Sealed portion of the plates

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freedomforall
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

jwharton wrote:
freedomforall wrote:I can't keep going round and round over this. You believe what you want. The church says this doctrine is false, I say it is false...scriptures do not corroborate it...so it must be false.
A more appropriate response given the facts at hand would be along these lines....
I'm sorry I have been assuming things about your beliefs.
I realize now that what you believe isn't what I thought.
However, you have gone somewhere with your beliefs that I choose not to go.
I feel to caution you that I believe you have gone somewhere you shouldn't.
But, since I don't have the patience or the motivation to clearly see things as you do in order to fully judge, I will just reserve any judgment at all.
I sincerely wish you the very best and I will no longer trouble you about your beliefs.
freedomforall wrote:God telling Adam that he will be at the head does not mean anything other than Michael being the leader of the saints that go into battle to conquer Satan and his armies...and nothing else.
Uh, do I need to remind you that Michael-Adam's battle against the adversary was won not too long after he was cast out in the wilderness?
Adam and Eve were redeemed in their lifetime as is taught in the Pearl of Great Price.
So, Adam had already won that fight by the time of Adam-ondi-Ahman, 3 years prior to his passing away.
That's how Adam is able to perform all of the temple work during the Millennium before the adversary is loosed again.
freedomforall wrote:I told you how the cycles work and yet all I get back is more things to reject. I'm not so weak and frail as to accept this stuff which has no real basis. I assume you only want to debate and argue rather than take scripture for what it is and not what some people claim them to be. This is just plain foolishness.
This isn't a debate to me. It is an excellent way for each of us to deepen our understandings.
I do get wary of all of the personal wrangling you seem to want to inject in, but I am simply here to frankly share and to accept anyone's challenges if they feel inclined to offer such.
freedomforall wrote:Are you going to become Michael of some future world?
I already am a member of Michael's body of flesh and bone.
We are in the latter-days when Michael stands up and faces a time of trouble.
This is the body of the Melchizedek Priesthood established through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith Jr.
We have already been through the Garden of Eden in Jackson County Missouri and transgressed and were driven out.
We are currently in the lone and dreary wilderness of the Great Basin and under the buffetings of the adversary.
If I am true and faithful in all things that I have covenanted with the Father to build up His Celestial Kingdom...
I will remain a member of Michael-Adam's body of flesh and bone when Zion is redeemed and attain exaltation in that capacity.
This doesn't mean that I am Michael in and of myself, but it means that I have played my part as a member of His body.
And, for me, I consider this a great honor to be a part of this noble effort.
It gives great purpose to all of the mundane things we are asked to do.
freedomforall wrote:You can if you want, but according to scripture and church teachings each male and female that keep the temple covenants and so forth will have their own dominion, principality and worlds, and they will people them as well.
That is exactly what my wife and I are doing right now by having our posterity sealed to us in the temple.
I don't need a planet of my own in order to accomplish these things.
I just need to have an inheritance with the Father and His Kingdom.
Everything promised in the temple can be fulfilled here and now by those who are faithful.
If your version of the plan of salvation requires you to acquire a habitable planet of your own, you should be feeling pretty frustrated right now.
freedomforall wrote:Sorry, it has taken years to learn what I know through prayer, study and pondering, nor did I accept it simply because "the other guy said to" so I'm not interested in changing it now. You see, I do accept orthodox Mormon teachings of the 21st century. My salvation is based on what I have learned from the writings in the Book of Mormon.
A Christian would use the exact same basis to justify rejecting the Book of Mormon.
Is all I am doing is inviting you to see more of what is available, not take away truths you currently hold.
freedomforall wrote:None of this Adam-God stuff effects our salvation as long as we keep the commandments, covenants and endure to the end as promised. This other stuff is needless.
For just salvation I agree, but in order to be proven true and faithful in all things and to become exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, you must truly know the Father and the Son here and now in the flesh.
freedomforall wrote:I suppose if Brian is okay with this doctrine being promoted, then who am I to say otherwise? I've said my piece and provided scripture after scripture in such a way as to prove my points. Other people here can chose for themselves. Some here have been riveted by it already. So be it. I may as well be talking to a mud covered, brick wall.
Is all you have proven is that you disbelieve the various false interpretations that are out there surrounding the Adam-God teachings of Brigham Young.
But, you have had my agreement upon this particular point all along. I agree there are many false interpretations out there to beware of.

The reason we are going around in circles is because you decline to open your mind to the possibility that there is a way in which these teachings can be understood differently and in such a way that there are no points of disagreement with the standard works. You like the level of depth you are currently at and you have no desire to involve yourself in my exploration of this lost paradigm.

In short, I have invited you to have a look at the scriptures in a new light by means of unsealing a new way of reading them.
You have flat out rejected my invitation and done everything possible to malign me personally to attempt to dissuade others.
To avoid further contention I put your name on my ignore list and Bump this thread! It's only fair and right. You Jwharton do what yanks your chain so darn much. I'm tired of hearing your lame excuses and false comebacks to suit your ego. I don't need to prove anything so I bow out.


For the record, I know this contention between I and Jwharton may be troublesome to many here. I take responsibility for attempting to bring to light the doctrine meant for us to learn and internalize, a doctrine not shared by the one I address in these posts of late by his own admission herein. This is Brian's forum and I try to present the gospel as his rules dictate. I'm sorry for any disgust or dismay I may have caused. But, I'll be candid here as well. I am ashamed of the people here who refuse to stand up and defend the gospel of Jesus Christ, the plan of salvation and the Godhead as we ought to have learned and come to know. I stand as witness to the backsliding of so many saints on this forum who will not open their mouth. However, I can rest assure that God is troubled too about this as well. D&C 76 describes those people who will not open their mouths for Jesus Christ and how he feels about it.
I've tried to do my best all along. The forum is not like it was many years ago so that's the way it is I suppose. I thank those who went out of their way to dialog with me and have some fun now and again. As it is written...we can have lots and we can have fun, but, we cannot have lots of fun. :D

I want to thank Brian, too, for putting up with me. I've had a few infractions as well.

jwharton
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

freedomforall wrote:All I've seen presented is a fictitious moon rock painted with gold.
I appreciate your efforts anyway. Belittling feedback is better than none.

freedomforall
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

It has been proven that scripture cannot be interpreted by any individual and passed on as truth without the confirmation from the Holy Ghost. There is no two or three or four different ways to interpret scripture. This is like telling God that he is wrong and needs to change a meaning to suit the reader.

Mormon 9:8 11,12
8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
12 Behold, he created Adam (first Adam), and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ (second Adam), even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Romans 5:14) was made a quickening spirit.

Rom. 5:14
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who (Adam) is the figure (type, pattern) of him (Christ) that was to come.

Adam transgressed which brought to man mortality (living souls) and sin. Christ (second Adam) brought into the world perfection, no sin and the resurrection and became a quickening Spirit. Adam was formed from the dust of the earth and the Savior was conceived by the power of God within the Virgin Mary. Neither one coming into the world as we are accustomed to, therefore...a type or pattern shared by both.

So says the scriptures anyway.

jwharton
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

freedomforall wrote:It has been proven that scripture cannot be interpreted by any individual and passed on as truth without the confirmation from the Holy Ghost. There is no two or three or four different ways to interpret scripture. This is like telling God that he is wrong and needs to change a meaning to suit the reader.
What the Holy Ghost reveals to me as I read the scriptures may not be appropriate for someone else depending upon where they are at in their capacity to digest things. This is why I don't try and push my point of view or level of depth onto someone else. This is why I simply share what I do trusting that the Holy Ghost will guide those not ready for what I am saying away while it may draw others who are ready to have the same vision and gain nourishment from it. The key is to trust the Holy Spirit to guide everyone based upon what they are ready to consider.

While one person can have a "digestive system" capable of sitting down to a plate of "meat", there are others whose "digestive system" is still too immature for meat and who are not yet weaned from the milk of their mother's breast. That is what I was talking about earlier when I said there are different levels or depths of meaning that can be derived from holy writ.

You don't take your Sunbeam class to study Aramaic, Greek and Hebrew roots looking for the more subtle and precise meanings that can be derived from such. But, for those who are at a level of depth where such things can be investigated the Holy Ghost is right there helping those doing such to find the nourishment and clarification that awaits. The level of depth that truth can be discerned from holy writ is profound and I am confident I will spend the rest of my life searching for new and different ways to unlock whatever truths can be found because there will always be more available.
freedomforall wrote:Mormon 9:8 11,12
8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
11 But behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
12 Behold, he created Adam (first Adam), and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ (second Adam), even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.

1 Corinthians 15:45
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Romans 5:14) was made a quickening spirit.

Rom. 5:14
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who (Adam) is the figure (type, pattern) of him (Christ) that was to come.

Adam transgressed which brought to man mortality (living souls) and sin. Christ (second Adam) brought into the world perfection, no sin and the resurrection and became a quickening Spirit. Adam was formed from the dust of the earth and the Savior was conceived by the power of God within the Virgin Mary. Neither one coming into the world as we are accustomed to, therefore...a type or pattern shared by both.

So says the scriptures anyway.
So says the standard orthodox milk level of interpretation of the scriptures you are applying.
There is greater depth and greater clarity that is available to you as well.
Which depth shows the advent of the Son of Man happening right now.
He is here in the flesh and He did give His life and He has taken it up again.
And, in doing so, He is bringing to pass the redemption of Adam.
He is playing a crucial role in bringing to pass Zion's redemption.
The tares currently mock, scorn and ridicule Him and have cast Him out.
But, in due time, these wicked ones who fight against the Father's Plan will be cast down.

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Sarah
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Sarah »

freedomforall wrote:
jwharton wrote:
freedomforall wrote:I can't keep going round and round over this. You believe what you want. The church says this doctrine is false, I say it is false...scriptures do not corroborate it...so it must be false.
A more appropriate response given the facts at hand would be along these lines....
I'm sorry I have been assuming things about your beliefs.
I realize now that what you believe isn't what I thought.
However, you have gone somewhere with your beliefs that I choose not to go.
I feel to caution you that I believe you have gone somewhere you shouldn't.
But, since I don't have the patience or the motivation to clearly see things as you do in order to fully judge, I will just reserve any judgment at all.
I sincerely wish you the very best and I will no longer trouble you about your beliefs.
freedomforall wrote:God telling Adam that he will be at the head does not mean anything other than Michael being the leader of the saints that go into battle to conquer Satan and his armies...and nothing else.
Uh, do I need to remind you that Michael-Adam's battle against the adversary was won not too long after he was cast out in the wilderness?
Adam and Eve were redeemed in their lifetime as is taught in the Pearl of Great Price.
So, Adam had already won that fight by the time of Adam-ondi-Ahman, 3 years prior to his passing away.
That's how Adam is able to perform all of the temple work during the Millennium before the adversary is loosed again.
freedomforall wrote:I told you how the cycles work and yet all I get back is more things to reject. I'm not so weak and frail as to accept this stuff which has no real basis. I assume you only want to debate and argue rather than take scripture for what it is and not what some people claim them to be. This is just plain foolishness.
This isn't a debate to me. It is an excellent way for each of us to deepen our understandings.
I do get wary of all of the personal wrangling you seem to want to inject in, but I am simply here to frankly share and to accept anyone's challenges if they feel inclined to offer such.
freedomforall wrote:Are you going to become Michael of some future world?
I already am a member of Michael's body of flesh and bone.
We are in the latter-days when Michael stands up and faces a time of trouble.
This is the body of the Melchizedek Priesthood established through the instrumentality of Joseph Smith Jr.
We have already been through the Garden of Eden in Jackson County Missouri and transgressed and were driven out.
We are currently in the lone and dreary wilderness of the Great Basin and under the buffetings of the adversary.
If I am true and faithful in all things that I have covenanted with the Father to build up His Celestial Kingdom...
I will remain a member of Michael-Adam's body of flesh and bone when Zion is redeemed and attain exaltation in that capacity.
This doesn't mean that I am Michael in and of myself, but it means that I have played my part as a member of His body.
And, for me, I consider this a great honor to be a part of this noble effort.
It gives great purpose to all of the mundane things we are asked to do.
freedomforall wrote:You can if you want, but according to scripture and church teachings each male and female that keep the temple covenants and so forth will have their own dominion, principality and worlds, and they will people them as well.
That is exactly what my wife and I are doing right now by having our posterity sealed to us in the temple.
I don't need a planet of my own in order to accomplish these things.
I just need to have an inheritance with the Father and His Kingdom.
Everything promised in the temple can be fulfilled here and now by those who are faithful.
If your version of the plan of salvation requires you to acquire a habitable planet of your own, you should be feeling pretty frustrated right now.
freedomforall wrote:Sorry, it has taken years to learn what I know through prayer, study and pondering, nor did I accept it simply because "the other guy said to" so I'm not interested in changing it now. You see, I do accept orthodox Mormon teachings of the 21st century. My salvation is based on what I have learned from the writings in the Book of Mormon.
A Christian would use the exact same basis to justify rejecting the Book of Mormon.
Is all I am doing is inviting you to see more of what is available, not take away truths you currently hold.
freedomforall wrote:None of this Adam-God stuff effects our salvation as long as we keep the commandments, covenants and endure to the end as promised. This other stuff is needless.
For just salvation I agree, but in order to be proven true and faithful in all things and to become exalted in the Celestial Kingdom, you must truly know the Father and the Son here and now in the flesh.
freedomforall wrote:I suppose if Brian is okay with this doctrine being promoted, then who am I to say otherwise? I've said my piece and provided scripture after scripture in such a way as to prove my points. Other people here can chose for themselves. Some here have been riveted by it already. So be it. I may as well be talking to a mud covered, brick wall.
Is all you have proven is that you disbelieve the various false interpretations that are out there surrounding the Adam-God teachings of Brigham Young.
But, you have had my agreement upon this particular point all along. I agree there are many false interpretations out there to beware of.

The reason we are going around in circles is because you decline to open your mind to the possibility that there is a way in which these teachings can be understood differently and in such a way that there are no points of disagreement with the standard works. You like the level of depth you are currently at and you have no desire to involve yourself in my exploration of this lost paradigm.

In short, I have invited you to have a look at the scriptures in a new light by means of unsealing a new way of reading them.
You have flat out rejected my invitation and done everything possible to malign me personally to attempt to dissuade others.
To avoid further contention I put your name on my ignore list and Bump this thread! It's only fair and right. You Jwharton do what yanks your chain so darn much. I'm tired of hearing your lame excuses and false comebacks to suit your ego. I don't need to prove anything so I bow out.


For the record, I know this contention between I and Jwharton may be troublesome to many here. I take responsibility for attempting to bring to light the doctrine meant for us to learn and internalize, a doctrine not shared by the one I address in these posts of late by his own admission herein. This is Brian's forum and I try to present the gospel as his rules dictate. I'm sorry for any disgust or dismay I may have caused. But, I'll be candid here as well. I am ashamed of the people here who refuse to stand up and defend the gospel of Jesus Christ, the plan of salvation and the Godhead as we ought to have learned and come to know. I stand as witness to the backsliding of so many saints on this forum who will not open their mouth. However, I can rest assure that God is troubled too about this as well. D&C 76 describes those people who will not open their mouths for Jesus Christ and how he feels about it.
I've tried to do my best all along. The forum is not like it was many years ago so that's the way it is I suppose. I thank those who went out of their way to dialog with me and have some fun now and again. As it is written...we can have lots and we can have fun, but, we cannot have lots of fun. :D

I want to thank Brian, too, for putting up with me. I've had a few infractions as well.
It seems to me that jwharton has been trying to explain his views about doctrine in ways that explain everything being symbolic with something else, that perhaps we've never thought of before. If he is wrong in his interpretation of things I certainly do not want to defend that, but I see no need to vehemently denounce his beliefs unless he begins preaching that we DO something that is against God's laws. This is a debate about the nature of God and Adam. At least for me, defining behavior, behavior within the bounds the Lord has set, and behaving for the right reasons - that is what is important to me. It bothers me when I see posters preaching truth and half-truths in order to justify behavior such as leaving the Church, breaking a commandment, not following the counsel from our Apostles etc. - that makes me want to expose someone. There are some things that jwharton says that I think could change the way I look at things, but I still have unanswered questions about how his interpretations affect all of us in the long run.

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Sarah
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Sarah »

For example, here is a question for you jwharton. I've always imagined that those who are still alive at Christ's coming will be the only ones to continue to have mortal children. These will be telestial parents who have been transformed into terrestrial bodies, and they will continue to provide bodies for spirits. Is this what you believe? And where do those spirits come from? What will those who have resurrected celestial bodies be doing? Will they have children during the millennium?

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Rachael
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Rachael »

Maybe this Adam-God-Jesus-Michael issue is sorted out in the sealed portion of the plates.

Isaiah is hard to understand, but he says quite plainly in chp. 45, there are no other gods.

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Rachael
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Rachael »

Nephi quotes Isaiah. Jesus says those words are "great" in 3Nephi 23:1

jwharton
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

Rachael wrote:Maybe this Adam-God-Jesus-Michael issue is sorted out in the sealed portion of the plates.
That is exactly what I am saying.
The "sealed portion" is interpreting holy writ by deciphering the seals found in the plates accompanying the Book of Mormon plates.
I believe those plates that contain the seals mentioned are in fact the brass plates.
Rachael wrote:Isaiah is hard to understand, but he says quite plainly in chp. 45, there are no other gods.
Another aspect of exploring the paradigm I have been advocating is Isiah's words become plain and clear.
Isaiah is prophesying of both the ending and the beginning when Michael, Jehovah and Eloheim are present.
When you come to understand Isaiah's prophesies of the latter days being a template overlay for the Adam and Eve narrative, then it all locks in.
The same is true for the other Prophets who are prophesying of the end times, such as Daniel, who explicitly says it is when Michael stands up, etc.
The same also goes for the book of Revelation. It too is yet another template overlay for the new Adam and Eve narrative of the new Creation.

Isaiah also says in chapter 44:6
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel,
and his redeemer the LORD of hosts;
I am the first, and I am the last;
and beside me there is no God.

The obvious implication of these phrases is there are two beings.

1) LORD the King of Israel, who needs to be redeemed
2) LORD of hosts, who redeems the King of Israel

Then, after they are introduced in tandem, They then speak as a union of the two of Them.

Thus saith Michael who came as Adam and was given dominion over all things but who fell and needed to be redeemed....
Thus saith Jehovah who came and ministered to Adam and was instrumental in bringing Adam to redemption...
(They are now speaking as one body of flesh and bone united as one being.)
I am Eloheim and I am the first and I am the last and beside me there is no God.

Michael and Jehovah in union are in their totality the new Eloheim of the new Creation.
The prophesies of Isaiah tell us how the Alpha/Omega births the new cycle of Creation.

freedomforall
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

Here, is something I find quite interesting. We have the Holy Ghost telling Adam that He is the Only Begotten of the Father. How is it that the wording doesn't say "I know the Only Begotten and bear record of Him"?

9 And in that day the Holy Ghost fell upon Adam, which beareth record of the Father and the Son, saying: I am the Only Begotten of the Father from the beginning, henceforth and forever, that as thou hast fallen thou mayest be redeemed, and all mankind, even as many as will.

Here we have Adam being told that he can be redeemed from his fallen state do to transgression, which is sin, otherwise, how could he have fallen. It was just one sin that got him kicked out of the garden, causing him to become a living soul now having blood. Then in verse 10 we learn that Adam was reborn in spirit and then began to prophesy.

10 And in that day Adam blessed God and was (a)filled (a)(spiritually reborn), and began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying: Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God.

So we see that Adam, as all mankind can do, was forgiven of his transgression and spiritually reborn allowing him to walk in pure righteousness. Being human, he would have erred now and again, then repented and tried to do better...another pattern for mankind to follow.

jwharton
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

Sarah wrote:I've always imagined that those who are still alive at Christ's coming will be the only ones to continue to have mortal children.
By reading things in the new paradigm it encourages me to also look at things here differently.
For example, what is the difference between a child born in the covenant and a child born outside the covenant?
Also, is there a certain quality of soul that is being held back until Zion is redeemed because they are worthy to be held back until we do our job?
Put another way, I become inclined to look for significant distinctions in terms we are already familiar with rather than to look for things that defy the natural physical laws of nature.

It isn't my intent to declare that there won't be things happening that defy the natural laws because I do believe in miracles, but at the same time, I also want to make sure that I am not overlooking the obvious distinctions we are already familiar with here and now as well as project things in a way that does make sense within the constraints of our physical natural laws.
Sarah wrote:These will be telestial parents who have been transformed into terrestrial bodies, and they will continue to provide bodies for spirits. Is this what you believe?
I am fully prepared for things to happen in such a way that the non-discerning person will be clueless that the things you are talking about are actually happening. In other words, there will be spirits who are of differing qualities of intelligence who will begin to be born through those who qualify themselves to become the parents of these choice Millennial spirits. To an outside observer they won't really see any difference, but there will be a difference. I believe there are many choice spirits who are being held back waiting for us to actually get the Father's Kingdom established and free of the Luciferian usurpation.
Sarah wrote:And where do those spirits come from? What will those who have resurrected celestial bodies be doing? Will they have children during the millennium?
To an outside observer it will just appear that life is going on as usual. People will continue to have children and so on. Although, there will be some very significant differences in how families are put together. The basis of a marriage won't be attraction and romance as things will transition into the mode where everything will be governed by revelation. Marriages that exist in the Father's Kingdom will be based upon the fact that those marriages were already sealed beforehand.

This is why Priesthood confirmation will be necessary in order to validate that a couple is indeed facilitating an eternal marriage at the Celestial Glory to have its continuance. This is the basis upon which many LDS offshoots/ cults ascribe so much power and control over marriages to their priesthood leadership. When Jesus taught that people are not given in marriage in heaven or in the resurrection, this is what it means. The people that will live in Zion in its redeemed state will be people who are resurrected (spiritually) and receiving their eternal blessings.

freedomforall
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

Sarah wrote:It seems to me that jwharton has been trying to explain his views about doctrine in ways that explain everything being symbolic with something else, that perhaps we've never thought of before. If he is wrong in his interpretation of things I certainly do not want to defend that, but I see no need to vehemently denounce his beliefs unless he begins preaching that we DO something that is against God's laws. This is a debate about the nature of God and Adam. At least for me, defining behavior, behavior within the bounds the Lord has set, and behaving for the right reasons - that is what is important to me. It bothers me when I see posters preaching truth and half-truths in order to justify behavior such as leaving the Church, breaking a commandment, not following the counsel from our Apostles etc. - that makes me want to expose someone. There are some things that jwharton says that I think could change the way I look at things, but I still have unanswered questions about how his interpretations affect all of us in the long run.
When it comes to God, He is not symbolic, God is God, Jehovah, his First born Son is not symbolic. The Holy Spirit is not symbolic. Jehovah, the Spirit inside Jesus, making them Father and Son...is not symbolic.
Michael/Adam was like God and is symbolic in that light, however, it is who Michael is/was that is quite important to us. His role and purpose must be understood accurately. Symbols have their place but not where the Godhead is concerned.

From Lectures on Faith, Lecture 4 we read:
1 Having shown in the third lecture, that correct ideas of the character of God are necessary in order to the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation, and that without correct ideas of his character, the minds of men could not have sufficient power with God to the exercise of faith necessary to the enjoyment of eternal life, and that correct ideas of his character lay a foundation as far as his character is concerned, for the exercise of faith, so as to enjoy the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Jesus Christ, even that of eternal glory; we shall now proceed to show the connection there is between correct ideas of the attributes of God, and the exercise of faith in him unto eternal life.

2 Let us here observe, that the real design which the God of heaven had in view in making the human family acquainted with his attributes, was, that they through the ideas of the existence of his attributes, might be enabled to exercise faith in him, and through the exercise of faith in him, might obtain eternal life. For without the idea of the existence of the attributes which belong to God, the minds of men could not have power to exercise faith.

13 It is also necessary, in order to the exercise of faith in God, unto life and salvation, that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute justice, in him. For without the idea of the existence of the attribute Justice, in the Deity, men could not have confidence sufficiently to place themselves under his guidance and direction; for they would be filled with fear and doubt, lest the Judge of all the earth would not do right; and thus fear, or doubt, existing in the mind, would preclude the possibility of the exercise of faith in him for life and salvation. But, when the idea of the existence of the attribute justice, in the Deity, is fairly planted in the mind, it leaves.

From Lecture 6
7 Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice & offering, & that he has not nor will not seek his face.

So now we come to a very important question...Just who is the God we are to put our trust and faith in sufficient for salvation, Michael/Adam or Jehovah? I choose Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ in the flesh.

The Most High God is mentioned in Scripture, but no name is given. We call Him Elohim.

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Sarah
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Sarah »

jwharton wrote:
Sarah wrote:I've always imagined that those who are still alive at Christ's coming will be the only ones to continue to have mortal children.
By reading things in the new paradigm it encourages me to also look at things here differently.
For example, what is the difference between a child born in the covenant and a child born outside the covenant?
Also, is there a certain quality of soul that is being held back until Zion is redeemed because they are worthy to be held back until we do our job?
Put another way, I become inclined to look for significant distinctions in terms we are already familiar with rather than to look for things that defy the natural physical laws of nature.

It isn't my intent to declare that there won't be things happening that defy the natural laws because I do believe in miracles, but at the same time, I also want to make sure that I am not overlooking the obvious distinctions we are already familiar with here and now as well as project things in a way that does make sense within the constraints of our physical natural laws.
Sarah wrote:These will be telestial parents who have been transformed into terrestrial bodies, and they will continue to provide bodies for spirits. Is this what you believe?
I am fully prepared for things to happen in such a way that the non-discerning person will be clueless that the things you are talking about are actually happening. In other words, there will be spirits who are of differing qualities of intelligence who will begin to be born through those who qualify themselves to become the parents of these choice Millennial spirits. To an outside observer they won't really see any difference, but there will be a difference. I believe there are many choice spirits who are being held back waiting for us to actually get the Father's Kingdom established and free of the Luciferian usurpation.
Sarah wrote:And where do those spirits come from? What will those who have resurrected celestial bodies be doing? Will they have children during the millennium?
To an outside observer it will just appear that life is going on as usual. People will continue to have children and so on. Although, there will be some very significant differences in how families are put together. The basis of a marriage won't be attraction and romance as things will transition into the mode where everything will be governed by revelation. Marriages that exist in the Father's Kingdom will be based upon the fact that those marriages were already sealed beforehand.

This is why Priesthood confirmation will be necessary in order to validate that a couple is indeed facilitating an eternal marriage at the Celestial Glory to have its continuance. This is the basis upon which many LDS offshoots/ cults ascribe so much power and control over marriages to their priesthood leadership. When Jesus taught that people are not given in marriage in heaven or in the resurrection, this is what it means. The people that will live in Zion in its redeemed state will be people who are resurrected (spiritually) and receiving their eternal blessings.
In other words, there will be spirits who are of differing qualities of intelligence who will begin to be born through those who qualify themselves to become the parents of these choice Millennial spirits. To an outside observer they won't really see any difference, but there will be a difference. I believe there are many choice spirits who are being held back waiting for us to actually get the Father's Kingdom established and free of the Luciferian usurpation.
So where are these spirits, and how did they come into existence? You can't seem to answer this question for me, in order that I might see where the spirit-world fits into your paradigm. Does a single resurrected body - one distinct being's body - become mortal again? What about Kolob and everything explained about the heavens in the PofGP? I get the impression that you feel that everything regarding our eternal destiny centers upon this earth, and we continue to cycle in and out of lives on this earth. But where do spirits reside and resurrected beings? I can't yet determine if you feel resurrection only pertains flesh and bone covenant bodies on a spiritual level, or we indeed each receive our own perfect body.

For those worthy to inherit Celestial glory, what happens to them in the next cycle of creation? Do they have a veil of forgetfulness again? Do we take turns being the person of Adam and Eve, and Jesus or Mary for example? Are these like callings? Does Zion in the millennium represent the innocent Adam and Eve, that know no sin, and then when Satan is loosed at the end, that is when he tempts Adam and Eve again and they are cast into the wilderness all over again?
Marriages that exist in the Father's Kingdom will be based upon the fact that those marriages were already sealed beforehand.


Where is the Father's Kingdom that these marriages exist? Let's say I get sealed to the man/men I have been sealed to previously once things are set in order in the next seal. What is your understanding of how marriage relationships perpetuate themselves from one cycle to the next?

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Sarah
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Sarah »

freedomforall wrote:
Sarah wrote:It seems to me that jwharton has been trying to explain his views about doctrine in ways that explain everything being symbolic with something else, that perhaps we've never thought of before. If he is wrong in his interpretation of things I certainly do not want to defend that, but I see no need to vehemently denounce his beliefs unless he begins preaching that we DO something that is against God's laws. This is a debate about the nature of God and Adam. At least for me, defining behavior, behavior within the bounds the Lord has set, and behaving for the right reasons - that is what is important to me. It bothers me when I see posters preaching truth and half-truths in order to justify behavior such as leaving the Church, breaking a commandment, not following the counsel from our Apostles etc. - that makes me want to expose someone. There are some things that jwharton says that I think could change the way I look at things, but I still have unanswered questions about how his interpretations affect all of us in the long run.
When it comes to God, He is not symbolic, God is God, Jehovah, his First born Son is not symbolic. The Holy Spirit is not symbolic. Jehovah, the Spirit inside Jesus, making them Father and Son...is not symbolic.
Michael/Adam was like God and is symbolic in that light, however, it is who Michael is/was that is quite important to us. His role and purpose must be understood accurately. Symbols have their place but not where the Godhead is concerned.

From Lectures on Faith, Lecture 4 we read:
1 Having shown in the third lecture, that correct ideas of the character of God are necessary in order to the exercise of faith in him unto life and salvation, and that without correct ideas of his character, the minds of men could not have sufficient power with God to the exercise of faith necessary to the enjoyment of eternal life, and that correct ideas of his character lay a foundation as far as his character is concerned, for the exercise of faith, so as to enjoy the fulness of the blessing of the gospel of Jesus Christ, even that of eternal glory; we shall now proceed to show the connection there is between correct ideas of the attributes of God, and the exercise of faith in him unto eternal life.

2 Let us here observe, that the real design which the God of heaven had in view in making the human family acquainted with his attributes, was, that they through the ideas of the existence of his attributes, might be enabled to exercise faith in him, and through the exercise of faith in him, might obtain eternal life. For without the idea of the existence of the attributes which belong to God, the minds of men could not have power to exercise faith.

13 It is also necessary, in order to the exercise of faith in God, unto life and salvation, that men should have the idea of the existence of the attribute justice, in him. For without the idea of the existence of the attribute Justice, in the Deity, men could not have confidence sufficiently to place themselves under his guidance and direction; for they would be filled with fear and doubt, lest the Judge of all the earth would not do right; and thus fear, or doubt, existing in the mind, would preclude the possibility of the exercise of faith in him for life and salvation. But, when the idea of the existence of the attribute justice, in the Deity, is fairly planted in the mind, it leaves.

From Lecture 6
7 Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation; for from the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things: it was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things, that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has, for the truth's sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice, because he seeks to do his will, he does know most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice & offering, & that he has not nor will not seek his face.

So now we come to a very important question...Just who is the God we are to put our trust and faith in sufficient for salvation, Michael/Adam or Jehovah? I choose Jehovah, who is Jesus Christ in the flesh.

The Most High God is mentioned in Scripture, but no name is given. We call Him Elohim.
And that is where I seem to have a problem with what jwharton is saying. I feel like he is erring on the side of symbolism, and perhaps not seeing the physical or literal side to things too, when the reality is that it might be somewhere in the middle. That's why I'm not going to just disregard everything he believes in yet. I'd like to try to understand what truth there might be that some of these things that we've perhaps always just assumed were very literal, might also be symbolic of other things.

jwharton
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

Sarah wrote:And that is where I seem to have a problem with what jwharton is saying. I feel like he is erring on the side of symbolism, and perhaps not seeing the physical or literal side to things too, when the reality is that it might be somewhere in the middle. That's why I'm not going to just disregard everything he believes in yet. I'd like to try to understand what truth there might be that some of these things that we've perhaps always just assumed were very literal, might also be symbolic of other things.
It is a given that the language of symbols is what we are grappling with in both holy writ and in the temple ceremony.
What causes problems to arise is when people try and turn the symbols directly into the actual reality.
If that was the case then we wouldn't be given the understanding that we are viewing a symbolic representation.
Rather, if what we are being shown is the actual reality then we wouldn't be told that this is a representation of something else.

So, instead of taking the symbols and trying to force them to work literally,
I am seeking to properly decipher them to reach their practical and tangible meaning.
In doing this a person begins to acquire interpretive keys to unlock the hidden reality depicted.

In other words, just because planetoids, animals, plants, birds, Adam, Eve, etc. are being depicted during the creation narrative, it doesn't mean that this is the whole of the story at face value. All of these depictions are the symbolic representation that we should not directly and literally superimpose on our current reality frame absent the necessary keys to translate it properly.

In short, I say that translation using keys is required while others just try to make the narrative work literally with no translation.

The whole concept of the "sealed portion" implies that there is a hidden message about a tangible reality available if you have the keys to decipher it.

In other words, there is an actual tangible and practical meaning behind the planetoids, animals, plants, birds, Adam, Eve, etc. that is being depicted. All of those things depicted are symbols of something else and the ability to come to "see" what that something else actually is pertains to whether someone has opened up the sealed portion of the scriptures or if they are still trying to force this narrative of mere symbols onto the physical reality of things.

What I am exploring is an entirely different paradigm.

The standard orthodox paradigm is that Adam is not a symbol that represents something but rather that Adam was a human being just like everyone else. He is depicted as a human being in every respect, just like we are human beings. This is ignoring that Adam is a symbol of something and just taking Adam as a regular guy like everyone else.

The paradigm I am inviting people to look into gives an entirely new perspective on the character and nature of Adam. Instead of trying to imply that some regular guy like me lived on the earth 6,000 years ago and that he lived for 930 years as a regular guy like me, and so on. But, rather, that Adam was a being of flesh and bone in that the literal manner in which Adam tangibly existed in our reality is as a unified covenant body composed of individuals as its members. In other words, Adam represents the Priesthood Body, of which individuals can become members of.

So, if someone is going to look for the actual archaeological evidence of the tangible manner in which Adam lived 6,000 years ago they would actually look for a long-standing society of king-priests who had temples and who went to great lengths to gather up all of the names of the individuals and perform temple ordinances to give them their new names and who ruled and reigned over a kingdom that championed individual unalienable rights and who likely also enjoyed a fairly high level of technological advancement and so on. It would very likely have been a golden age society under the just governance of the Melchizedek Priesthood.

And, by looking at it in the manner that I do, this opens up the means by which we can see that right here and now we as individuals can become members of the flesh and bone bodies of Adam and Eve as we are again on the cusp of bringing in a new golden age society that has as its king-priests holders of the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood. And, we can expect that the society we are building up and establishing will live for the better part of the Millennium. And, we are again gathering up all of the genealogical data and performing all of the temple work to organize the new Creation that we are laying the foundation for here and now.

I am saying that the symbols in the creation account can and should be deciphered directly into things that are real and tangible right now.
There isn't a need to acquire your own fresh brand new habitable planet somewhere out in the cosmos to fully realize the promised blessings.

I am simply intent upon correctly deciphering symbols into their actual meaning instead of getting hung up trying to make the symbol itself the reality.

freedomforall
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

Sarah wrote:And that is where I seem to have a problem with what jwharton is saying. I feel like he is erring on the side of symbolism, and perhaps not seeing the physical or literal side to things too, when the reality is that it might be somewhere in the middle. That's why I'm not going to just disregard everything he believes in yet. I'd like to try to understand what truth there might be that some of these things that we've perhaps always just assumed were very literal, might also be symbolic of other things.
And I highly respect your motive, and your candid observation and search for truth or fiction. You're keeping an eye open and an ear so as to net be deceived...and that is good.
I have been able to pick up on the little discrepancies in the doctrine presented, and the beliefs not in light with what scriptures actually, ie, more than one way to interpret scripture is a complete fallacy.
I also think someone is going way beyond the mark in an attempt to create or resurrect a doctrine filled with holes...holes that only can change the whole meaning, intent and purpose. God's word does not change, unless He revokes or adds something, so why should man change it as written? It's up to us to ask God for the correct interpretation for clarity and understanding that only God can provide. Leaning on the arm of flesh may be the wrong direction, unless that man is teaching truths in accordance with the Holy Spirit by revelation.
To say we Mormons must set aside the teachings of today and that it is crucial to do so...is a huge red flag to many saints.

I am certain he is trying to defend his position, however, I can provide scriptural teachings without his ego and "I have a better way, and you better look at it closely to see why" attitude.
If he were to admit that his ideas are only opinions, but that he could be wrong, this would be one thing. His directives do not reflect this paradigm. It's too "this is the only way and if you do not accept it, you're going to miss out on knowing how I see these things" conclusion. He hasn't demonstrated that he is willing to take scriptures for what they are. The obsession with things written in the JOD appear to supersede reasoning. What I have learned was hard earned and it has become my testimony, a testimony he is willing to tromp on with that obsessive behavior. This is why I felt the need to bow out. I also told him I have a special gift from God that he treated very lightly. But that gift is what helps my know truth from error. I just don't see myself waving a flag in the process. I understand his zeal but not the obsession to push doctrine that was never canonized nor accepted as viable doctrine for the whole membership of he church to all of a sudden adopt and go by.
This doctrine should be brought forth by the President of the church, by revelation, not some guy on a forum trying so hard to change people from what they believe in and have faith in. He is not the prophet, he is merely a man attempting to resurrect a dead, three legged horse.
He may have some interesting points that could be further explored, but this is up to the person asking for that information, but they might want to ask Father.
Last edited by freedomforall on May 3rd, 2016, 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jwharton
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

freedomforall wrote:It's up to us to ask God for the correct interpretation for clarity and understanding that only God can provide.
This is precisely what I have been doing and what led me to understand things the way I do.
You are correct that anything given by revelation also needs to be understood by revelation.

Just because you are unfamiliar with how I have come to interpret things doesn't mean they are automatically wrong.
However, you have a lot of stereotypes and baggage blinding you to what I am actually attempting to share.
And, despite the fact that you don't really understand what I am attempting to share, you condemn it anyway.

There isn't a single oracle given of God that my manner of understanding things is out of harmony with.
There are some personal opinions and edicts after the 1900's that start to muddy things up, but I violate no oracles whatever.
And, I also have the benefit of bringing much needed clarity to the earlier doctrines so many people had such trouble with.

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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by freedomforall »

This isn't the first time I have had Jwharton on my ignore list. I have dealt with this arrogance in the past. So his comments mean nothing to me. I don't read them, they are blocked for that purpose.

jwharton
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

I recommend people read this chapter and have in mind the brass plates containing the Torah and the Prophets and that the sealed portion pertains to all of Holy Writ, not just the Book of Mormon only.

2 Nephi chapter 27
1 But, behold, in the last days, or in the days of the Gentiles--yea, behold all the nations of the Gentiles and also the Jews, both those who shall come upon this land and those who shall be upon other lands, yea, even upon all the lands of the earth, behold, they will be drunken with iniquity and all manner of abominations--
2 And when that day shall come they shall be visited of the Lord of Hosts, with thunder and with earthquake, and with a great noise, and with storm, and with tempest, and with the flame of devouring fire.
3 And all the nations that fight against Zion, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision; yea, it shall be unto them, even as unto a hungry man which dreameth, and behold he eateth but he awaketh and his soul is empty; or like unto a thirsty man which dreameth, and behold he drinketh but he awaketh and behold he is faint, and his soul hath appetite; yea, even so shall the multitude of all the nations be that fight against Mount Zion.
4 For behold, all ye that doeth iniquity, stay yourselves and wonder, for ye shall cry out, and cry; yea, ye shall be drunken but not with wine, ye shall stagger but not with strong drink.
5 For behold, the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep. For behold, ye have closed your eyes, and ye have rejected the prophets; and your rulers, and the seers hath he covered because of your iniquity.
6 And it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall bring forth unto you the words of a book, and they shall be the words of them which have slumbered.
7 And behold the book shall be sealed; and in the book shall be a revelation from God, from the beginning of the world to the ending thereof.
8 Wherefore, because of the things which are sealed up, the things which are sealed shall not be delivered in the day of the wickedness and abominations of the people. Wherefore the book shall be kept from them.
9 But the book shall be delivered unto a man, and he shall deliver the words of the book, which are the words of those who have slumbered in the dust, and he shall deliver these words unto another;
10 But the words which are sealed he shall not deliver, neither shall he deliver the book. For the book shall be sealed by the power of God, and the revelation which was sealed shall be kept in the book until the own due time of the Lord, that they may come forth; for behold, they reveal all things from the foundation of the world unto the end thereof.
11 And the day cometh that the words of the book which were sealed shall be read upon the house tops; and they shall be read by the power of Christ; and all things shall be revealed unto the children of men which ever have been among the children of men, and which ever will be even unto the end of the earth.
12 Wherefore, at that day when the book shall be delivered unto the man of whom I have spoken, the book shall be hid from the eyes of the world, that the eyes of none shall behold it save it be that three witnesses shall behold it, by the power of God, besides him to whom the book shall be delivered; and they shall testify to the truth of the book and the things therein.
13 And there is none other which shall view it, save it be a few according to the will of God, to bear testimony of his word unto the children of men; for the Lord God hath said that the words of the faithful should speak as if it were from the dead.
14 Wherefore, the Lord God will proceed to bring forth the words of the book; and in the mouth of as many witnesses as seemeth him good will he establish his word; and wo be unto him that rejecteth the word of God!
15 But behold, it shall come to pass that the Lord God shall say unto him to whom he shall deliver the book: Take these words which are not sealed and deliver them to another, that he may show them unto the learned, saying: Read this, I pray thee. And the learned shall say: Bring hither the book, and I will read them.
16 And now, because of the glory of the world and to get gain will they say this, and not for the glory of God.
17 And the man shall say: I cannot bring the book, for it is sealed.
18 Then shall the learned say: I cannot read it.
19 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that the Lord God will deliver again the book and the words thereof to him that is not learned; and the man that is not learned shall say: I am not learned.
20 Then shall the Lord God say unto him: The learned shall not read them, for they have rejected them, and I am able to do mine own work; wherefore thou shalt read the words which I shall give unto thee.
21 Touch not the things which are sealed, for I will bring them forth in mine own due time; for I will show unto the children of men that I am able to do mine own work.
22 Wherefore, when thou hast read the words which I have commanded thee, and obtained the witnesses which I have promised unto thee, then shalt thou seal up the book again, and hide it up unto me, that I may preserve the words which thou hast not read, until I shall see fit in mine own wisdom to reveal all things unto the children of men.
23 For behold, I am God; and I am a God of miracles; and I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith.
24 And again it shall come to pass that the Lord shall say unto him that shall read the words that shall be delivered him:
25 Forasmuch as this people draw near unto me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their hearts far from me, and their fear towards me is taught by the precepts of men--
26 Therefore, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, yea, a marvelous work and a wonder, for the wisdom of their wise and learned shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent shall be hid.
27 And wo unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord! And their works are in the dark; and they say: Who seeth us, and who knoweth us? And they also say: Surely, your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay. But behold, I will show unto them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that I know all their works. For shall the work say of him that made it, he made me not? Or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, he had no understanding?
28 But behold, saith the Lord of Hosts: I will show unto the children of men that it is yet a very little while and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field; and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest.
29 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness.
30 And the meek also shall increase, and their joy shall be in the Lord, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
31 For assuredly as the Lord liveth they shall see that the terrible one is brought to naught, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off;
32 And they that make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of naught.
33 Therefore, thus saith the Lord, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob: Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
34 But when he seeth his children, the work of my hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
35 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

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Sarah
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Sarah »

then shalt thou seal up the book again, and hide it up unto me, that I may preserve the words which thou hast not read, until I shall see fit in mine own wisdom to reveal all things unto the children of men.
This sounds like to me that the sealed portion included actual words that Joseph did not read.

jwharton
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by jwharton »

Sarah wrote:
then shalt thou seal up the book again, and hide it up unto me, that I may preserve the words which thou hast not read, until I shall see fit in mine own wisdom to reveal all things unto the children of men.
This sounds like to me that the sealed portion included actual words that Joseph did not read.
Yes, I see what you are saying. This would indeed mean that even though Joseph had access to the sealed portion he may not have been able to fully explore it.

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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Ladwpman »

I believe that patterns can be seen in the way the Lord deals with His children here on the earth and how He advances His Plans. With this in mind let's look at when the "Sealed Portion", brother of Jareds actual record, was "opened" the first time and the condition that surrounded the event. Be it remembered that Mosiah had that record and kept them sealed until the Resurrected Christ came and then the record was opened. What were the conditions then?.....well, all government systems they were under were thrown down, and only the more righteous part of the people remained. This set up the ideal setting for a Righteous Theocracy to begin allowing them to live in accordance with new, pure and additional knowledge provided by the "Sealed" portion. Then they lived in a Golden Era for nearly 300 years. So if God were to repeat the pattern, then He would throw down all nations, and spare the righteous once again.....sounds like events of His Second Coming. This would imply that as Saints, we won't see the Sealed portion until then. But wait, something else to consider. Before the Nephite event, the Brass Plates were used as a great missionary tool to get the people, mostly the Lamanites, ready for Jesus''s visit to them.....a Great tool for conversion!....would it not "fit" the pattern today for that recorded to come forth with the same goal to basically the same group of people?.....it has been prophesied to come forth, perhaps for the same reason following the same pattern. Just some thoughts.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Sealed portion of the plates

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

Very well presented Ladwpman. I have felt that translation would come to Zion and not be manifested to the world, er the foundations is laid seven years before the Messiah's coming. When the gathering of the Elect comes on the very last day, then would the world know and see the Kingdom shine forth like unto the sun. So, will it be a gradual manifesting of that Priesthood and enlightenment? Yes! Because those whom do the gathering must be Translated long before the very last day!

We know the Two Witnesses will come forth three and one half years before the end, that they will be translated. It seems scripturally that it has to be restored a little earlier then the day of the Messiah's coming. Now yes it does not have to come through the writings of Mahonri Moriancumer but what other purposes does such a record have, being sealed up and then restored in the latter days? Surely not to titillate itching ears :D

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