The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

[JK4Woods]

Modified the following section in the OP:

So Lucifer's statement, "There is no other way," was the big lie. (No surprise there, coming from "the father of all lies,"—a lie for which many still fall, especially in the church.)

No, really... Think of this: "Is there no other way?" was the key question of the entire Eden experience. It would be the height of folly to think that the devil would respond truthfully to the most important question that could have been asked in the garden.

He lied! Dah!

Is anyone surprised? I am not.

But for some inexplicable reason many members of the church believe that the father of all lies told the truth on this the most important question. Of course he didn't, or he wouldn't be the devil!

"There is no other way," was the main lie spoken by the devil in the garden, and the main lie he speaks today.

Eve fell because she believed a lie that "there was no other way" to know good and evil.
Adam fell because he believed a lie that "there was no other way" for them to be together or for man to be.

LovesTruth, You are spot on!

Especially validated when Elohim says "if they yield" .... meaning there was a choice.

And a commandment was given to be fruitful, multiple and replenish the earth (not the garden of Eden).

Adam's shortfall was thinking that if he stayed in the Garden, and Eve was expelled, that he would be a lone man in the garden of Eden.

Adam presumed he had to follow Eve by eating the fruit. Why couldn't he have just walked out of the Garden with Eve without eating the fruit?

Was the Garden of Eden just the Honeymoon spot for Adam and Eve?

Interesting in the newest film, Adam & Eve have made baskets in the Garden, and when expelled, they are seen making baskets also.
Weaving a basket is considered "work". So the newest film shows them working in the Garden of Eden.

Humm....

[LoveIsTruth]

LovesTruth, You are spot on!

Especially validated when Elohim says "if they yield" .... meaning there was a choice.

Excellent point!

Exactly! There was a choice not to yield and to have their eyes opened by resisting temptations, like Jesus did, not by yielding to them. And if they had their eyes opened that way,-- by keeping God's commandments,-- they could have had children in the Garden without the fall, as God commanded them. Then the whole earth would have been as the Garden, as we are told by the prophets it will be in the Millennium.

Thank you.

[LoveIsTruth]

Updated the summary section of the OP as follows:

Summary:
Contrary to what the devil told them, there was another way to open Adam's and Eve's eyes in the garden of Eden without any transgression required, and therefore to have children without the fall, which way was to simply resist the temptation, because as demonstrated by Jesus, resisting temptation opens eyes to know good and evil just as well as yielding to it, except resisting it has no negative consequences, and is accompanied with blessings instead of cursings.

This is why it was called the tree of "knowledge of good and evil," because whether they resisted or yielded to the temptation to partake of it, their eyes would have been opened, for it was the exposure to the temptation, and not the tree, that opened their eyes, and they chose the lesser part.

[LoveIsTruth]

Modified another passage in the OP as follows:

Neither did Eve, for the very same reason, make a good choice in the garden for her own children and descendants, contrary to what many erroneously assert. The good choice would have been to resist the temptation of the devil, which resistance would have opened their eyes without any transgression required, (just like Jesus had his eyes opened), and thus enable them to have children in the garden of Eden without a fall, exactly as the Father had commanded them.

That, was the good choice,-- to resists the temptation instead of yielding to it,-- and they dropped the ball. To deny this truth is foolishness, contradicts the scriptures, and worse yet, it makes God a liar, which is a very bad logic indeed.

And, yes, it was an honest mistake on Eve's part (to partake of the fruit), to be sure, but a mistake nevertheless. Without understanding this, one cannot understand the true nature of the fall, nor the real need for an atonement. Because there WAS another way. A much better way indeed!

[LoveIsTruth]

Refined the passage in the OP further:

Neither did Eve, for the very same reason, make a good choice in the garden for her own children and descendants, contrary to what many erroneously assert. For "the Lord God ... showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents." (2 Nephi 2:21) And that, by definition, was not a good choice by the parents for their posterity!

The good choice would have been to resist the temptation of the devil, which resistance would have opened their eyes without any transgression required, (just like Jesus had his eyes opened by resisting temptations instead of yielding to them), and thus enable them to have children in the garden of Eden without a fall, giving their posterity a paradise right from the start, similar to that which will exist again for untold billions of children in the Millennium, exactly as the Father had commanded them.

That, was the good choice,-- to resists the temptation instead of yielding to it,-- and they dropped the ball. To deny this truth is foolishness, contradicts the scriptures, and worse yet, it makes God a liar, which is a very bad logic indeed.

And, yes, it was an honest mistake on Eve's part (to partake of the fruit), to be sure, but a mistake nevertheless. Without understanding this, one cannot understand the true nature of the fall, nor the real need for an atonement. Because there WAS another way. A much better way indeed!

[LoveIsTruth]

The second founding of Zion is 2000 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which is 200 years since the restoration of his Church in the latter days. And our calendar is 3 years off relative to the life of the Savior.

So will Zion, all but die and be resurrected at that time, and when it does, all the world combined will not be able to move her out of her place, for God will be there and He will defend her.

• "for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.
  What shall then answer the messengers of the nations? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it."
  (Isaiah 14:31-32; 2 Nephi 24:31-32)

Hence is the second founding, in preparation to the second coming. And the second coming is 2300 years after the first coming of the Savior.

[LoveIsTruth]

Expanded the following section in the OP:

• "Therefore, they have drunk out of the cup of the wrath of God, which justice could no more deny unto them than it could deny that Adam should fall because of his partaking of the forbidden fruit; therefore, mercy could have claim on them no more forever." (Mosiah 3:26)

And that too is a "part of the plan." [So being "part of the plan" does not mean you are doing the right thing, because the plan accounts for both good and evil, and rewards everyone according to their works. Therefore hell itself is also "a part of the plan," but it doesn't mean it is recommended! In fact, it is forbidden, though you are definitely free to choose it against the Father's commandments. Just like Adam was free to choose to eat of the forbidden fruit against the Father's commandment. Both these choices are unwise, according to the scripture above, that's why they were put in the same sentence together, because one illustrates the other, because they are both wrong choices!

Moreover, in the temple we learn that God said: "And we will allow Lucifer, our common enemy, to tempt them and to try them."

If Adam was “supposed” to partake of the forbidden fruit, and “did the right thing” in doing so, then there was no temptation. There was nothing to tempt him with because, supposedly, partaking of the fruit was “the right thing to do.” Such conclusion insults logic and reason, and makes meaningless what God have said. Therefore to believe such nonsense is a self-contradiction, and thus is clearly false.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

“It is generally supposed that Brigham Young was the author of the doctrine which places Adam as the patriarchal head of the human race, and ascribes to him the dignity of future presidency over this earth and its inhabitants, when the work of redemption shall have been completed. Those who read the Prophet's treatise on the Priesthood in the text above will have their opinions corrected upon this subject; for clearly it is the word of the Lord through the Prophet Joseph Smith which established that doctrine. The utterances of President Brigham Young but repeat and expound the doctrine which the Prophet here sets forth. (HC 3:388) Some of the sectarian ministers are saying that we ‘Mormons’ are ashamed of the doctrine announced by President Brigham Young to the effect that Adam will thus be the God of this world. No, friends, it is not that we are ashamed of that doctrine. If you see any change come over our countenances when this doctrine is named, it is surprise, astonishment, that any one at all capable of grasping the largeness and extent of the universe the grandeur of existence and the possibilities in man for growth, for progress, should be so lean of intellect, should have such a paucity of understanding, as to call it into question at all. This is what our change of countenance means not shame for the doctrine Brigham Young taught.”
(The Mormon Doctrine Of Deity, B. H. Roberts, pg 42-43)

“These are the sons and daughters of Adam -- the Ancient of Days -- the Father and God of the whole human family. These are the sons and daughters of Michael, who is Adam, the father of the spirits of all our race. These are the sons and daughters of Eve, the Mother of a world. What a practical Unitarianism is this! The Christ is not dragged from his heavenly estate, to be mere mortal, but mortals are lifted up to his celestial plane. He is still the God-Man; but he is one among many brethren who are also God-Men. Moreover, Jesus is one of a grand order of Saviours. Every world has its distinctive Saviour, and every dispensation its Christ.”
(Eliza R. Snow, Women of Mormondom pg. 191-192)

This Doctrine is no anomaly, it was known and accepted by many. And it was not "Brigham's Doctrine", It was revealed to Joseph Smith and he taught it to many. If this doctrine is distasteful or even offensive to you, then the Restoration of Gospel is distasteful or offensive to you because this is a Restored Truth.

“Eve -- immortal Eve -- came down to earth to become the Mother of a race. How [does she] become the Mother of a world of mortals except by herself again becoming mortal? How become mortal only by transgressing the laws of immortality? How only by ‘eating of the forbidden fruit’ by partaking of the elements of a mortal earth, in which the seed of death was everywhere scattered?…
Eve, then, came down to be the Mother of a world. Glorious Mother, capable of dying at the very beginning to give life to her offspring, that through mortality the eternal life of the Gods might be given to her sons and daughters… Did woman hesitate a moment then? Did motherhood refuse the cup for her own sake, or did she with infinite love, take it and drink for her children's sake? The Mother had plunged down, from the pinnacle of her celestial throne, to earth, to taste of death that her children might have everlasting life… A Goddess came down from her mansions of glory to bring the spirits of her children down after her, in their myriads of branches and their hundreds of generations! She was again a mortal Mother now… Eve stands, then, first—the God-Mother…”
(Eliza R. Snow, Women of Mormondom, pg. 197-200)

It is important to understand, Adam became Adam by Atoning for the Sins of His Fathers Children, He was the Christ of that world. And, having performed the Atonement and having been Resurrected by His Father, he has life unto himself. But Eve does not. Even so, she, having faith in her husband, did not shrink from becoming mortal again to provide mortal bodies for her spirit children. She relied on Adam to sustain her life during childbirth. And after raising their mortal children, they, Adam and Eve, returned to their Celestial Home and the seeds of death and mortality were purged from their bodies.

Yes, Adam and Eve were immortal resurrected Celestial beings, never to taste of death again, and that is what happened, They Did Not Sin, So They Did Not Die.

[LoveIsTruth]

I am not going to make a prophet an "offender for a word." But he and you are clearly incorrect.

Eve made a serious mistake, and so did Adam. Why? Because there was a better way. What way? To resist the temptation of the devil, and to keep the commandments of the Father.

It is astounding, that it came to this, that one has to argue for these obvious things! Where is the consistency of reason in those who contradict such fundamental principles as keeping God's commandments? The reason is gone from them, in favor of blindly following supposed "authority" even when that "authority" is clearly an opinion of a mistaken man, for it contradicts the scriptures, reason, and the revealed word of God!

Where is logic? Where is reason? Anyone?

Thanks.

Is the prophet then no prophet, because he made such mistakes? Of course not! He is still a prophet, because his error was an honest one. And God forgives honest mistakes, even to prophets! Thank God for that, or there would be no hope for any of us!

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I am not going to make a prophet an "offender for a word." But he and you are clearly incorrect.

Eve made a serious mistake, and so did Adam. Why? Because there was a better way. What way? To resist the temptation of the devil, and to keep the commandments of the Father.

It is astounding, that it came to this, that one has to argue for these obvious things! Where is the consistency of reason in those who contradict such fundamental principles as keeping God's commandments? The reason is gone from them, in favor of blindly following supposed "authority" even when that "authority" is clearly an opinion of a mistaken man, for it contradicts the scriptures, reason, and revealed word of God!

Where is logic? Where is reason? Anyone?

Thanks.

What man is mistaken?
Joseph Smith? Brigham Young?
They taught this, who are you to tell them they are wrong?

"Man is punished for his own sins and not for Adam's transgression".
Not Sin, but Transgression.
"If you want to remain in the garden forever as an immortal, don't eat the fruit."
They violated the requirements to remain immortal, but that is not Sin.
Adam and Eve, being immortal, could only produce immortal offspring.
For them to produce mortal offspring, they had to partake of the dusts of a fallen world full of the seeds of death.
They had to take on mortality to provide mortal bodies.
It was a great sacrifice necessary to provide mortal bodies for their spirit children.
Not only was there not a better way, there was no other way.

I have presented just some of my evidence, but you have presented a hollow claim.
You provide nothing to make it "clear".
That which is asserted with no evidence is dismissed with evidence.
It is you, sir, that is wrong. Not Joseph, Not Brigham, Not Eliza, and not I.

[LoveIsTruth]

What man is mistaken?
Joseph Smith? Brigham Young?
They taught this, who are you to tell them they are wrong?

If they taught this they are wrong. Who am I? The one who is right on this point.

"Man is punished for his own sins and not for Adam's transgression".
Not Sin, but Transgression.

Agreed. I said the same thing.

"If you want to remain in the garden forever as an immortal, don't eat the fruit."
They violated the requirements to remain immortal, but that is not Sin.

Yes. It was not a sin, but an error. Just like a child stepping in front of a speeding truck is killed not because of his sin, but because of his error.
The difference between sin and transgression is knowledge. Both sin and transgression are a mistake, but to commit sin you need to know good and evil and choose against the light. This Adam did not do, for his eyes were not yet opened. But a serious error/transgression it was for sure. Look at death and destruction that came out of it. There is no question Adam made a mistake, because he did it against the commandment of the Father who said "I FORBID it," and offered them a much better way instead. What way? To resist temptation and to keep His commandments, which if they did, their eyes would have been opened without transgression, (just like Jesus' eyes were opened by resisting temptations instead of yielding to them), and they would have had immortal children in paradise, without the fall, similar to that which will prevail in the Millennium, of which is written: "And there shall be no sorrow because there is no death." (D&C 101:29).

Adam and Eve, being immortal, could only produce immortal offspring.

Yes. It is way better than mortal offspring, and it was precisely what the Father commanded them to do: a) to have immortal children, and b) not to fall.

They disobeyed Him on both counts, hence was their fall.

For them to produce mortal offspring, they had to partake of the dusts of a fallen world full of the seeds of death.
They had to take on mortality to provide mortal bodies.

Yes. And Father commanded them a much better way than that, had they listened to him.

It was a great sacrifice necessary to provide mortal bodies for their spirit children.

It was a great error. Not a sacrifice.

"Will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed? And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law" ( D&C 132:10-11) And the law was: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, ... remember that I forbid it." (Moses 3:17) That was the law.

Not only was there not a better way, there was no other way.

That was, and still is Satan's lie. In fact it is his greatest lie, for which many still fall, especially in this church, which contradicts the word of God that he gives no commandments to men without providing a way for them to accomplish them.

Transgressing commandments is NOT accomplishing them.

I have presented just some of my evidence,

Your only evidence are opinions of fallible men, at odds with revealed word of God, scripture, and reason itself.

but you have presented a hollow claim.
You provide nothing to make it "clear".

Then you have not read the OP. I covered almost every point and angle. You refuted none of them. You simply pretended I didn't say anything.

Those who can read, will judge for themselves, though.

That which is asserted with no evidence is dismissed with evidence.

Indeed. And I have dismissed this lunacy you are presenting with incontrovertible evidence: No less than with the words of God himself. Argue with him, if you must. He is right though, and you are not.

It is you, sir, that is wrong. Not Joseph, Not Brigham, Not Eliza, and not I.

Prove it. I have proven my side. You did not.

Good luck.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

What man is mistaken?
Joseph Smith? Brigham Young?
They taught this, who are you to tell them they are wrong?

If they taught this they are wrong. Who am I? The one who is right on this point.

"Man is punished for his own sins and not for Adam's transgression".
Not Sin, but Transgression.

Agreed. I said the same thing.

"If you want to remain in the garden forever as an immortal, don't eat the fruit."
They violated the requirements to remain immortal, but that is not Sin.

Yes. It was not a sin, but an error. Just like a child stepping in front of a speeding truck is killed not because of his sin, but because of his error.
The difference between sin and transgression is knowledge. Both sin and transgression are a mistake, but to commit sin you need to know good and evil and choose against the light. This Adam did not do, for his eyes were not yet opened. But a serious error/transgression it was for sure. Look at death and destruction that came out of it. There is no question Adam made a mistake, because he did it against the commandment of the Father who said "I FORBID it."

Adam and Eve, being immortal, could only produce immortal offspring.

Yes. It is way better than mortal offspring, and it was precisely what the Father commanded them to do: a) to have immortal children, and b) not to fall.

They disobeyed Him on both counts, hence was their fall.

For them to produce mortal offspring, they had to partake of the dusts of a fallen world full of the seeds of death.
They had to take on mortality to provide mortal bodies.

Yes. And Father commanded them a much better way than that, had they listened to him.

It was a great sacrifice necessary to provide mortal bodies for their spirit children.

It was a great error. Not a sacrifice.

"Will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed? And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law" ( D&C 132:10-11) And the law was: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, ... remember that I forbid it." (Moses 3:17) That was the law.

Not only was there not a better way, there was no other way.

That was, and still is Satan's lie. In fact it is his greatest lie, for which many still fall, especially in this church, which contradicts the word of God that he gives no commandments to men without providing a way for them to accomplish them.

Transgressing commandments is NOT accomplishing them.

I have presented just some of my evidence,

Your only evidence are opinions of fallible men, at odds with revealed word of God, scripture, and reason itself.

but you have presented a hollow claim.
You provide nothing to make it "clear".

Then you have not read the OP. I covered almost every point and angle. You refuted none of them. You simply pretended I didn't say anything.

Those who can read, will judge for themselves, though.

That which is asserted with no evidence is dismissed with evidence.

Indeed. And I have dismissed this lunacy you are presenting with incontrovertible evidence: No less than with the words of God himself. Argue with him, if you must. He is right though, and you are not.

It is you, sir, that is wrong. Not Joseph, Not Brigham, Not Eliza, and not I.

Prove it. I have proven my side. You did not.

Good luck.

Everything that happened in the Garden went exactly according to plan.
Adam and eve did exactly what was expected of them.
Before you criticize them anymore, you aught to find out who they actually are.

The only proof you provide is your own assertion.
Most everything you say here is wrong.
2 Nephi 2 is all about the necessity of mortal birth and death.
But you assert that Adam was commanded to have immortal children?
Where, in any writings anywhere, did you get that from?
If Adam and Eve had imperfect but immortal children, they would remain
in their sins forever thus not being able to progress.

Joseph Smith IS the key holder of this dispensation. He holds those keys even now. There is no one in mortality with stewardship over him, he holds stewardship over all of us. So how can anyone be qualified to say he is wrong. THEY ARE NOT.
Joseph's and Brigham's writings contain the descriptions of what actually happened in the Garden and why, maybe you should read them
before you condemn yourself anymore by saying they are wrong.

You not knowing, not understanding, or not believing does not make you right and everyone else wrong, Specially not the Prophet of the Dispensation, the Prophet of the Restoration, The primary key holder of our time.

[LoveIsTruth]

Added another section to the OP (thanks Hidingbehindmyhandle):

"It [partaking of the forbidden fruit] was a great sacrifice necessary to provide mortal bodies for their spirit children" fallacy.
It was a great error. Not a divinely appointed sacrifice.

"Will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed? And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law" ( D&C 132:10-11) And the law was: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, ... remember that I forbid it." (Moses 3:17) That was the law.

Secondly, the Father commanded them to provide immortal (not fallen) bodies for his children, instead of mortal and fallen ones. Why? Because he commanded them to multiply and replenish the earth and NOT to fall by partaking the fruit. Adam and Eve failed on both counts, which was the reason of their fall.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Lots of false doctrine here. It''s fine if you prefer fairy stories but the Prophets in the beginning of this dispensation have revealed and explained everything so the truth is available if you prefer truth.

There is someone else here that understands, thanks.

Added another section to the OP (thanks Hidingbehindmyhandle):

"It [partaking of the forbidden fruit] was a great sacrifice necessary to provide mortal bodies for their spirit children" fallacy.
It was a great error. Not a divinely appointed sacrifice.

"Will I receive at your hands that which I have not appointed? And will I appoint unto you, saith the Lord, except it be by law" ( D&C 132:10-11) And the law was: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, ... remember that I forbid it." (Moses 3:17) That was the law.

Secondly, the Father commanded them to provide immortal (not fallen) bodies for his children, instead of mortal and fallen ones. Why? Because he commanded them to multiply and replenish the earth and NOT to fall by partaking the fruit. Adam and Eve failed on both counts, which was the reason of their fall.

Added another section to the OP (thanks Hidingbehindmyhandle):

I have no idea what this means.

You are wrong, Joseph revealed much on this topic of which you are ignorant.
Adam and Eve did have non-mortal children not born of the dusts of this earth,
Those children are the spirit children that came to this earth to receive mortal bodies.

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God. Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be! Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys, and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)

"President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World’s End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290

Adam and Eve, before coming to this earth, were Exalted Celestial Immortal Beings completely incapable of sin.
LoveIsTruth, you have way to much to learn. Don't contend against the truth until you at least know what it is.

[LoveIsTruth]

Everything that happened in the Garden went exactly according to plan.
Adam and eve did exactly what was expected of them.

Save us all some time, and read the following section in the OP (it's title is almost exact quote of your lunacy):
"They behaved exactly how God expected them to. It was all part of the plan; therefore they did the right thing" fallacy.

you assert that Adam was commanded to have immortal children?
Where, in any writings anywhere, did you get that from?

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" (Moses 2:28) combined with "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, ... remember that I forbid it." (Moses 3:17)

So Adam was immortal, and was commanded to multiply in his immortal state, which can only mean immortal children. Plus he was expressly forbidden to enter mortality. 2+2=4

Taken together, these two commandments are equivalent to a commandment to have immortal children.

If Adam and Eve had imperfect but immortal children, they would remain
in their sins forever thus not being able to progress.

People in the Millennium will "grow up without sin unto salvation" and "there shall be no sorrow because there is no death." (D&C 101:29). A blink of an eye to transform is not worthy to be called death, so the Lord says "no death."

It bears to reason that the same, or similar thing would have happened to Adam's children, had he not fallen, but instead had his eyes opened by resisting temptation, instead of yielding to it (just like Jesus had his eyes opened without a any transgression).

Joseph Smith IS the key holder of this dispensation. He holds those keys even now. There is no one in mortality with stewardship over him, he holds stewardship over all of us. So how can anyone be qualified to say he is wrong.

Joseph himself said he was liable to be wrong, just like any other man, when he was giving his private opinions. His words, not mine.

Joseph's and Brigham's writings contain the descriptions of what actually happened in the Garden and why, maybe you should read them

If I remember correctly Brigham did say that Eve made a mistake in partaking of the fruit.

Whatever it may be, we have revealed word of God himself, which clearly proves what I have said. I defy earth and hell combined to disprove it.

Good luck, my friend.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Everything that happened in the Garden went exactly according to plan.
Adam and eve did exactly what was expected of them.

Save us all some time, and read the following section in the OP (it's title is almost exact quote of your lunacy):
"They behaved exactly how God expected them to. It was all part of the plan; therefore they did the right thing" fallacy.

you assert that Adam was commanded to have immortal children?
Where, in any writings anywhere, did you get that from?

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" (Moses 2:28) combined with "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, ... remember that I forbid it." (Moses 3:17)

So Adam was immortal, and was commanded to multiply in his immortal state, which can only mean immortal children. Plus he was expressly forbidden to enter mortality. 2+2=4

Taken together, these two commandments are equivalent to a commandment to have immortal children.

If Adam and Eve had imperfect but immortal children, they would remain
in their sins forever thus not being able to progress.

People in the Millennium will "grow up without sin unto salvation" and "there shall be no sorrow because there is no death." (D&C 101:29). A blink of an eye to transform is not worthy to be called death, so the Lord says "no death."

It bears to reason that the same, or similar thing would have happened to Adam's children, had he not fallen, but instead had his eyes opened by resisting temptation, instead of yielding to it (just like Jesus had his eyes opened without a any transgression).

Joseph Smith IS the key holder of this dispensation. He holds those keys even now. There is no one in mortality with stewardship over him, he holds stewardship over all of us. So how can anyone be qualified to say he is wrong.

Joseph himself said he was liable to be wrong, just like any other man, when he was giving his private opinions. His words, not mine.

Joseph's and Brigham's writings contain the descriptions of what actually happened in the Garden and why, maybe you should read them

If I remember correctly Brigham did say that Eve made a mistake in partaking of the fruit.

Whatever it may be, we have revealed word of God himself, which clearly proves what I have said. I defy earth and hell combined to disprove it.

Good luck, my friend.

You teach false doctrine.
Save us all the time and false teachings, read the writings of the prophets of the restoration
and learn what it is that they actually restored, the truth.

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret…We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible… The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power - to do what? Why what the Father did. The answer is obvious - in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And, I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me... What did Jesus Do? ‘Why I do the things I saw my father do when worlds came rolling into existence, my Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my father so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, an it will exalt Him in glory, He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.’ So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn the First Principles of the Gospel, about which so much has been said. When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top…It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Excerpts from the King Follet Discourse, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345-348)

“My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views. Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, He has a body, with parts the same as you and I have; and is capable of showing forth His works to organized beings, as, for instance, in the world in which we live, it is the result of the knowledge and infinite wisdom that dwell in His organized body. His son Jesus Christ has become a personage of tabernacle, and has a body like his father. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord, and issues forth from Himself, and may properly be called God's minister to execute His will in immensity; being called to govern by His influence and power; but He is not a person of tabernacle as we are, and as our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ are. The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about his father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal. Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, and thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming ‘great is the mystery of godliness,’ and tell nothing. It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, ‘it is an immaterial substance!’ What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing.” (JD 1: 50-52. Capitols in Original.)

Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. This is a key for you. The faithful will become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the idea that we have a father. Adam is my Father; (this I will explain to you at some future time;) but it does not prove that he is not my father, if I become a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.” (JD 6:274-275)

A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow, the life giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in s remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegraye and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal. The ensign p. 5?6; First Presidency Message; President Spencer w. Kimbal; Absolute Truth; Sept 1978

“One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God… [and] Our God and Father in heaven… When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have written and spoken – He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do… I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone… Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told… Treasure up these things in your hearts.” (JD 1: 50-51, CAPITALS in the original.)

[LoveIsTruth]

If Joseph said there was no other way, Joseph was wrong.
If Brigham said there was no other way, Brigham was wrong.
If Eliza said there was no other way, Eliza was wrong.
If you say there was no other way, you are wrong.

Why?

Because we know that Satan said there was no other way, and he was wrong. In fact he lied.

How do I know that?

Because God has said, "Whatever I command, you CAN do it." And he does not contradict himself.
Therefore Adam could have had children and NOT partake of the forbidden fruit.
In fact if he resisted the temptation enough times his eyes would have began to be opened enough to have children, for it is the exposure to temptation, and not the tree that opens eyes. Christ being a perfect example of that: having the same veil over his mind as Adam had, Jesus got his eyes opened to know good and evil by resisting temptation, and NOT by yielding to it.

Thus, there indeed was another way to open Adam and Eve's eyes, and that was to resist the temptation and to keep the commandment.

Anything else would make God a self-contradictory God and a liar.

I'd rather admit, that you, Eliza, Brigham, Joseph and the whole world were wrong, than to say that God contradicted himself, because to say that is a lie.

God was right. And you, Eliza, Brigham, Joseph and anyone else who repeats Satan's lie that "there was no other way" is wrong.

As God lives!

Deal with it.

It is the truth.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

None so blind as those who will not see.
Satan tells 1000 truths and one lie, you believe the lie and don't believe the truths.
Open rebellion against the Prophet of God.
Don't look now but your apostasy is showing.

[LoveIsTruth]

None so blind as those who will not see.
Satan tells 1000 truths and one lie, you believe the lie and don't believe the truths.
Open rebellion against the Prophet of God.
Don't look now but your apostasy is showing.

Yes indeed. And they also said that Jesus had a devil.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

So now you are implying that I believe that.
Yow are baring false witness against me.
Typical, can't argue the facts, switch to ad hominem attacks.

A question , Can God Sin?
I hope you believe that he can not, it is no longer in his nature.
But if you do believe that God can't sin, why do you accuse him of sinning in the garden?
And you will say, I didn't accuse God of sinning, I accused Adam of sinning.
But when you accuse Adam of sinning, you ARE accusing God of sinning!

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

Notice that Brigham Said this before the general body of the church in general conference.

[LoveIsTruth]

A question , Can God Sin?
I hope you believe that he can not, it is no longer in his nature.
But if you do believe that God can't sin, why do you accuse him of sinning in the garden?
And you will say, I didn't accuse God of sinning, I accused Adam of sinning.

I did not accuse Adam of sinning in the garden. I said he could not sin, until after his eyes were opened. You did not read my article, but you are quick to criticize it. That does not make much sense, my friend.

But when you accuse Adam of sinning, you ARE accusing God of sinning!

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

Notice that Brigham Said this before the general body of the church in general conference.

Secondly, the implication that Adam is the same person as Elohim, the Father of Jesus, and of yours and mine spirit, is wrong. No matter who implied it. They may be alike at this point, but not the same. And the Father is greater than Adam. Adam committed errors, and have sinned after the fall. The Father has no error in him at all.

So the implication is false.

Here is a scripture for you:

"Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation." (D&C 29:40)

And another:

"Wherefore, the Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in those scriptures which have been given of him.
He suffered temptations but gave no heed unto them." ( D&C 20:21-22)

And another:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22)

Do you now discern the difference between these two people?

It is important, my friend.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

I read your posts, they do say that he sinned.
You said Adam and Eve disobeyed a commandment of God.
And they did something they were expected not to do.
That is Sin.

Jesus himself says that he is the Son of Adam.

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

And Brigham said it and Wilford agreed.

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

The real problem here is that we have been taught one level of understanding of the scriptures. And we cling to that understanding.
But that level of understanding was meant to bring us to the next level of understanding so that we could accept further light and knowledge.
But some want no further light and knowledge believing they have all the light and knowledge they need.
But the Canonized scripture are just the common denominator, not the full truth.

Is the General Handbook of Instruction in the Canonized scripture?
is the endowment in the Canonized scripture?
is the sealing ordinance in the Canonized scripture?
is the resurrection ordinance in the Canonized scripture?

So I have proven the Canonized scripture do not contain all the knowledge necessary to becoming a God.
Is it then possible that the restoration of the gospel acually included more than just the Book of Mormon and the D&C?
Is it possible that the Teachings of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, ... include light and knowledge beyond Canonized scripture ?

well here is a bunch of of it - feast on it if you dare - and there is much much more.

“Eloheim looks round upon the eternity of matter and said to His associates and those that He was pleased to call upon at the time for His counselors, with regard to the Elements, Worlds, Planets, Kingdoms, and Thrones; said He, ‘Yahovah Michael, see that Eternal Matter on all sides, this way and that way; we have already created Worlds upon Worlds, shall we create another World? Yes, go and organize the elements yonder in space…Yahovah Michael go and create a world, make it, organize it, form it; and then put upon it everything in all the variety that you have see[n], that you have been in the habit of being associated with in other worlds, of beasts, birds, fowls, fish, and every insect, and creeping thing, and finally, the whole eternity of element is full of life, bring it together and make of it living creatures’. Yahovah Michael goes down and does as he is told. What I am now going to tell you, will no doubt astonish the whole of you.
When Yahovah Michael had organized the world, and brought from another kingdom the beasts, fish, fowl, and insects, and every tree, and plant with which we are acquainted, and thousands that we never saw, when He had filled the Earth with animal and vegetable life, Michael or Adam goes down to the new made world, and there he stays.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see the Essential Brigham Young pg. 94)

“I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.”10  says Joseph Smith (History of the Church, 6:477; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on June 16, 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois, Grove East of Temple; reported by Thomas Bullock)

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873 How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first women upon this earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth..."well," says one " Why was Adam called Adam"? He was the first man on earth, and its framer and maker. He, with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said, "I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has, and where is the mystery?

Brigham Young 1852-08-15 I will now read a little in this book, called the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, pertaining to the subject we had before us last Sabbath. I will read a part of a short revelation, in order to exhibit some items of doctrine that are not generally understood, although it is before the people. All people who are disposed, have the privilege of reading this book for themselves; for it has been published to the world for some years. The Saints read it and have the privilege of understanding it, if they choose. Still, as I observed, we are in the school and keep learning, and we do not expect to cease learning while we live on earth; and when we pass through the veil, we expect still to continue to learn and increase our fund of information. That may appear a strange idea to some; but it is for the plain and simple reason that we are not capacitated to receive all knowledge at once. We must therefore receive a little here and a little there. [6:286:4]

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret…We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible… The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power - to do what? Why what the Father did. The answer is obvious - in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And, I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me... What did Jesus Do? ‘Why I do the things I saw my father do when worlds came rolling into existence, my Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my father so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, an it will exalt Him in glory, He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.’ So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn the First Principles of the Gospel, about which so much has been said. When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top…It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Excerpts from the King Follet Discourse, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345-348)

“My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views. Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, He has a body, with parts the same as you and I have; and is capable of showing forth His works to organized beings, as, for instance, in the world in which we live, it is the result of the knowledge and infinite wisdom that dwell in His organized body. His son Jesus Christ has become a personage of tabernacle, and has a body like his father. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord, and issues forth from Himself, and may properly be called God's minister to execute His will in immensity; being called to govern by His influence and power; but He is not a person of tabernacle as we are, and as our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ are. The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about his father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal. Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, and thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming ‘great is the mystery of godliness,’ and tell nothing. It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, ‘it is an immaterial substance!’ What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing.” (JD 1: 50-52. Capitols in Original.)

A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow, the life giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in s remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegraye and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal. The ensign p. 5?6; First Presidency Message; President Spencer w. Kimbal; Absolute Truth; Sept 1978

Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. This is a key for you. The faithful will become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the idea that we have a father. Adam is my Father; (this I will explain to you at some future time;) but it does not prove that he is not my father, if I become a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.” (JD 6:274-275)

“One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God… [and] Our God and Father in heaven… When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have written and spoken – He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do… I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone… Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told… Treasure up these things in your hearts.” (JD 1: 50-51, CAPITALS in the original.)

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God. Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be! Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys, and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)


"President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World’s End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290

The testimonies are simple and clear, easy to understand and hard to deny, yet many do not understand and many deny.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

Has anyone here ever watched the show, Kitchen Nightmares?
Gordon Ramsey goes to a restaurant that is failing at the request of the owner to help him.
Gordon is critical, obnoxious, harsh, condemning, ... And the owner hates him.
Right up until the owner says you're right, will you help me anyway.
and Gordon then becomes the most benevolent person possible,
showering the restaurant and owner with all the gifts, training, resources
needed to become successful. And then he sees them through it.
And then he profusely praises them for what little success he sees in them.
And then the owner loves him and can not say enough good about him.

Please say to the prophets, I want your help.

I plead with all to search the writings of the prophets of the restoration.
There is such glorious doctrine there. And every doctrine that I have
found in their writings I have also eventually found in the scriptures,
hidden and incomplete, but still there.

Please, I plead with all not to ignore those who are among the greatest men to ever
walk the face of this world, the prophets of this dispensation. Their writings are
there for us to know more of the true identity and nature of God and His Son.

[LoveIsTruth]

I read your posts, they do say that he sinned.
You said Adam and Eve disobeyed a commandment of God.
And they did something they were expected not to do.
That is Sin.

If you read my posts, at least the ones addressed to you, you do not understand them. This one was TODAY:

Yes. It was not a sin, but an error. Just like a child stepping in front of a speeding truck is killed not because of his sin, but because of his error.
The difference between sin and transgression is knowledge. Both sin and transgression are a mistake, but to commit sin you need to know good and evil and choose against the light. This Adam did not do, for his eyes were not yet opened [to know good from evil]. But a serious error/transgression it was for sure.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=43305&start=210#p804400

Jesus himself says that he is the Son of Adam.

In the same way you and I are descendants of Adam.

You are confusing your Heavenly Father and Adam. According to the scriptures I gave you in the previous post they cannot possibly be the same person. Unless your logic is seriously missing a screw. One yielded to temptation, the other never did. Anybody home? The lights seem to be on.

The testimonies are simple and clear, easy to understand and hard to deny, yet many do not understand and many deny.

The immediate and direct Father of Jesus is not Adam. If Brigham Young believed that it was, then he was wrong. However there is a way to interpret his words without arriving at this erroneous conclusion.

In any case, even if he was wrong. What's the big deal? He did the best he knew how. And the keys he held were valid. The rest is irrelevant.

[Hidingbehindmyhandle]

It is not my logic, I am not confused. I have much that makes it clear to me.
Study it all and then argue with against it:

“Eloheim looks round upon the eternity of matter and said to His associates and those that He was pleased to call upon at the time for His counselors, with regard to the Elements, Worlds, Planets, Kingdoms, and Thrones; said He, ‘Yahovah Michael, see that Eternal Matter on all sides, this way and that way; we have already created Worlds upon Worlds, shall we create another World? Yes, go and organize the elements yonder in space…Yahovah Michael go and create a world, make it, organize it, form it; and then put upon it everything in all the variety that you have see[n], that you have been in the habit of being associated with in other worlds, of beasts, birds, fowls, fish, and every insect, and creeping thing, and finally, the whole eternity of element is full of life, bring it together and make of it living creatures’. Yahovah Michael goes down and does as he is told. What I am now going to tell you, will no doubt astonish the whole of you.
When Yahovah Michael had organized the world, and brought from another kingdom the beasts, fish, fowl, and insects, and every tree, and plant with which we are acquainted, and thousands that we never saw, when He had filled the Earth with animal and vegetable life, Michael or Adam goes down to the new made world, and there he stays.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see the Essential Brigham Young pg. 94)

“I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.”10  says Joseph Smith (History of the Church, 6:477; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on June 16, 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois, Grove East of Temple; reported by Thomas Bullock)

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873 How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first women upon this earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth..."well," says one " Why was Adam called Adam"? He was the first man on earth, and its framer and maker. He, with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said, "I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has, and where is the mystery?

Brigham Young 1852-08-15 I will now read a little in this book, called the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, pertaining to the subject we had before us last Sabbath. I will read a part of a short revelation, in order to exhibit some items of doctrine that are not generally understood, although it is before the people. All people who are disposed, have the privilege of reading this book for themselves; for it has been published to the world for some years. The Saints read it and have the privilege of understanding it, if they choose. Still, as I observed, we are in the school and keep learning, and we do not expect to cease learning while we live on earth; and when we pass through the veil, we expect still to continue to learn and increase our fund of information. That may appear a strange idea to some; but it is for the plain and simple reason that we are not capacitated to receive all knowledge at once. We must therefore receive a little here and a little there. [6:286:4]

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret…We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible… The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power - to do what? Why what the Father did. The answer is obvious - in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And, I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me... What did Jesus Do? ‘Why I do the things I saw my father do when worlds came rolling into existence, my Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my father so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, an it will exalt Him in glory, He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.’ So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn the First Principles of the Gospel, about which so much has been said. When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top…It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Excerpts from the King Follet Discourse, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345-348)

“My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views. Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, He has a body, with parts the same as you and I have; and is capable of showing forth His works to organized beings, as, for instance, in the world in which we live, it is the result of the knowledge and infinite wisdom that dwell in His organized body. His son Jesus Christ has become a personage of tabernacle, and has a body like his father. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord, and issues forth from Himself, and may properly be called God's minister to execute His will in immensity; being called to govern by His influence and power; but He is not a person of tabernacle as we are, and as our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ are. The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about his father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal. Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, and thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming ‘great is the mystery of godliness,’ and tell nothing. It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, ‘it is an immaterial substance!’ What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing.” (JD 1: 50-52. Capitols in Original.)

A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow, the life giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in s remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegraye and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal. The ensign p. 5?6; First Presidency Message; President Spencer w. Kimbal; Absolute Truth; Sept 1978

Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. This is a key for you. The faithful will become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the idea that we have a father. Adam is my Father; (this I will explain to you at some future time;) but it does not prove that he is not my father, if I become a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.” (JD 6:274-275)

“One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God… [and] Our God and Father in heaven… When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have written and spoken – He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do… I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone… Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told… Treasure up these things in your hearts.” (JD 1: 50-51, CAPITALS in the original.)

“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)

“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God. Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be! Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys, and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)


"President Young said There never was any world created & Peopled Nor ever would be but what would be redeemed by the shedding of the blood of the Savior of the world. If we are Ever Exalted and Crowned in the presence of God we shall become Saviors of a world which we shall create & people. I know why the Blood of Jesus was shed. I know why the blood of Joseph, & Hiram & others was shed and the blood of theirs will be shed. It is all to answer a purpose and has its Effect. Adam made this world and Suffered himself to take a body and subject himself to sin that Redemption & Exaltation might come to a man. Without descending below all things we Cannot ascend above all things. There never will be any Change in the gospel of Salvation, It is an Eternal gospel and the same in all worlds and always will be to the Endless age of eternity. There will never was a period but what worlds existed & never will be, they all have the same Gosple & Law of salvation." -Wilford Woodruff, Waiting For the World’s End, The Dairies of Wilford Woodruff, Edited by Susan Staker, Pg.290