How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

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zionminded
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by zionminded »

BTH&T wrote:There seems to be a subtle bash as is typical.
I don't mind questions, but I don't enjoy purposeful twistings that are meant to rob faith.
The Gospel and it's workings rely on Faith (first principle) and this as well as many other threads
seem to look for things that tear down faith.
Very simple and basic, Faith..in things not seen. BUT true none the less.
Faith doesn't save, it's the starting point. Knowledge is what is required. Nobody goes to heaven with a surprise they qualified because they had lots of faith. They know it in advance, because they became it, having transcended faith.

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BTH&T
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by BTH&T »

zionminded wrote:
BTH&T wrote:There seems to be a subtle bash as is typical.
I don't mind questions, but I don't enjoy purposeful twistings that are meant to rob faith.
The Gospel and it's workings rely on Faith (first principle) and this as well as many other threads
seem to look for things that tear down faith.
Very simple and basic, Faith..in things not seen. BUT true none the less.
Faith doesn't save, it's the starting point. Knowledge is what is required. Nobody goes to heaven with a surprise they qualified because they had lots of faith. They know it in advance, because they became it, having transcended faith.
True, Faith is the starting point. but it does save, without it there would be no start.

At what point does faith become non-essential?
Mankind is a very long way from a perfect knowledge of anything.
Tearing down the essential building blocks of faith are destructive to ones testimony; tearing down others faith is what evil attempts to do.

zionminded
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by zionminded »

BTH&T wrote:
zionminded wrote:
BTH&T wrote:There seems to be a subtle bash as is typical.
I don't mind questions, but I don't enjoy purposeful twistings that are meant to rob faith.
The Gospel and it's workings rely on Faith (first principle) and this as well as many other threads
seem to look for things that tear down faith.
Very simple and basic, Faith..in things not seen. BUT true none the less.
Faith doesn't save, it's the starting point. Knowledge is what is required. Nobody goes to heaven with a surprise they qualified because they had lots of faith. They know it in advance, because they became it, having transcended faith.
True, Faith is the starting point. but it does save, without it there would be no start.

At what point does faith become non-essential?
Mankind is a very long way from a perfect knowledge of anything.
Tearing down the essential building blocks of faith are destructive to ones testimony; tearing down others faith is what evil attempts to do.
Faith is always essential. But believing it is all you need is equally destructive. See The school of the prophets and lectures of faith.

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BTH&T
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by BTH&T »

zionminded wrote:Faith is always essential. But believing it is all you need is equally destructive. See The school of the prophets and lectures of faith.
Agreed, line upon line till that perfect day. and yes I have much work to do I know!

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

BTH&T wrote:There seems to be a subtle bash as is typical.
I don't mind questions, but I don't enjoy purposeful twistings that are meant to rob faith.
The Gospel and it's workings rely on Faith (first principle) and this as well as many other threads
seem to look for things that tear down faith.
Very simple and basic, Faith..in things not seen. BUT true none the less.
lol, I thought typical was an all out blaringly obvious bash. ;)

Sometimes, when we experiment and search and try our faith, it is proven wrong, refined or changed entirely. It can be difficult for us. This thread was somewhat difficult for me as I lost a number of beliefs that I had previously held. But, I am built on the rock and therefore remain unshaken. In the end, I learned a TON about where we were and how we came to be here now. I think about 60% on the information from the OP to page 3 or so was new to me, and I didn't even write all of what I had learned. I lost a significant amount of faith in false things as well. Glad to let it go. False faith won't save anyone. It is blinding.

Of' those who go to the Telestial kingdom, the lord said to Joseph Smith in revelation,
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. - D&C 76
I am a little less blind now than I was before.

I want my faith challenged. I want to put it through the fire. I know that truth can stand it but error cannot. If I believe in errors, I want to learn it and resolve it before those errors cost me dearly. I know that truth is never truly under attack. It stands independent and firm. Sometimes, the feeling of sand shifting under us is unsettling and even disturbing. But when all the sand is removed, we find ourselves on the rock. The rock is the only thing that doesn't give you that unsettling feeling. It gives you peace. His peace. And it feels good even when the rest of your world is shifting as you discover and remove more sand around you.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

The fulness of his gospel does not include temples, endowments, sealings, tithing, and anything else, just fulfilling the lower law and getting the spirit....
That's not what the LDS church teaches. Having the holy ghost as our guide is what we all strive for. The fullness of the gospel are the doctrines, principles and ordinances of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints.
Another quote relevant to this conversation.
"I say we need to teach our people to find their answers in the scriptures. If only each of us would be wise enough to say that we aren't able to answer any question unless we can find a doctrinal answer in the scriptures! And if we hear someone teaching something that is contrary to what is in the scriptures, each of us may know whether the things spoken are false -it is as simple as that. But the unfortunate thing is that so many of us are not reading the scriptures. We do not know what is in them, and therefore we speculate about the things that we ought to have found in the scriptures themselves. I think therein is one of our biggest dangers of today."

"The Lord has given us in the standard works the means by which we should measure truth and untruth. May we all heed His word: 'Thou shalt take the things which thou hast received, which have been given unto thee in my scriptures for a law, to be my law to govern my church.' " D&C 42:59 (First Presidency Message, Ensign, December 1972.)
We have seen many scriptures that are plain and clear regarding what Christ's gospel is. If the church or members of the church are teaching contrary to the scriptures, it is because they don't know them. The Lord said that the scriptures are the law of the church and the church is subject to them.

If we as members do not know the scriptures and we do not read them for what they say, (as opposed to what we want them to say), then when we get called to serve as teachers, or manual writers or leaders, we will perpetuate false ideas and spread them. For the last number of years, in our Priesthood/Relief Society classes, we have studied the words of prophets. As we have, I have seen many lessons or statements which have contradicted the scriptures, and the spirit. But, because the words are presented as coming from a prophet, they are accepted as correct. We are all learning, even the leaders. As much as I have studied, seen angels, conversed with Christ and God and received the highest blessings available to us while existing as mortals, I still have false beliefs. I could not expect our teachers, leaders and manual writers to not also have false beliefs.

Our condemnation as a church results from not going to the scriptures, particularly the book of Mormon. I believe that that condemnation has a lot to do with not knowing the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I have pointed out before that if you asked 100 active, temple recommend holding LDS what the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is, they will give you about 80 answers. If you asked them if they knew where you could get it in the scriptures, you would be given a number of guesses, (most of them saying in the book of Mormon, somewhere in the whole thing.) We are so pleased with ourselves for joining the right church and that we have the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But, in general, we as a church don't even know what it is.

If we don't know what the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is, we can't apply it correctly. If we can't apply it correctly, then we can't receive the blessings it promises. The #1 blessing of living the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the promise of exaltation which we call our Calling and Election made sure. If you haven't received that promise, I guarantee you it is because you are not living the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ OR it is because you just started living it. If you live it correctly and religiously for a period of time, (and you have a good heart - Mighty Change of Heart), then you will receive the promise and you will be brought back into God's presence. I have seen it happen more than a hundred times.

As a member of the Church of the Firstborn, and acting in my calling as a missionary for that church, (D&C 77:11), I bear my witness to these things and invite all who will come to the Church of the Firstborn to become inheritors of the promise with all the blessings, rights and privileges of the Firstborn of God. Believe in Christ, but first believe Christ. Believe what he taught and apply it. Repent, be baptized (Once is enough, D&C 22:2) and if you do it with full purpose of heart, then God will baptize you with fire and the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the voice of God. Follow his voice and you will find its source.

I testify that I know these things by experience, not faith, but knowledge. I am not guessing on these points. I have seen Christ and felt his embrace. I have seen God and been enveloped in His burning glory. I know the path because I have walked it. I know the path because I have help over a hundred other people walk the same path back to God's presence to enjoy the fruit of His love. The path is clear and taught with incredible plainness throughout the scriptures. It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its fulness, and it works. (Anything more or less than the Fulness of the Gospel will not produce the same results.)

Of these things I testify with all the love, power and wisdom I posses, in the name of my dear friend Jesus Christ, amen.
Last edited by Amonhi on March 31st, 2016, 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Matthew.B
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Matthew.B »

Amonhi wrote:Another quote relevant to this conversation.
"I say we need to teach our people to find their answers in the scriptures. If only each of us would be wise enough to say that we aren't able to answer any question unless we can find a doctrinal answer in the scriptures! And if we hear someone teaching something that is contrary to what is in the scriptures, each of us may know whether the things spoken are false -it is as simple as that. But the unfortunate thing is that so many of us are not reading the scriptures. We do not know what is in them, and therefore we speculate about the things that we ought to have found in the scriptures themselves. I think therein is one of our biggest dangers of today."
Where's this quote from, Amonhi? I couldn't find it in the First Presidency Message cited, and an internet search revealed no results.

EDIT: Found it. I was using a word search that was too narrow. You cut out a part in the middle, though, where Elder Lee essentially adds "authentic declarations of Presidents of the Church" to the "Standard Works" as a valid source for determining truth.

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

Quote in context:
FIRST PRESIDENCY MESSAGE - "Find the Answers in the Scriptures" By President Harold B. Lee
The Lord has said to us, “But ye are commanded in all things to ask of God, who giveth liberally; and that which the Spirit testifies unto you even so I would that ye should do in all holiness of heart, walking uprightly before me, considering the end of your salvation, doing all things with prayer and thanksgiving, that ye may not be seduced by evil spirits, or doctrines of devils, or the commandments of men; for some are of men, and others of devils.” (D&C 46:7.)

I say that we need to teach our people to find their answers in the scriptures. If only each of us would be wise enough to say that we aren’t able to answer any question unless we can find a doctrinal answer in the scriptures! And if we hear someone teaching something that is contrary to what is in the scriptures, each of us may know whether the things spoken are false—it is as simple as that. But the unfortunate thing is that so many of us are not reading the scriptures. We do not know what is in them, and therefore we speculate about the things that we ought to have found in the scriptures themselves. I think that therein is one of our biggest dangers of today.

When I meet with our missionaries and they ask questions about things pertaining to the temple, I say to them, as I close the discussion, “I don’t dare answer any of your questions unless I can find an answer in the standard works or in the authentic declarations of presidents of the Church.”

The Lord has given us in the standard works the means by which we should measure truth and untruth. May we all heed his word: “Thou shalt take the things which thou hast received, which have been given unto thee in my scriptures for a law, to be my law to govern my church.” (D&C 42:59.) - LDS.org
Peace,
Amonhi

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Sarah
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Sarah »

I don't understand how some of you can quote from Latter-Day-Prophets to make your point, and then on the other hand claim they are keeping people from the truth. No consistency. Are they necessary in the Lord's work or are they not?

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Sarah
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

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zionminded wrote:
Sarah wrote:If you repent, are baptized, have faith in Christ, and then receive the Holy Ghost, you will recognize truth when it is revealed to you, INCLUDING a witness of true prophets, further revelation, doctrines pertaining to the priesthood, new scripture, etc. Even if you have the Holy Ghost, if you choose to reject truth as it is taught to you, then you will loose the companionship of the Holy Ghost.
Missionaries actually teach those who have not been baptized can be shown truth, see Moroni 10:5.

If you reject truth you lose the spirit? Does this include church leaders who have rejected truths in the past? I'm not sure rejecting truth results in a loss of the companionship of the H.G., but it certainly does result in consequences as you don't follow the promptings of the spirit.
I didn't say people without the Gift of the Holy Ghost could not feel the Spirit testify of truth. I said that if you have the Spirit with you, you would recognize truth, including J.S. and all the doctrines he taught. You would gain a testimony of prophets today and their words, which I have. It comes down to what you believe the spirit is confirming as truth.

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Sarah
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Sarah »

Finrock wrote:
Amonhi wrote:...[O]nce you know the rock on which you should build and start building it, then you can no longer fall. If you can no longer fall, then you qualify to be given your C&E because God isn't risking anything, He knows you won't fall because you built on the rock. If you build on anything else, then you will fall. People build their foundations on all sorts of things; The church, the Prophets & Apostles, Temples, eternal families, obedience, whatever... All sand... There is only one rock.
This is profound. I'm going to try to say this as plainly as I understand it. This is for the benefit of all and for God's glory.

When you are baptized by fire you receive the Holy Ghost. Receiving the Holy Ghost means that your spirit is made holy. Your spirit has become a Holy Spirit, through the sanctifying blood of Jesus Christ. You have received the Holy Ghost. You are no longer who you were before. You are not carnal, but holy. This sanctifying event is real, true, and becomes an anchor.

Yes, this seems impossible! I struggled to believe that Jesus Christ was powerful enough to make me clean. I know how sinful I have been. I know I am nothing. I know I am weak. It was hard to believe that Christ could make me clean, pure, and without spot. But, have faith and believe! It is true, He can do it! He can make you clean, pure, and without spot so that you can become a Holy Spirit.

Since my baptism by fire my trials have persisted and even increased, yet, having received the Holy Ghost and trusting in that condescension of God, I have found a sure place to build my life. This is why this event is so important to receive and to understand. It provides the very foundation upon which we can rise up to become perfected and to receive all God has for us.

Satan (world) would have us to disbelieve that we can become clean and pure. He would have us disregard such notions. But receiving the Holy Ghost is an event which changes your very spirit and "writes God's law in to your heart and in to your mind". It took me some time to understand this but what Amonhi points out here in plainness is important for those who have received the Holy Ghost to understand. That event/experience/change is the rock upon which we can build our life. Knowing and believing this increases our faith in that assurance. Further it allows you to have hope that God has your back and won't abandon you, leading you to have greater faith in receiving or having already received your calling and election.

These things become sure anchors which secure us down so that when all things fade like vapor, our feet are firmly planted upon a foundation that cannot fail. We can rely on Christ. Accept Him and His way. Allow that idea to prevail in your thoughts and in your mind, in all situations. Knowing God has saved you and won't abandon you, you can begin to go forward with an almost reckless abandon in applying the principles of Christ in life, no matter what, come hell or high water, you will not abandon Christ because He will not abandon you. We press forward, allowing each failure to refine us and accepting life on God's terms, having patience and love towards ourselves and all because we know Christ is patient and loving towards us.

-Finrock
Thanks Finrock, I can't seem to find a single sentiment here that I or most Saints would disagree with.

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Sarah
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Sarah »

But of course, your definition of certain words or phrases could be different from how I understand them.

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Matthew.B
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

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Sarah wrote:I don't understand how some of you can quote from Latter-Day-Prophets to make your point, and then on the other hand claim they are keeping people from the truth. No consistency. Are they necessary in the Lord's work or are they not?
I think the point is that those who do accept them as PSR's are necessarily required, by their own belief system, to accept their words as valid bases for the rational interpretation of scripture and understanding correct doctrine.

Plus, there's a lot of good, true statements from Church leadership over the years.

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Sarah
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Sarah »

Amonhi wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:
zionminded wrote:
Sarah wrote:If you repent, are baptized, have faith in Christ, and then receive the Holy Ghost, you will recognize truth when it is revealed to you, INCLUDING a witness of true prophets, further revelation, doctrines pertaining to the priesthood, new scripture, etc. Even if you have the Holy Ghost, if you choose to reject truth as it is taught to you, then you will loose the companionship of the Holy Ghost.
Missionaries actually teach those who have not been baptized can be shown truth, see Moroni 10:5.

If you reject truth you lose the spirit? Does this include church leaders who have rejected truths in the past? I'm not sure rejecting truth results in a loss of the companionship of the H.G., but it certainly does result in consequences as you don't follow the promptings of the spirit.
What church leaders have rejected actual 'truths'? Are these 'truths' things that you believe to be true, or are they known teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, cause I'm pretty sure you're one of those on the forum who has their own view of what 'truth' is, and it's not in harmony with the teachings of the LDS church.

Sarah is right, if you reject truth you lose the spirit you even lose the truths that you had; this is what Alma warned about; Alma 12:9-11. Also, as a person rejects truth, they are more easily deceived by Satan and more easily drawn into temptation and sin.
With that in mind, the truth is that the ONLY rock on which you can build a sure foundation is the Holy Ghost, which is the voice of God to you directly. This is the ONLY foundation which the Jesus says will save us from the gates of hell.
“Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved; And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you." (D&C 33:11-13)

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them." 3Ne 11:39-40
Peace,
Amonhi
Since the Holy Ghost is the final step and the "ONLY" rock to build on, which I don't disagree with, then has the Holy Ghost told you to reject Joseph Smith, because he sure taught a lot more than this simple message.

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Sarah
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Sarah »

Matthew.B wrote:
Sarah wrote:I don't understand how some of you can quote from Latter-Day-Prophets to make your point, and then on the other hand claim they are keeping people from the truth. No consistency. Are they necessary in the Lord's work or are they not?
I think the point is that those who do accept them as PSR's are necessarily required, by their own belief system, to accept their words as valid bases for the rational interpretation of scripture and understanding correct doctrine.

Plus, there's a lot of good, true statements from Church leadership over the years.
Okay, so perhaps for some it's really just to show believers how they are hypocritical.

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Sarah
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Sarah »

zionminded wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:
zionminded wrote:
Sarah wrote:If you repent, are baptized, have faith in Christ, and then receive the Holy Ghost, you will recognize truth when it is revealed to you, INCLUDING a witness of true prophets, further revelation, doctrines pertaining to the priesthood, new scripture, etc. Even if you have the Holy Ghost, if you choose to reject truth as it is taught to you, then you will loose the companionship of the Holy Ghost.
Missionaries actually teach those who have not been baptized can be shown truth, see Moroni 10:5.

If you reject truth you lose the spirit? Does this include church leaders who have rejected truths in the past? I'm not sure rejecting truth results in a loss of the companionship of the H.G., but it certainly does result in consequences as you don't follow the promptings of the spirit.
What church leaders have rejected actual 'truths'? Are these 'truths' things that you believe to be true, or are they known teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, cause I'm pretty sure you're one of those on the forum who has their own view of what 'truth' is, and it's not in harmony with the teachings of the LDS church.

Sarah is right, if you reject truth you lose the spirit you even lose the truths that you had; this is what Alma warned about; Alma 12:9-11. Also, as a person rejects truth, they are more easily deceived by Satan and more easily drawn into temptation and sin.
The church taught that polygamy was required for salvation, then changed it, and made it an excommunicatable offense. During those years, did church leaders lose the spirit? What about when they taught that black men were not worthy to receive the priesthood because they made choices in the preexistence to make them not worth and they were born to race that was cursed? Did they lose the spirit during those years?

You lose the spirit, yes, when you turn away from truth, but when you turn back, you get it back quickly. God doesn't use "having the spirit" like a weapon against you, to punish you when you do something wrong, but he uses it as a way (strong way) to let you know when your off track. This is a long topic, that only those who have gone through a repentance process can know and understand.
This really comes down to a disagreement over "truth." Since I am convinced that what our leaders did in both instances was the Lord's will, then that makes me and every other believer suspect I guess of actually being born again, having gone through true repentance, and having the Holy Ghost as our companion. I get it. I do want to testify to you though that I do know what it feels like to be completely healed of sin and to become clean, in a miraculous way. Does that mean I am perfect right now? No, I am still striving to follow the promptings I receive from the Holy Ghost, and live according to the revelations I've received, and those revelations direct me to become more Christ-like, to throw off the natural man, and keep my temple covenants.

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Sarah
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

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Amonhi wrote:
Sarah wrote:If you repent, are baptized, have faith in Christ, and then receive the Holy Ghost, you will recognize truth when it is revealed to you, INCLUDING a witness of true prophets, further revelation, doctrines pertaining to the priesthood, new scripture, etc. Even if you have the Holy Ghost, if you choose to reject truth as it is taught to you, then you will loose the companionship of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus said that there is a rock on which if you build, you cannot fall. He also said that if you build on any other rock, you will certainly fall. Then he told us exactly what that rock is. This message is repeated through out the scriptures.

Are you saying that if we reject those truths, then we will loose the companionship of the Holy Ghost, which actually is the rock on which we need to build?
This assertion that the Lord can only trust you if you build upon him as your rock and NOT LET ANYTHING ELSE GET IN THE WAY is the same doctrine espoused by main-stream Christianity as an excuse for rejecting the BofM, Joseph Smith, and further revelation, just repackaged for Latter-Day-Saints.
You might be right if the Holy Ghost taught you absolutely nothing and couldn't be trusted whatsoever. However, seeing that the Holy Ghost is the voice of God, (speaks the words of Christ), it will teach and show you all things what you should do. Nephi, what could you tell us about Christ's doctrine?
1 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, I suppose that ye ponder somewhat in your hearts concerning that which ye should do after ye have entered in by the way(Repentance & Baptism, Fire and the Holy Ghost). But, behold, why do ye ponder these things in your hearts?
2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.
4 Wherefore, now after I have spoken these words, if ye cannot understand them it will be because ye ask not, neither do ye knock; wherefore, ye are not brought into the light, but must perish in the dark.
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.
6 Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do. - 2 Nephi 32
After you receive the Holy Ghost, if you follow it, it will lead you along back into God's presence faster than any other thing can. If will tell you to accept or reject every teaching and doctrine, book of scripture, talk or sermon, etc. It will teach you all principles, doctrines, ordinances, etc. Leaving nothing out. It is a God and a member of the God head. Prophets are not. Apostles are not. Churches are not.

So, contrary to what you think this means, rather than damn you, it will progress you. If you follow a prophet and make the prophet your rock, (because all foundations except the one defined by Christ are sandy foundations), you will fall and "the gates of hell stand open to receive you."
“Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved; And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you." (D&C 33:11-13)

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them." 3Ne 11:39-40
Amonhi, I assume then that you believe Joseph was in good standing with God until he started introducing temple building and doctrines associated with the ordinances we participate therein, including the doctrine on eternal marriage.
It isn't a problem to teach truth. It is a problem to establish it as Christ's gospel and doctrine. The doctrine and gospel of Jesus Christ is the means by which we obtain truth. If we obtain truth in any other way, it is not of God.
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God. - D&C 50:19-20
So, if you receive truth by the prophet because of his position, then you are receiving truth by priesthood position and not of God.If you receive truth by manual, then it is not of God. Even if it is true, you are not receiving it by the means of the spirit of truth, (which is the voice of God), so you didn't receive it from God. If you rely on any means to determine truth beside the Holy Ghost, then you are not built on the rock and you will fall.

Peace,
Amonhi
Sorry for so many posts. But Amonhi, you still didn't answer my question about Joseph Smith. You said it is okay to teach truth, but it is not okay to establish it as doctrine. So what I want to know is if you believe J.S. just taught numerous things as truth, and not as doctrine, or if you think he did teach things for doctrine, thus becoming a fallen prophet.

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BTH&T
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by BTH&T »

Amonhi wrote: lol, I thought typical was an all out blaringly obvious bash. ;)
passive-aggressive bash!
:p

Sometimes, when we experiment and search and try our faith, it is proven wrong, refined or changed entirely. It can be difficult for us. This thread was somewhat difficult for me as I lost a number of beliefs that I had previously held. But, I am built on the rock and therefore remain unshaken. In the end, I learned a TON about where we were and how we came to be here now. I think about 60% on the information from the OP to page 3 or so was new to me, and I didn't even write all of what I had learned. I lost a significant amount of faith in false things as well. Glad to let it go. False faith won't save anyone. It is blinding.

Of' those who go to the Telestial kingdom, the lord said to Joseph Smith in revelation,
75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men. - D&C 76
I am a little less blind now than I was before.

I want my faith challenged. I want to put it through the fire. I know that truth can stand it but error cannot. If I believe in errors, I want to learn it and resolve it before those errors cost me dearly. I know that truth is never truly under attack. It stands independent and firm. Sometimes, the feeling of sand shifting under us is unsettling and even disturbing. But when all the sand is removed, we find ourselves on the rock. The rock is the only thing that doesn't give you that unsettling feeling. It gives you peace. His peace. And it feels good even when the rest of your world is shifting as you discover and remove more sand around you.
Peace,
Amonhi
Are you the one trying to blind with the craftiness of men? :-o

It has always seemed to me that there are those that continue to ask questions, and once given an answer wondering if they will get a different answer if they keep looking.

I have been answered on the restored Gospel, no need to keep asking.
Book of Mormon, no need to keep asking, I know it is true and of God.
This (TCOJCOLDS) is the Saviors True Church, it is being ran as HE directs! No need to question it!

The Savior taught the parable of the sower:

I want my faith planted in rich soil, not Stony ground!

Mark 4 : 1-20
And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great multitude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole multitude was by the sea on the land.
And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:
And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.
And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:
But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.
And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.
And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.
And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
¶The sower soweth the word.
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word’s sake, immediately they are offended.
And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.


So this is why I really do not get why so many "ask" and "question" the doctrines that have been given in these later days.
It seems that too many are caught up with the "deeper things" and lose their faith altogether.

The Gospel, Book of Mormon, and The Savior's Church are right or they are not.
Ask and it shall be given to you, and when you receive it treat it as the greatest gift you have!

Why continue to question it? (and all the trivial details)

Instead bring forth good fruit! Share the truth with everyone!

zionminded
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by zionminded »

Sarah wrote:
zionminded wrote:
AI2.0 wrote:
zionminded wrote:
Missionaries actually teach those who have not been baptized can be shown truth, see Moroni 10:5.

If you reject truth you lose the spirit? Does this include church leaders who have rejected truths in the past? I'm not sure rejecting truth results in a loss of the companionship of the H.G., but it certainly does result in consequences as you don't follow the promptings of the spirit.
What church leaders have rejected actual 'truths'? Are these 'truths' things that you believe to be true, or are they known teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, cause I'm pretty sure you're one of those on the forum who has their own view of what 'truth' is, and it's not in harmony with the teachings of the LDS church.

Sarah is right, if you reject truth you lose the spirit you even lose the truths that you had; this is what Alma warned about; Alma 12:9-11. Also, as a person rejects truth, they are more easily deceived by Satan and more easily drawn into temptation and sin.
The church taught that polygamy was required for salvation, then changed it, and made it an excommunicatable offense. During those years, did church leaders lose the spirit? What about when they taught that black men were not worthy to receive the priesthood because they made choices in the preexistence to make them not worth and they were born to race that was cursed? Did they lose the spirit during those years?

You lose the spirit, yes, when you turn away from truth, but when you turn back, you get it back quickly. God doesn't use "having the spirit" like a weapon against you, to punish you when you do something wrong, but he uses it as a way (strong way) to let you know when your off track. This is a long topic, that only those who have gone through a repentance process can know and understand.
This really comes down to a disagreement over "truth." Since I am convinced that what our leaders did in both instances was the Lord's will, then that makes me and every other believer suspect I guess of actually being born again, having gone through true repentance, and having the Holy Ghost as our companion. I get it. I do want to testify to you though that I do know what it feels like to be completely healed of sin and to become clean, in a miraculous way. Does that mean I am perfect right now? No, I am still striving to follow the promptings I receive from the Holy Ghost, and live according to the revelations I've received, and those revelations direct me to become more Christ-like, to throw off the natural man, and keep my temple covenants.
I admire you for creating a relationship to Christ and brining an understanding of the atonement into your life. That is the most important thing anybody can do. You'll find that truth is a moving target, so its a good idea to ground in Christ the most important factors of your spiritual progression.

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Matthew.B
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Matthew.B »

BTH&T wrote:The Gospel, Book of Mormon, and The Savior's Church are right or they are not.
The way you worded this brought a question to my mind: do you see all these things as interconnected? For example, do you think that if the LDS Church turned out to be false then, consequently, the Book of Mormon is not revealed scripture and the Gospel is a lie?
BTH&T wrote:Instead bring forth good fruit! Share the truth with everyone!
:ymapplause:

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote:I don't understand how some of you can quote from Latter-Day-Prophets to make your point, and then on the other hand claim they are keeping people from the truth. No consistency. Are they necessary in the Lord's work or are they not?
Sarah, You might as well be saying that we can only quote from people who are always 100% correct. Albert Einstein was a genius and understood a number of things, but he also error-ed. Should we never quote him? The leaders of the LDS Church teach what they believe to be true. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they aren't.

President Joseph Fielding Smith and Apostle Bruce R. McConkie both agreed that Brigham Yound taught damning heresies as church doctrine. Does that mean that they should never quote him? They also said that at other times, he taught saving truths from the pulpit
Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him. This, however, is not true. He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel. But, be it known, Brigham Young also taught accurately and correctly, the status and position of Adam in the eternal scheme of things. What I am saying is that Brigham Young, contradicted Brigham Young, and the issue becomes one of which Brigham Young we will believe. The answer is we will believe the expressions that accord with the teachings in the Standard Works.

Yes, Brigham Young did say some things about God progressing in knowledge and understanding, but again, be it known, that Brigham Young taught, emphatically and plainly, that God knows all things and has all power meaning in the infinite, eternal and ultimate and absolute sense of the word. Again, the issue is, which Brigham Young shall we believe and the answer is: We will take the one whose statements accord with what God has revealed in the Standard Works.

I think you can give me credit for having a knowledge of the quotations from Brigham Young relative to Adam, and of knowing what he taught under the subject that has become known as the Adam God Theory. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that Brigham Young will have to make his own explanations on the points there involved. I think you can also give me credit for knowing what Brigham Young said about God progressing. And again, that is something he will have to account for. As for me and my house, we will have the good sense to choose between the divergent teachings of the same man and come up with those that accord with what God has set forth in his eternal plan of salvation.

This puts me in mind of Paul's statement: "There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: "And all those who preach false doctrines, . . . wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!: (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us.
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, letter to Mr. Eugene England, February 19, 1981
Please note that Elder Bruce R. McConkie, who was VERY well studied, said that heresies must be taught among us and that sometimes those damning heresies will be taught by the Prophet of God. And as Brigham Young taught these heresies from the pulpit in the name of God and even threatened church discipline against apostle Orson Pratt for publicly disagreeing with President Young.

One thing you can do to determine if a person knows what they are talking about is look for experience. Have they done what you want to do? Are they speaking from a position of knowledge or theory? Would you take a class on Painting from someone who's never painted before.

For example, Brigham Young never saw Christ, (Received the Second Comforter). He said so on two occasions and hoped that one day he would be righteous enough to have the Lord dictate to him the management of his church.
Brigham Young was ordained president of the Church in December 1847. He had lead the church for about 12 years when he said the following:
“I have flattered myself, if I am as faithful as I know how to be to my God, and my brethren, and to all my covenants, and faithful in the discharge of my duty, when I have lived to be as old as was Moses when the Lord appeared to him, that perhaps I then may hold communion with the Lord, as did Moses. I am not now in that position, though I know much more than I did twenty, ten, or five years ago. But have I yet lived to the state of perfection that I can commune in person with the Father and the Son at my will and pleasure? No, - though I hold myself in readiness that he can wield me at his will and pleasure. If I am faithful until I am eighty years of age, perhaps the Lord will appear to me and personally dictate me in the management of his Church and people. A little over twenty years, and if I am faithful, perhaps I will obtain that favour with my Father and God.” - Journal of Discourses, 7:243. Brigham Young, September 1, 1859
About another 6 years later he said, (President of the Church for 17 years at the time of this statement.)
And what shall we say of our Heavenly Father? He is also a man in perfection, and the father of the man Jesus Christ, and the father of our spirits; He lives far above the influence and power of sin, and holds in his hands the destinies of all. We have not seen the person of the Father, neither have we seen that of the Son; but we have seen the children of the Father, and the brethren of the Savior, who are in every way like them in physical appearance and organization. Although mankind of the same color look alike, yet there exist expressions of the features by which one person can be distinguished from another. The human family all resemble one another in the main characteristics of humanity, and all resemble the Savior who died for us; and could we see him in the flesh, as he appeared to the ancients, we should very likely find that some men are more like him that others in feature and form, as we often see men who are more like Joseph Smith than others are. - Journal of Discourses, 11:42. Brigham Young, January 8, 1865
If he attempted to teach people how to have that experience, he would be considered the blind leading the blind. President Grant also never had that experience. He taught that we should not pray to have such experiences because his experience said that people who have visions and revelations and see Christ tend to fall away from the church... :-?
The following letter was written by President Heber J. Grant to his sister 13 April 1926. (Grant succeeded Joseph F. Smith as president of the LDS Church in November 1918. He had been the Prophet/president of the church for 8 years.)
Dear Sister:

Answering your letter of the 12th.

I know of no instance where the Lord has appeared to an individual since His appearance to the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Sincerely your brother,

[signed] Heber J. Grant
- Lester Bush’s papers at the UU
- http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/02/23/a ... ng-letter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Michael Quinn writes about President Grant’s guilt for not having had a vision of Christ and quotes Grant from a General Conference address in 1942, (nearly 24 years as President of the church); Quinn writes:
"I have never prayed to see the Savoior, … I have seen so many men fall because of some great manifestations to them.”
I could not find the entire address, but is it clear that President Grant indicates that having such great manifestations might cause us to fall. I beleive that he would have considered seeing an angel to be a great manifestation. Mormon taught,
35 And now, my beloved brethren, if this be the case that these things are true which I have spoken unto you, and God will show unto you, with power and great glory at the last day, that they are true, and if they are true has the day of miracles ceased?

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he withheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain. -Moro. 7:35-37
If you want the second Comforter, then President Grant might not be the guy to teach you how to get it. But if you want other experiences that he has had, then he would be the guy to learn from.

President Romney on the other hand did see and know Christ fairly well. He had received his calling and election sure and was able to teach others how to do it. He taught how it happens, and gave multiple examples of people receiving the promise detailing who was there, what was said, how it was done. He was speaking from personal experience. If you want those blessings, he is a great guy to learn from. And yet I still don't believe everything he said.

I see no issue quoting people when I agree with them and feel they know what they are talking about on a subject and disagreeing with them when I feel that they don't. I believe it is a logical fallacy to think that you can only quote people who are 100% correct, even on a subject they are familiar with.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote:
zionminded wrote:
Sarah wrote:If you repent, are baptized, have faith in Christ, and then receive the Holy Ghost, you will recognize truth when it is revealed to you, INCLUDING a witness of true prophets, further revelation, doctrines pertaining to the priesthood, new scripture, etc. Even if you have the Holy Ghost, if you choose to reject truth as it is taught to you, then you will loose the companionship of the Holy Ghost.
Missionaries actually teach those who have not been baptized can be shown truth, see Moroni 10:5.

If you reject truth you lose the spirit? Does this include church leaders who have rejected truths in the past? I'm not sure rejecting truth results in a loss of the companionship of the H.G., but it certainly does result in consequences as you don't follow the promptings of the spirit.
I didn't say people without the Gift of the Holy Ghost could not feel the Spirit testify of truth. I said that if you have the Spirit with you, you would recognize truth, including J.S. and all the doctrines he taught. You would gain a testimony of prophets today and their words, which I have. It comes down to what you believe the spirit is confirming as truth.
This is true, but only when those prophets speak truth. As pointed out in my previous post, we should not expect that prophets always speak truth. As Elder Bruce R. McConkie pointed out, sometimes they teach damning heresies. The Holy Ghost will help you to know when they speak truth and when they do not. (Or even truth to you at your state of progression and live circumstances which are unique.

Peace,
Amonhi

zionminded
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by zionminded »

I should add, that the Holy Ghost speaks different layers of truth, depending on where you are at. Layers, not differences.

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote:
Amonhi wrote:“Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them." 3Ne 11:39-40
Since the Holy Ghost is the final step and the "ONLY" rock to build on, which I don't disagree with, then has the Holy Ghost told you to reject Joseph Smith, because he sure taught a lot more than this simple message.
If I understand you correctly, you are not disagreeing with the scriptures or the doctrine of Christ as pointed out, but are trying to resolve how a person such as me can believe that and not reject Joseph Smith for teaching all sorts of other doctrines of the church. Is that correct.

Christ's gospel is clear. His doctrine is clear. If you want to know Christ's Doctrine, then you have it. But what of all the other doctrines of the Church? They are not Christ's doctrines. They are church doctrines. They may or may not be true. Church doctrine changes which is why we have phrases like, "current church doctrine" which tells us that it is newer than "past church doctrine". For example, past church doctrine says a lot about the church's views regarding blacks. Current church doctrine tells us that the past leaders and their doctrine were racist and false. If you believed everything taught by the prophets of the past, you would be considered an un-Christ like racist by the church today. In the future, our leaders teachings and policies today will be declared by the church to be uninspired bigotry.

The Holy Ghost witnesses of truth. Not based on who said it, but based on what was said. To accept the Holy Ghost, we accept what it teaches us through the power of the Holy Ghost. Everything that we learn by the Power of the Holy Ghost has been learned from God. Everything we learn from any other sorce is not learned from God or the way God intended.
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God. - D&C 50
If someone tells you that Christ's doctrine includes anything other than what Christ taught his doctrine is, then they don't know the doctrine and gospel of Christ and their teaches "cometh of evil". This doesn't mean that they are evil, just that they are learning. Just like you, and me, when we are wrong, we aren't evil, we are just teaching the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. When the prophets teach incorrect principles that don't lead us to God, it doesn't mean they are evil, only that they are learning, just like the rest of us. If Joseph Smith ever taught that the doctrine or gospel of Jesus Christ was something other than what Christ taught, then he would just be wrong, not evil, not uninspired, just wrong. There are a number of things I have discovered that he taught inconsistent with the scriptures. The gospel of Jesus Christ isn't one of them.

Teaching that we should build a temple is not inconsistent with the Gospel and doctrine of Jesus Christ. Teaching that we should "Follow the Prophet" is inconsistent with the Doctrine and gospel of Jesus Christ because their teachings do not always match up with the Holy Ghost. We should follow the spirit which teaches the words of Christ and is therefore following Christ because Christ, God and the spirit are one and testify of each other. The spirit does not always testify of the words of the prophets.

When we learn from the spirit, we are learning from God. Even when a prophet is speaking, we should be learning from the spirit. The speaker should be speaking by the Power of the Holy Ghost which carries the message to our own minds by the power of the Spirit and is received by us as a revelation from God through the power of the Holy Ghost. If we do not feel like we are having a revelation, then what is being spoken is not being spoken by the Power of the Holy Ghost and it is not of God.
2 Nephi 33:1
1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.
17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God.
19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God.
21 Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth?
22 Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together.
23 And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness. - D&C50
3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.
5 Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants. - 68:3-5
Often the question comes up, “How do we know if someone is speaking by the spirit of truth or the power of the Holy Ghost? President J. Reuben Clark addressed this in a talk entitled, “When Are the Writings and Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Scripture?” After reading D&C 68:3-5 (above) he said,
"The very words of the revelation recognize that the Brethren may speak when they are not “moved upon by the Holy Ghost”; yet only when they do speak as “moved upon” is what they say considered scripture. No exceptions are given to this rule or principle. It is universal in its application. The question is, how shall we know when the things they have spoken were said as they were “moved upon by the Holy Ghost”? I have given some thought to this question, and the answer thereto, so far as I can determine, is: We can tell when the speakers are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost” only when we, ourselves, are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost.” In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak." - When Are the Writings and Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Scripture?, Church News (31 July 1954)
Does that answer your question?

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote:
Amonhi wrote: So, if you receive truth by the prophet because of his position, then you are receiving truth by priesthood position and not of God.If you receive truth by manual, then it is not of God. Even if it is true, you are not receiving it by the means of the spirit of truth, (which is the voice of God), so you didn't receive it from God. If you rely on any means to determine truth beside the Holy Ghost, then you are not built on the rock and you will fall.
Sorry for so many posts. But Amonhi, you still didn't answer my question about Joseph Smith. You said it is okay to teach truth, but it is not okay to establish it as doctrine. So what I want to know is if you believe J.S. just taught numerous things as truth, and not as doctrine, or if you think he did teach things for doctrine, thus becoming a fallen prophet.
Specifically, it is not ok to teach doctrines and establish them as Christ's Doctrine. You can have church doctrine as long as you are not saying that it is Christ's doctrine. Christ has a very specific doctrine, nothing more or less than what he taught as his doctrine. Yet, he taught many things. He just didn't establish his other teachings as his doctrine or his gospel.

That didn't prevent him from teaching truth. Joseph Smith taught many truths and established doctrines of the church and taught the doctrines of Christ. The doctrines of Moses were different than the doctrines of Christ. The doctrines of ?X? are different than the doctrines of Christ. That doesn't mean they aren't true, just that they aren't Christ's doctrines or his gospel.

Does that help?

Peace,
Amonhi

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