, how do you KNOW it is true?
"LoveIsTruth" proposes a different plan than the plan of salvation than we are on. The only person who has ever proposed a different plan was Satan.
LoveIsTruth wrote:Details:
There is a common misconception among the church members (sadly including some of our well-meaning apostles) about Adam and Eve’s fall, how it was wise of them to partake of the forbidden fruit, which always bothered me.

2 Nephi 2:25
25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

That is false because you do not understand the scripture, and it is contrary to what God has commanded. Therefore the correct meaning of that scripture is:
"Adam fell because he would not that men might be any other way; and men are, that they might have joy."

"And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."(Moses 5:11)

Still does not mean they COULD not have children in the garden, but (in context), that they WOULD not, as in choice.
Again, the correct meaning would be this:

"We would not have posterity, nor know good and evil without a transgression, because we were deceived ('The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.' (Moses 4:19)). But now that we know better, and understand the error we have made, we rejoice in our merciful redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."
Here is an interesting statement from one of the aliens who met with President Eisenhower:

"There is life on many other planets of which people on Earth know nothing. There are more solar systems for which man has not even given God credit. There are many beings that have never transgressed the perfect laws of God. Man does not possess the right to condemn the whole of God's creation because he himself has broken the perfect laws of God through disobedience."-- Valiant Thor

("Stranger at the Pentagon" by Dr. Frank E. Stranges, Ph.D. 1967, Inner Light Publications).
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bb/stranges.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Preaching such a doctrine changing the scriptures is of the devil, and deriding the apostles is grounds for discipline. He even quotes aliens to justify his blasphemy.
The principle that Adam was as a child and could not have children or progressed without eating the fruit is a teaching of the scriptures, temple, general authorities and general handbooks of the church.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

I think the amount of vitriolic hatred I evoke in Spaced_Out is proof enough that I am right.

Thank you.

Spaced_Out
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1795

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Spaced_Out »

LoveIsTruth wrote:I think the amount of vitriolic hatred I evoke in Spaced_Out is proof enough that I am right.

Thank you.
As I posted on another thread if you had to preach those doctrines in a sacrament meeting or stake meeting or general conference you would be asked to sit down and your doctrine would be corrected.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Spaced_Out wrote:As I posted on another thread if you had to preach those doctrines in a sacrament meeting or stake meeting or general conference you would be asked to sit down and your doctrine would be corrected.
It does not make it any less true. This is why half of the church will be cleansed according to the lord himself. Ever heard of the 5 virgins?

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Robin Hood »

LoveIsTruth wrote: It does not make it any less true.
And it doesn't make them true either.
As far as I'm concerned anyone who relies on aliens from Venus to support their claims is either peddling questionable doctrine or is a sandwich short of a picnic.
Possibly both.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

They called Jesus crazy. So I am in good company.

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Robin Hood »

LoveIsTruth wrote:They called Jesus crazy.
There's a clear difference.
Jesus wasn't crazy.
You, on the other hand......

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Robin Hood wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:They called Jesus crazy.
There's a clear difference.
Jesus wasn't crazy.
You, on the other hand......
They were telling Jesus the same thing: "Moses wasn't crazy but you are." That's why I said I am in a good company. And you have proven my point. Thank you.

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Robin Hood »

LoveIsTruth wrote:
Robin Hood wrote:
LoveIsTruth wrote:They called Jesus crazy.
There's a clear difference.
Jesus wasn't crazy.
You, on the other hand......
They were telling Jesus the same thing: "Moses wasn't crazy but you are."

First, aliens from Venus..... and now you're Jesus.
What do you do for an encore?

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by LoveIsTruth »

I only said it was a good company. :)

User avatar
Robin Hood
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13112
Location: England

Re: The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

Post by Robin Hood »

Yeah, but I have learned to be very wary of those who compare themselves to Jesus.
These people always have a very inflated and totally misplaced opinion of themselves.
And they tend to be a little loopy.

Locked