Sealed portion of the plates

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jwharton
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Location: USA

Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

freedomforall wrote:Who is Michael?

Michael

Who is like God. Mentioned in Dan. 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 1:9; Rev. 12:7. He is called the Archangel. Latter-day revelation informs us that Michael is Adam, the Ancient of Days (Dan. 7), a prince, and the patriarch of the human family (D&C 27:11; 107:53–56; 128:21). See also Adam.

Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Book of Life)

Jude 1:9
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

D&C 27:11
11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;

Dan. 7:22 (13, 22)
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Verse 22 reveals that Michael, the archangel is not the Most High.

Here is a good description of Adam/Michael's role in the scheme of things:

D&C 107:53-56
53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.
54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.
55 And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever.
56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.

Adam

The name Adam is given to the first man of the human family on this earth as cited in the account of the Creation in the books of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham and in many instances in the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. From these scriptures we learn that Adam is the father and patriarch of the human race on the earth. The aggregate of the scriptures certifies that his transgression in the garden of Eden, although designated as a “fall,” was necessary to the advancement and spiritual progress of humanity on this earth, and Adam rightly should be honored, not denigrated. Adam is the Ancient of Days and is also known as Michael. He is the archangel and will come again to the earth in power and glory as the patriarch of the human family preparatory to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Dan. 7:9–14; D&C 116; HC 3:385–87; 4:207–8).

From latter-day revelation we learn that Adam had a pure and perfect language that was both written and spoken (Moses 6:5–6); that he was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ (Moses 6:51–63); that he was baptized in water and received the Holy Ghost (Moses 6:64–68); and that he was visited personally by the Lord (D&C 107:55–56). Other references to Adam include Luke 3:38; Rom. 5:12–21; 1 Cor. 11:9; 15:20–22, 45–49; 1 Tim. 2:13; 2 Ne. 2:20–26; Mosiah 3:11, 16; D&C 29:34–44; 107:41–57; Moses 2–6. See also Eve; Fall of Adam and Eve.
Of course our Adam of 6,000 years ago isn't the Most High.
There were cycles of Creation that preceded this cycle.
So, our Adam had His God and His Redeemer, etc.

But, so far as WE are concerned, Adam is OUR Father and OUR God.
Notice verse 55 where the Lord says "I have set thee to be at the head".
While Adam was Michael as pertaining to the Creation then concluding...
That Adam also became the Eloheim pertaining to the Creation that followed.
It is all a matter of perspective and sorting things out in their proper context.
This can be difficult to do unless you understand the end from the beginning.
Each Creation is its own eternity and has its own definitive context.
But, these cycles also have a significant amount of overlap as well.
This period of overlap is what I call the alhpa/omega phase.

The Michael-Adam of the Creation coming to a close becomes the Eloheim-Adam of the Creation that follows.

When you make reference to Adam as Michael, you are referencing His role at the end times.
When you make reference to Adam as Eloheim, you are referencing His role in the beginning times.

It's just a matter of which Creation you are making reference to Him from.

freedomforall
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Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

jwharton wrote:
freedomforall wrote:Who is Michael?

Michael

Who is like God. Mentioned in Dan. 10:13, 21; 12:1; Jude 1:9; Rev. 12:7. He is called the Archangel. Latter-day revelation informs us that Michael is Adam, the Ancient of Days (Dan. 7), a prince, and the patriarch of the human family (D&C 27:11; 107:53–56; 128:21). See also Adam.

Dan 12:1
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Book of Life)

Jude 1:9
9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

D&C 27:11
11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;

Dan. 7:22 (13, 22)
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Verse 22 reveals that Michael, the archangel is not the Most High.

Here is a good description of Adam/Michael's role in the scheme of things:

D&C 107:53-56
53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.
54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.
55 And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever.
56 And Adam stood up in the midst of the congregation; and, notwithstanding he was bowed down with age, being full of the Holy Ghost, predicted whatsoever should befall his posterity unto the latest generation.

Adam

The name Adam is given to the first man of the human family on this earth as cited in the account of the Creation in the books of Genesis, Moses, and Abraham and in many instances in the New Testament, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine and Covenants. From these scriptures we learn that Adam is the father and patriarch of the human race on the earth. The aggregate of the scriptures certifies that his transgression in the garden of Eden, although designated as a “fall,” was necessary to the advancement and spiritual progress of humanity on this earth, and Adam rightly should be honored, not denigrated. Adam is the Ancient of Days and is also known as Michael. He is the archangel and will come again to the earth in power and glory as the patriarch of the human family preparatory to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (Dan. 7:9–14; D&C 116; HC 3:385–87; 4:207–8).

From latter-day revelation we learn that Adam had a pure and perfect language that was both written and spoken (Moses 6:5–6); that he was taught the gospel of Jesus Christ (Moses 6:51–63); that he was baptized in water and received the Holy Ghost (Moses 6:64–68); and that he was visited personally by the Lord (D&C 107:55–56). Other references to Adam include Luke 3:38; Rom. 5:12–21; 1 Cor. 11:9; 15:20–22, 45–49; 1 Tim. 2:13; 2 Ne. 2:20–26; Mosiah 3:11, 16; D&C 29:34–44; 107:41–57; Moses 2–6. See also Eve; Fall of Adam and Eve.
Of course our Adam of 6,000 years ago isn't the Most High.
There were cycles of Creation that preceded this cycle.
So, our Adam had His God and His Redeemer, etc.

But, so far as WE are concerned, Adam is OUR Father and OUR God. This is your own opinion right? You certainly do not state it as such. As far as we are concerned Adam is not our God, never was, never will. Scriptural proof please.
Notice verse 55 where the Lord says "I have set thee to be at the head". Head of the saints, the boss, the leader.
While Adam was Michael as pertaining to the Creation then concluding...
That Adam also became the Eloheim pertaining to the Creation that followed.
It is all a matter of perspective and sorting things out in their proper context.
This can be difficult to do unless you understand the end from the beginning.
Each Creation is its own eternity and has its own definitive context.
But, these cycles also have a significant amount of overlap as well.
This period of overlap is what I call the alhpa/omega phase. Scriptural proof for all these claims are?

The Michael-Adam of the Creation coming to a close becomes the Eloheim-Adam of the Creation that follows. Proof?

When you make reference to Adam as Michael, you are referencing His role at the end times.
When you make reference to Adam as Eloheim, you are referencing His role in the beginning times. Scriptural sources on this are?

It's just a matter of which Creation you are making reference to Him from. God told Moses that He had created many worlds that are inhabited, but that Moses was only being told him that which pertains to the world Moses was standing on. Moses1:39,40 Each of those other worlds involve a creation period coupled with a probation cycle for spirits to gain a body of their own.
So far, all I have seen is personal opinion, offered with no sources of proof. Scriptures reveal that Adam/Michael was like God, but not God.

D&C 29:26
26 But, behold, verily I say unto you, before the earth shall pass away, Michael, mine archangel, shall sound his trump, and then shall all the dead awake, for their graves shall be opened, and they shall come forth—yea, even all.
27 And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father;
This is sound proof that there is someone higher than Michael calling the shots called Father. Michael is not the Father of our spirits, plain and simple. At least I provide substantial proof in the matter.

Now how are you going to explain away how this scriptures means something else altogether?

Here is Jehovah telling his archangel, Michael, to sound the trumpet so all the dead will rise. Then He proceeds to divide the spirits into two groups, the righteous on His right and the wicked on His left. And only then is The Father mentioned. And it isn't Michael being inferred as Father.

freedomforall
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Posts: 16479
Location: WEST OF THE NEW JERUSALEM

Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

jwharton wrote:
freedomforall wrote:Who is the Son of Man?

Jesus Christ, Son of Man

one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven: Dan. 7:13 . ( Rev. 1:13 ; Rev. 14:14 . )

Son of man hath power on earth: Matt. 9:6 . ( Mark 2:10 ; Luke 5:24 . )
shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come: Matt. 10:23 . ( Matt. 25:13 ; Luke 18:8 ; D&C 58:65 . )
Son of man came eating and drinking: Matt. 11:19 . ( Luke 7:34 . )
Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath: Matt. 12:8 . ( Mark 2:28 ; Luke 6:5 . )
whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: Matt. 12:32 . ( Luke 12:10 . )
shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in … the earth: Matt. 12:40 .
He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man: Matt. 13:37 .
Son of man shall send forth his angels: Matt. 13:41 .
Whom do men say that I the Son of man am: Matt. 16:13 .
Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father: Matt. 16:27 .
not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming: Matt. 16:28 . ( Matt. 24:27, 37, 39 ; Mark 13:26 ; D&C 45:39 ; D&C 61:38 ; D&C 63:53 ; D&C 64:23 ; D&C 68:11 ; D&C 130:14, 17 . )
Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen: Matt. 17:9 . ( Mark 9:9 . )
Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them: Matt. 17:12 . ( Mark 8:31 ; Luke 9:22 . )
Son of man shall be betrayed: Matt. 17:22 . ( Matt. 20:18 ; Matt. 26:2, 24, 45 ; Mark 14:21, 41 ; Luke 22:22, 48 . )
Son of man is come to save that which was lost: Matt. 18:11 . ( Luke 19:10 . )
when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory: Matt. 19:28 .
as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto: Matt. 20:28 . ( Mark 10:45 . )
appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: Matt. 24:30 .
see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven: Matt. 24:30 . ( Mark 13:26 ; Luke 21:27 . )
see the Son of man sitting on the right hand: Matt. 26:64 . ( Mark 14:62 ; Luke 22:69 . )
of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed: Mark 8:38 . ( Luke 9:26 . )
written of the Son of man, that he must suffer: Mark 9:12 .
Son of man is delivered into the hands of men: Mark 9:31 . ( Mark 10:33 ; Luke 9:44 ; Luke 24:7 . )
cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake: Luke 6:22 .
Son of man is not come to destroy men’s lives: Luke 9:56 .
Son of man hath not where to lay his head: Luke 9:58 .
as Jonas was a sign … so shall also the Son of man be: Luke 11:30 .
him shall the Son of man also confess: Luke 12:8 .
Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not: Luke 12:40 .
ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man: Luke 17:22 .
lightning … so shall also the Son of man be: Luke 17:24 .
days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man: Luke 17:26 .
thus shall it be … when the Son of man is revealed: Luke 17:30 .
all things … concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished: Luke 18:31 .
accounted worthy … to stand before the Son of man: Luke 21:36 .
no man hath ascended up to heaven, but … the Son of man: John 3:13 . ( John 8:28 ; John 12:34 . )
as Moses lifted … so must the Son of man be lifted up: John 3:14 .
execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man: John 5:27 .
everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give: John 6:27 .
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man: John 6:53 .
if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up: John 6:62 .
hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified: John 12:23 . ( John 13:31 . )
What is … the son of man, that thou visitest him: Heb. 2:6 .
in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man: Rev. 1:13 .

done unto the Son of Man even as they listed: D&C 49:6 .
Son of Man cometh not in the form of a woman: D&C 49:22 .
Son of Man shall come down in heaven, clothed in the brightness of his glory: D&C 65:5 .
those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man: D&C 76:16 .
build a house … that the Son of Man might have a place to manifest himself: D&C 109:5 .
Son of Man hath descended below them all: D&C 122:8 .
if thou livest … thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man: D&C 130:15
There is a definite connection between Jehovah, Son of Man, Son of God and the Savior of the World.
As I have said before, that which happens in the meridian of time is a type and shadow of the alpha/omega phase.
I would have to write a massive tome to try and sort all of these passages out in their subtle nuances.
I'll spare you the effort that I am confident would be a vain attempt because words alone are insufficient.
Just please keep in mind the title Son of Man pertains to Jehovah and it is intended to draw your attention to the beginning. Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same person as I have already shown. Jehovah/First born in Spirit is the Father and Jesus/Flesh/Savior is the Son, this Father and Son as described in Mosiah 15:1-5
Many things spoken with regard to Jesus as Son of Man is a reflection of the parallels to what Son of Man does in the beginning. Jevovah in the flesh is the Son of Man.
They are definitely connected and this connection can become very precisely understood by way of the doctrine I am attempting to share. I;ll describe my doctrine right out of scripture that is shared to everyone if they read it, that is!
Mosiah 15:1-5 says it all. God, Jehovah comes to earth and takes upon Himself a body. The body of flesh and bones is the Savior of the World, even Jehovah/Jesus Christ...the Father and the Son. However, there is a higher God in heaven whose voice was heard saying "this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This is the Father of Jehovah, but it is not Michael. Many times in scripture we see the words Most High, but there is never a name attached, only "O Lord God Almighty!" And then in D&C 109 we have people praying to Jehovah. Don't believe it? read the whole section.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

FFA, I showed you in the scriptures you quoted what I was talking about.
At Adam-ondi-Ahman all righteous posterity of Adam was present.
They all acknowledged Him as Michael the archangel, the Ancient of Days.
And, after this acknowledgement was made the Lord then made a pronouncement:
"And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head..."

At that time Micheal advanced from being the Michael of the previous Creation who came in its latter days to be at the head of the new Creation as its Eloheim.

Each cycle of Creation has an Adam at its head as its Eloheim who was the previous Creation's Michael.
Each cycle of Creation has an Adam at its end times as its Michael who becomes the Eloheim of the following Creation.

The scriptural proof for there being overlap between the cycles rests upon taking the 7 days of Creation as a blueprint.
If each Day of Creation is a seal or is a millennium as the D&C says, then this is a direct implication of it all.
Michael-Adam comes at the tail end of the 6th Millennium and rules and reigns during the 7th Millennium with His Son, Son of Man.
Simultaneously, there is a new Day 1 that begins because Zion is the Father's Kingdom which is a Celestial Kingdom.

My paradigm rests upon the foundation of whether or not the creation account is actually a coded blueprint of Creation itself or not.
My investigations of it being so has so far proven to be a most revealing and accurate manner to interpret it.
Of course it has very uncomfortable ramifications for just about every category of religious involvement right now,
but, as far as I'm concerned, this is all the more an indication that it is really on to something good.
If it is true then there is massive amounts of repentance for everyone to hustle and get into compliance with.
Its entire context and conclusion is that we have all fallen short in so many ways and it gives clarity as to how.
While this may be a difficult pill to swallow for many, it gives clarity on many things to repent of.
That's a good thing in my view.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

freedomforall wrote:Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same person as I have already shown.
Jehovah/First born in Spirit is the Father and Jesus/Flesh/Savior is the Son, this Father and Son as described in Mosiah 15:1-5
You have ignored the distinctions I made earlier about the nature of flesh and bone bodies.
I'll give you a brief recap. Please make an effort to include this in what I say.

Are my wife and I one and the same individual person? No, we are not.
Are my wife and I "one flesh" in the New and Everlasting Covenant? Yes, we are. We are commanded to be so and we are.
Can my wife say, "If you have seen me you have seen my husband." Yes, she can. And, not because she and I are one and the same person but because we are united in our marriage covenant as a single flesh and bone being composed of two members, she and me. She is me and I am her, insofar as our covenant is concerned. To God we are a single being of flesh and bone. There are many types of flesh and bone beings because there are many covenants that become the basis upon which such are brought to pass.

You are taking what Jesus said to Philip to mean that Jesus is one and the same person as his Father.
But, that isn't exactly what is meant by what Jesus said anymore than my wife saying she is my flesh means she actually is me.

When you consider how flesh and bone bodies actually work through the mechanism of covenants then you can see things clearer.
It is tempting to over simplify things and ignore these fine-grained distinctions I am trying to introduce to you.
But, in doing so, these over simplifications makes the additional depth invisible and indistinguishable.
And, unfortunately, this makes the current presence of the Father and the Son as flesh and bone beings invisible to you.
freedomforall wrote:Jevovah in the flesh is the Son of Man.
Yes, and a flesh and bone being is a covenant body of individuals just as the apostle Paul describes it.
Jesus was a single individual who by passing through the office and responsibility of Savior became a member of Jehovah's body of flesh and bone.
Every cycle of Creation requires a Savior and there is a royal lineage of Saviors who are all members of the flesh and bone body of Jehovah.
freedomforall wrote:Mosiah 15:1-5 says it all. God, Jehovah comes to earth and takes upon Himself a body. The body of flesh and bones is the Savior of the World, even Jehovah/Jesus Christ...the Father and the Son. However, there is a higher God in heaven whose voice was heard saying "this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This is the Father of Jehovah, but it is not Michael. Many times in scripture we see the words Most High, but there is never a name attached, only "O Lord God Almighty!" And then in D&C 109 we have people praying to Jehovah. Don't believe it? read the whole section.
I didn't say the higher God in heaven was Michael.
You are who keeps insisting that I'm saying that but I am not saying that.
This higher God in heaven is Eloheim, who was Michael in the previous cycle of Creation.
Michael becomes the Eloheim.

freedomforall
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

jwharton wrote:
freedomforall wrote:What does all this mean?: Who created/made the world and all things in it?

JST John 1:1–34 (Appendix)

1 In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made which was made.
4 In him was the gospel, and the gospel was the life, and the life was the light of men;
5 And the light shineth in the world, and the world perceiveth it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came into the world for a witness, to bear witness of the light, to bear record of the gospel through the Son, unto all, that through him men might believe.
8 He was not that light, but came to bear witness of that light,
9 Which was the true light, which lighteth every man who cometh into the world;
10 Even the Son of God. He who was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God; only to them who believe on his name.
13 He was born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the same word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bear witness of him, and cried, saying, This is he of whom I spake; He who cometh after me, is preferred before me; for he was before me.
16 For in the beginning was the Word, even the Son, who is made flesh, and sent unto us by the will of the Father. And as many as believe on his name shall receive of his fullness. And of his fullness have all we received, even immortality and eternal life, through his grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses, but life and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 For the law was after a carnal commandment, to the administration of death; but the gospel was after the power of an endless life, through Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father.
19 And no man hath seen God at any time, except he hath borne record of the Son; for except it is through him no man can be saved.
20 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem, to ask him; Who art thou?
21 And he confessed, and denied not that he was Elias; but confessed, saying; I am not the Christ.
22 And they asked him, saying; How then art thou Elias? And he said, I am not that Elias who was to restore all things. And they asked him, saying, Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
23 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
24 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as saith the prophet Esaias.
25 And they who were sent were of the Pharisees.
26 And they asked him, and said unto him; Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not the Christ, nor Elias who was to restore all things, neither that prophet?
27 John answered them, saying; I baptize with water, but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
28 He it is of whom I bear record. He is that prophet, even Elias, who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose shoe’s latchet I am not worthy to unloose, or whose place I am not able to fill; for he shall baptize, not only with water, but with fire, and with the Holy Ghost.
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and said; Behold the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sin of the world!
30 And John bare record of him unto the people, saying, This is he of whom I said; After me cometh a man who is preferred before me; for he was before me, and I knew him, and that he should be made manifest to Israel; therefore am I come baptizing with water.
31 And John bare record, saying; When he was baptized of me, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
32 And I knew him; for he who sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me; Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he who baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
33 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
34 These things were done in Bethabara, beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing.
The Father and the Son together created/made the world and all things in it.
Joseph Smith Jr. taught that the word "create" is most properly understood as "organize".
All that was created was in fact a labor to organize already existing elements.
And, this process was something performed by the power of the word of God.
This means that it was accomplished by a series of priesthood ordinances.

The conclusion my doctrine points to is that this is the temple ordinances we are doing to organize Adam's eternal family.

The "world" spoken of isn't the physical cosmic elements of actual stars, planets, moons, etc.
We simply borrow semantics from the physical cosmos to describe the spiritual cosmos of Adam's eternal family.

When Adam and Eve (Zion) are redeemed by the Redeemer all of the temple work will be cleansed and set in order.
The Father and the Son will rule and reign during the millennium and perform this great labor to organize (judge) all the souls of mankind.

What happens in the meridian of time is a type and a shadow of what also happens during the Alpha/Omega stage of things.
I still see a lack of scriptural proof on any of this. You have confirmed to me that it is your doctrine, so in reality there is no scriptural proof. Formed opinions are not proof. "Joseph Smith tried", or "Brigham Young tried" is not proof of anything except that they may have exerted themselves greatly to get people to accept that wild theory. And I add that it was more BY than JS But it was never made part of Canon...and for a good reason...it warps the whole plan of salvation. After people read scriptures over and over again they soon come to realize that a few other people have thrown their own philosophy out there as if to become a founder of a new doctrine because they won't accept teachings from today. This is dangerous ground to tread on. I have read scriptures enough to recognize the falsity of this Adam-God fantasy. I cannot attest for anyone else on this form. Some members of the church have not read the Book of Mormon even once cover to cover. Sad. Some may have read it once or twice, but is that feasting on the word? Not hardly. Then there are those that adopt another doctrine and then to proceed to twist and distort the panoply of scripture to fit that paradigm...eh!...not my way of going things. I want my doctrine to be so real as if I was sitting next to Jesus having Him dictate it. Oh, that's right. I have his teachings and the plan of salvation right in my hands.

Whoever tried to come up with this Adam-God stuff must have put the scriptures down and said to themselves "this can't be right, so I'm going to teach a different slant on this to make it more believable. And I don't care who it was either.

We're supposed to study scripture, feast upon it, not take words of others and run with it? Joseph Smith was only an instrument used to bring forth the word of God. It is the word of God that suits me fine. Any other stuff isn't going to supersede it This is why the JOD is not Canon, those comments are the words of man, not God given. Had they been they'd be in the scriptures along with the what we already have. This, I'm for sure and for certain.

I sense that you are avoiding scripture as much as possible. You have yet to provide scriptural proof of this theory, only what you believe. Well, I believe that pure air is invisible. I believe water is wet. I believe gravity is not suction. I believe that man has created at least one type of an aircraft weighing 970,000 pds that can lift off the ground and fly. I believe man has come up with a jet-powered wing-suit enabling them to fly at high speeds. I believe there are massive ships out on the waters weighing millions of pounds staying afloat. I believe God sits on a throne and Jehovah/Jesus sits on his right hand on his throne. I believe when I die I will be able to meet all the Holy Prophets that I have never had the pleasure of seeing. And many more things as well. But why should I accept the Adam-God doctrine at face value?

jwharton
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Location: USA

Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

freedomforall wrote:I still see a lack of scriptural proof on any of this.
I don't claim PROOF.
I claim direct support.
There is a difference.

The scriptures are written in such a way that there are several possible meanings available.
freedomforall wrote:You have confirmed to me that it is your doctrine, so in reality there is no scriptural proof.
I said it is a manner of understanding scripture that nobody else I know of currently advocates.
It isn't something I made up that I can take any personal credit for and I've made that clear several times over now.
It is just something sitting in the scriptures waiting for anyone to discover and reach the same conclusions as I have.
freedomforall wrote:Formed opinions are not proof. "Joseph Smith tried", or "Brigham Young tried" is not proof of anything except that they may have exerted themselves greatly to get people to accept that wild theory. And I add that it was more BY than JS But it was never made part of Canon...and for a good reason...it warps the whole plan of salvation.
It was canon under Brigham Young and it was the core of the temple endowment.
And, Brigham Young clearly stated he got all of his doctrine from Joseph Smith Jr.
It took many decades to purge out the deeper doctrines of the Father they attempted to establish.
But, they are still just as loud and proud in the Bible as they ever were, which is where Joseph claimed they could all be taught from.
If you take the Creation account as I said and apply all of the interpretations I have suggested...
you can re-engineer the whole restoration and the Father's Kingdom from the Bible alone.
This is what Joseph Smith Jr. claimed in one of his final sermons and I indeed believe him because I found how it can be done.
freedomforall wrote:After people read scriptures over and over again they soon come to realize that a few other people have thrown their own philosophy out there as if to become a founder of a new doctrine because they won't accept teachings from today. This is dangerous ground to tread on. I have read scriptures enough to recognize the falsity of this Adam-God fantasy.
You have yet to demonstrate you understand it in the way Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young intended for it to be understood.
Yes, many people outright rejected it and many people misunderstood it and made a mess of it, on that we can agree.
But, as of yet, is all it has been officially done is thrown under the bus. Nobody has so far actually made sense of it.
However, I believe I have been enabled to see how it does in fact make sense and I am simply sharing it.
freedomforall wrote:I cannot attest for anyone else on this form. Some members of the church have not read the Book of Mormon even once cover to cover. Sad. Some may have read it once or twice, but is that feasting on the word? Not hardly. Then there are those that adopt another doctrine and then to proceed to twist and distort the panoply of scripture to fit that paradigm...eh!...not my way of going things. I want my doctrine to be so real as if I was sitting next to Jesus having Him dictate it. Oh, that's right. I have his teachings and the plan of salvation right in my hands.
I also have the plan of salvation right in my hands.
freedomforall wrote:Whoever tried to come up with this Adam-God stuff must have put the scriptures down and said to themselves "this can't be right, so I'm going to teach a different slant on this to make it more believable. And I don't care who it was either.
As I said, you have yet to even grasp what its intended meaning is.
freedomforall wrote:We're supposed to study scripture, feast upon it, not take words of others and run with it? Joseph Smith was only an instrument used to bring forth the word of God. It is the word of God that suits me fine. Any other stuff isn't going to supersede it This is why the JOD is not Canon, those comments are the words of man, not God given. Had they been they'd be in the scriptures along with the what we already have. This, I'm for sure and for certain.
While I may not have every last little detail pinned down as precisely as it should be, I am ever so grateful that I didn't so readily throw the early doctrines of the Father under the bus because they enabled me to keep my testimony of the restoration. They have also given me a very high degree of clarity on extremely real spiritual dangers right now that people face. There is an incredible amount of pressure and influence to heap contempt upon the higher Celestial Order and the Father's Plan in favor of the Luciferian counterfeit that has us in league with the world and building up Babylon. I know very precisely what to expect when the time comes for Zion to be cleansed and redeemed and set in order. I understand the basis upon which the Luciferian usurpation will be exposed, cast down and purged. There are many who currently heap mockery and ridicule onto the Son of Man who think they are actually the righteous ones. There is going to be a very major turning of the tables and God has graced me with the light and truth to see it coming rather far in advance. This is a precious blessing to me that I am grateful of. Perhaps there are others who could benefit in a similar manner and if so then the Holy Spirit will give them whatever inspiration they need. I'm also confident I will also incur a substantial amount of the mockery and ridicule that the Son of Man is receiving but that's just how it always goes. I have beneath me the foundation of the Father's Celestial Plan and the doctrines of the Celestial Order that go along with it.

You are happy with the current Telestial Order of things and so I feel no great urgency to convince you otherwise.
I only feel to caution you to be careful in what you determine to condemn because you know not what you are condemning.
freedomforall wrote:I sense that you are avoiding scripture as much as possible.
All of my beliefs are supported directly from scriptures, which scriptures I have shared many times now.
What is obvious to me is you avoid all of the scriptures I have presented that support my beliefs.
freedomforall wrote:You have yet to provide scriptural proof of this theory, only what you believe.
The manner in which holy writ is presented doesn't make concrete proof available.
The language of holy writ is multi-layered and open to being read on different levels.
It is imperative that people have the Holy Spirit accompany them as they read in order to obtain value.
The very fact that you require proof and think that I am actually responsible to prove anything is telling.
I am merely offering a point of view from which if explored a new level of depth can be viewed first-hand.
You don't need me injecting in this or that in order to simply explore this paradigm all by yourself.
freedomforall wrote:Well, I believe that pure air is invisible. I believe water is wet. I believe gravity is not suction. I believe that man has created at least one type of an aircraft weighing 970,000 pds that can lift off the ground and fly. I believe man has come up with a jet-powered wing-suit enabling them to fly at high speeds. I believe there are massive ships out on the waters weighing millions of pounds staying afloat. I believe God sits on a throne and Jehovah/Jesus sits on his right hand on his throne. I believe when I die I will be able to meet all the Holy Prophets that I have never had the pleasure of seeing. And many more things as well. But why should I accept the Adam-God doctrine at face value?
Is all of this overburden (mining term) really necessary?
I've pointed out a vein of high-grade virgin ore and is all you want to do is blah blah blah.

freedomforall
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

jwharton wrote:
freedomforall wrote:Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same person as I have already shown.
Jehovah/First born in Spirit is the Father and Jesus/Flesh/Savior is the Son, this Father and Son as described in Mosiah 15:1-5
You have ignored the distinctions I made earlier about the nature of flesh and bone bodies.
I'll give you a brief recap. Please make an effort to include this in what I say.

Are my wife and I one and the same individual person? No, we are not.
Are my wife and I "one flesh" in the New and Everlasting Covenant? Yes, we are. We are commanded to be so and we are.
Can my wife say, "If you have seen me you have seen my husband." Yes, she can. And, not because she and I are one and the same person but because we are united in our marriage covenant as a single flesh and bone being composed of two members, she and me. She is me and I am her, insofar as our covenant is concerned. To God we are a single being of flesh and bone. There are many types of flesh and bone beings because there are many covenants that become the basis upon which such are brought to pass.

You are taking what Jesus said to Philip to mean that Jesus is one and the same person as his Father.
But, that isn't exactly what is meant by what Jesus said anymore than my wife saying she is my flesh means she actually is me.

When you consider how flesh and bone bodies actually work through the mechanism of covenants then you can see things clearer.
It is tempting to over simplify things and ignore these fine-grained distinctions I am trying to introduce to you.
But, in doing so, these over simplifications makes the additional depth invisible and indistinguishable.
And, unfortunately, this makes the current presence of the Father and the Son as flesh and bone beings invisible to you.
freedomforall wrote:Jevovah in the flesh is the Son of Man.
Yes, and a flesh and bone being is a covenant body of individuals just as the apostle Paul describes it.
Jesus was a single individual who by passing through the office and responsibility of Savior became a member of Jehovah's body of flesh and bone.
Every cycle of Creation requires a Savior and there is a royal lineage of Saviors who are all members of the flesh and bone body of Jehovah.
freedomforall wrote:Mosiah 15:1-5 says it all. God, Jehovah comes to earth and takes upon Himself a body. The body of flesh and bones is the Savior of the World, even Jehovah/Jesus Christ...the Father and the Son. However, there is a higher God in heaven whose voice was heard saying "this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." This is the Father of Jehovah, but it is not Michael. Many times in scripture we see the words Most High, but there is never a name attached, only "O Lord God Almighty!" And then in D&C 109 we have people praying to Jehovah. Don't believe it? read the whole section.
I didn't say the higher God in heaven was Michael.
You are who keeps insisting that I'm saying that but I am not saying that.
This higher God in heaven is Eloheim, who was Michael in the previous cycle of Creation.
Michael becomes the Eloheim.
I can't keep going round and round over this. You believe what you want. The church says this doctrine is false, I say it is false...scriptures do not corroborate it...so it must be false. God telling Adam that he will be at the head does not mean anything other than Michael being the leader of the saints that go into battle to conquer Satan and his armies...and nothing else. I told you how the cycles work and yet all I get back is more things to reject. I'm not so weak and frail as to accept this stuff which has no real basis. I assume you only want to debate and argue rather than take scripture for what it is and not what some people claim them to be. This is just plain foolishness.
Are you going to become Michael of some future world? You can if you want, but according to scripture and church teachings each male and female that keep the temple covenants and so forth will have their own dominion, principality and worlds, and they will people them as well.
Sorry, it has taken years to learn what I know through prayer, study and pondering, nor did I accept it simply because "the other guy said to" so I'm not interested in changing it now. You see, I do accept orthodox Mormon teachings of the 21st century. My salvation is based on what I have learned from the writings in the Book of Mormon.
None of this Adam-God stuff effects our salvation as long as we keep the commandments, covenants and endure to the end as promised. This other stuff is needless.
I suppose if Brian is okay with this doctrine being promoted, then who am I to say otherwise? I've said my piece and provided scripture after scripture in such a way as to prove my points. Other people here can chose for themselves. Some here have been riveted by it already. So be it. I may as well be talking to a mud covered, brick wall.

jwharton
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Posts: 3067
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

freedomforall wrote:I can't keep going round and round over this. You believe what you want. The church says this doctrine is false, I say it is false...scriptures do not corroborate it...so it must be false.
A more appropriate response given the facts at hand would be along these lines....
I'm sorry I have been assuming things about your beliefs.
I realize now that what you believe isn't what I thought.
However, you have gone somewhere with your beliefs that I choose not to go.
I feel to caution you that I believe you have gone somewhere you shouldn't.
But, since I don't have the patience or the motivation to clearly see things as you do in order to fully judge, I will just reserve any judgment at all.
I sincerely wish you the very best and I will no longer trouble you about your beliefs.
freedomforall wrote:God telling Adam that he will be at the head does not mean anything other than Michael being the leader of the saints that go into battle to conquer Satan and his armies...and nothing else.
Uh, do I need to remind you that Michael-Adam's battle against the adversary was won not too long after he was cast out in the wilderness?
Adam and Eve were redeemed in their lifetime as is taught in the Pearl of Great Price.
So, Adam had already won that fight by the time of Adam-ondi-Ahman, 3 years prior to his passing away.
That's how Adam is able to perform all of the temple work during the Millennium before the adversary is loosed again.
freedomforall wrote:I told you how the cycles work and yet all I get back is more things to reject. I'm not so weak and frail as to accept this stuff which has no real basis. I assume you only want to debate and argue rather than take scripture for what it is and not what some people claim them to be. This is just plain foolishness.
This isn't a debate to me. It is an excellent way for each of us to deepen our understandings.
I do get wary of all of the personal wrangling you seem to want to inject in, but I am simply here to frankly share and to accept anyone's challenges if they feel inclined to offer such.
freedomforall wrote:Are you going to become Michael of some future world?
I already am a member of Michael's body of flesh and bone.
We are in the latter-days when Michael stands up and faces a time of trouble.
This is the body of the Melchizedek Priesthood established through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith Jr.
We have already been through the Garden of Eden in Jackson County Missouri and transgressed and were driven out.
We are currently in the lone and dreary wilderness of the Great Basin and under the buffetings of the adversary.
If I am true and faithful in all things that I have covenanted with the Father to build up His Celestial Kingdom...
I will remain a member of Michael-Adam's body of flesh and bone when Zion is redeemed and attain exaltation in that capacity.
This doesn't mean that I am Michael in and of myself, but it means that I have played my part as a member of His body.
And, for me, I consider this a great honor to be a part of this noble effort.
It gives great purpose to all of the mundane things we are asked to do.
freedomforall wrote:You can if you want, but according to scripture and church teachings each male and female that keep the temple covenants and so forth will have their own dominion, principality and worlds, and they will people them as well.
That is exactly what my wife and I are doing right now by having our posterity sealed to us in the temple.
I don't need a planet of my own in order to accomplish these things.
I just need to have an inheritance with the Father and His Kingdom.
Everything promised in the temple can be fulfilled here and now by those who are faithful.
If your version of the plan of salvation requires you to acquire a habitable planet of your own, you should be feeling pretty frustrated right now.
freedomforall wrote:Sorry, it has taken years to learn what I know through prayer, study and pondering, nor did I accept it simply because "the other guy said to" so I'm not interested in changing it now. You see, I do accept orthodox Mormon teachings of the 21st century. My salvation is based on what I have learned from the writings in the Book of Mormon.
A Christian would use the exact same basis to justify rejecting the Book of Mormon.
Is all I am doing is inviting you to see more of what is available, not take away truths you currently hold.
freedomforall wrote:None of this Adam-God stuff effects our salvation as long as we keep the commandments, covenants and endure to the end as promised. This other stuff is needless.
For just salvation I agree, but in order to be proven true and faithful in all things and to become exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, you must truly know the Father and the Son here and now in the flesh.
freedomforall wrote:I suppose if Brian is okay with this doctrine being promoted, then who am I to say otherwise? I've said my piece and provided scripture after scripture in such a way as to prove my points. Other people here can chose for themselves. Some here have been riveted by it already. So be it. I may as well be talking to a mud covered, brick wall.
Is all you have proven is that you disbelieve the various false interpretations that are out there surrounding the Adam-God teachings of Brigham Young.
But, you have had my agreement upon this particular point all along. I agree there are many false interpretations out there to beware of.

The reason we are going around in circles is because you decline to open your mind to the possibility that there is a way in which these teachings can be understood differently and in such a way that there are no points of disagreement with the standard works. You like the level of depth you are currently at and you have no desire to involve yourself in my exploration of this lost paradigm.

In short, I have invited you to have a look at the scriptures in a new light by means of unsealing a new way of reading them.
You have flat out rejected my invitation and done everything possible to malign me personally to attempt to dissuade others.

freedomforall
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

jwharton wrote:
freedomforall wrote:I still see a lack of scriptural proof on any of this.
I don't claim PROOF.
I claim direct support.
There is a difference.

The scriptures are written in such a way that there are several possible meanings available. WRONG, the scriptures are not for any private interpretation of man.

JST 2 Pet. 1:20 Knowing this first that, no prophecy of the scriptures is given of any private will of man.

There is no way that we can take from scripture different doctrines without, first, either not really understanding them or having not asked God for their correct meaning. Your doing so is a huge red flag from the get-go, and a direct flaw in thinking you can do so. Scripture clearly says that man's own meaning placed on scripture is prohibited, period.
freedomforall wrote:You have confirmed to me that it is your doctrine, so in reality there is no scriptural proof.
I said it is a manner of understanding scripture that nobody else I know of currently advocates. Well, now you know per JST 2 Pet. 1:20
It isn't something I made up that I can take any personal credit for and I've made that clear several times over now.
It is just something sitting in the scriptures waiting for anyone to discover and reach the same conclusions as I have. Oh, really? Only you believe what you have assumed the scriptures say. Then all you have to do is put little bugs in people's ears to confuse them, instead of allowing them to ask God for the correct interpretation per JST 2 Pet. 1:20.
freedomforall wrote:Formed opinions are not proof. "Joseph Smith tried", or "Brigham Young tried" is not proof of anything except that they may have exerted themselves greatly to get people to accept that wild theory. And I add that it was more BY than JS But it was never made part of Canon...and for a good reason...it warps the whole plan of salvation.
It was canon under Brigham Young and it was the core of the temple endowment. Who really cares? Let God handle the differences instead of trying to change all history back to the stone age. God knows how to fix errors, it isn't up to us to do his correcting. And if God had any problem with today's endowment, he would tell the Prophet. It is not your right to promote dead horses in the name of God.
And, Brigham Young clearly stated he got all of his doctrine from Joseph Smith Jr. Again, who cares? What JS taught that is backed by scripture I'll consider, but that which is backed by hearsay is foolishness. And I don't believe JS taught double doctrines and still be considered a prophet.
It took many decades to purge out the deeper doctrines of the Father they attempted to establish. Why is it your concern? Did God tell you to flush out uncanonized doctrine not worth a plug nickle? It's the Prophets job not your's and you then try to get others to buy into it? Come on! What do you take us for? JST 2 Peter 1:20
But, they are still just as loud and proud in the Bible as they ever were, which is where Joseph claimed they could all be taught from. And just where did he say that? What is your source?
If you take the Creation account as I said and apply all of the interpretations I have suggested...
you can re-engineer the whole restoration and the Father's Kingdom from the Bible alone. Maybe, but you have to have the approval of God. Did you do this?
This is what Joseph Smith Jr. claimed in one of his final sermons and I indeed believe him because I found how it can be done. His sermons are not all scripture. They can still be opinions. All prophets are only prophets when speaking as a prophet, and then and only then...it is through the Holy Ghost speaking to them. They are not allowed to make stuff up as they go. This is why the Bible says:
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but (except) he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Man does not call the shots, God does...that's what makes the difference. If and when he wants a doctrine out he'll tell a prophet to do it, not a man with an ambition of his own.

freedomforall wrote:After people read scriptures over and over again they soon come to realize that a few other people have thrown their own philosophy out there as if to become a founder of a new doctrine because they won't accept teachings from today. This is dangerous ground to tread on. I have read scriptures enough to recognize the falsity of this Adam-God fantasy.
You have yet to demonstrate you understand it in the way Joseph Smith Jr. and Brigham Young intended for it to be understood. I care less what they think. They are not my idols. Leave it up to God to fix things. Don't you trust that he can do his own work? I have demonstrated that you are on a campaign to change people's paradigms based on hearsay, not fact. This is as plain as stink emanating from a bouquet of raunchy armpits.
Yes, many people outright rejected it and many people misunderstood it and made a mess of it, on that we can agree.
But, as of yet, is all it has been officially done is thrown under the bus. Nobody has so far actually made sense of it. I'll let God deal with it. Not my problem. Not yours either as I explained.
However, I believe I have been enabled to see how it does in fact make sense and I am simply sharing it.
freedomforall wrote:I cannot attest for anyone else on this form. Some members of the church have not read the Book of Mormon even once cover to cover. Sad. Some may have read it once or twice, but is that feasting on the word? Not hardly. Then there are those that adopt another doctrine and then to proceed to twist and distort the panoply of scripture to fit that paradigm...eh!...not my way of going things. I want my doctrine to be so real as if I was sitting next to Jesus having Him dictate it. Oh, that's right. I have his teachings and the plan of salvation right in my hands.
I also have the plan of salvation right in my hands. Who's version?
freedomforall wrote:Whoever tried to come up with this Adam-God stuff must have put the scriptures down and said to themselves "this can't be right, so I'm going to teach a different slant on this to make it more believable. And I don't care who it was either.
As I said, you have yet to even grasp what its intended meaning is. I try to not have a wild imagination either. I say this exact thing about the scriptures to you but it doesn't sink in for some reason. My resolve has more clout in the long run because it isn't based on hearsay. Hearsay seems to be the premise of your whole precept. Scripture does not corroborate that doctrine in the least. You on the other hand, haven't demonstrated that you are willing to come up with all the sources for your doctrine so others an make an intelligent comparison...and we already know that scriptures cannot be interpreted properly without the Holy Ghost. There just plain is not several ways to take scripture, that is a wrong belief, proven by scripture.
freedomforall wrote:We're supposed to study scripture, feast upon it, not take words of others and run with it? Joseph Smith was only an instrument used to bring forth the word of God. It is the word of God that suits me fine. Any other stuff isn't going to supersede it This is why the JOD is not Canon, those comments are the words of man, not God given. Had they been they'd be in the scriptures along with the what we already have. This, I'm for sure and for certain.
While I may not have every last little detail pinned down as precisely as it should be, I am ever so grateful that I didn't so readily throw the early doctrines of the Father under the bus because they enabled me to keep my testimony of the restoration. They have also given me a very high degree of clarity on extremely real spiritual dangers right now that people face. There is an incredible amount of pressure and influence to heap contempt upon the higher Celestial Order and the Father's Plan in favor of the Luciferian counterfeit that has us in league with the world and building up Babylon. I know very precisely what to expect when the time comes for Zion to be cleansed and redeemed and set in order. I understand the basis upon which the Luciferian usurpation will be exposed, cast down and purged. There are many who currently heap mockery and ridicule onto the Son of Man who think they are actually the righteous ones. There is going to be a very major turning of the tables and God has graced me with the light and truth to see it coming rather far in advance. This is a precious blessing to me that I am grateful of. Perhaps there are others who could benefit in a similar manner and if so then the Holy Spirit will give them whatever inspiration they need. I'm also confident I will also incur a substantial amount of the mockery and ridicule that the Son of Man is receiving but that's just how it always goes. I have beneath me the foundation of the Father's Celestial Plan and the doctrines of the Celestial Order that go along with it. :)

You are happy with the current Telestial Order of things and so I feel no great urgency to convince you otherwise.
I only feel to caution you to be careful in what you determine to condemn because you know not what you are condemning. ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^ ^:)^
freedomforall wrote:I sense that you are avoiding scripture as much as possible.
All of my beliefs are supported directly from scriptures, which scriptures I have shared many times now.
What is obvious to me is you avoid all of the scriptures I have presented that support my beliefs. It is not the scriptures I avoid, it is your interpretation of them, you know the various interpretations available according to how far one wants to wrest them? This problem has not sunk into your head either as demonstrated by your own words.
freedomforall wrote:You have yet to provide scriptural proof of this theory, only what you believe.
The manner in which holy writ is presented doesn't make concrete proof available. This says it all. =)) =)) =)) Thank you for proving my point so eloquently. :)) :)) :))
The language of holy writ is multi-layered and open to being read on different levels. Wrong. It is based on interpretation of what God is presenting via his prophets, not man's own theories.
It is imperative that people have the Holy Spirit accompany them as they read in order to obtain value. Value? Truth!
The very fact that you require proof and think that I am actually responsible to prove anything is telling. That we all can tell. You want us to believe you don't you? Are you now the new doctrine guru that everyone is supposed to be riveted to just to appease your self aggrandized ego?
I am merely offering a point of view from which if explored a new level of depth can be viewed first-hand. Yours or the Lord's?
You don't need me injecting in this or that in order to simply explore this paradigm all by yourself. And I just can't in all conscience simply take your word for it either. Something to do with the arm of flesh.
freedomforall wrote:Well, I believe that pure air is invisible. I believe water is wet. I believe gravity is not suction. I believe that man has created at least one type of an aircraft weighing 970,000 pds that can lift off the ground and fly. I believe man has come up with a jet-powered wing-suit enabling them to fly at high speeds. I believe there are massive ships out on the waters weighing millions of pounds staying afloat. I believe God sits on a throne and Jehovah/Jesus sits on his right hand on his throne. I believe when I die I will be able to meet all the Holy Prophets that I have never had the pleasure of seeing. And many more things as well. But why should I accept the Adam-God doctrine at face value?
Is all of this overburden (mining term) really necessary? Yes, it brings everything into focus and clarifies the needless attempt to believe your doctrine that you cannot back up with scripture. It is all clear now that I am right!...not your mind, however, notwithstanding.
I've pointed out a vein of high-grade virgin ore and is all you want to do is blah blah blah.
All I've seen presented is a fictitious moon rock painted with gold.

freedomforall
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

jwharton wrote:
freedomforall wrote:I can't keep going round and round over this. You believe what you want. The church says this doctrine is false, I say it is false...scriptures do not corroborate it...so it must be false.
A more appropriate response given the facts at hand would be along these lines....
I'm sorry I have been assuming things about your beliefs.
I realize now that what you believe isn't what I thought.
However, you have gone somewhere with your beliefs that I choose not to go.
I feel to caution you that I believe you have gone somewhere you shouldn't.
But, since I don't have the patience or the motivation to clearly see things as you do in order to fully judge, I will just reserve any judgment at all.
I sincerely wish you the very best and I will no longer trouble you about your beliefs.
freedomforall wrote:God telling Adam that he will be at the head does not mean anything other than Michael being the leader of the saints that go into battle to conquer Satan and his armies...and nothing else.
Uh, do I need to remind you that Michael-Adam's battle against the adversary was won not too long after he was cast out in the wilderness?
Adam and Eve were redeemed in their lifetime as is taught in the Pearl of Great Price.
So, Adam had already won that fight by the time of Adam-ondi-Ahman, 3 years prior to his passing away.
That's how Adam is able to perform all of the temple work during the Millennium before the adversary is loosed again.
freedomforall wrote:I told you how the cycles work and yet all I get back is more things to reject. I'm not so weak and frail as to accept this stuff which has no real basis. I assume you only want to debate and argue rather than take scripture for what it is and not what some people claim them to be. This is just plain foolishness.
This isn't a debate to me. It is an excellent way for each of us to deepen our understandings.
I do get wary of all of the personal wrangling you seem to want to inject in, but I am simply here to frankly share and to accept anyone's challenges if they feel inclined to offer such.
freedomforall wrote:Are you going to become Michael of some future world?
I already am a member of Michael's body of flesh and bone.
We are in the latter-days when Michael stands up and faces a time of trouble.
This is the body of the Melchizedek Priesthood established through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith Jr.
We have already been through the Garden of Eden in Jackson County Missouri and transgressed and were driven out.
We are currently in the lone and dreary wilderness of the Great Basin and under the buffetings of the adversary.
If I am true and faithful in all things that I have covenanted with the Father to build up His Celestial Kingdom...
I will remain a member of Michael-Adam's body of flesh and bone when Zion is redeemed and attain exaltation in that capacity.
This doesn't mean that I am Michael in and of myself, but it means that I have played my part as a member of His body.
And, for me, I consider this a great honor to be a part of this noble effort.
It gives great purpose to all of the mundane things we are asked to do.
freedomforall wrote:You can if you want, but according to scripture and church teachings each male and female that keep the temple covenants and so forth will have their own dominion, principality and worlds, and they will people them as well.
That is exactly what my wife and I are doing right now by having our posterity sealed to us in the temple.
I don't need a planet of my own in order to accomplish these things.
I just need to have an inheritance with the Father and His Kingdom.
Everything promised in the temple can be fulfilled here and now by those who are faithful.
If your version of the plan of salvation requires you to acquire a habitable planet of your own, you should be feeling pretty frustrated right now.
freedomforall wrote:Sorry, it has taken years to learn what I know through prayer, study and pondering, nor did I accept it simply because "the other guy said to" so I'm not interested in changing it now. You see, I do accept orthodox Mormon teachings of the 21st century. My salvation is based on what I have learned from the writings in the Book of Mormon.
A Christian would use the exact same basis to justify rejecting the Book of Mormon.
Is all I am doing is inviting you to see more of what is available, not take away truths you currently hold.
freedomforall wrote:None of this Adam-God stuff effects our salvation as long as we keep the commandments, covenants and endure to the end as promised. This other stuff is needless.
For just salvation I agree, but in order to be proven true and faithful in all things and to become exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, you must truly know the Father and the Son here and now in the flesh.
freedomforall wrote:I suppose if Brian is okay with this doctrine being promoted, then who am I to say otherwise? I've said my piece and provided scripture after scripture in such a way as to prove my points. Other people here can chose for themselves. Some here have been riveted by it already. So be it. I may as well be talking to a mud covered, brick wall.
Is all you have proven is that you disbelieve the various false interpretations that are out there surrounding the Adam-God teachings of Brigham Young.
But, you have had my agreement upon this particular point all along. I agree there are many false interpretations out there to beware of.

The reason we are going around in circles is because you decline to open your mind to the possibility that there is a way in which these teachings can be understood differently and in such a way that there are no points of disagreement with the standard works. You like the level of depth you are currently at and you have no desire to involve yourself in my exploration of this lost paradigm.

In short, I have invited you to have a look at the scriptures in a new light by means of unsealing a new way of reading them.
You have flat out rejected my invitation and done everything possible to malign me personally to attempt to dissuade others.
To avoid further contention I put your name on my ignore list and Bump this thread! It's only fair and right. You Jwharton do what yanks your chain so darn much. I'm tired of hearing your lame excuses and false comebacks to suit your ego. I don't need to prove anything so I bow out.


For the record, I know this contention between I and Jwharton may be troublesome to many here. I take responsibility for attempting to bring to light the doctrine meant for us to learn and internalize, a doctrine not shared by the one I address in these posts of late by his own admission herein. This is Brian's forum and I try to present the gospel as his rules dictate. I'm sorry for any disgust or dismay I may have caused. But, I'll be candid here as well. I am ashamed of the people here who refuse to stand up and defend the gospel of Jesus Christ, the plan of salvation and the Godhead as we ought to have learned and come to know. I stand as witness to the backsliding of so many saints on this forum who will not open their mouth. However, I can rest assure that God is troubled too about this as well. D&C 76 describes those people who will not open their mouths for Jesus Christ and how he feels about it.
I've tried to do my best all along. The forum is not like it was many years ago so that's the way it is I suppose. I thank those who went out of their way to dialog with me and have some fun now and again. As it is written...we can have lots and we can have fun, but, we cannot have lots of fun. :D

I want to thank Brian, too, for putting up with me. I've had a few infractions as well.

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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

freedomforall wrote:All I've seen presented is a fictitious moon rock painted with gold.
I appreciate your efforts anyway. Belittling feedback is better than none.

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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

It has been proven that scripture cannot be interpreted by any individual and passed on as truth without the confirmation from the Holy Ghost. There is no two or three or four different ways to interpret scripture. This is like telling God that he is wrong and needs to change a meaning to suit the reader.

Mormon 9:8 11,12
8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
12 Behold, he created Adam (first Adam), and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ (second Adam), even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Romans 5:14) was made a quickening spirit.

Rom. 5:14
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who (Adam) is the figure (type, pattern) of him (Christ) that was to come.

Adam transgressed which brought to man mortality (living souls) and sin. Christ (second Adam) brought into the world perfection, no sin and the resurrection and became a quickening Spirit. Adam was formed from the dust of the earth and the Savior was conceived by the power of God within the Virgin Mary. Neither one coming into the world as we are accustomed to, therefore...a type or pattern shared by both.

So says the scriptures anyway.

jwharton
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

freedomforall wrote:It has been proven that scripture cannot be interpreted by any individual and passed on as truth without the confirmation from the Holy Ghost. There is no two or three or four different ways to interpret scripture. This is like telling God that he is wrong and needs to change a meaning to suit the reader.
What the Holy Ghost reveals to me as I read the scriptures may not be appropriate for someone else depending upon where they are at in their capacity to digest things. This is why I don't try and push my point of view or level of depth onto someone else. This is why I simply share what I do trusting that the Holy Ghost will guide those not ready for what I am saying away while it may draw others who are ready to have the same vision and gain nourishment from it. The key is to trust the Holy Spirit to guide everyone based upon what they are ready to consider.

While one person can have a "digestive system" capable of sitting down to a plate of "meat", there are others whose "digestive system" is still too immature for meat and who are not yet weaned from the milk of their mother's breast. That is what I was talking about earlier when I said there are different levels or depths of meaning that can be derived from holy writ.

You don't take your Sunbeam class to study Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew roots looking for the more subtle and precise meanings that can be derived from such. But, for those who are at a level of depth where such things can be investigated the Holy Ghost is right there helping those doing such to find the nourishment and clarification that awaits. The level of depth that truth can be discerned from holy writ is profound and I am confident I will spend the rest of my life searching for new and different ways to unlock whatever truths can be found because there will always be more available.
freedomforall wrote:Mormon 9:8 11,12
8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
12 Behold, he created Adam (first Adam), and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ (second Adam), even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Romans 5:14) was made a quickening spirit.

Rom. 5:14
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who (Adam) is the figure (type, pattern) of him (Christ) that was to come.

Adam transgressed which brought to man mortality (living souls) and sin. Christ (second Adam) brought into the world perfection, no sin and the resurrection and became a quickening Spirit. Adam was formed from the dust of the earth and the Savior was conceived by the power of God within the Virgin Mary. Neither one coming into the world as we are accustomed to, therefore...a type or pattern shared by both.

So says the scriptures anyway.
So says the standard orthodox milk level of interpretation of the scriptures you are applying.
There is greater depth and greater clarity that is available to you as well.
Which depth shows the advent of the Son of Man happening right now.
He is here in the flesh and He did give His life and He has taken it up again.
And, in doing so, He is bringing to pass the redemption of Adam.
He is playing a crucial role in bringing to pass Zion's redemption.
The tares currently mock, scorn and ridicule Him and have cast Him out.
But, in due time, these wicked ones who fight against the Father's Plan will be cast down.

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Sarah
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Sarah »

freedomforall wrote:
jwharton wrote:
freedomforall wrote:I can't keep going round and round over this. You believe what you want. The church says this doctrine is false, I say it is false...scriptures do not corroborate it...so it must be false.
A more appropriate response given the facts at hand would be along these lines....
I'm sorry I have been assuming things about your beliefs.
I realize now that what you believe isn't what I thought.
However, you have gone somewhere with your beliefs that I choose not to go.
I feel to caution you that I believe you have gone somewhere you shouldn't.
But, since I don't have the patience or the motivation to clearly see things as you do in order to fully judge, I will just reserve any judgment at all.
I sincerely wish you the very best and I will no longer trouble you about your beliefs.
freedomforall wrote:God telling Adam that he will be at the head does not mean anything other than Michael being the leader of the saints that go into battle to conquer Satan and his armies...and nothing else.
Uh, do I need to remind you that Michael-Adam's battle against the adversary was won not too long after he was cast out in the wilderness?
Adam and Eve were redeemed in their lifetime as is taught in the Pearl of Great Price.
So, Adam had already won that fight by the time of Adam-ondi-Ahman, 3 years prior to his passing away.
That's how Adam is able to perform all of the temple work during the Millennium before the adversary is loosed again.
freedomforall wrote:I told you how the cycles work and yet all I get back is more things to reject. I'm not so weak and frail as to accept this stuff which has no real basis. I assume you only want to debate and argue rather than take scripture for what it is and not what some people claim them to be. This is just plain foolishness.
This isn't a debate to me. It is an excellent way for each of us to deepen our understandings.
I do get wary of all of the personal wrangling you seem to want to inject in, but I am simply here to frankly share and to accept anyone's challenges if they feel inclined to offer such.
freedomforall wrote:Are you going to become Michael of some future world?
I already am a member of Michael's body of flesh and bone.
We are in the latter-days when Michael stands up and faces a time of trouble.
This is the body of the Melchizedek Priesthood established through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith Jr.
We have already been through the Garden of Eden in Jackson County Missouri and transgressed and were driven out.
We are currently in the lone and dreary wilderness of the Great Basin and under the buffetings of the adversary.
If I am true and faithful in all things that I have covenanted with the Father to build up His Celestial Kingdom...
I will remain a member of Michael-Adam's body of flesh and bone when Zion is redeemed and attain exaltation in that capacity.
This doesn't mean that I am Michael in and of myself, but it means that I have played my part as a member of His body.
And, for me, I consider this a great honor to be a part of this noble effort.
It gives great purpose to all of the mundane things we are asked to do.
freedomforall wrote:You can if you want, but according to scripture and church teachings each male and female that keep the temple covenants and so forth will have their own dominion, principality and worlds, and they will people them as well.
That is exactly what my wife and I are doing right now by having our posterity sealed to us in the temple.
I don't need a planet of my own in order to accomplish these things.
I just need to have an inheritance with the Father and His Kingdom.
Everything promised in the temple can be fulfilled here and now by those who are faithful.
If your version of the plan of salvation requires you to acquire a habitable planet of your own, you should be feeling pretty frustrated right now.
freedomforall wrote:Sorry, it has taken years to learn what I know through prayer, study and pondering, nor did I accept it simply because "the other guy said to" so I'm not interested in changing it now. You see, I do accept orthodox Mormon teachings of the 21st century. My salvation is based on what I have learned from the writings in the Book of Mormon.
A Christian would use the exact same basis to justify rejecting the Book of Mormon.
Is all I am doing is inviting you to see more of what is available, not take away truths you currently hold.
freedomforall wrote:None of this Adam-God stuff effects our salvation as long as we keep the commandments, covenants and endure to the end as promised. This other stuff is needless.
For just salvation I agree, but in order to be proven true and faithful in all things and to become exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, you must truly know the Father and the Son here and now in the flesh.
freedomforall wrote:I suppose if Brian is okay with this doctrine being promoted, then who am I to say otherwise? I've said my piece and provided scripture after scripture in such a way as to prove my points. Other people here can chose for themselves. Some here have been riveted by it already. So be it. I may as well be talking to a mud covered, brick wall.
Is all you have proven is that you disbelieve the various false interpretations that are out there surrounding the Adam-God teachings of Brigham Young.
But, you have had my agreement upon this particular point all along. I agree there are many false interpretations out there to beware of.

The reason we are going around in circles is because you decline to open your mind to the possibility that there is a way in which these teachings can be understood differently and in such a way that there are no points of disagreement with the standard works. You like the level of depth you are currently at and you have no desire to involve yourself in my exploration of this lost paradigm.

In short, I have invited you to have a look at the scriptures in a new light by means of unsealing a new way of reading them.
You have flat out rejected my invitation and done everything possible to malign me personally to attempt to dissuade others.
To avoid further contention I put your name on my ignore list and Bump this thread! It's only fair and right. You Jwharton do what yanks your chain so darn much. I'm tired of hearing your lame excuses and false comebacks to suit your ego. I don't need to prove anything so I bow out.


For the record, I know this contention between I and Jwharton may be troublesome to many here. I take responsibility for attempting to bring to light the doctrine meant for us to learn and internalize, a doctrine not shared by the one I address in these posts of late by his own admission herein. This is Brian's forum and I try to present the gospel as his rules dictate. I'm sorry for any disgust or dismay I may have caused. But, I'll be candid here as well. I am ashamed of the people here who refuse to stand up and defend the gospel of Jesus Christ, the plan of salvation and the Godhead as we ought to have learned and come to know. I stand as witness to the backsliding of so many saints on this forum who will not open their mouth. However, I can rest assure that God is troubled too about this as well. D&C 76 describes those people who will not open their mouths for Jesus Christ and how he feels about it.
I've tried to do my best all along. The forum is not like it was many years ago so that's the way it is I suppose. I thank those who went out of their way to dialog with me and have some fun now and again. As it is written...we can have lots and we can have fun, but, we cannot have lots of fun. :D

I want to thank Brian, too, for putting up with me. I've had a few infractions as well.
It seems to me that jwharton has been trying to explain his views about doctrine in ways that explain everything being symbolic with something else, that perhaps we've never thought of before. If he is wrong in his interpretation of things I certainly do not want to defend that, but I see no need to vehemently denounce his beliefs unless he begins preaching that we DO something that is against God's laws. This is a debate about the nature of God and Adam. At least for me, defining behavior, behavior within the bounds the Lord has set, and behaving for the right reasons - that is what is important to me. It bothers me when I see posters preaching truth and half-truths in order to justify behavior such as leaving the Church, breaking a commandment, not following the counsel from our Apostles etc. - that makes me want to expose someone. There are some things that jwharton says that I think could change the way I look at things, but I still have unanswered questions about how his interpretations affect all of us in the long run.

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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Sarah »

For example, here is a question for you jwharton. I've always imagined that those who are still alive at Christ's coming will be the only ones to continue to have mortal children. These will be telestial parents who have been transformed into terrestrial bodies, and they will continue to provide bodies for spirits. Is this what you believe? And where do those spirits come from? What will those who have resurrected celestial bodies be doing? Will they have children during the millennium?

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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Rachael »

Maybe this Adam-God-Jesus-Michael issue is sorted out in the sealed portion of the plates.

Isaiah is hard to understand, but he says quite plainly in chp. 45, there are no other gods.

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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Rachael »

Nephi quotes Isaiah. Jesus says those words are "great" in 3Nephi 23:1

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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

Rachael wrote:Maybe this Adam-God-Jesus-Michael issue is sorted out in the sealed portion of the plates.
That is exactly what I am saying.
The "sealed portion" is interpreting holy writ by deciphering the seals found in the plates accompanying the Book of Mormon plates.
I believe those plates that contain the seals mentioned are in fact the brass plates.
Rachael wrote:Isaiah is hard to understand, but he says quite plainly in chp. 45, there are no other gods.
Another aspect of exploring the paradigm I have been advocating is Isiah's words become plain and clear.
Isaiah is prophesying of both the ending and the beginning when Michael, Jehovah and Eloheim are present.
When you come to understand Isaiah's prophesies of the latter days being a template overlay for the Adam and Eve narrative, then it all locks in.
The same is true for the other Prophets who are prophesying of the end times, such as Daniel, who explicitly says it is when Michael stands up, etc.
The same also goes for the book of Revelation. It too is yet another template overlay for the new Adam and Eve narrative of the new Creation.

Isaiah also says in chapter 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel,
and his redeemer the LORD of hosts;
I am the first, and I am the last;
and beside me there is no God.

The obvious implication of these phrases is there are two beings.

1) LORD the King of Israel, who needs to be redeemed
2) LORD of hosts, who redeems the King of Israel

Then, after they are introduced in tandem, They then speak as a union of the two of Them.

Thus saith Michael who came as Adam and was given dominion over all things but who fell and needed to be redeemed....
Thus saith Jehovah who came and ministered to Adam and was instrumental in bringing Adam to redemption...
(They are now speaking as one body of flesh and bone united as one being.)
I am Eloheim and I am the first and I am the last and beside me there is no God.

Michael and Jehovah in union are in their totality the new Eloheim of the new Creation.
The prophesies of Isaiah tell us how the Alpha/Omega births the new cycle of Creation.

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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

Here, is something I find quite interesting. We have the Holy Ghost telling Adam that He is the Only Begotten of the Father. How is it that the wording doesn't say "I know the Only Begotten and bear record of Him"?

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

Here we have Adam being told that he can be redeemed from his fallen state do to transgression, which is sin, otherwise, how could he have fallen. It was just one sin that got him kicked out of the garden, causing him to become a living soul now having blood. Then in verse 10 we learn that Adam was reborn in spirit and then began to prophesy.

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was (a)filled (a)(spiritually reborn), and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

So we see that Adam, as all mankind can do, was forgiven of his transgression and spiritually reborn allowing him to walk in pure righteousness. Being human, he would have erred now and again, then repented and tried to do better...another pattern for mankind to follow.

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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

Sarah wrote:I've always imagined that those who are still alive at Christ's coming will be the only ones to continue to have mortal children.
By reading things in the new paradigm it encourages me to also look at things here differently.
For example, what is the difference between a child born in the covenant and a child born outside the covenant?
Also, is there a certain quality of soul that is being held back until Zion is redeemed because they are worthy to be held back until we do our job?
Put another way, I become inclined to look for significant distinctions in terms we are already familiar with rather than to look for things that defy the natural physical laws of nature.

It isn't my intent to declare that there won't be things happening that defy the natural laws because I do believe in miracles, but at the same time, I also want to make sure that I am not overlooking the obvious distinctions we are already familiar with here and now as well as project things in a way that does make sense within the constraints of our physical natural laws.
Sarah wrote:These will be telestial parents who have been transformed into terrestrial bodies, and they will continue to provide bodies for spirits. Is this what you believe?
I am fully prepared for things to happen in such a way that the non-discerning person will be clueless that the things you are talking about are actually happening. In other words, there will be spirits who are of differing qualities of intelligence who will begin to be born through those who qualify themselves to become the parents of these choice Millennial spirits. To an outside observer they won't really see any difference, but there will be a difference. I believe there are many choice spirits who are being held back waiting for us to actually get the Father's Kingdom established and free of the Luciferian usurpation.
Sarah wrote:And where do those spirits come from? What will those who have resurrected celestial bodies be doing? Will they have children during the millennium?
To an outside observer it will just appear that life is going on as usual. People will continue to have children and so on. Although, there will be some very significant differences in how families are put together. The basis of a marriage won't be attraction and romance as things will transition into the mode where everything will be governed by revelation. Marriages that exist in the Father's Kingdom will be based upon the fact that those marriages were already sealed beforehand.

This is why Priesthood confirmation will be necessary in order to validate that a couple is indeed facilitating an eternal marriage at the Celestial Glory to have its continuance. This is the basis upon which many LDS offshoots/ cults ascribe so much power and control over marriages to their priesthood leadership. When Jesus taught that people are not given in marriage in heaven or in the resurrection, this is what it means. The people that will live in Zion in its redeemed state will be people who are resurrected (spiritually) and receiving their eternal blessings.

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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

Sarah wrote:It seems to me that jwharton has been trying to explain his views about doctrine in ways that explain everything being symbolic with something else, that perhaps we've never thought of before. If he is wrong in his interpretation of things I certainly do not want to defend that, but I see no need to vehemently denounce his beliefs unless he begins preaching that we DO something that is against God's laws. This is a debate about the nature of God and Adam. At least for me, defining behavior, behavior within the bounds the Lord has set, and behaving for the right reasons - that is what is important to me. It bothers me when I see posters preaching truth and half-truths in order to justify behavior such as leaving the Church, breaking a commandment, not following the counsel from our Apostles etc. - that makes me want to expose someone. There are some things that jwharton says that I think could change the way I look at things, but I still have unanswered questions about how his interpretations affect all of us in the long run.
When it comes to God, He is not symbolic, God is God, Jehovah, his First born Son is not symbolic. The Holy Spirit is not symbolic. Jehovah, the Spirit inside Jesus, making them Father and Son...is not symbolic.
Michael/Adam was like God and is symbolic in that light, however, it is who Michael is/was that is quite important to us. His role and purpose must be understood accurately. Symbols have their place but not where the Godhead is concerned.

From Lectures on Faith, Lecture 4 we read:
1 Having shown in the third lecture, that correct ideas of the character of God are necessary in order to the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation, and that without correct ideas of his character, the minds of men could not have sufficient power with God to the exercise of faith necessary to the enjoyment of eternal life, and that correct ideas of his character lay a foundation as far as his character is concerned, for the exercise of faith, so as to enjoy the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Jesus Christ, even that of eternal glory; we shall now proceed to show the connection there is between correct ideas of the attributes of God, and the exercise of faith in him unto eternal life.

2 Let us here observe, that the real design which the God of heaven had in view in making the human family acquainted with his attributes, was, that they through the ideas of the existence of his attributes, might be enabled to exercise faith in him, and through the exercise of faith in him, might obtain eternal life. For without the idea of the existence of the attributes which belong to God, the minds of men could not have power to exercise faith.

13 It is also necessary, in order to the exercise of faith in God, unto life and salvation, that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute justice, in him. For without the idea of the existence of the attribute Justice, in the Deity, men could not have confidence sufficiently to place themselves under his guidance and direction; for they would be filled with fear and doubt, lest the Judge of all the earth would not do right; and thus fear, or doubt, existing in the mind, would preclude the possibility of the exercise of faith in him for life and salvation. But, when the idea of the existence of the attribute justice, in the Deity, is fairly planted in the mind, it leaves.

From Lecture 6
7 Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice & offering, & that he has not nor will not seek his face.

So now we come to a very important question...Just who is the God we are to put our trust and faith in sufficient for salvation, Michael/Adam or Jehovah? I choose Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ in the flesh.

The Most High God is mentioned in Scripture, but no name is given. We call Him Elohim.

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Sarah
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Sarah »

jwharton wrote:
Sarah wrote:I've always imagined that those who are still alive at Christ's coming will be the only ones to continue to have mortal children.
By reading things in the new paradigm it encourages me to also look at things here differently.
For example, what is the difference between a child born in the covenant and a child born outside the covenant?
Also, is there a certain quality of soul that is being held back until Zion is redeemed because they are worthy to be held back until we do our job?
Put another way, I become inclined to look for significant distinctions in terms we are already familiar with rather than to look for things that defy the natural physical laws of nature.

It isn't my intent to declare that there won't be things happening that defy the natural laws because I do believe in miracles, but at the same time, I also want to make sure that I am not overlooking the obvious distinctions we are already familiar with here and now as well as project things in a way that does make sense within the constraints of our physical natural laws.
Sarah wrote:These will be telestial parents who have been transformed into terrestrial bodies, and they will continue to provide bodies for spirits. Is this what you believe?
I am fully prepared for things to happen in such a way that the non-discerning person will be clueless that the things you are talking about are actually happening. In other words, there will be spirits who are of differing qualities of intelligence who will begin to be born through those who qualify themselves to become the parents of these choice Millennial spirits. To an outside observer they won't really see any difference, but there will be a difference. I believe there are many choice spirits who are being held back waiting for us to actually get the Father's Kingdom established and free of the Luciferian usurpation.
Sarah wrote:And where do those spirits come from? What will those who have resurrected celestial bodies be doing? Will they have children during the millennium?
To an outside observer it will just appear that life is going on as usual. People will continue to have children and so on. Although, there will be some very significant differences in how families are put together. The basis of a marriage won't be attraction and romance as things will transition into the mode where everything will be governed by revelation. Marriages that exist in the Father's Kingdom will be based upon the fact that those marriages were already sealed beforehand.

This is why Priesthood confirmation will be necessary in order to validate that a couple is indeed facilitating an eternal marriage at the Celestial Glory to have its continuance. This is the basis upon which many LDS offshoots/ cults ascribe so much power and control over marriages to their priesthood leadership. When Jesus taught that people are not given in marriage in heaven or in the resurrection, this is what it means. The people that will live in Zion in its redeemed state will be people who are resurrected (spiritually) and receiving their eternal blessings.
In other words, there will be spirits who are of differing qualities of intelligence who will begin to be born through those who qualify themselves to become the parents of these choice Millennial spirits. To an outside observer they won't really see any difference, but there will be a difference. I believe there are many choice spirits who are being held back waiting for us to actually get the Father's Kingdom established and free of the Luciferian usurpation.
So where are these spirits, and how did they come into existence? You can't seem to answer this question for me, in order that I might see where the spirit-world fits into your paradigm. Does a single resurrected body - one distinct being's body - become mortal again? What about Kolob and everything explained about the heavens in the PofGP? I get the impression that you feel that everything regarding our eternal destiny centers upon this earth, and we continue to cycle in and out of lives on this earth. But where do spirits reside and resurrected beings? I can't yet determine if you feel resurrection only pertains flesh and bone covenant bodies on a spiritual level, or we indeed each receive our own perfect body.

For those worthy to inherit Celestial glory, what happens to them in the next cycle of creation? Do they have a veil of forgetfulness again? Do we take turns being the person of Adam and Eve, and Jesus or Mary for example? Are these like callings? Does Zion in the millennium represent the innocent Adam and Eve, that know no sin, and then when Satan is loosed at the end, that is when he tempts Adam and Eve again and they are cast into the wilderness all over again?
Marriages that exist in the Father's Kingdom will be based upon the fact that those marriages were already sealed beforehand.


Where is the Father's Kingdom that these marriages exist? Let's say I get sealed to the man/men I have been sealed to previously once things are set in order in the next seal. What is your understanding of how marriage relationships perpetuate themselves from one cycle to the next?

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Sarah
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Sarah »

freedomforall wrote:
Sarah wrote:It seems to me that jwharton has been trying to explain his views about doctrine in ways that explain everything being symbolic with something else, that perhaps we've never thought of before. If he is wrong in his interpretation of things I certainly do not want to defend that, but I see no need to vehemently denounce his beliefs unless he begins preaching that we DO something that is against God's laws. This is a debate about the nature of God and Adam. At least for me, defining behavior, behavior within the bounds the Lord has set, and behaving for the right reasons - that is what is important to me. It bothers me when I see posters preaching truth and half-truths in order to justify behavior such as leaving the Church, breaking a commandment, not following the counsel from our Apostles etc. - that makes me want to expose someone. There are some things that jwharton says that I think could change the way I look at things, but I still have unanswered questions about how his interpretations affect all of us in the long run.
When it comes to God, He is not symbolic, God is God, Jehovah, his First born Son is not symbolic. The Holy Spirit is not symbolic. Jehovah, the Spirit inside Jesus, making them Father and Son...is not symbolic.
Michael/Adam was like God and is symbolic in that light, however, it is who Michael is/was that is quite important to us. His role and purpose must be understood accurately. Symbols have their place but not where the Godhead is concerned.

From Lectures on Faith, Lecture 4 we read:
1 Having shown in the third lecture, that correct ideas of the character of God are necessary in order to the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation, and that without correct ideas of his character, the minds of men could not have sufficient power with God to the exercise of faith necessary to the enjoyment of eternal life, and that correct ideas of his character lay a foundation as far as his character is concerned, for the exercise of faith, so as to enjoy the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Jesus Christ, even that of eternal glory; we shall now proceed to show the connection there is between correct ideas of the attributes of God, and the exercise of faith in him unto eternal life.

2 Let us here observe, that the real design which the God of heaven had in view in making the human family acquainted with his attributes, was, that they through the ideas of the existence of his attributes, might be enabled to exercise faith in him, and through the exercise of faith in him, might obtain eternal life. For without the idea of the existence of the attributes which belong to God, the minds of men could not have power to exercise faith.

13 It is also necessary, in order to the exercise of faith in God, unto life and salvation, that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute justice, in him. For without the idea of the existence of the attribute Justice, in the Deity, men could not have confidence sufficiently to place themselves under his guidance and direction; for they would be filled with fear and doubt, lest the Judge of all the earth would not do right; and thus fear, or doubt, existing in the mind, would preclude the possibility of the exercise of faith in him for life and salvation. But, when the idea of the existence of the attribute justice, in the Deity, is fairly planted in the mind, it leaves.

From Lecture 6
7 Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice & offering, & that he has not nor will not seek his face.

So now we come to a very important question...Just who is the God we are to put our trust and faith in sufficient for salvation, Michael/Adam or Jehovah? I choose Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ in the flesh.

The Most High God is mentioned in Scripture, but no name is given. We call Him Elohim.
And that is where I seem to have a problem with what jwharton is saying. I feel like he is erring on the side of symbolism, and perhaps not seeing the physical or literal side to things too, when the reality is that it might be somewhere in the middle. That's why I'm not going to just disregard everything he believes in yet. I'd like to try to understand what truth there might be that some of these things that we've perhaps always just assumed were very literal, might also be symbolic of other things.

jwharton
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

Sarah wrote:And that is where I seem to have a problem with what jwharton is saying. I feel like he is erring on the side of symbolism, and perhaps not seeing the physical or literal side to things too, when the reality is that it might be somewhere in the middle. That's why I'm not going to just disregard everything he believes in yet. I'd like to try to understand what truth there might be that some of these things that we've perhaps always just assumed were very literal, might also be symbolic of other things.
It is a given that the language of symbols is what we are grappling with in both holy writ and in the temple ceremony.
What causes problems to arise is when people try and turn the symbols directly into the actual reality.
If that was the case then we wouldn't be given the understanding that we are viewing a symbolic representation.
Rather, if what we are being shown is the actual reality then we wouldn't be told that this is a representation of something else.

So, instead of taking the symbols and trying to force them to work literally,
I am seeking to properly decipher them to reach their practical and tangible meaning.
In doing this a person begins to acquire interpretive keys to unlock the hidden reality depicted.

In other words, just because planetoids, animals, plants, birds, Adam, Eve, etc. are being depicted during the creation narrative, it doesn't mean that this is the whole of the story at face value. All of these depictions are the symbolic representation that we should not directly and literally superimpose on our current reality frame absent the necessary keys to translate it properly.

In short, I say that translation using keys is required while others just try to make the narrative work literally with no translation.

The whole concept of the "sealed portion" implies that there is a hidden message about a tangible reality available if you have the keys to decipher it.

In other words, there is an actual tangible and practical meaning behind the planetoids, animals, plants, birds, Adam, Eve, etc. that is being depicted. All of those things depicted are symbols of something else and the ability to come to "see" what that something else actually is pertains to whether someone has opened up the sealed portion of the scriptures or if they are still trying to force this narrative of mere symbols onto the physical reality of things.

What I am exploring is an entirely different paradigm.

The standard orthodox paradigm is that Adam is not a symbol that represents something but rather that Adam was a human being just like everyone else. He is depicted as a human being in every respect, just like we are human beings. This is ignoring that Adam is a symbol of something and just taking Adam as a regular guy like everyone else.

The paradigm I am inviting people to look into gives an entirely new perspective on the character and nature of Adam. Instead of trying to imply that some regular guy like me lived on the earth 6,000 years ago and that he lived for 930 years as a regular guy like me, and so on. But, rather, that Adam was a being of flesh and bone in that the literal manner in which Adam tangibly existed in our reality is as a unified covenant body composed of individuals as its members. In other words, Adam represents the Priesthood Body, of which individuals can become members of.

So, if someone is going to look for the actual archaeological evidence of the tangible manner in which Adam lived 6,000 years ago they would actually look for a long-standing society of king-priests who had temples and who went to great lengths to gather up all of the names of the individuals and perform temple ordinances to give them their new names and who ruled and reigned over a kingdom that championed individual unalienable rights and who likely also enjoyed a fairly high level of technological advancement and so on. It would very likely have been a golden age society under the just governance of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

And, by looking at it in the manner that I do, this opens up the means by which we can see that right here and now we as individuals can become members of the flesh and bone bodies of Adam and Eve as we are again on the cusp of bringing in a new golden age society that has as its king-priests holders of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood. And, we can expect that the society we are building up and establishing will live for the better part of the Millennium. And, we are again gathering up all of the genealogical data and performing all of the temple work to organize the new Creation that we are laying the foundation for here and now.

I am saying that the symbols in the creation account can and should be deciphered directly into things that are real and tangible right now.
There isn't a need to acquire your own fresh brand new habitable planet somewhere out in the cosmos to fully realize the promised blessings.

I am simply intent upon correctly deciphering symbols into their actual meaning instead of getting hung up trying to make the symbol itself the reality.

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