Follow the Prophet is Doctrinal!

[freedomforall]

Doctrine and Covenants 19:13
13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;

Doctrine and Covenants 133:71
71 Behold, and lo, there are none to deliver you; for ye obeyed not my voice when I called to you out of the heavens; ye believed not my servants, and when they were sent unto you ye received them not.

Doctrine and Covenants 51:1
1 Hearken unto me, saith the Lord your God, and I will speak unto my servant Edward Partridge, and give unto him directions; for it must needs be that he receive directions how to organize this people.


Doctrine and Covenants 28:2
2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.


Why would leaders be put in place if it were not necessary to follow their counsel?

[FTC]

What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

Still doesn't say to follow the prophet.

You lose.

So all of this is just about winning and losing a scripture bash? Yep, by golly! that sure is what Jesus Christ's Gospel surely is all about.

[FTC]

Why would leaders be put in place if it were not necessary to follow their counsel?

So that the leaders can direct people to follow Jesus Christ. Duh.

[cayenne]

Leaders are put in place for order. How can a large skyscraper be built without a foreman guiding the workers? Is the foreman better than the workers? No! For he cannot do the work himself, and he needs the workers to help his burden of responsibility. Are the workers better than the foreman? No! For without the leaders administrating whatvneeds to be done, it would be chaos. Does the foreman own the building? No...the owner is God. God instructs the foreman, and he instructs the workers collectively. Together they equal out the load. However, if the foreman sins, and the workers follow the sin, they together fall in their sin, and the job fails. This is why we are to hearken to our leaders council when it is righteous for they need our help.
We are not to hearken when they get it wrong. When they get it wrong (and they will because they are sinners like all of us) we are to help them get it right, working together in God, not apart as king vs slaves! This is about equally helping one another in God, this is not a slave church where the leader has all power, and burdens his load onto us by force and wickedness.

[rewcox]

Leaders are put in place for order. How can a large skyscraper be built without a foreman guiding the workers? Is the foreman better than the workers? No! For he cannot do the work himself, and he needs the workers to help his burden of responsibility. Are the workers better than the foreman? No! For without the leaders administrating whatvneeds to be done, it would be chaos. Does the foreman own the building? No...the owner is God. God instructs the foreman, and he instructs the workers collectively. Together they equal out the load. However, if the foreman sins, and the workers follow the sin, they together fall in their sin, and the job fails. This is why we are to hearken to our leaders council when it is righteous for they need our help.
We are not to hearken when they get it wrong. When they get it wrong (and they will because they are sinners like all of us) we are to help them get it right, working together in God, not apart as king vs slaves! This is about equally helping one another in God, this is not a slave church where the leader has all power, and burdens his load onto us by force and wickedness.

Did Nephi sin? No, and yes. Yet Lehi admonished his other sons to pay heed to Nephi. Pay heed to our Prophet, and our apostles and our leaders today.

[freedomforall]

Why would leaders be put in place if it were not necessary to follow their counsel?

So that the leaders can direct people to follow Jesus Christ. Duh.

This is where the problem arises, a good number of church members do not want to follow the twelve or the First Presidency. They assume that if they severe their ties with leadership their own supposed righteousness will carry them through.

When people begin to speak out against those Christ appointed men to lead the church...this is apostasy.

Doctrine and Covenants 112:20
20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

John 13:20
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Matthew 10:40
40 ¶He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


No one in the church can assume that by scoffing, shunning or badmouthing church leaders...they are following Christ.

[freedomforall]

Leaders are put in place for order. How can a large skyscraper be built without a foreman guiding the workers? Is the foreman better than the workers? No! For he cannot do the work himself, and he needs the workers to help his burden of responsibility. Are the workers better than the foreman? No! For without the leaders administrating whatvneeds to be done, it would be chaos. Does the foreman own the building? No...the owner is God. God instructs the foreman, and he instructs the workers collectively. Together they equal out the load. However, if the foreman sins, and the workers follow the sin, they together fall in their sin, and the job fails. This is why we are to hearken to our leaders council when it is righteous for they need our help.
We are not to hearken when they get it wrong. When they get it wrong (and they will because they are sinners like all of us) we are to help them get it right, working together in God, not apart as king vs slaves! This is about equally helping one another in God, this is not a slave church where the leader has all power, and burdens his load onto us by force and wickedness.

The underlying animosity truly stands out.

So you would rather not follow anyone you suspect sins? Do you not believe that those in leadership have the capacity to repent and strive to do better, using the same promise of perfection in Christ revealed in Moroni 10:32,33?

We can sin but they can't?

[cayenne]

Leaders are put in place for order. How can a large skyscraper be built without a foreman guiding the workers? Is the foreman better than the workers? No! For he cannot do the work himself, and he needs the workers to help his burden of responsibility. Are the workers better than the foreman? No! For without the leaders administrating whatvneeds to be done, it would be chaos. Does the foreman own the building? No...the owner is God. God instructs the foreman, and he instructs the workers collectively. Together they equal out the load. However, if the foreman sins, and the workers follow the sin, they together fall in their sin, and the job fails. This is why we are to hearken to our leaders council when it is righteous for they need our help.
We are not to hearken when they get it wrong. When they get it wrong (and they will because they are sinners like all of us) we are to help them get it right, working together in God, not apart as king vs slaves! This is about equally helping one another in God, this is not a slave church where the leader has all power, and burdens his load onto us by force and wickedness.

The underlying animosity truly stands out.

So you would rather not follow anyone you suspect sins? Do you not believe that those in leadership have the capacity to repent and strive to do better, using the same promise of perfection in Christ revealed in Moroni 10:32,33?

We can sin but they can't?

Brother, I am sorry you feel my statement has animosity. On my end of things I feel the opposite. I love God, and the leaders he has given us. I do not know how to say what I said above any better. I can add I know that God wants us to help and assist our leaders, just as he wants a wife to help assist her husband. However, for this to please God we must actually "assist" them in righteousness. Doing what a leader asks when they are in error is not assisting God, nor assisting the leader to be better. How can a wife be Godly, if she assists her husband in sin? Is she not to blame also? A righteous wife will always desire to be a help meet to her man, but to be a "help meet" she must "help" in the right. Helping assist in the wrong not only hurts God, but it hurts the person we are supposed to be loving. I love Monson for example, but what love is it to God or him if when he messes up, I follow the mess up? I help neither God nor him, and I become a waster servant. And any good leader will be glad that someone "calls them out" on and error. Why? Because they should know that person loves God and the them and is trying to "help them"…..the problem is in this world we have 99.9% of history doing the opposite. A king to slave mentality is based on fear, and not love. And if a "peasant" cannot rebuke his "leader" out of love because of fear, we have slavery, the opposite of God. God is love, and if we love someone, we will not follow them into sin, for sin is death. The pride of the "leaders" and the "slave" mentality of the masses is not of God. I hope this and my other paragraph make my position clear. God bless

If I may I want to add one more thing. The only way I know how to be a good leader to people, and a good follower to those who are my leader, is for us all to work together in the love of God to perfect each other. When I mess up as a leader, I want to know and change, and to know that someone loves God and me enough to let me know my error. When I am a follower and see a leader mess up, I want them to know I love God and them enough to let them know, so they can work on it. A good leader only asks things of his people that are "legitimate" and a good follower desires to help assist the load of the leader. This really is about working together as "one" ….It is a perfect balance if done right. Anything else is a form of slavery and bondage.

[rewcox]

Excellent comments from our current prophet:

Essential to the plan is our Savior, Jesus Christ. Without His atoning sacrifice, all would be lost. It is not enough, however, merely to believe in Him and His mission. We need to work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve. We need to know God’s laws and live them. We need to receive His saving ordinances. Only by so doing will we obtain true, eternal happiness.

We are blessed to have the truth. We have a mandate to share the truth. Let us live the truth, that we might merit all that the Father has for us. He does nothing save it be for our benefit. He has told us, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”1

From the depths of my soul and in all humility, I testify of the great gift which is our Father’s plan for us. It is the one perfect path to peace and happiness both here and in the world to come.

My brothers and sisters, I leave with you my love and my blessing as I close, and I do so in the name of our Savior and Redeemer, even Jesus Christ, amen.

[freedomforall]

Excellent comments from our current prophet:

Essential to the plan is our Savior, Jesus Christ. Without His atoning sacrifice, all would be lost. It is not enough, however, merely to believe in Him and His mission. We need to work and learn, search and pray, repent and improve. We need to know God’s laws and live them. We need to receive His saving ordinances. Only by so doing will we obtain true, eternal happiness.

We are blessed to have the truth. We have a mandate to share the truth. Let us live the truth, that we might merit all that the Father has for us. He does nothing save it be for our benefit. He has told us, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.”1

From the depths of my soul and in all humility, I testify of the great gift which is our Father’s plan for us. It is the one perfect path to peace and happiness both here and in the world to come.

My brothers and sisters, I leave with you my love and my blessing as I close, and I do so in the name of our Savior and Redeemer, even Jesus Christ, amen.

Excellent post, Rewcox.

To add to this is that we must not only believe IN Christ.....we must, first and foremost, BELIEVE Christ.

Do we merely believe there is a Christ?

Or, do we believe Christ....believe that he can actually clean us up and delver us into God's presence?

Stephen E Robinson explains this in his book Believing Christ........absolutely awesome.

And from a 1992 Ensign article we read:

Believing Christ

By Stephen E. Robinson
To have faith in Jesus Christ, we must learn to believe his promise of eternal life.

One of the most terrifying dilemmas in the universe consists of two facts. The first is expressed in Doctrine and Covenants 1:31: “I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.” [D&C 1:31] That means he can’t tolerate it. He can’t blink or look the other way. The other fact is very simply put: We all sin. If the equation consisted of only those two facts, the conclusion would be inescapable: As sinful beings, we can never enter God’s presence.

But that is not all there is. There is the atonement of Jesus Christ—that glorious plan by which this dilemma can be resolved.

And the amazing thing is that the Atonement works in practical ways.

Believing Christ

When my son Michael was six or seven, he did something I thought was wrong. He is my only son, and I want him to be better than his dad was. So when he slipped up, I sent him to his room with the instructions, “Don’t you dare come out until I come and get you!”

And then I forgot. Some hours later, as I was watching television, I heard his door open and tentative footsteps coming down the hall. I slapped my forehead and ran to meet him. There he was with swollen eyes and tears on his cheeks. He looked up at me—not quite sure he should have come out—and said, “Dad, can’t we ever be friends again?” I melted and pulled him to me. He’s my boy, and I love him.

We all do things that disappoint our Father in Heaven, that separate us from his presence, his Spirit. There are times when we get sent to our rooms, spiritually though not physically. When that happens, we sometimes lift up our eyes and say, “O Father, can’t we ever be friends again?” The answer, found in all the scriptures, is a resounding “Yes—through the atonement of Christ.” I particularly like the way it is put in Isaiah 1:18: “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.” [Isa. 1:18]

To have faith in Jesus Christ is not merely to believe that he is who he says he is. It is not merely to believe in Christ; we must also believe Christ. Both as a bishop and as a teacher, I have heard several variations on a theme of doubt. Some have said, “Bishop, I’ve sinned too horribly. I’ll be active in the Church, and I hope for some reward. But I couldn’t ever hope to be exalted after what I’ve done.” Others have said, “I’m weak and imperfect. I don’t have all the talents that Brother Jones (or Sister Smith) does. I’ll never be the bishop (or the Relief Society president). I’m just average. I expect my reward in eternity will be a little lower than theirs.”

All of these are variations on the same theme: “I do not believe Christ can do what he claims. I have no faith in his ability to exalt me.”

I once counseled a man who said, “Bishop, I’m just not celestial material.” Well, I’d heard those words once too often, so I said, “You’re not celestial material? Welcome to the club. Not one of us is! Not one of us qualifies on our own for the presence of God. So why don’t you admit your real problem? Why don’t you admit that you don’t believe Christ can do what he says he can do?”

He got angry. “I have a testimony of Jesus!”

I said, “Yes, you believe in Christ. You simply do not believe Christ. He says that even though you are not celestial, he can make you celestial—but you don’t believe it.”

Why He Is Called the Savior

Sometimes the demand for perfection drives us to despair. More than a decade ago, my wife and I were living in Pennsylvania. Things seemed to be going well. I’d been promoted in my work and was also serving in the bishopric. Janet had given birth to our fourth child, had graduated from college, had passed the CPA exam, and had been called to serve as Relief Society president. We were busy but happy, and I thought we were doing the right things.

Then my wife began to feel an overpowering sense of discouragement. She asked to be released from her callings, and try as I might, I could not get her to tell me what was wrong.

One night, after two weeks of being prodded by a sometimes insensitive but worried husband, she finally said, “All right. You want to know what’s wrong? I can’t do it anymore. I can’t get up at 5:30 in the morning to bake bread and help my kids with their homework and do my own homework. I can’t do my Relief Society stuff and get my genealogy done and sew and go to the PTA meetings and write the missionaries. …”

She added, “I don’t have the talent that Sister Morrell has. I can’t do what Sister Childs does. I try not to yell at the kids, but I do. I’m not perfect, and I’m never going to be perfect. I’m afraid I’m not going to make it to the celestial kingdom.”

I said, “Janet, I know you have a testimony. …”

“Of course I do! That’s what’s so terrible. I know the gospel’s true. I just can’t do it. I’ve tried and I’ve tried, but I can’t do it all, all of the time.”

It was a long night. At last we came to understand what was wrong. We realized, after talking together, that Janet was trying to save herself. She knew that Jesus is an adviser and a teacher. She knew that he is an example, the head of the Church, our Elder Brother, and even God. She knew all that, but she did not understand His role as the Savior.

We all fail at living the full celestial level. That’s why we need a Savior. The Lord says, “Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.” (Matt. 5:6.) We frequently misinterpret that verse. We think it means “Blessed are the righteous.” It does not. When are you hungry? When are you thirsty? When you don’t have the object of your desire. It is those who don’t have the righteousness that God has—but who hunger and thirst after it—who are blessed, for if that is the desire of their hearts, the Lord will help them achieve it.

Becoming One with Christ

Perfection comes through the atonement of Jesus Christ. That happens as we become one with him, a perfect being. It is like a merger. If you take a small, bankrupt firm that is about to go under and merge it with a corporate giant, what happens? Their assets and liabilities flow together, and the new entity that is created is solvent.

This is similar to what happens spiritually when we enter into a covenant with the Savior. We have liabilities; he has assets. So he proposes a covenant relationship. Jesus is sometimes called the Bridegroom and the Church the Bride, because of their close association under the covenant. After the covenant is made, I become one with Christ, and as partners we work together toward my exaltation. My liabilities and his assets flow into each other. I do all that I can do, and he does what I cannot yet do. For now, in partnership we are perfect, through His perfection.

What heavier burden is there than the demand we sometimes place on ourselves to be perfect now, in this life? But Jesus proposes: “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

“Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

“For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matt. 11:28–30.)

Trust Me

Nephi was one of the great prophets, yet he recognized his need for the Savior. In 2 Nephi 4:17–18, we read of his anguish: “O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

“I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.” [2 Ne. 4:17–18]

Did Nephi understand his mortal condition?

Oh, yes. But the key to his greatness is what comes next: “Nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.” (2 Ne. 4:19.)

I had a friend who used to say frequently, “Well, I figure my life is half over and I’m halfway to the celestial kingdom, so I’m right on schedule.”

One day I asked her, “What happens if you die tomorrow?” It was the first time the thought had occurred to her.

“Let’s see, halfway to the celestial kingdom is … mid-terrestrial! That’s not good enough!”

We need to know that because of the covenant we have made with the Savior, if we should die tomorrow, we still have hope of the celestial kingdom. That hope is one of the promised blessings of our covenant relationship. Yet many of us do not understand that promise or take advantage of it.

When our twin daughters were young, Janet and I decided to teach them to swim. I started with Rebekah. As we went down into the public pool together, I thought, “I’m going to teach her to swim.” But she thought, “I’m going to drown!” The water was only three and one-half feet deep, but Becky was only three feet tall. She was so terrified that she began to scream and kick. She was unteachable.

Finally, I held her close and said, “Becky, I’ve got you. I’m your dad. I love you. I’m not going to let anything bad happen to you. Now relax.” And bless her heart, she relaxed. She trusted me. I put my arms under her and said, “Okay, now kick your legs.” And she began to learn how to swim.

Spiritually, some of us are so terrified by the questions “Am I celestial? Am I going to make it?” that we cannot make any progress. We’re petrified by our fear. But if we’re trying to follow his teachings and paying attention, we can almost feel the Savior’s arms around us and feel those assurances as the Spirit whispers of the Savior’s love for us: I love you. Trust me. And if we do trust him, he can begin to help us live the gospel. It is as if he supports us, whispering through the Spirit: Okay, now attend sacrament meeting. Very good. Now accept a call to serve. And so we begin to make progress.

Alma 34:14–16 makes it clear that Christ’s atonement was infinite and eternal. As such, it enables mercy to overpower justice so we can have the faith to repent. “And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles [us] in the arms of safety.”

“The arms of safety”—that is my favorite phrase from the Book of Mormon.

Do Latter-day Saints believe in being saved? Of course we do. That’s why Jesus is called the Savior. What good is it to have a Savior if no one is saved? It’s like having a lifeguard that won’t get out of the chair.

The great truth of the gospel is that we have a Savior who can and will save us from ourselves, from what we lack, from our imperfections, from the carnality within us, if we seek his help. In vision, Joseph Smith described those in the celestial kingdom in these terms:

“These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.

“These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant.” (D&C 76:68–69.)

Just men and women—those who hunger and thirst after righteousness—made perfect through Jesus Christ, our mediator.

Give Him All

As my wife and I talked that night about feelings of inadequacy, I groped for some way to help. I finally remembered something that had happened a couple of months earlier. In our home it is now called the parable of the bicycle.

I was sitting in a chair reading. My daughter, Sarah, who was seven years old at the time, came in and said, “Dad, can I have a bike? I’m the only kid on the block who doesn’t have one.”

Well, I didn’t have the money then for a bike, so I stalled her. I said, “Sure, Sarah.”

She said, “How? When?”

I said, “You save all your pennies, and soon you’ll have enough for a bike.” And she went away.

A couple ofs weeks later I was sitting in the same chair when I heard a “clink, clink” in Sarah’s bedroom. I asked, “Sarah, what are you doing?”

She came to me with a little jar, a slit cut in the lid, and a bunch of pennies in the bottom. She said, “You promised me that if I saved all my pennies, pretty soon I’d have enough for a bike. And, Daddy, I’ve saved every single one of them.”

My heart melted. My daughter was doing everything in her power to follow my instructions. I hadn’t actually lied to her. If she saved all of her pennies, she would eventually have enough for a bike, but by then she would want a car. I said, “Let’s go look at bikes.”

We went to every store in town. Finally we found it—the perfect bicycle. She was thrilled. Then she saw the price tag, and her face fell. She started to cry. “Oh, Dad, I’ll never have enough for a bicycle!”

So I said, “Sarah, how much do you have?”

She answered, “Sixty-one cents.”

“I’ll tell you what. You give me everything you’ve got and a hug and a kiss, and the bike is yours.” Then I drove home very slowly because she insisted on riding the bike home.

As I drove beside her, I thought of the atonement of Christ. We all desperately want the celestial kingdom. We want to be with our Father in Heaven. But no matter how hard we try, we come up short. At some point all of us must realize, “I can’t do this by myself. I need help.” Then it is that the Savior says, in effect, All right, you’re not perfect. But what can you do? Give me all you have, and I’ll do the rest.

He still requires our best effort. We must keep trying. But the good news is that having done all we can, it is enough. We may not be personally perfect yet, but because of our covenant with the Savior, we can rely on his perfection, and his perfection will get us through.

As Janet and I internalized how the Atonement works, we wept. “I’ve always believed that Jesus suffered and died for me,” Janet said. “But now I realize that he must save me from myself, from my sins and my weaknesses.”

I rejoice in the words of 2 Nephi 2:8: “There is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah.” [2 Ne. 2:8] There is no other way. Many of us are trying to save ourselves, holding the atonement of Jesus Christ at arm’s distance and saying, “When I’ve perfected myself, then I’ll be worthy of the Atonement.” But that’s not how it works. That’s like saying, “I won’t take the medicine until I’m well. I’ll be worthy of it then.”

One of my favorite hymns reads: “Dearly, dearly has he loved! And we must love him too, and trust in his redeeming blood, and try his works to do.” (“There Is a Green Hill Far Away,” Hymns, 1985, no. 194.)

Truly, we must try to do his works with all that is in us. But then, having done all, we can trust in his redeeming blood to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

If we will enter into that glorious covenant Jesus offers us and give him all that we have, holding nothing back, trusting in his ability to make up for what we lack, he will exalt us. With him pulling with and for us, we can move forward in confidence toward our celestial home.

For those that think this post is too long, I guess reading the entire Book of Mormon is out of the question.

[rewcox]

Have you read Mosiah 15?

11 Behold I say unto you, that whosoever has heard the words of the prophets, yea, all the holy prophets who have prophesied concerning the coming of the Lord—I say unto you, that all those who have hearkened unto their words, and believed that the Lord would redeem his people, and have looked forward to that day for a remission of their sins, I say unto you, that these are his seed, or they are the heirs of the kingdom of God.

22 And now, the resurrection of all the prophets, and all those that have believed in their words, or all those that have kept the commandments of God, shall come forth in the first resurrection; therefore, they are the first resurrection.

Follow the Prophet, don't be a trembler.

[cayenne]

If we love God, we will follow God. If we love the prophets, we will help them in following God, as they are also to help us in following God. When a leader messes up, if we love God and the leader we will still follow God and help the leader to repent, as he should do for us. Righteousness does not so called follow any man in his errors. If so you have helped "sin" and darkness multiply! The facts are the "prophets" make mistakes, and we are to not follow them in this thing. If you do, you are a terrible "help meet" to God and the prophets.

Bottom line is simple math. If you love God you love truth. You only follow truth. You only so called "follow" a man if that man is "following" truth. Therefore your master is still God and his truth. If a man "follows" another man in sin, this is not the love of God, it is many other things none of which is Godly. We as a people have to get out of this "slave" mentality. God is no respecter of persons. This is not the "military" where the mass of troups are seen as mere slaves and peasants to the bidding of their masters.

Wicked leaders demand the masses bow to them. This is history 101. Wicked leaders do not want "assistance or help" in following God. They don't want to help us either. They want to force their load on us and let the slaves take the their burdens while they sit in the "high seats" and enjoy the banquets and business jets. These leaders believe they know better than you….you serf! How dare we tell the leader he made an error. What an outrage! He may reply something like this: "You need to keep your head down and shut up you poor peasant. I am the leader, and I speak for God, and he won't let me mess up so quit thinking and obey, don't question me again"……does that sound like the God of love and equality and helping each other, or the Devil and his serfdom control?

[rewcox]

If we love God, we will follow God. If we love the prophets, we will help them in following God, as they are also to help us in following God. When a leader messes up, if we love God and the leader we will still follow God and help the leader to repent, as he should do for us. Righteousness does not so called follow any man in his errors. If so you have helped "sin" and darkness multiply! The facts are the "prophets" make mistakes, and we are to not follow them in this thing. If you do, you are a terrible "help meet" to God and the prophets.

Bottom line is simple math. If you love God you love truth. You only follow truth. You only so called "follow" a man if that man is "following" truth. Therefore your master is still God and his truth. If a man "follows" another man in sin, this is not the love of God, it is many other things none of which is Godly. We as a people have to get out of this "slave" mentality. God is no respecter of persons. This is not the "military" where the mass of troups are seen as mere slaves and peasants to the bidding of their masters.

Wicked leaders demand the masses bow to them. This is history 101. Wicked leaders do not want "assistance or help" in following God. They don't want to help us either. They want to force their load on us and let the slaves take the their burdens while they sit in the "high seats" and enjoy the banquets and business jets. These leaders believe they know better than you….you serf! How dare we tell the leader he made an error. What an outrage! He may reply something like this: "You need to keep your head down and shut up you poor peasant. I am the leader, and I speak for God, and he won't let me mess up so quit thinking and obey, don't question me again"……does that sound like the God of love and equality and helping each other, or the Devil and his serfdom control?

Sorry you are messed up. Read the Book of Mormon. Lot's of Prophets trying to help out. Hearken to them. You were not sent to fix the prophets, it's the other way around.

[cayenne]

My dear brother you obviously sorely misunderstand what I'm saying or you and I are on completely different sides of this. Either way I've said my peace

and you can take it or leave it it what you will.

[rewcox]

Wicked leaders demand the masses bow to them. This is history 101. Wicked leaders do not want "assistance or help" in following God. They don't want to help us either. They want to force their load on us and let the slaves take the their burdens while they sit in the "high seats" and enjoy the banquets and business jets. These leaders believe they know better than you….you serf! How dare we tell the leader he made an error. What an outrage! He may reply something like this: "You need to keep your head down and shut up you poor peasant. I am the leader, and I speak for God, and he won't let me mess up so quit thinking and obey, don't question me again"……does that sound like the God of love and equality and helping each other, or the Devil and his serfdom control?

This thread is about Prophets. Today, that would be our Prophet and the Apostles, who are good leaders.

When you talk about a wicked leader, I think of King Noah.

[Finrock]

If we love God, we will follow God. If we love the prophets, we will help them in following God, as they are also to help us in following God. When a leader messes up, if we love God and the leader we will still follow God and help the leader to repent, as he should do for us. Righteousness does not so called follow any man in his errors. If so you have helped "sin" and darkness multiply! The facts are the "prophets" make mistakes, and we are to not follow them in this thing. If you do, you are a terrible "help meet" to God and the prophets.

Bottom line is simple math. If you love God you love truth. You only follow truth. You only so called "follow" a man if that man is "following" truth. Therefore your master is still God and his truth. If a man "follows" another man in sin, this is not the love of God, it is many other things none of which is Godly. We as a people have to get out of this "slave" mentality. God is no respecter of persons. This is not the "military" where the mass of troups are seen as mere slaves and peasants to the bidding of their masters.

Wicked leaders demand the masses bow to them. This is history 101. Wicked leaders do not want "assistance or help" in following God. They don't want to help us either. They want to force their load on us and let the slaves take the their burdens while they sit in the "high seats" and enjoy the banquets and business jets. These leaders believe they know better than you….you serf! How dare we tell the leader he made an error. What an outrage! He may reply something like this: "You need to keep your head down and shut up you poor peasant. I am the leader, and I speak for God, and he won't let me mess up so quit thinking and obey, don't question me again"……does that sound like the God of love and equality and helping each other, or the Devil and his serfdom control?

Sorry you are messed up. Read the Book of Mormon. Lot's of Prophets trying to help out. Hearken to them. You were not sent to fix the prophets, it's the other way around.

No man was sent to fix any other man. No woman was sent to fix another woman. Jesus Christ is the Great Physician, the Great Healer, the Great Fixer. He fixes, mends, cures, puts together, aligns, and heals the human heart, mind, body, and soul. All prophets were sent to lead all men to Jesus Christ. All true prophets, that is, are there to guide, direct, lead, and to testify to all who will listen to go to Jesus Christ; to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior; to receive and to maintain the Holy Spirit, which will lead them to Jesus Christ so that He, Jesus Christ, can fix them.

What I will type next is essential and critical to know and to understand and to accept. Without knowing this, understanding this, and accepting this, you cannot be saved or assist in the work of salvation: All true and holy prophets are so (are true and holy prophets) if and only if they have received and have maintained the companionship of the Holy Ghost. All true and holy prophets receive their calling, their power, and their authority through the Holy Ghost. All true and holy prophets can only speak for God if and only if they are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost. There is no workaround, no exception, no title, no position, no creed, no statement, directive, or pronouncement that supersedes the fact that the gift and power of the Holy Ghost is what makes a man or a woman a prophet or prophetess, respectively. The Holy Ghost gives us power, the Holy Ghost gives us authority, the Holy Ghost gives us our calling. Without the Holy Ghost we are nothing. Without the Holy Ghost a man or a woman is nothing.

The Holy Ghost empowers, enlivens, fulfills, directs, guides, authorizes, calls, directs, builds, converts, leads, and seals all things.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

No man was sent to fix any other man. No woman was sent to fix another woman. Jesus Christ is the Great Physician, the Great Healer, the Great Fixer. He fixes, mends, cures, puts together, aligns, and heals the human heart, mind, body, and soul. All prophets were sent to lead all men to Jesus Christ. All true prophets, that is, are there to guide, direct, lead, and to testify to all who will listen to go to Jesus Christ; to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior; to receive and to maintain the Holy Spirit, which will lead them to Jesus Christ so that He, Jesus Christ, can fix them.

What I will type next is essential and critical to know and to understand and to accept. Without knowing this, understanding this, and accepting this, you cannot be saved or assist in the work of salvation: All true and holy prophets are so (are true and holy prophets) if and only if they have received and have maintained the companionship of the Holy Ghost. All true and holy prophets receive their calling, their power, and their authority through the Holy Ghost. All true and holy prophets can only speak for God if and only if they are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost. There is no workaround, no exception, no title, no position, no creed, no statement, directive, or pronouncement that supersedes the fact that the gift and power of the Holy Ghost is what makes a man or a woman a prophet or prophetess, respectively. The Holy Ghost gives us power, the Holy Ghost gives us authority, the Holy Ghost gives us our calling. Without the Holy Ghost we are nothing. Without the Holy Ghost a man or a woman is nothing.

The Holy Ghost empowers, enlivens, fulfills, directs, guides, authorizes, calls, directs, builds, converts, leads, and seals all things.

-Finrock

Did you not read what freedomforall wrote? You are not aligning with Christ.

Why would leaders be put in place if it were not necessary to follow their counsel?

So that the leaders can direct people to follow Jesus Christ. Duh.

This is where the problem arises, a good number of church members do not want to follow the twelve or the First Presidency. They assume that if they severe their ties with leadership their own supposed righteousness will carry them through.

When people begin to speak out against those Christ appointed men to lead the church...this is apostasy.

Doctrine and Covenants 112:20
20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

John 13:20
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Matthew 10:40
40 ¶He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


No one in the church can assume that by scoffing, shunning or badmouthing church leaders...they are following Christ.

[Finrock]

No man was sent to fix any other man. No woman was sent to fix another woman. Jesus Christ is the Great Physician, the Great Healer, the Great Fixer. He fixes, mends, cures, puts together, aligns, and heals the human heart, mind, body, and soul. All prophets were sent to lead all men to Jesus Christ. All true prophets, that is, are there to guide, direct, lead, and to testify to all who will listen to go to Jesus Christ; to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior; to receive and to maintain the Holy Spirit, which will lead them to Jesus Christ so that He, Jesus Christ, can fix them.

What I will type next is essential and critical to know and to understand and to accept. Without knowing this, understanding this, and accepting this, you cannot be saved or assist in the work of salvation: All true and holy prophets are so (are true and holy prophets) if and only if they have received and have maintained the companionship of the Holy Ghost. All true and holy prophets receive their calling, their power, and their authority through the Holy Ghost. All true and holy prophets can only speak for God if and only if they are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost. There is no workaround, no exception, no title, no position, no creed, no statement, directive, or pronouncement that supersedes the fact that the gift and power of the Holy Ghost is what makes a man or a woman a prophet or prophetess, respectively. The Holy Ghost gives us power, the Holy Ghost gives us authority, the Holy Ghost gives us our calling. Without the Holy Ghost we are nothing. Without the Holy Ghost a man or a woman is nothing.

The Holy Ghost empowers, enlivens, fulfills, directs, guides, authorizes, calls, directs, builds, converts, leads, and seals all things.

-Finrock

Did you not read what freedomforall wrote? You are not aligning with Christ.

So that the leaders can direct people to follow Jesus Christ. Duh.

This is where the problem arises, a good number of church members do not want to follow the twelve or the First Presidency. They assume that if they severe their ties with leadership their own supposed righteousness will carry them through.

When people begin to speak out against those Christ appointed men to lead the church...this is apostasy.

Doctrine and Covenants 112:20
20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

John 13:20
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Matthew 10:40
40 ¶He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


No one in the church can assume that by scoffing, shunning or badmouthing church leaders...they are following Christ.

I didn't read what freedomforall wrote. Didn't need to and having read it now, its completely irrelevant to what I wrote. I was speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost. How you judge my condition is irrelevant and meaningless. I am a true follower of Jesus Christ and listen to and hear His voice, which is Spirit. The mouth piece by which the Spirit speaks makes no difference to me. I listen to the Spirit regardless of the mouthpiece because the Spirit makes one a prophet and the lack of the Spirit makes one not a prophet.

If you or any man is not following the Holy Ghost then you are not one with Christ. Christ speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost and so does His prophets. If a man is a prophet, He is a prophet because he has the Holy Spirit, not because of any other reason. For example, a person is not a prophet because he belongs to a specific church. He is not a prophet just because he has a title or a position. The possessing and having the companionship of the Holy Ghost is what makes a person a prophet. Forever and always. This is what makes one aligned with Christ by possessing the same Spirit as He possesses. If the apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have the Spirit and are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost, they are prophets. If not, they are not. Simple, eternal truth. No exceptions.

True prophets will always have the Spirit and thus it is the Spirit who is speaking and the Spirit is the voice of God, thus God is king. No true prophet would have it any other way.

-Finrock

[freedomforall]

I didn't read what freedomforall wrote. Didn't need to and having read it now, its completely irrelevant to what I wrote.

Doctrine and Covenants 112:20
20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

So you think this passage is irrelevant? The President and his councilors are Prophets because God called them and bestowed all necessary keys upon them in order to fill that calling. The Prophet is a seer and revelator when God inspires them to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost.
All other men in the church do not have the specific keys to act for the entire body of the church. And this includes you.
We can receive inspiration for our families, and in that sense we are prophets.
The First Presidency, whom I have sent....in not irrelevant.

a person is not a prophet because he belongs to a specific church. He is not a prophet just because he has a title or a position.

You may assume other people are prophets not belonging to our church, but they do not any way, shape or form have required, necessary keys for salvation. There's a lot more to being a prophet than merely having the Holy Ghost on occasion.

[Finrock]

I didn't read what freedomforall wrote. Didn't need to and having read it now, its completely irrelevant to what I wrote.

Doctrine and Covenants 112:20
20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

So you think this passage is irrelevant? The President and his councilors are Prophets because God called them and bestowed all necessary keys upon them in order to fill that calling. The Prophet is a seer and revelator when God inspires them to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost.
All other men in the church do not have the specific keys to act for the entire body of the church. And this includes you.
We can receive inspiration for our families, and in that sense we are prophets.
The First Presidency, whom I have sent....in not irrelevant.

It's completely irrelevant to what I wrote. It doesn't apply to my statements. You are speaking apples and I'm speaking oranges. What I say is not in conflict with what you said. What you said does not apply to or in anyway address what it is that I am saying.

a person is not a prophet because he belongs to a specific church. He is not a prophet just because he has a title or a position.

You may assume other people are prophets not belonging to our church, but they do not any way, shape or form have required, necessary keys for salvation. There's a lot more to being a prophet than merely having the Holy Ghost on occasion.

Don't matter what you got, if you don't have the Holy Ghost, you don't have God's power, you don't have His authority, you don't have jack but your own mind and your own intellect. A prophet is a prophet if they have the Holy Ghost. You are a prophet if you have received and maintain the Holy Ghost. If you aren't speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost, you aren't speaking for God. Simple, eternal truth. Applies today, yesterday, and forever.

-Finrock

[freedomforall]

I didn't read what freedomforall wrote. Didn't need to and having read it now, its completely irrelevant to what I wrote.

Doctrine and Covenants 112:20
20 Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent, whom I have made counselors for my name’s sake unto you.

So you think this passage is irrelevant? The President and his councilors are Prophets because God called them and bestowed all necessary keys upon them in order to fill that calling. The Prophet is a seer and revelator when God inspires them to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost.
All other men in the church do not have the specific keys to act for the entire body of the church. And this includes you.
We can receive inspiration for our families, and in that sense we are prophets.
The First Presidency, whom I have sent....in not irrelevant.

It's completely irrelevant to what I wrote. It doesn't apply to my statements. You are speaking apples and I'm speaking oranges. What I say is not in conflict with what you said. What you said does not apply to or in anyway address what it is that I am saying.

a person is not a prophet because he belongs to a specific church. He is not a prophet just because he has a title or a position.

You may assume other people are prophets not belonging to our church, but they do not any way, shape or form have required, necessary keys for salvation. There's a lot more to being a prophet than merely having the Holy Ghost on occasion.

Don't matter what you got, if you don't have the Holy Ghost, you don't have God's power, you don't have His authority, you don't have jack but your own mind and your own intellect. A prophet is a prophet if they have the Holy Ghost. You are a prophet if you have received and maintain the Holy Ghost. If you aren't speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost, you aren't speaking for God. Simple, eternal truth. Applies today, yesterday, and forever.

-Finrock

But the oranges are flavorless. There is the outside peeling but nothing on the inside.

What is a Prophet and how do they become such?

Prophet

A person who has been called by and speaks for God. As a messenger of God, a prophet receives commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God’s will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of his dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, prophets may be inspired to foretell the future for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ. The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God’s prophet on earth today. Members of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

So what are your sources for proving anyone having the Holy Ghost is a prophet.

[rewcox]

Imagine Nephi having this conversation with his brothers:
"Brothers, we know that dad is a visionary man. As such, we must have the spirit to guide us so we know when dad goes off his rocker. I have the spirit, so I will let you know when dad goes off."

Did Nephi say that? Of course not.

We do have an example when Lehi stumbled. What did Nephi do?

1 Nephi 16
18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine steel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.

19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.

20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did murmur against the Lord.

21 Now it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their springs, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.

22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto complaining against the Lord their God.

23 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my father: Whither shall I go to obtain food?

24 And it came to pass that he (Lehi) did inquire of the Lord, for they had humbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.

25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly chastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.

Nephi didn't take over because Lehi, the prophet, murmured. He went to the prophet, his dad, and asked him where he should go for food.

The Lord chastened Lehi. The Lord directs his prophets, we don't.

Follow the Prophet.

[FTC]

An interesting point of doctrine to recognize is that in all these scriptures, in all the things a prophet is telling someone and/or people what to do, not once, not ever, nowhere, is a prophet ever telling people to follow him. Never. The only one that is trying to tell people what to do by the catch phrase "Follow the Prophet" is rewcox......

[rewcox]

An interesting point of doctrine to recognize is that in all these scriptures, in all the things a prophet is telling someone and/or people what to do, not once, not ever, nowhere, is a prophet ever telling people to follow him. Never. The only one that is trying to tell people what to do by the catch phrase "Follow the Prophet" is rewcox......

Have head-fog?

Nephi literally followed Lehi. Nephi was very useful since he followed the prophet. You might try it.

[Finrock]

An interesting point of doctrine to recognize is that in all these scriptures, in all the things a prophet is telling someone and/or people what to do, not once, not ever, nowhere, is a prophet ever telling people to follow him. Never. The only one that is trying to tell people what to do by the catch phrase "Follow the Prophet" is rewcox......

Have head-fog?

Nephi literally followed Lehi. Nephi was very useful since he followed the prophet. You might try it.

[A prophet] was to be, above all, a preacher of righteousness. When the people had fallen away from a true faith in Jehovah, the prophets had to try to restore that faith and remove false views about the character of God and the nature of the divine requirement. In certain cases prophets predicted future events, such as the very important prophecies announcing the coming of Messiah’s kingdom; but as a rule a prophet was a forthteller rather than a foreteller. In a general sense a prophet is anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost.

[A prophet's] primary responsibility...is to bear witness of Christ.

2 And I, Nephi, said unto them: Behold they were manifest unto the prophet by the voice of the Spirit; for by the Spirit are all things made known unto the prophets, which shall come upon the children of men according to the flesh.

Here is the crux...

“[N]o man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost”

A prophet receives his power to exercise priesthood, his authority to testify of Christ, and his calling to preach righteousness through the power of the Holy Ghost.

God's voice is Spirit (D&C 88:66).

Nephi and all of those who are true prophets were prophets because they obeyed the voice of the Spirit (1 Ne. 4:6-18).

The prophets follow and obey the Spirit. They follow and obey Christ. All true and holy prophets will teach you to follow and to obey the voice of the Spirit or the voice of Jesus Christ or to follow Jesus Christ. If a man who presumes to be a prophet is not speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost, he may be sustained and may have the title of prophet, but he would not be a prophet. Not until he is speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost.

We do not follow prophets, we follow the Spirit or the voice of God. We follow Jesus Christ. All true and holy prophets know that they are nothing and that they are but a mouthpiece of the Spirit and if they are not moved upon by the Spirit then they are not speaking for God, they are not speaking scripture, and they are not speaking words which will save.

No true and holy prophet will ask you to follow them, but they may try to persuade you to follow the Spirit or Christ who is speaking through them. We follow Jesus Christ. We follow light, life, and truth. We know truth when we have the Spirit because we will be able to recognize His voice, which is Spirit.

-Finrock