Follow the Prophet is Doctrinal!

[freedomforall]

I'm pointing out how flawed and non-doctrinal the argument is. You mad, bro?
If you don't like having all the holes in your argument easily identified, then post a more solid and doctrinally sound argument that isn't so stupid.

I couldn't have said this any better directed at you. You don't want to provide sources, yet rattle on with your JD quotes and twisted verses...and actually want people to not challenge any of it.

It has already been established that the JD is not scripture, they are only spoken words by men with their own ideas. And then you start quoting stuff that appears to be non existent backed with arrogance and pomposity, and a little condescension.

You're on the wrong forum. There are many people here that know their scriptures and do not have to rely on hearsay to make a point.

[diligently seeking]

I'm pointing out how flawed and non-doctrinal the argument is. You mad, bro?
If you don't like having all the holes in your argument easily identified, then post a more solid and doctrinally sound argument that isn't so stupid.

Let your communication be yea yea or nay nay anything more than this cometh of evil. I fail at this too often. I often pray to not have an unconverted disposition, to figuratively with my interactions with God's kids, to not cut an ear off : see unconverted Peter. Is it any wonder nephi was told receiving the love of God in our hearts as it sheds itself abroad is the most joyous and desirable thing we can receive in this earth life? See the affects of what that looks like through Moroni 7:45-48 After Peter received the Holy Ghost / the love of God in his heart--it wasn't railing for railing. he was inclined to turn the other cheek and rejoice to be beaten for the cause of Christ and not beat back. There is a place for persuasive. communication -- however, should we not strive to have love interjected in all of it? After all, there isn't a law of God that doesn't hang upon that piller--the pillar of love. Anything more than this, if you believe Christ words- comes of evil.

[diligently seeking]

I just recently watched "The Passion of Christ" we all would do well in holy humble-reverence to watch this depiction of Christ's last 12 hours. What he went through is beyond words. To the very end he was-- as holy writ teaches us-- the Healer, the Comforter, the embodiment of love-- he was Love! To suffer abuse like he did and then utter those words shortly before he died for the Father to forgive his persecutors is beyond natural Fallen- man capacity...

Mosiah 3:19


Oh the strength and power that comes from being infused with love- his pure love. To grow through his holy Grace and be progressively as he is; that is, to emulate the Sacred Healer, is the greatest gift we can receve-- all other blessings flow from it...

[pjbrownie]

To hearken means to "listen respectfully." It doesn't necessarily mean to obey.

[freedomforall]

I'm pointing out how flawed and non-doctrinal the argument is. You mad, bro?
If you don't like having all the holes in your argument easily identified, then post a more solid and doctrinally sound argument that isn't so stupid.

Let your communication be yea yea or nay nay anything more than this cometh of evil. I fail at this too often. I often pray to not have an unconverted disposition, to figuratively with my interactions with God's kids, to not cut an ear off : see unconverted Peter. Is it any wonder nephi was told receiving the love of God in our hearts as it sheds itself abroad is the most joyous and desirable thing we can receive in this earth life? See the affects of what that looks like through Moroni 7:45-48 After Peter received the Holy Ghost / the love of God in his heart--it wasn't railing for railing. he was inclined to turn the other cheek and rejoice to be beaten for the cause of Christ and not beat back. There is a place for persuasive. communication -- however, should we not strive to have love interjected in all of it? After all, there isn't a law of God that doesn't hang upon that piller--the pillar of love. Anything more than this, if you believe Christ words- comes of evil.

So does mocking the church and its leaders. We've had many forum members do just that. This practice has to be hampered or the problem will become the norm.

[freedomforall]

To hearken means to "listen respectfully." It doesn't necessarily mean to obey.

But it sure helps. Why?

Abr. 3:25
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Doctrine and Covenants 1:38
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

There's no escaping it unless one arrives to a point of ignoring God and doing their own thing in or out of the church.

[Finrock]

To hearken means to "listen respectfully." It doesn't necessarily mean to obey.

But it sure helps. Why?

Abr. 3:25
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Doctrine and Covenants 1:38
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

There's no escaping it unless one arrives to a point of ignoring God and doing their own thing in or out of the church.

Who do the prophets obey and listen to?

-Finrock

[pjbrownie]

Hopefully the Lord, but there are examples where they do not. Moses, Jonah, Lehi, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc. all made mistakes, some in disobedience to the Lord, others in doctrine. Prophets are merely messengers to heed, not dictators to follow.

[freedomforall]

Hopefully the Lord, but there are examples where they do not. Moses, Jonah, Lehi, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc. all made mistakes, some in disobedience to the Lord, others in doctrine. Prophets are merely messengers to heed, not dictators to follow.

Abr. 3:25
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

We have agency given us so we can make choices. God is not a dictator, but He can make things mighty miserable for disobedience whether in this life or the next.

He says keep my commandments. There is a huge difference between trying, real hard, to keep the commandments and repenting along the way, and breaking commandments with a care less attitude.

Again, God isn't a dictator but try to use your agency in a negative way and see if there are no consequences at any time for not paying heed....and doing.

Judges 7:17
17 And he said unto them, Look on me, and do likewise: and, behold, when I come to the outside of the camp, it shall be that, as I do, so shall ye do.

Leviticus 25:18
18 ¶Wherefore ye shall do my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them; and ye shall dwell in the land in safety.

3 Nephi 18:12
12 And I give unto you a commandment that ye shall do these things. And if ye shall always do these things blessed are ye, for ye are built upon my rock.

3 Nephi 27:21
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;


It's God's way...or the highway with many consequences.

[freedomforall]

To hearken means to "listen respectfully." It doesn't necessarily mean to obey.

But it sure helps. Why?

Abr. 3:25
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Doctrine and Covenants 1:38
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

There's no escaping it unless one arrives to a point of ignoring God and doing their own thing in or out of the church.

Who do the prophets obey and listen to?

-Finrock

Gee whiz, Finrock, this is a tough question to answer. May have to study up on this one. :-ss

[Finrock]

To hearken means to "listen respectfully." It doesn't necessarily mean to obey.

But it sure helps. Why?

Abr. 3:25
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Doctrine and Covenants 1:38
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

There's no escaping it unless one arrives to a point of ignoring God and doing their own thing in or out of the church.

Who do the prophets obey and listen to?

-Finrock

Gee whiz, Finrock, this is a tough question to answer. May have to study up on this one. :-ss

Okay, so, who is it?

-Finrock

[freedomforall]

Okay, so, who is it?

-Finrock

2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

So even though we hear prophets speak, we can get confirmation through the Holy Ghost that what they say is from God.

When we receive the prophets of God, we then, also, receive Christ.

D&C 82:10
10 I, the Lord, am (a)bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no (b)promise.

(a) 10 a bound
Josh. 23:14; 1 Kgs. 8:23; Ps. 97:10; 145:20 (1–21); Prov. 12:2; 1 Ne. 17:35 (33–35); D&C 1:37 (37–38); 58:31; 130:20 (20–21). TG Blessing; Obedience.

(b) 10 b promise
TG Promise.

2 Nephi 28:31
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save (except) their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

True prophets are not the arm of flesh to be ignored.....unless their precepts are false. This is where the Holy Ghost comes in.

D&C 112:20
20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

Now all you have to do is put this all together and then you will know who we listen to and who the prophets listen to also.

Doctrine and Covenants 50:22
22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

Doctrine and Covenants 50:23
23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

[Finrock]

Okay, so, who is it?

-Finrock

2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

So even though we hear prophets speak, we can get confirmation through the Holy Ghost that what they say is from God.

When we receive the prophets of God, we then, also, receive Christ.

D&C 82:10
10 I, the Lord, am (a)bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no (b)promise.

(a) 10 a bound
Josh. 23:14; 1 Kgs. 8:23; Ps. 97:10; 145:20 (1–21); Prov. 12:2; 1 Ne. 17:35 (33–35); D&C 1:37 (37–38); 58:31; 130:20 (20–21). TG Blessing; Obedience.

(b) 10 b promise
TG Promise.

2 Nephi 28:31
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save (except) their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

True prophets are not the arm of flesh to be ignored.....unless their precepts are false. This is where the Holy Ghost comes in.

D&C 112:20
20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

Now all you have to do is put this all together and then you will know who we listen to and who the prophets listen to also.

Doctrine and Covenants 50:22
22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

Doctrine and Covenants 50:23
23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

Can you tell me plainly who the prophets listen to and obey?

-Finrock

[freedomforall]

Okay, so, who is it?

-Finrock

2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

So even though we hear prophets speak, we can get confirmation through the Holy Ghost that what they say is from God.

When we receive the prophets of God, we then, also, receive Christ.

D&C 82:10
10 I, the Lord, am (a)bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no (b)promise.

(a) 10 a bound
Josh. 23:14; 1 Kgs. 8:23; Ps. 97:10; 145:20 (1–21); Prov. 12:2; 1 Ne. 17:35 (33–35); D&C 1:37 (37–38); 58:31; 130:20 (20–21). TG Blessing; Obedience.

(b) 10 b promise
TG Promise.

2 Nephi 28:31
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save (except) their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

True prophets are not the arm of flesh to be ignored.....unless their precepts are false. This is where the Holy Ghost comes in.

D&C 112:20
20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

Now all you have to do is put this all together and then you will know who we listen to and who the prophets listen to also.

Doctrine and Covenants 50:22
22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.

Doctrine and Covenants 50:23
23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness.

Can you tell me plainly who the prophets listen to and obey?

-Finrock

Is this an honest question...or merely a test, of which. the answer is more plain than the nose on Jimmy Durante?

[FTC]

All you need is one simple scripture:
Twelfth Jesus 6:13 "Behold! I have called a prophet among you. Thou shalt follow him with all diligence and uprightness."
That's it. That's all you need.
But you don't have that. Because nothing like that exists. Because something like that is not part of the Lord's doctrine.
Instead, you've carried on for nearly 6 months, 20 forum pages, and hundreds of scriptures that you've tried to patchwork together, filling in the gaps with your own philosophies, and you still can't convince those you brand as wicked and ungodly to buy into you confirmation bias.

[rewcox]

All you need is one simple scripture:
Twelfth Jesus 6:13 "Behold! I have called a prophet among you. Thou shalt follow him with all diligence and uprightness."
That's it. That's all you need.
But you don't have that. Because nothing like that exists. Because something like that is not part of the Lord's doctrine.
Instead, you've carried on for nearly 6 months, 20 forum pages, and hundreds of scriptures that you've tried to patchwork together, filling in the gaps with your own philosophies, and you still can't convince those you brand as wicked and ungodly to buy into you confirmation bias.

Are ye thick headed boy?

34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

Follow the Prophet. Be received at the last day. Or not, your choice.

[FTC]

All you need is one simple scripture:
Twelfth Jesus 6:13 "Behold! I have called a prophet among you. Thou shalt follow him with all diligence and uprightness."
That's it. That's all you need.
But you don't have that. Because nothing like that exists. Because something like that is not part of the Lord's doctrine.
Instead, you've carried on for nearly 6 months, 20 forum pages, and hundreds of scriptures that you've tried to patchwork together, filling in the gaps with your own philosophies, and you still can't convince those you brand as wicked and ungodly to buy into you confirmation bias.

Are ye thick headed boy?

34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

Follow the Prophet. Be received at the last day. Or not, your choice.

Still not the right scripture.

[freedomforall]

All you need is one simple scripture:
Twelfth Jesus 6:13 "Behold! I have called a prophet among you. Thou shalt follow him with all diligence and uprightness."
That's it. That's all you need.
But you don't have that. Because nothing like that exists. Because something like that is not part of the Lord's doctrine.
Instead, you've carried on for nearly 6 months, 20 forum pages, and hundreds of scriptures that you've tried to patchwork together, filling in the gaps with your own philosophies, and you still can't convince those you brand as wicked and ungodly to buy into you confirmation bias.

Are ye thick headed boy?

34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

Follow the Prophet. Be received at the last day. Or not, your choice.

Still not the right scripture.

Well, isn't that just tough luck?

[pjbrownie]

The reason hearken doesn't mean to obey is because sometimes the person who is the prophet does not say truth, such as when he is either not acting as a prophet, or being deceived. Joseph Smith was deceived when he had a revelation to go to Canada to sell the Book of Mormon copyright. He figured it out later, but here you have a prophet being deceived. At other times, they are simply giving us their opinion or best guess, and they may be wrong.

Finally, God sometimes misdirects his prophets in general to test his people.

1 Kings 13 gives us such an example

Ezekiel 14 also tells us that sometimes the Lord deceives his prophets to test his people.

Be ye not deceived. Follow the Lord and the promptings of the Spirit and let no man come between you and the Lord.

[freedomforall]

The reason hearken doesn't mean to obey is because sometimes the person who is the prophet does not say truth, such as when he is either not acting as a prophet, or being deceived. Joseph Smith was deceived when he had a revelation to go to Canada to sell the Book of Mormon copyright. He figured it out later, but here you have a prophet being deceived. At other times, they are simply giving us their opinion or best guess, and they may be wrong.

Finally, God sometimes misdirects his prophets in general to test his people.

1 Kings 13 gives us such an example

Ezekiel 14 also tells us that sometimes the Lord deceives his prophets to test his people.

Be ye not deceived. Follow the Lord and the promptings of the Spirit and let no man come between you and the Lord.

Worst justification ever. Do you assume the church would have grown if people didn't follow the words of Joseph Smith? Your line of thinking is nonsensical and wrong.

[FTC]

All you need is one simple scripture:
Twelfth Jesus 6:13 "Behold! I have called a prophet among you. Thou shalt follow him with all diligence and uprightness."
That's it. That's all you need.
But you don't have that. Because nothing like that exists. Because something like that is not part of the Lord's doctrine.
Instead, you've carried on for nearly 6 months, 20 forum pages, and hundreds of scriptures that you've tried to patchwork together, filling in the gaps with your own philosophies, and you still can't convince those you brand as wicked and ungodly to buy into you confirmation bias.

Are ye thick headed boy?

34 And wo be unto him that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and sent among them; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;

Follow the Prophet. Be received at the last day. Or not, your choice.

Still not the right scripture.

Well, isn't that just tough luck?

Yep. Tough luck that, in more than 6000 years, the Lord has never provided even one scripture that contains your concocted catch phrase, without you having to twist scriptures with your own devises to make it appear as though He did.

[freedomforall]

Yep. Tough luck that, in more than 6000 years, the Lord has never provided even one scripture that contains your concocted catch phrase, without you having to twist scriptures with your own devises to make it appear as though He did.

Here smarty, feast on this for a while. Then with your pompous and arrogant attitude, you may come back and report. But if you feel you can't read it and learn something you'll at least know I don't concoct things so readily, that it is merely made up and assumed by simple thinking, simple people that think they are so dang smart. If you do not read and understand the content of this article then I'll assume you are only here to flap your lips.

Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet
Ezra Taft Benson
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President Ezra Taft Benson,

Of the Quorum of the Twelve

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University)
Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet

My beloved brothers and sisters. I am honored to be in your presence today. You students are a part of a choice young generation—a generation which might well witness the return of the Lord.

Not only is the Church growing in number today, it is growing in faithfulness and, even more important, our young generation, as a group, is even more faithful than the older generation. God has reserved you for the eleventh hour—the great and dreadful day of the Lord (D&C 110:16). It will be your responsibility not only to help to carry the kingdom to a triumph but to save your own soul and strive to save those of your family and to honor the principles of the inspired constitution of the United States.

To help you pass the crucial tests which lie ahead, I am going to give you today several aspects of a grand key which, if you will honor, will crown you with God’s glory and bring you out victorious in spite of Satan’s fury.

Soon we will be honoring our prophet on his 85th birthday. As a Church we sing the hymn, “We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet.” (Hymn no. 196). Here then is the grand key—Follow the prophet—and here are fourteen fundamentals in following the prophet, the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

In section 132 verse 7 of the Doctrine and Covenants [D&C 132:7] the Lord speaks of the prophet—the president—and says:

“There is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred.”

Then in section 21 verses 4–6 [D&C 21:4–6], the Lord states:

“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

“For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.

“For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you.”

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the Standard Works.

President Wilford Woodruff tells of an interesting incident that occurred in the days of the Prophet Joseph Smith:

“I will refer to a certain meeting I attended in the town of Kirtland in my early days. At that meeting some remarks were made that have been made here today, with regard to the living prophets and with regard to the written word of God. The same principle was presented, although not as extensively as it has been here, when a leading man in the Church got up and talked upon the subject, and said: ‘You have got the word of God before you here in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants; you have the written word of God, and you who give revelations should give revelations according to those books, as what is written in those books is the word of God. We should confine ourselves to them.’

“When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, ‘Brother Brigham I want you to go to the podium and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God.’ Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: ‘There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,’ said he, ‘when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.’ That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation; ‘Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.’” (Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 18–19.)

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

God’s revelation to Adam did not instruct Noah how to build the Ark. Noah needed his own revelation. Therefore the most important prophet so far as you and I are concerned is the one living in our day and age to whom the Lord is currently revealing His will for us. Therefore the most important reading we can do is any of the words of the prophet contained each month in our Church Magazines. Our instructions about what we should do for each six months are found in the General Conference addresses which are printed in the Church magazine.

Beware of those who would set up the dead prophets against the living prophets, for the living prophets always take precedence.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

President Wilford Woodruff stated:

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident which happened to him:

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or diplomas to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sometimes there are those who feel their earthly knowledge on a certain subject is superior to the heavenly knowledge which God gives to his prophet on the same subject. They feel the prophet must have the same earthly credentials or training which they have had before they will accept anything the prophet has to say that might contradict their earthly schooling. How much earthly schooling did Joseph Smith have? Yet he gave revelations on all kinds of subjects. We haven’t yet had a prophet who earned a doctorate degree in any subject. We encourage earthly knowledge in many areas, but remember if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet and you’ll be blessed and time will show you have done the right thing.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who argue about words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not obliged to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet, “Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you.” (D&C 21:4.)

And speaking of taking counsel from the prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states:

“Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed.”

Said Brigham Young, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.” (Journal of Discourses, 13:95.)

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

“Thou has declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear,” complained Nephi’s brethren. But Nephi answered by saying, “The guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.” (1 Ne. 16:1–2.)

Said President Harold B. Lee:

“You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may conflict with your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life … Your safety and ours depends upon whether or not we follow … Let’s keep our eye on the President of the Church.” (Conference Report, October 1970, p. 152–153.)

But it is the living prophet who really upsets the world. “Even in the Church,” said President Kimball, “many are prone to garnish the sepulchres of yesterdays prophets and mentally stone the living ones.” (Instructor, 95:527.)

Why? Because the living prophet gets at what we need to know now, and the world prefers that prophets either be dead or worry about their own affairs. Some so-called experts of political science want the prophet to keep still on politics. Some would-be authorities on evolution want the prophet to keep still on evolution. And so the list goes on and on.

How we respond to the words of a living prophet when he tells us what we need to know, but would rather not hear, is a test of our faithfulness.

Said President Marion G. Romney, “It is an easy thing to believe in the dead prophets, but it is a greater thing to believe in the living prophets.” And then he gives this illustration:

“One day when President Grant was living, I sat in my office across the street following a general conference. A man came over to see me, an elderly man. He was very upset about what had been said in this conference by some of the Brethren, including myself. I could tell from his speech that he came from a foreign land. After I had quieted him enough so he would listen, I said, ‘Why did you come to America?’ ‘I am here because a prophet of God told me to come.’ ‘Who was the prophet?’ I continued. ‘Wilford Woodruff.’ ‘Do you believe Wilford Woodruff was a prophet of God?’ ‘Yes, sir.’

“Then came the sixty-four dollar question, ‘Do you believe that Heber J. Grant is a prophet of God?’ His answer, ‘I think he ought to keep his mouth shut about old-age assistance.’

“Now I tell you that a man in his position is on the way to apostasy. He is forfeiting his chances for eternal life. So is everyone who cannot follow the living prophet of God.” (Conference Report, April 1953, p. 125.)

Eighth: The Prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

There will be times when you will have to choose between the revelation of God and reasoning of men—between the prophet and the professor. Said the Prophet Joseph Smith,

“Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof until long after the events transpire.” (Scrapbook of Mormon Literature, vol. 2, p. 173).

Would it seem reasonable to an eye doctor to be told to heal a blind man by spitting in the dirt, making clay and applying it to the man’s eyes and then telling him to wash in a contaminated pool? Yet this is precisely the course that Jesus took with one man, and he was healed. (See John 9:6–7.) Does it seem reasonable to cure leprosy by telling a man to wash seven times in a particular river, yet this is precisely what the prophet Elisha told a leper to do, and he was healed. (See 2 Kgs. 5.)

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.” (Isa. 55:8–9.)

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter—temporal or spiritual.

Said Brigham Young:

“Some of the leading men in Kirtland were much opposed to Joseph the Prophet, meddling with temporal affairs …

“In a public meeting of the Saints, I said, ‘Ye Elders of Israel, … will some of you draw the line of demarcation, between the spiritual and temporal in the kingdom of God, so that I may understand it?’ Not one of them could do it …

“I defy any man on earth to point out the path a Prophet of God should walk in, or point out his duty, and just how far he must go, in dictating temporal or spiritual things. Temporal and spiritual things are inseparably connected, and ever will be.” (Journal of Discourses, 10:363–64.)

Tenth: The prophet may well advise on civic matters. When a people are righteous, they want the best to lead them in government. Alma was the head of the Church and of the government in the Book of Mormon; Joseph Smith was mayor of Nauvoo and Brigham Young was governor of Utah. Isaiah was deeply involved in giving counsel on political matters and of his words the Lord himself said, “Great are the words of Isaiah.” (3 Ne. 23:1.)

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

The learned may feel the prophet is only inspired when he agrees with them, otherwise the prophet is just giving his opinion—speaking as a man. The rich may feel they have no need to take counsel of a lowly prophet.

In the Book of Mormon we read:

“O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.

“But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

“And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.” (2 Ne. 9:28–29, 42; italics added.)

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

As a prophet reveals the truth it divides the people. The honest in heart heed his words but the unrighteous either ignore the prophet or fight him. When the prophet points out the sins of the world, the worldly either want to close the mouth of the prophet, or else act as if the prophet didn’t exist, rather than repent of their sins. Popularity is never a test of truth. Many a prophet has been killed or cast out. As we come closer to the Lord’s second coming you can expect that as the people of the world become more wicked, the prophet will be less popular with them.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—The highest quorum in the Church.

In the Doctrine and Covenants the Lord refers to the First Presidency as “the highest council of the Church” (D&C 107:80) and says “whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent …” (D&C 112:20).

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

President Harold B. Lee relates this incident from Church history:

“The story is told in the early days of the Church—particularly, I think, at Kirtland, Ohio—where some of the leading brethren in the presiding councils of the Church met secretly and tried to scheme as to how they could get rid of the Prophet Joseph’s leadership. They made the mistake of inviting Brigham Young to one of these secret meetings. He rebuked them, after he had heard the purpose of their meeting. This is part of what he said: ‘You cannot destroy the appointment of a prophet of God, but you can cut the thread that binds you to the prophet of God, and sink yourselves to hell.’” (Conference Report, April 1963, p. 81.)

In a general conference of the Church, President N. Eldon Tanner stated:

“The Prophet spoke out clearly on Friday morning, telling us what our responsibilities are …

“A man said to me after that, ‘You know, there are people in our state who believe in following the Prophet in everything they think is right, but when it is something they think isn’t right, and it doesn’t appeal to them, then that’s different.’ He said, ‘Then they become their own prophet. They decide what the Lord wants and what the Lord doesn’t want.’

“I thought how true, and how serious when we begin to choose which of the covenants, which of the commandments we will keep and follow, we are taking the law of the Lord into our own hands and become our own prophets, and believe me, we will be led astray, because we are false prophets to ourselves when we do not follow the Prophet of God. No, we should never discriminate between these commandments, as to those we should and should not keep.” (CR, October 1966, p. 98.)

“Look to the Presidency and receive instruction,” said the Prophet Joseph Smith. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 161.) But Almon Babbitt didn’t, and in the Doctrine and Covenants section 124, verse 84 [D&C 124:84], the Lord states:

“And with my servant Almon Babbitt, there are many things with which I am not pleased; behold, he aspireth to establish his counsel instead of the counsel which I have ordained, even that of the Presidency of my Church.”

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.

5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.

7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.

11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

May God bless us all to look to the Prophet and the Presidency in the critical and crucial days ahead is my prayer.

[FTC]

Wait, what???

(The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)
(Journal of Discourses, 13:95.)
(Journal of Discourses, 10:363–64.)

Didn't you earlier say:

It has already been established that the JD is not scripture, they are only spoken words by men with their own ideas.

OH! The two-faced, double standard, hypocrisy! The confirmation bias is strong with this one.
Moving the goal posts are we? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts No, no. Feel free to keep right along that path, pal. The more you say, the more you continue to weaken your stance. Picking and choosing the things dead prophets have said - isn't that what we accuse other churches of as one of the signs of their falsehoods?
By the same reasoning to discredit the Journal of Discourses, I'm sure it could be applied to discredit those Conference Report quotes, too.

Such truly saddening times when prophets and apostles themselves succumb to the philosophies of men. But, none to worry! Ezra is just a dead prophet now, so we can dismiss things he said as just speaking as a man at our leisure. Don'tcha love it!! :-BD

[lemuel]

Imagine Nephi having this conversation with his brothers:
"Brothers, we know that dad is a visionary man. As such, we must have the spirit to guide us so we know when dad goes off his rocker. I have the spirit, so I will let you know when dad goes off."

Did Nephi say that? Of course not.

We do have an example when Lehi stumbled. What did Nephi do?

1 Nephi 16
18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.

19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.

20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did murmur against the Lord.

21 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their springs, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.

22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto complaining against the Lord their God.

23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my father: Whither shall I go to obtain food?

24 And it came to pass that he (Lehi) did inquire of the Lord, for they had humbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.

25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly chastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.

Nephi didn't take over because Lehi, the prophet, murmured. He went to the prophet, his dad, and asked him where he should go for food.

The Lord chastened Lehi. The Lord directs his prophets, we don't.

Follow the Prophet.

Who instructed Nephi to build a boat?

[freedomforall]

Wait, what???

(The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)
(Journal of Discourses, 13:95.)
(Journal of Discourses, 10:363–64.)

Didn't you earlier say:

It has already been established that the JD is not scripture, they are only spoken words by men with their own ideas.

OH! The two-faced, double standard, hypocrisy! The confirmation bias is strong with this one.
Moving the goal posts are we? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts No, no. Feel free to keep right along that path, pal. The more you say, the more you continue to weaken your stance. Picking and choosing the things dead prophets have said - isn't that what we accuse other churches of as one of the signs of their falsehoods?
By the same reasoning to discredit the Journal of Discourses, I'm sure it could be applied to discredit those Conference Report quotes, too.

Such truly saddening times when prophets and apostles themselves succumb to the philosophies of men. But, none to worry! Ezra is just a dead prophet now, so we can dismiss things he said as just speaking as a man at our leisure. Don'tcha love it!! :-BD

You're gloating over nothing. I said the JOD is not scripture, I never said people don't quote them. So gloat away and enjoy every minute of it. You got my permission. Don'tcha love it! =)) =)) =))