Is it wrong to be a feminist?

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Kitkat
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by Kitkat »

butterfly wrote:
Ezra wrote:I would say all those are wrong in that they are selfish.

Any way in which we put our own desires above what God has asked is wrong.

The drive for a degree is usually money worldliness. The drive for military service is usually to prove to others ones bravery strength. Not to mention most likely you will be working to fulfill a sceem of secret combination in doing so.

Turning down marriage usually is for some selfish reason. Not wanting kids same.

It's the same boat for men too.
I don't believe it's always selfish. Doesn't God want each of His daughters to be happy? Shouldn't they have a chance to personally develop their own interests and skills? What if a woman is blessed with a knack for learning or science or medicine?

Once a woman has children, most if not all of her personal time is gone; she is also told that this time of constant servitude, often without time to care for her own needs, is supposed to be the happiest time of her life. And while I agree, that it is very rewarding to be a mother, and I gladly chose it when I had lots of other options, I can see why many women deteriorate into nagging their husbands, depression/anxiety, and ultimately discontentment.

I think women need to feel good about being happy just as individuals and not that they can only find joy as a wife or mom.
I had my first 4 children in 4 years, and It was intense. My babies were colicky, I was very anxious. I remember taking the kids to temple square and walking all around with them. They all were melting down by the time we foolishly decided to go on a tour of the conference center. The lady giving the tour asked me how life was with all those little kids. I smiled and said, "um...yeah, we don't sleep and pretty much someone is always crying..."

She put her arm around me and said, "Honey, I am so proud of your for being honest. You don't know how many mothers come through here and say motherhood is bliss. It sets unreal expectations for all of us."

When I was going to college I was an illustration major and I was worried about taking care of my financial needs as a starving artist. I was surprised how many people told me not to worry about it because I was sure to get married and have a lovely family. So, in that way I think we do women a disservice (especially in LDS culture).

So...being real is the best option in my opinion. Whatever you are, be it openly :) Be open to god's guidance and show love for others, even if their journey looks different from yours or tradition.

Todd
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by Todd »

The real question should be: are selfish endeavors that harm the family wrong?

I'm not saying that only feminism is selfish. Men are just as guilty in their various pursuits that stroke the ego.

Children have the best chance at life when they are raised in a loving home.

If a man or woman's career is hurting the family, then perhaps they should step back and reevaluate what is most important in life.

Here is what the prophet says:
...we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

butterfly
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by butterfly »

Ezra wrote:
Men ,woman all people only find happiness in what they personally choose to find happiness in.

It's a personal choice. And can change at a drop of a hat.

When we boil it down. The question of what we need to be happy is really the same for all people unless they are stuck in their selfish mind set.
We need nothing.
The key to happiness is not having more it's simply wanting less.

We each have the same capabilitys to find happiness in nothing.

D&c 121 33-43 states pretty clearly that many are called few are chosen because they care sooooooooooooooo much about the things of the world!!!!!!!!!! And they aspire to the honors of men.

So we as people should be striving to be the opposite. Not being worldly not caring what men think. Not keeping up with the jones.

People have an idea that they need wealth a degree a nice car nice house nice clothing to be able to travel or do something out of the ordinary. Be a doctor on and on and on in order to be happy. They are constantly are looking outward to find happiness. Constantly looking to personal accomplishment as a means to find happiness. Doing and striving all day many things in hope to find happiness and fulfillment.

And they will never find it.

They may get moments of happiness. Temporary glimpses when they reach a goal. But they are fleeting.

True happiness only happens when we discover that we are our own source of it.

And once you figure that out......... You don't have to waist so much of your time energy and means in obtaining it.

Your free to be free. And free to be happy no matter what.
I agree with you, but I don't think some teachings in the church do. Women are often taught that in order to by happy, they must comply with a certain checklist, which is mainly marriage, lots of kids, and staying home with those kids. This is an admirable life, but it is not everyone's life.

I think your view is more ideal, meaning that there are countless paths and detours that we can travel in life, but as long as we are following the Spirit, loving God and our fellow man, we can find happiness in any situation. Women are not required to be a model mormon wife and mom in order to be righteous or blessed.
I think this quote matches your sentiment:

A man said to the Buddha, "I want Happiness."
Buddha said, first remove "I", that's ego,
then remove "want", that's desire.
See now you are left with only Happiness.

butterfly
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by butterfly »

Todd wrote:The real question should be: are selfish endeavors that harm the family wrong?

I'm not saying that only feminism is selfish. Men are just as guilty in their various pursuits that stroke the ego.

Children have the best chance at life when they are raised in a loving home.

If a man or woman's career is hurting the family, then perhaps they should step back and reevaluate what is most important in life.

Here is what the prophet says:
...we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.
I agree that children should be raised by their parents, definitely. But maybe couples shouldn't feel pressured into having so many kids, so close together in age, that the parents stop progressing themselves.
Russel Means talked about how traditionally the Lakota Native Americans would only have a child once every 5-6 years. This gave the mother and child the time they needed to form a healthy relationship, and the mother had the health and the patience to nurture and care for that small child until it was old enough to be more independent. Then, she could have another and know that the older child wouldn't be neglected in any way.
But in the church, it's like there's this pressure to see how many kids you can have. Before long, you realize that you can't give your children the attention they need and you can't take care of yourself.
For many women, this leads to anxiety attacks and depression, both of which are treated with medication because other solutions (allowing women to work part-time, having kids spaced further apart, women going back to school to learn a skill, etc) these things are often looked down upon and judged as a woman "stepping outside her role."

butterfly
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by butterfly »

Kitkat wrote:
I had my first 4 children in 4 years, and It was intense. My babies were colicky, I was very anxious. I remember taking the kids to temple square and walking all around with them. They all were melting down by the time we foolishly decided to go on a tour of the conference center. The lady giving the tour asked me how life was with all those little kids. I smiled and said, "um...yeah, we don't sleep and pretty much someone is always crying..."

She put her arm around me and said, "Honey, I am so proud of your for being honest. You don't know how many mothers come through here and say motherhood is bliss. It sets unreal expectations for all of us."
Kitkat, if you don't mind, can I ask why you and ReturnofMahonri decided to have 4 children in 4 years?
Knowing what you know now, if you could do it over again, would you have them that close together or space it out more?

Matchmaker
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by Matchmaker »

If a woman, of her own free will, foregoes having children, her own or adopted, she will one day know she made a serious mistake when no one comes to visit her over Thanksgiving or Christmas because they are all home with their own families and no one calls her or sends her a card or a gift on Mother's Day. There is a reason President McKay said, "No success can compensate for failure in the home." It's true.

Kitkat
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by Kitkat »

Matchmaker wrote:If a woman, of her own free will, foregoes having children, her own or adopted, she will one day know she made a serious mistake when no one comes to visit her over Thanksgiving or Christmas because they are all home with their own families and no one calls her or sends her a card or a gift on Mother's Day. There is a reason President McKay said, "No success can compensate for failure in the home." It's true.
I am a big advocate of family. It is beautiful and offer a myriad of experiences. With that said, no success (not even succeeding in your home) can compensate for a lack of inner peace. Anyone can achieve this, no matter the mistakes, choices, and problems they have encountered on their life's journey.

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Jeremy
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by Jeremy »

I think a definition of feminism is needed.

Kitkat
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by Kitkat »

butterfly wrote:
Kitkat wrote:
I had my first 4 children in 4 years, and It was intense. My babies were colicky, I was very anxious. I remember taking the kids to temple square and walking all around with them. They all were melting down by the time we foolishly decided to go on a tour of the conference center. The lady giving the tour asked me how life was with all those little kids. I smiled and said, "um...yeah, we don't sleep and pretty much someone is always crying..."

She put her arm around me and said, "Honey, I am so proud of your for being honest. You don't know how many mothers come through here and say motherhood is bliss. It sets unreal expectations for all of us."
Kitkat, if you don't mind, can I ask why you and ReturnofMahonri decided to have 4 children in 4 years?
Knowing what you know now, if you could do it over again, would you have them that close together or space it out more?
Great question butterfly. I guess I just kept feeling that there were more kids for me and I just wanted to get in and get out :). Would I do it differently? No, probably not. My kids love being so close together and now it is a lot more fun because they are a few years older. **BUT** Would I do it again? Nope :).

With that said someone pointed out to me that I will never be more loved or more needed than I am right now. I would be lying if I didn't say I occasionally still go crazy, but my husband and I give each other one night a week to escape and do whatever we want. That way I know that even if my days are eaten up by little ankle biters I can plan on at least one night a week that belongs to me :D

butterfly
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by butterfly »

Jeremy wrote:I think a definition of feminism is needed.
Simple Definition of feminism:
the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities

Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

I'm not talking about hating men, or saying that women should play on men's football teams, etc.

I feel that a lot of women in the church struggle with depression, anxiety, over-eating, and overall discontentment, etc. I wonder if part of the reason has to do with women being taught to be submissive to authority (men/priesthood), get married as fast as you can, have as many kids as fast as you can, stay at home and make everyone happy because "no success can compensate for failure in the home" (so if you mess this up, what good are you?).

I think women should be taught that they are important as individuals and they don't have to wait to be married or have kids before they can have permission to be happy.
Take the singles wards for example. So many people feel sorry for single members of the church. I hear people often make comments "Oh, poor sister Jones- she's 24 and still not married. I wonder what's wrong with her?"
I don't think there's anything wrong with being single.
What about having kids? I cannot tell you how many times I was asked "When are you gonna have the next one?", while I was still nursing a baby.
It's like we put so much pressure on creating a family, that we forget that families are made up of individuals and those individuals must be healthy and taken care of. It's great to have a big family, but is it right if you have to be on antidepressants or addicted to chocolate or have emotional breakdowns just to get through the day?

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Jeremy
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by Jeremy »

butterfly wrote:
Jeremy wrote:I think a definition of feminism is needed.
Simple Definition of feminism:
the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities
Then I don't think it is wrong to be a feminist. I think it is wrong not to be.

braingrunt
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by braingrunt »

Do equal rights and opportunities include the Melchizedek priesthood? We might want to ask God about that instead of feminism.

Reality is what it is. Compassion should not stop us from telling the truth in love.

butterfly
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by butterfly »

braingrunt wrote:Do equal rights and opportunities include the Melchizedek priesthood? We might want to ask God about that instead of feminism.

Reality is what it is. Compassion should not stop us from telling the truth in love.
I'm not sure I understand your point. IMO women receive the Melchizedek priesthood as part of the endowment, and that is true for both single and married women.

Gorman
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by Gorman »

butterfly wrote:I feel that a lot of women in the church struggle with depression, anxiety, over-eating, and overall discontentment, etc. I wonder if part of the reason has to do with women being taught to be submissive to authority (men/priesthood), get married as fast as you can, have as many kids as fast as you can, stay at home and make everyone happy because "no success can compensate for failure in the home" (so if you mess this up, what good are you?).
To sum up my post that got lost in Wednesday's black hole:

1) There is good feminism and bad feminism. Bad feminism tends to divide men and women because of their differences. Good feminism tends to unite men and women despite their differences.

2) Being submissive is a requirement to enter into Heaven. The whole gospel is set up to encourage and require submissiveness (both from men and women). Ultimately, we all have to submit to a man (Christ) if we are to have any hope of making it through this life. Earth is a spiritual life and death situation. If I am drowning in the ocean and a rescuer reaches out a hand to me, why should I worry if that hand is a man's hand or a woman's hand?

3) The church is in the business of teaching ideals. They teach us that we should have perfect marriages, perfect children, and homes which are Heaven on Earth. None of us will reach this ideal . . . or even come close. The church also teaches us we should be like Christ. None of will reach this ideal . . . or even come close. Does this mean the church should stop teaching these things? Absolutely not. Part of this life is for us as members to figure out how to optimistically reach towards an ideal while accepting complete and utter failure in that reaching. The biggest prize isn't given to those who reached the furthest, but to those who are still reaching with their last ounce of strength as death claws at their feet and all of Hell screams in their ears to give up.

butterfly
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by butterfly »

Gorman, I agree with some things you've stated but not everything. Definitely we all must be changed from the natural man and that does require trusting and being submissive to God. But I also believe that we can continue progressing beyond that submissiveness to where we work with God.
The Savior commanded us to be perfect and I believe that is attainable in this life. The reason it seems impossible is because many people try to make their actions perfect instead of their hearts. I think this may be contributing to a lot of the depression in the LDS community, whether it's missionaries or overwhelmed parents.

Many believe that doing the checklist is what brings peace and eternal life. I know so many moms who are miserable because they are constantly trying to do the whole checklist; then they try to force their kids to do it, too. These women often say "I just have to get through this life and then Heavenly Father will fix everything in the next life." It's like they believe that it's normal or God's will for them to be miserable.

But I believe God wants us to be happy in this life and to learn to be agents unto ourselves. I think a lot of people are suffering as they try to comply with outward works, which don't bring perfection.

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Melissa
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by Melissa »

Contemplator wrote:There are a lot of opinions that are based upon our current, or historically recent, circumstances. If we go back to the prototype for a married couple, Adam and Eve, we see the following in Moses 5:
1 And it came to pass that after I, the Lord God, had driven them out, that Adam began to till the earth, and to have dominion over all the beasts of the field, and to eat his bread by the sweat of his brow, as I the Lord had commanded him. And Eve, also, his wife, did labor with him.
2 And Adam knew his wife, and she bare unto him sons and daughters, and they began to multiply and to replenish the earth.
3 And from that time forth, the sons and daughters of Adam began to divide two and two in the land, and to till the land, and to tend flocks, and they also begat sons and daughters.
The notion of a man working and woman staying home is, in historical terms, quite recent. Survival dictated that the man and the woman both labored for the good of the family. The proclamation on the family defines "primary" areas of responsibility and then reminds us that we are equal partners in all things. I think a woman and a man, as equal partners, should figure out how to provide for the spiritual, emotional and temporal needs of their family. And, we should all probably spend less time second-guessing others choices in these matters.
Thank you for bringing this up. I so wish that we could still live this way but our society rarely allows for it. There is so much division between couples that I believe it causes many many of the marriage issues we have. If husband and wife actually were able to work side by side....the true complimentary differences would manifest in perfect harmony. The differences and role playing is between the sexes causes distance and detatchment and lonliness and I might add unhealthy expectations.

Also, to say it evil for a woman to go to school and gain experience in the working world is abusive these days. What happens when her husband cannot provide or cannot be the sole $ maker? Then she has to go out as a 35 year old mother of 4 and flip burgers?? The world isint quite as understanding anymore, they expect a woman to also document time spent unemployed and state the reason why...

Women have the more difficult path.

butterfly
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by butterfly »

Melissa wrote:
Thank you for bringing this up. I so wish that we could still live this way but our society rarely allows for it. There is so much division between couples that I believe it causes many many of the marriage issues we have. If husband and wife actually were able to work side by side....the true complimentary differences would manifest in perfect harmony. The differences and role playing is between the sexes causes distance and detatchment and lonliness and I might add unhealthy expectations.

Also, to say it evil for a woman to go to school and gain experience in the working world is abusive these days. What happens when her husband cannot provide or cannot be the sole $ maker? Then she has to go out as a 35 year old mother of 4 and flip burgers?? The world isint quite as understanding anymore, they expect a woman to also document time spent unemployed and state the reason why...

Women have the more difficult path.
I, too, wish that it was easier for husbands to work from home with their families.

Melissa, what do you think would help LDS women to feel more empowered and in control of their lives instead of feeling like they're stuck in difficult situations and aren't capable of remedying them?

I know one sister- her husband was always gone working, she was at home with the kids, homeschooling, had more than one calling at church, etc. She reached her breaking point. She started having panic attacks, anxiety, it led to depression, she started taking antidepressants, stopped coming to church because it was too overwhelming, etc.
Finally, she decided to take control of her situation. She went back to school to get her degree and plans to be the breadwinner so her husband doesn't have to be away at work all the time.
I'm very happy for her, however she confided to me that it's still difficult to come to church because she feels so judged for her choices.
It's like, as a church, we're totally fine with people being on antidepressants just to get through life, but we aren't okay with women stepping outside of "the home" in order to actually address the problem.
Have you seen similar situations or is this just in my area?

Kitkat
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by Kitkat »

Start with what you can do right now. Sometimes it is as simple as getting the dishes out of the sink for me. That doesn't change my future, but it helps me feel empowered. I think being honest with the people that love you helps too. Talk to your parents, spouse, and friends and let them know how you feel. For me having one night a week that is my time allows to feel like I can plan and be in control over that little area of my life. I think sometimes women, especially in LDS culture feel like we are just always supposed to "hold down the fort". For instance, just be faithful and trusting your husband will provide, just be cheerful and supportive while your husband does his calling, and I must say it gets overwhelming for control freaks like me to feel like you have lost the power to direct your life. My husband does amazing helping me work through my needs, but it has taken me years to figure out what my needs were :)

Of course there are valuable lesson to learn no matter what role you find yourself in. The best and hardest thing I have ever learned is to accept what is. I am not my circumstances, I am not my problems. When I can remember these things I can find peace, but it is still a struggle.

Also, at the risk of beating a dead horse I hesitate to mention that women can work from home selling on Amazon. Pm me if anyone wants to know more (not an mlm, just a great way we have found to make your own cash) It's completely free to learn and you never pay me any money.

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Jamescm
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by Jamescm »

A feminist is someone who maintains that (generally in regards to humans) females are preferable or overall superior to males. This is contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in which we are all brothers and sisters-sons and daughters of God. The single purpose of the two sexes is for them to unite and compliment one another, and for that, we are created differently in both body and spirit.

Someone who seeks "equality" between the sexes is not a feminist-it's not even semantically accurate. Such a person faces the complex reality of differences improperly perceived as inequalities mixed with inequalities against both sexes. In addition, the feminist movement itself is one of several tools wielded by Satan to attack the family unit as well as the Church itself, while fooling those involved into thinking that they're actually seeking justice and goodness. The sale of victimization as a form of empowerment is used to sow enmity between demographics of sex, religion, race, and even income in order to bring down communities and expand the ever-encroaching power of tyrants who swear that it is all necessary for "equality" to finally exist.

In short, yes, it is wrong to be a "feminist". Instead of teaching girls that they must be like boys to be valuable, teach them to champion those tendencies and gifts that they are naturally blessed with. Instead of giving in to movements that sow half-truths and lies in order to consolidate political and social power, extend the same arm of forgiveness and patience that you desire of yourself. Instead of fretting over Priesthood authority, realize that the presiding quorums don't exist alone; they stand with the relief society. Mission presidents stand with their wives. A man can not bring children to the world without a woman, and a woman can not bless and fully direct her children without a man.

In fact, when you step back and look at people as families and not individuals, some of the inequalities between the sexes in the past actually make more sense. If a family owns land and votes, and the husband and wife council with one another in tasks such as this, it's with no misogyny that deeds are handled and ballots cast by the family's presider and representative. This isn't to say that the way things used to be were better than now (or that they were worse, for that matter); it's just to say that it's worth stepping back and looking at a bigger picture than simply whatever seems "fair" or "equal" to us right now.

butterfly
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by butterfly »

Jamescm wrote:A feminist is someone who maintains that (generally in regards to humans) females are preferable or overall superior to males. This is contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in which we are all brothers and sisters-sons and daughters of God. The single purpose of the two sexes is for them to unite and compliment one another, and for that, we are created differently in both body and spirit.

Someone who seeks "equality" between the sexes is not a feminist-it's not even semantically accurate. Such a person faces the complex reality of differences improperly perceived as inequalities mixed with inequalities against both sexes. In addition, the feminist movement itself is one of several tools wielded by Satan to attack the family unit as well as the Church itself, while fooling those involved into thinking that they're actually seeking justice and goodness. The sale of victimization as a form of empowerment is used to sow enmity between demographics of sex, religion, race, and even income in order to bring down communities and expand the ever-encroaching power of tyrants who swear that it is all necessary for "equality" to finally exist.

In short, yes, it is wrong to be a "feminist". Instead of teaching girls that they must be like boys to be valuable, teach them to champion those tendencies and gifts that they are naturally blessed with. Instead of giving in to movements that sow half-truths and lies in order to consolidate political and social power, extend the same arm of forgiveness and patience that you desire of yourself. Instead of fretting over Priesthood authority, realize that the presiding quorums don't exist alone; they stand with the relief society. Mission presidents stand with their wives. A man can not bring children to the world without a woman, and a woman can not bless and fully direct her children without a man.

In fact, when you step back and look at people as families and not individuals, some of the inequalities between the sexes in the past actually make more sense. If a family owns land and votes, and the husband and wife council with one another in tasks such as this, it's with no misogyny that deeds are handled and ballots cast by the family's presider and representative. This isn't to say that the way things used to be were better than now (or that they were worse, for that matter); it's just to say that it's worth stepping back and looking at a bigger picture than simply whatever seems "fair" or "equal" to us right now.
Thanks for your input. Just to clarify, I agree with you that the type of feminism where a woman thinks she is superior to a man is not helpful in women finding empowerment or unity with their husbands.
Have you noticed that it is becoming more common to find good LDS women who struggle with anxiety, depression, or general discontentment? It seems to be a common theme that a lot of sisters have just given up hope- they say "I just have to endure to the end and then God will make everything right in the next life."
To me, this statement says "My life is miserable but I am in no position to change it."

I believe God wants us to take control of our lives and create heaven for ourselves here and now. If there's something you don't like, change it. We are creators and have the ability to improve our circumstances.
However, I've noticed that many church members believe that a woman should only use this creative power when it's focused on children. Anything outside of that is somehow out of her "jurisdiction." Even if her child is sick, a lot of moms would feel anxiety, thinking "well I don't have the priesthood, all I can do is pray, but when dad gets home he can give our child a blessing." This is the attitude that needs to be changed. It says "I have little control over my life. Everything depends upon the male authority and I just have to wait."
And to get through that waiting period, women find short-term satisfaction in seemingly harmless vices (shopping, gossiping, food, etc. )
Why? It gives a sense of control. They are replacing their own personal empowerment with exterior things.

What do you believe women should understand in order to take responsibility for their situations and change what they don't like?

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inho
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by inho »

Jamescm wrote:A feminist is someone who maintains that (generally in regards to humans) females are preferable or overall superior to males.
That's pretty narrow definition. Here are some other definitions:

Wikipedia: Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, personal, and social rights for women.

Merriam-Webster dictionary: the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities; organized activity in support of women's rights and interests

In these definitions, I see nothing that is contrary to the Gospel.

That is how the word is usually understood. So, I don't agree with your statement:
Jamescm wrote: Someone who seeks "equality" between the sexes is not a feminist-it's not even semantically accurate.

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ason123
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by ason123 »

"The Church has been in the forefront in training the daughters of Zion and in giving them responsibility. We believe and have taught consistently from the earliest days of the Church that a woman’s greatest mission in life is an honorable and happy marriage with the rearing of an honorable and happy family. That means mothering and nurturing in a very real and personal way, a way that is demanding both in time and energy. But this is not inconsistent with other activities. There are tremendous responsibilities for women in the Church as well as in the community consistent with and in total harmony with marriage, motherhood, and the rearing of good and able children.

It is important, therefore, that girls in the Church have opportunity for and motivation to move forward in programs designed to improve their skills, to enhance their estimation of their own self-worth, and to broaden their knowledge of the gospel with consequent increase of faith. The generations are largely cast by the mothers who produce them. The story is told that Brigham Young was once asked what he would do if he had to choose between providing education for his sons or for his daughters. He replied that he would educate his daughters because they would become the mothers of his grandchildren."
~Gordon B. Hinckley

My thoughts are that you can do all of it! Work, education, children. Why not? Be what you want to be. Be that example to your future children to show them their mother is smart, educated, and knows how to make her way in the world, and they will do the same. Let the spirit guide you. There may be times and seasons for everything.

simpleton
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Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by simpleton »

This is a subject that has been around all my life and has also been discussed many times between my wife and I... and of course between brothers and sisters etc etc... let's do a little examination of the fruits in our country ... in regards to women getting into the workforce in America what are the results? As my wife and I see it, a rapid decline in the family, a decline in morality, a huge decline in the desire to have a large family.. ( let's see the average children per married couple in America is what... 1 point something?) And look at divorce statistics also... Women are becoming masculine, men are becoming effeminate... men literally changing themselves to become women, women changing themselves to become men, same sex attraction...etc etc.. and on a big scale...
I believe that for men and women to be truly happy and content we must obey his laws rules and regulations.. and what is God's desires for us his children? To be happy... but true eternal happiness can only come by being obedient to our Father in Heaven... What is the first commandments Givin to Adam and Eve ...multiply and replenish the earth... and man shall work by the sweat of his brow... etc... what does society pressure the family to do or rather the devil himself... absolutely thwart the purposing of God...limit the family, and we think the biggest single contributer to that has been getting the women into the worforce....(family gets in the way of a "career") There is no greater, fulfilling, satisfying "career" than being a Mother, a Wife, a cocreater with God... It is a unique role that a man cannot do. Women bare the souls of men... But then along comes the devil and whispers in our ears that it is drudgery and boring and go see the bright lights, get a career ...BE SOMEBODY..no end to the distractions... No female CEO of the biggest corporation in the world can even begin to have the satisfaction and contentment of her accomplishments in the business world compare to the quiet peaceful satisfaction of raising children unto the Lord and being a cocreater with Him.. it is unique it is wonderful and it is beautiful... and it sometimes brings pain and sorrow but it is designed that way for our own experience and good..
My wife has givin birth to 14 wonderful children and all are still with us on earth, and yes we have received all the derogatory comments throughout life... And let me tell you something my wife eats and drinks the gospel of Jesús Christ. She has never desired to have a "career" outside the home, why? Because God has Givin her that peace that only He can give and that can only come from being obedient to Him... I know that she will receive a crown and an exaltation beyond our earthly comprensión. And i very much wonder if i will even qualify... Does she have sorrow also? Absolutely... and it mostly comes from our children stepping out of line... but that's life...
God only can give you peace and contentment and it cannot be found in sin... but human nature is to try and fill that void that only God can fill with other distractions, and there is no end to the distractions...
We both came from large family's and we both wanted a large family and for that matter we both want eternal increase we NEVER have wanted to limit our family and have loved the arrival of every one , beautiful gifts from God.... Imagine if God decided to stop at 2... and yet that is the the way of "normal" family life in our society... is something wrong? Each one can answer for themselves. We teach our children to never even think of limiting their family's and to be grateful to God for every blessed one of those precious gifts from Him.
Please do not misunderstand me as the intent of this is to encourage others to count our blessings and give all glory to God and to endure to the end with an eye looking forward to the prize that He promises to those that are faithful..
And maybe have some hope in this family bashing destructive society...
May God bless us all and grant the good desires of our hearts...

zionminded
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1438

Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by zionminded »

Women in the church do not have equal standing.

Only a man may preside.
All must confess and be interviewed by a man.
Only a man may hold executive positions, and even general women's organizations report up to men, instead of being on there own.
Young men get bigger budgets in wards, due to scouting.
We have a male god, and while we identify with a mother in heaven, we hide her.
We teach men are less, so they need priesthood to help them, while women are naturally virtuous so they don't need it; this is a horrible statement of men and women. Can you imagine saying white people are so good they don't need priesthood, but black people are carnal so we'll give them priesthood and stewardship to help them grow.
No women exist in church discipline counsels.
Women are told to not give blessings.
Women are told in the temple to oath to a man, while men oath to god.


Has the church made progress, yes! But there is more room for equality. Im all for gender roles, but our beloved church is living in 1945.

Ann
captain of 10
Posts: 31

Re: Is it wrong to be a feminist?

Post by Ann »

butterfly wrote:What aspects of the feminist agenda are out of step with what God wants for His daughters?
I've heard several complaints that women who choose anything other than marriage and/or kids are not following the Savior. Is this accurate or just a cultural perception?

Is it wrong for a woman to go to college, get degrees (not just a husband), and start a career in something she's skilled at and loves doing?
Is it wrong for her to develop her own faith to use the priesthood, which God can share with her even if she doesn't have a husband?
Is it wrong for her to turn down marriage, to choose to remain single as long as she remains chaste?
Or if she is married, is it wrong to choose to have a career instead of kids?
Is it wrong for her to join the military?

Why do some people believe that it's wrong for a woman to be successful in life outside of marriage and children?


The point is that the commandment given so long ago to multiply and replenish the earth has never been revoked. It still stands today. Nor is man (or woman) meant to be alone, which was provided for before the command to multiply.

No, It is not selfish to get an education. President Hinckley encouraged girls to do it. You never know what life will throw at you, and you might need it at some point. But, you should never "choose" to forgo marriage and children because you want the education and career more. That is disobedience. That said, just because someone proposes does not mean you have to accept. He needs to be right for you. But don't pass up what is right and good for that which is disobedient and selfish. Get your education, you really should if you can, but do that which is right and good always.

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