How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

[AI2.0]

I have been answered on the restored Gospel, no need to keep asking.
Book of Mormon, no need to keep asking, I know it is true and of God.
This (TCOJCOLDS) is the Saviors True Church, it is being ran as HE directs! No need to question it!
...
Why continue to question it? (and all the trivial details)

Can you tell me what makes the church true?

Can you tell me what the restored gospel is?

Peace,
Amonhi

I'm curious Amonhi, did you serve a mission?

If so, think back to what you taught investigators and those things would be the answers to your questions.

[Sarah]

Amonhi, I think I do understand where you are coming from, and I think you did answer my question. You are content to sift J.S. through your personal feelings with the H.G. as you are with all the other priesthood leaders in the Church, along with anything they say. I won't argue against doing that, but realize that there might be a temptation to have an overly critical eye, and Satan can tempt you to REJECT something that he knows you already don't like or disagree with. That's why I really feel this conversation is mostly pointless, in that most all LDS will agree that one should have the Holy Ghost guide you into deciding what is right or wrong. There are those in the Church who are less spiritually mature than others, and so having leaders to follow is absolutely necessary and part of the Lord's plan. Nephi gives us the example of how his brothers cut themselves off from the Lord because they no longer heeded his, Nephi's words and the Lord led Nephi away from them. A12 is right in her post, in that we can't ever loose sight of the necessity of priesthood delegation and order in the Lord's church.

So we're back again to the question of whether or not the Lord is happy with his leaders right now, working with them, and what things they teach are okay and which are not. We might as well have that conversation. You gave the example of Brigham's statements on Adam and how McKonkie disavowed the statements, but did you notice that he said that Brigham also got it right in many of his statements regarding Adam vs. the Father? So what he is saying is that he doesn't know what Brigham exactly believed, it might be possible that some of his statements were not understood the way he meant it etc. So at least I believe that whatever Brigham believed, he still demonstrated in my mind that he was a prophet of God and led the people righteously.

Then we have the issues of temple worship, plural marriage, blacks and the priesthood, tithing, gay marriage policies, and perhaps things that people feel are uninspired and so they feel free to reject those things. I would just give a warning that you have to be careful what you reject. Joseph said,
“When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief.”

Perhaps we should just talk about the things you feel are okay to reject because the H.G. has told you it is okay to reject them. I know you don't like polygamy, and I'm sure there are other things too.

The issue about seeing Christ. I think you can throw out the second quote you gave from B.Y. It sounded to me that he was talking collectively. The first quote does make it sound like he never had a personal appearance. Perhaps not, but I know from personal experience that one can witness the person of Christ, and even feel his flesh, without a personal appearance. It is revealed through the Spirit. Perhaps this is what some of the brethren have experienced like myself. I really feel like these type of experiences happen for personal reasons and don't need to be discussed. You can still witness to others that you know that Christ lives. And regardless of that, the thing is, is that these men aren't REJECTING anything. That is the big question. You might argue that they are telling the saints to reject the notion that they should seek the face of the Savior, but I believe that is not their intent, just like it is not their intent to keep knowledge away from the Saints to warn them against going online to search for answers from unknown sources. They see what is happening to the flock and are trying to shepard the sheep towards the right source of info, which is found in personal revelation, and the words of God.

Now, in my personal experience, it has been revealed to me that the cleaner I am spiritually, the more opportunity I may have to commune with the spirit, including receiving personal revelation. The message should not be that we need to teach someone HOW to receive the Second Comforter, if that how involves some techniques employed while praying for example. The message should be that we teach people to come unto Christ through faith, repentance, and becoming clean and sanctified through the H.G. This is accomplished by keeping God's commandments and our covenants with Him. This is what I see our brethren teaching, and this is what I feel is what the Lord would have taught to his Church. Do we need to ask for the things we desire? Of course, but we also must be clean. We must be worthy. If you preach seeking to have your C & E, and you don't EMPHASIZE keeping the commandments, and following all of God's laws, (and that is what I think needs to be out in the open) then you are leaving out what is really necessary to have these experiences. If you can have all these personal appearances like you claim, without having to become CLEAN, then I would question not only the source of the experience, but the influence that was upon the messenger preaching that we need to seek this.

[AI2.0]

Excellent post Sarah, Thanks so much.

I wanted to emphasize this from your post:

Now, in my personal experience, it has been revealed to me that the cleaner I am spiritually, the more opportunity I may have to commune with the spirit, including receiving personal revelation. The message should not be that we need to teach someone HOW to receive the Second Comforter, if that how involves some techniques employed while praying for example. The message should be that we teach people to come unto Christ through faith, repentance, and becoming clean and sanctified through the H.G. This is accomplished by keeping God's commandments and our covenants with Him. This is what I see our brethren teaching, and this is what I feel is what the Lord would have taught to his Church. Do we need to ask for the things we desire? Of course, but we also must be clean. We must be worthy. If you preach seeking to have your C & E, and you don't EMPHASIZE keeping the commandments, and following all of God's laws, (and that is what I think needs to be out in the open) then you are leaving out what is really necessary to have these experiences. If you can have all these personal appearances like you claim, without having to become CLEAN, then I would question not only the source of the experience, but the influence that was upon the messenger preaching that we need to seek this.

I add my witness to yours, that I have more opportunity to commune with the spirit, receive revelation when I am living righteously ---working on being sanctified through following the teachings of the gospel and living the commandments.

It is a valid question to ask Amonhi, how much he lives the commandments and teachings of the LDS church. I believe that if he thinks he is now exempt from the admonitions of the prophets and the Savior to 'follow him' and 'endure to the end' by living the commandments and living a clean life, he should explain.

[Amonhi]

I have been answered on the restored Gospel, no need to keep asking.
Book of Mormon, no need to keep asking, I know it is true and of God.
This (TCOJCOLDS) is the Saviors True Church, it is being ran as HE directs! No need to question it!
...
Why continue to question it? (and all the trivial details)

Can you tell me what makes the church true?

Can you tell me what the restored gospel is?

Peace,
Amonhi

I'm curious Amonhi, did you serve a mission?

If so, think back to what you taught investigators and those things would be the answers to your questions.

Yes, I did. I know the answers, but my question was directed at BTH&T. Was Brigahm Yound a true prophet because he only taught truth? No. Was Jonah a true prophet because he had the mighty change of heart so that he hoped and prayed for the people to be repent and be saved? No. (He looked forward in anticipation for their destruction and was a bit miffed when they repented and he didn't get to watch their destruction.

What makes something "true". What makes a true prophet? What makes a "true" church?

The church is true, but why? President Monson is a true prophet, but why? Jonah was a true prophet, but why?

Peace,
Amonhi

[Mark]

Excellent post Sarah, Thanks so much.

I wanted to emphasize this from your post:

Now, in my personal experience, it has been revealed to me that the cleaner I am spiritually, the more opportunity I may have to commune with the spirit, including receiving personal revelation. The message should not be that we need to teach someone HOW to receive the Second Comforter, if that how involves some techniques employed while praying for example. The message should be that we teach people to come unto Christ through faith, repentance, and becoming clean and sanctified through the H.G. This is accomplished by keeping God's commandments and our covenants with Him. This is what I see our brethren teaching, and this is what I feel is what the Lord would have taught to his Church. Do we need to ask for the things we desire? Of course, but we also must be clean. We must be worthy. If you preach seeking to have your C & E, and you don't EMPHASIZE keeping the commandments, and following all of God's laws, (and that is what I think needs to be out in the open) then you are leaving out what is really necessary to have these experiences. If you can have all these personal appearances like you claim, without having to become CLEAN, then I would question not only the source of the experience, but the influence that was upon the messenger preaching that we need to seek this.

I add my witness to yours, that I have more opportunity to commune with the spirit, receive revelation when I am living righteously ---working on being sanctified through following the teachings of the gospel and living the commandments.

It is a valid question to ask Amonhi, how much he lives the commandments and teachings of the LDS church. I believe that if he thinks he is now exempt from the admonitions of the prophets and the Savior to 'follow him' and 'endure to the end' by living the commandments and living a clean life, he should explain.

ding ding ding ding ding. winner winner chicken dinner. This is such a critical part of this whole spiritual progression process. It is also a part that I have heard very little of from all the people like Amonhi who seem to make receiving the Savior and having ones calling and election made sure into some kind of competitive race for bragging rights. Here is an excellent article concerning these sacred privileges and opportunities that come as a result of living a consecrated and sanctified life through obedience and sacrifice.

From the Prophet Joseph Smith we learn that the faith necessary to become sanctified and make one’s calling and election sure is gained through strict obedience to the law of sacrifice:

“From the first existence of man, the faith necessary unto the enjoyment of life and salvation never could be obtained without the sacrifice of all earthly things. It was through this sacrifice, and this only, that God has ordained that men should enjoy eternal life; and it is through the medium of the sacrifice of all earthly things that men do actually know that they are doing the things that are well pleasing in the sight of God. When a man has offered in sacrifice all that he has for the truth’s sake, not even withholding his life, and believing before God that he has been called to make this sacrifice because he seeks to do his will, he does know, most assuredly, that God does and will accept his sacrifice and offering, and that he has not, nor will not seek his face in vain. Under these circumstances, then, he can obtain the faith necessary for him to lay hold on eternal life.” (Lectures on Faith, 6:58; see also D&C 98:11–15 and Teachings, p. 322.)

When faith is sufficient to sacrifice all earthly things, even life itself if necessary, it is possible for a person to know that he is accepted of the Lord for what he has done, and with this strong faith he may eventually receive eternal life.

Thus the Prophet Joseph said:

“After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and is baptized for the remission of his sins and receives the Holy Ghost, (by the laying on of hands), which is the first Comforter, then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness, and living by every word of God, and the Lord will soon say unto him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. When the Lord has thoroughly proved him, and finds that the man is determined to serve Him at all hazards, then the man will find his calling and his election made sure.” (Teachings, p. 150.)

Such a person eventually receives godhood and becomes a member of the “church of the Firstborn.” (D&C 76:54.)

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/07/acce ... e?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AI2.0]

My Responses in blue:

I have been answered on the restored Gospel, no need to keep asking.
Book of Mormon, no need to keep asking, I know it is true and of God.
This (TCOJCOLDS) is the Saviors True Church, it is being ran as HE directs! No need to question it!
...
Why continue to question it? (and all the trivial details)

Can you tell me what makes the church true?

Can you tell me what the restored gospel is?

Peace,
Amonhi

I'm curious Amonhi, did you serve a mission?

If so, think back to what you taught investigators and those things would be the answers to your questions.

Yes, I did. I know the answers, but my question was directed at BTH&T.Yes, does that mean I can't comment? Was Brigahm Yound a true prophet because he only taught truth? No.This is something you do. No one said this, because I don't think anyone is insisting that he only taught truth. Was Jonah a true prophet because he had the mighty change of heart so that he hoped and prayed for the people to be repent and be saved? No. (He looked forward in anticipation for their destruction and was a bit miffed when they repented and he didn't get to watch their destruction.I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, other than to once again try to undermine prophets by pointing out their weaknesses. LDS don't believe that prophets are perfect. We believe they are fallible men and women who may not always be right, but they are 'true' prophets if they are called by God.

What makes something "true". What makes a true prophet? What makes a "true" church?

The church is true, but why? President Monson is a true prophet, but why? Jonah was a true prophet, but why?The church is true because Jesus said it was. See D&C 1:30. Pres. Monson is a true prophet because he leads the Lord's true church. Joseph Smith was told that the Bible (as long as it is translated correctly) is the word of God, therefore, Jonah was one of God's prophets per the 8th Article of Faith.

Peace,
Amonhi

You know the answers, but you love to put others on the spot, getting them to spin their wheels, that way you can deflect attention from you and then you can catch them in something they've said that you can use to steer the conversation to what you want to discuss and thus control the narrative. You love to take us down these winding rabbit holes.

I would like to know if, as a member of the 144,000 etc., are you no longer required to live what you call the 'lower laws'--what the rest of us call the commandments, teachings and principles and ordinances of the gospel?

Do you believe that you are no longer being tested as part of the moral probation?

[BTH&T]

Sometimes, when we experiment and search and try our faith, it is proven wrong, refined or changed entirely. It can be difficult for us. This thread was somewhat difficult for me as I lost a number of beliefs that I had previously held. But, I am built on the rock and therefore remain unshaken. In the end, I learned a TON about where we were and how we came to be here now. I think about 60% on the information from the OP to page 3 or so was new to me, and I didn't even write all of what I had learned. I lost a significant amount of faith in false things as well. Glad to let it go. False faith won't save anyone. It is blinding.

Are you the one trying to blind with the craftiness of men?

It has always seemed to me that there are those that continue to ask questions, and once given an answer wondering if they will get a different answer if they keep looking.

I have been answered on the restored Gospel, no need to keep asking.
Book of Mormon, no need to keep asking, I know it is true and of God.
This (TCOJCOLDS) is the Saviors True Church, it is being ran as HE directs! No need to question it!

If you lived under Moses and prayed to know if he was doing God's will. You might get an answer saying yes. Then you might see him his a rock with his staff and think how amazing he was and assume that he was doing what God wanted him to do and you would be trusting in a previous revelation and not realize that he was displeasing God. Then if you lived till Christ's time and assumed that your previous revelation and witness that Moses was the prophet and doing the lord's will was valid reason for accepting the current leaders of the church and that they were doing God's will in killing Christ, you would be sorely mistaken. Revelation is valid when you receive it and over what you received. The idea that the Book of Mormon is true and so the Church is true is not logical or that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and so every other leader of the church is a true prophet doing God's will is like claiming that the Sanhedrin that killed Christ were true because Moses was a true prophet and gave us 5 books in the bible. The logic is flawed because change is inevitable.

The Apostles that were excommunicated for living adultery for many years were acting as apostles. Calling people, and filling the position. Did they have the spirit during those years? Did God give them his spirit while they were sleeping with harlots? Were those being called by them being called by revelation?

To say that the church is true or that leaders are true doesn't tell us much. Jonah was a true prophet too. But we know his character flaws.

Why ask again? Because people and circumstances change. Why sustain them again? Because people and circumstances change. Not everything Joseph Smith did was inspired or of God. We need to learn to recognized when they are and when they are not, through the spirit. Blanket Statements and blanket revelations are helpful for the lower levels, but we will not become advanced in the spirit through such statements. And we will certainly be led astray from God if we rely on blanket statements or even our own past revelation.

So this is why I really do not get why so many "ask" and "question" the doctrines that have been given in these later days.
It seems that too many are caught up with the "deeper things" and lose their faith altogether.

It is funny how those who start entertaining angels and Gods tend to see errors in the church, I wonder why?

The Gospel, Book of Mormon, and The Savior's Church are right or they are not.

The Book of Mormon might be the most correct book, but it is not perfectly correct. The Church might be Christ's church, but it not everything it does is Christ's doing/will. The Prophet might be a prophet of God, but everything he says and does is not inspired by God.

Why continue to question it? (and all the trivial details)

Because we aren't perfect and things change.

Peace,
Amonhi

I see little benefit in debating trivial things as you seem to do well. I will give my thoughts for what they are worth.

The answer I would give to most of your questions/come backs would be;
So What, it doesn't get me closer to where I am supposed to be, which is what we each should be working towards. I am given the truth and knowledge I need, when I need it, for the things that are needed (amazing how that works!)

I really am not trying to offend you or others, but seeking the things that many do here (deeper things) IMO draws the wrong spirit! I do not fill uplifted nor educated on discussing the "higher laws/deeper things". Sacred things should be treated more reverently!
Simple, humble acts and words teach so much more in my experience.

[BTH&T]

The Gospel, Book of Mormon, and The Savior's Church are right or they are not.

The way you worded this brought a question to my mind: do you see all these things as interconnected? For example, do you think that if the LDS Church turned out to be false then, consequently, the Book of Mormon is not revealed scripture and the Gospel is a lie?

Simple answer, absolutely!

I am working on a thread to explain more of my thoughts and reasoning's.
We are told everything is connected, all things are spiritual.
The Lord has set up this world and our lives to be beautiful and have our burdens light.
Unfortunately we as a people chose darkness and pain more often than not.
I often say "Things are simple, just not easy!"

[Matthew.B]

The Gospel, Book of Mormon, and The Savior's Church are right or they are not.

The way you worded this brought a question to my mind: do you see all these things as interconnected? For example, do you think that if the LDS Church turned out to be false then, consequently, the Book of Mormon is not revealed scripture and the Gospel is a lie?

Simple answer, absolutely!

I am working on a thread to explain more of my thoughts and reasoning's.
We are told everything is connected, all things are spiritual.
The Lord has set up this world and our lives to be beautiful and have our burdens light.
Unfortunately we as a people chose darkness and pain more often than not.
I often say "Things are simple, just not easy!"

Would you mind sending me a message when you get that thread written? I'd like to read your thoughts on the matter. Thanks!

[Amonhi]

I disagree with this too. Our progression is not limited to what others have accomplished or learned before us. We are each able to be prophets and learn anything we want by revelation. New information that was not known before. There are countless examples of this including the revelation received by President Lorenzo Snow, "As man is God once was. As God is, man may become." Or the doctrine of Heavenly mother that was revealed by Eliza R. Snow. There are all sorts of things that I have learned by revelation that I have no other source for. That's why it is called revelation.

Hmmm....I could be wrong, but I believe that in both these examples, the person said they learned these truths from the prophet, Joseph Smith Jr. so they don't support your assertion.

Regarding "As God is, Man Once was..." revealed by President Lorenzo Snow.

President Snow often referred to this couplet as having been revealed to him by inspirationduring the Nauvoo period of the church . See, for example, Deseret Weekly, 3 November 1894, 610; Deseret Weekly, 8 October 1898, 513; Deseret News, 15 June 1901, 177; and Journal History of the Church, - Wikipedia - Lorenzo Snow

It was revealed to him personally and he kept it until he was the Prophet/President of the Church and he gave it and taught it to the church many times. He did not credit Joseph Smith for the information, but revelation to him personally. It was revealed to him during the Nauvoo period of the church which was 1838–1846. He wasn't a Prophet, an Apostle or even an assistant to them. He was born in 1814, so he would have been between 24 to 32 years old when he had this revelation.

The Doctrine of Heavenly mother might have been taught by Joseph Smith in private, so it is hard to say for certain. It was revealed to the church in general via a poem written by Eliza R. Snow which she published in the newspaper entitled, "Invocation, or the Eternal Father and Mother" which is now in our hymn book called "O My Father" and is a prayer to both heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. Some of the Saints were furious with her for it and told Brigham Young, "Get control of your wife and correct her". To which he replied, "Who am I to silence the prophetess?" (Quotes close, not exact.)

Some early Mormons considered Snow to be a "prophetess".[10] Later, church president Joseph F. Smith (a nephew of Joseph Smith) explained his own belief that "God revealed that principle that we have a mother as well as a father in heaven to Joseph Smith; Joseph Smith revealed it to Eliza Snow Smith, his wife; and Eliza Snow was inspired, being a poet, to put it into verse." - Wikipedia - Heavenly Mother (Mormonism)

Regardless, we can have anything reveled to us whether or not it has been revealed before by another prophet. There are no limits to what we can learn and we are not bound to learn and progress only as far as our leaders.

And, of course, the fact is, the Lord expects us to listen to his Prophets and learn from them, not reject them--why would he have called Joseph Smith Jr. in the first place if all he wanted was for each of us to be our own prophets?

A prophet is someone who has learned of Christ by revelation through the Holy Ghost. They share their testimony so that others can have a reason to believe and then seek and find for themselves and also become prophets by learning through their own revelation and gain their own testimony of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost. Having a testimony of Jesus Christ through the Holy Ghost makes you a prophet because you have received revelation through the Holy Ghost about one thing, but you are now enabled to receive revelation through the Holy Ghost about all things. Because every member of this church should have a testimony of Jesus Christ by the spirit of revelation PRIOR to becoming a member, we should all be prophets before joining the church. This is supposed to be a church of Prophets and our regular church classes are supposed to be the school of the prophets. This is what Joseph Smith taught:

(We listen to prophets and gain faith. Prophets might include missionaries, or friends, or internet nuts or anyone who is bearing testimony of Jesus Christ or other principles by the spirit of prophecy. If they are acting as prophets, then they are speaking with the spirit of Prophecy and revelation) Here is how Joseph Taught it: "Faith comes by hearing the word of god, through the testimony of the servants of God; that testimony is always attended by the Spirit of prophecy and revelation." - ToTPJS, Section Three 1838-39, p.148

(Common Questions and answers answered by Joseph Smith)
"Fifth--"Do you believe Joseph Smith, Jun., to be a Prophet?"
"Yes, and every other man who has the testimony of Jesus. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.--Revelation, 19:10th verse." - Section Three 1838-39, p.119

(Joseph Speaking to the church - His words apply to him and each member of the church and tell us that we can't be a true teacher in the church, a missionary or even a witness of any principle (Fast and Testimony meeting comes to mind as people get up and bear their witness of things), unless you are a prophet, or you are a false teacher, witness and impostor.)
"What Constitutes a Prophet? - If any person should ask me if I were a prophet, I should not deny it, as that would give me the lie; for, according to John, the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy; therefore, if I profess to be a witness or teacher, and have not the spirit of prophecy, which is the testimony of Jesus, I must be a false witness; but if I be a true teacher and witness, I must possess the spirit of prophecy, and that constitutes a prophet; and any man who says he is a teacher or a preacher of righteousness, and denies the spirit of prophecy, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; and by this key false teachers and impostors may be detected. (Dec. 30, 1842.) DHC 5:215-216."Section Five 1842-43, p.269

(Joseph taught that we can't be saved without being a prophet, and we minister to others without being a prophet.)
"Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. Whenever salvation has been administered, it has been by testimony. Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this." - Section Four 1839-42, p.160

(He taught this principle many times and in many ways and applied it to other churches saying that they condemn themselves by not accepting themselves to be prophets.)
"Many of the sects cry out, "Oh, I have the testimony of Jesus; I have the spirit of God; but away with Joe Smith; he says he is a prophet; but there are to be no prophets or revelators in the last days." Stop, sir! The Revelator says that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy; so by your own mouth you are condemned." - Section Six 1843-44, p.312

This same principle applies to every member of the church. They are either prophets because they have received the revelation of Jesus Christ through the Holy Ghost and thereby have actually experienced the spirit of prophecy which is able to teach you all things, OR they are liars, impostors and condemned.

I like to add an ignorance option saying that they have been taught and therefore blinded by the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. So, while Joseph's words would call most members of the church today impostors, liars and condemned, I say that due to their ignorance of the doctrine, they are acting as prophets without knowing it. However, if they are teaching in their classes without the spirit of prophecy, via the Holy Ghost, then they are impostors and not acting for God.

13 Wherefore, I the Lord ask you this question—unto what were ye ordained?
14 To preach my gospel by the Spirit, even the Comforter which was sent forth to teach the truth.
...
17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God. - D&C 50

And of course this message is repeated by other prophets like or friend Moses:

27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them! - Numb. 11

And we see the Lord talking about those young missionaries we sent out...mere 18 year old boys and 19 year old girls can speak by the spirit and have all the power, effectiveness and authority of the President of the church, (when he is speaking by the spirit too).

2 And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—
3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.
5 Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants. - D&C 68

These young people (when they are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost), are called servants of the Lord... and we know what the lord says regarding his servants:

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen. - D&C 1

Whether by his own voice, (the spirit), or the voice of his servants, (speaking by the spirit), it is the same, because the voice is the spirit and when someone speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost, that spirit carries it to the heart of the hearer and the hearer receives it by personal revelation through the spirit.

I have just given you multiple witnesses of this doctrine that every member of the church, before they join should be a prophet by having the spirit of prophecy and revelation witness to them that Jesus is the Christ. You are no longer ignorant of it. There are many more such scriptures and references which few can see because of their "observation bias". You can chose to get a testimony of this teaching by the spirit, or not. But if you chose to not believe it, then either Joseph's words condemn you as a liar, an impostor and a false teacher or you must claim that he and all the other prophets in scripture error-ed on this point and taught falsely.

In summary of this point, A prophet is called to teach others to be prophets like themselves. That is what makes Jonah a prophet, Brigham Young a prophet, Joseph Smith a prophet and all of the men who lead this church. The difference between them and us members is that their calling as a prophet is to fill a position that governs the over all direction of the church, we as prophets are called to fill positions that govern stakes, wards, elders quorums, relief societies and other positions. There are many prophets in the church without callings greater than Home and visiting teacher. You have heard it said, "every member a missionary", but now I am asking you to believe Joseph and the other as accept, "Every member a prophet.

Why not just let the Holy Ghost teach each us of that, when we are ready to learn it? Why go through the waste of setting up a church and giving us scriptures, if we can just learn all we need to know through the Holy Ghost directly?

We each learn different things by revelation based on our life experience and needs. By sharing what we have learned individually by the spirit, we increase our collective knowledge and progress many times faster than we could have individually. This is the purpose of Fast and Testimony meeting.

It is not logical to believe that a 'religion' that believes in ONLY an individual person's revelatory power, would have grown out of a faith that was headed by a Prophet.

I think it is, when you know the Goal. God wants equals at every level. It is not right for one person to be above another. It is not right for one person to be dependent on another. God wants to make God's of us and you struggle to allow him to make prophets of us.

Believing in a Prophet to lead his church, does not contradict a belief in personal revelation.

Of course I agree. And being prophets doesn't mean we don't need a prophet to lead the church either, or that we can't learn from other prophets. That would be like saying a ward full of released Bishops doesn't need a new bishop to lead the ward. We need people to fill callings. The apostles aren't called because they are the only ones who could fill the calling. The prophet isn't the President of the church isn't called because he is the only one who can fill the calling. Having personal revelation doesn't mean that we don't need someone to run the affairs of the church and be inspired in their calling.

Of course we should receive revelation, but we don't throw out a prophet at the head of the his church, and receive the revelations which come to us as a whole. Both are needed and have their place in the LDS faith.

Agreed. Each member being a prophet does not change that fact. Even when every member of the church has personally seen God and Christ, the LDS Church will still need organization, callings, and structure to fulfill its work.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

What happens when many people reject the gospel or any principle or doctrine is that they don't ask questions.

What happens to those that have accepted it but then go beyond the mark is that they assume answers for themselves instead of going to God.

In both cases they trust the arm of flesh over God.

Thank you. This was a very wise response!

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Key
Black = Amonhi
Red = Amonhi highlighting
Green = Amonhi (comments and cross references in the scriptures)
Blue = A12.0

The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Lower low fulfilled by receiving the baptism of Fire and the the gift of the Holy Ghost. Jesus goes so far as to say anything more of less than this cometh of evil.

He said that about the Doctrine of Christ. You have claimed the two are the same, but the LDS church does not.

If the church does not, then it does not teach us how to receive Christ and it is not his Church:

5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom. - D&C 39:6

Would you like to argue it our with the Lord and tell him what his gospel is and is not?

Or would you like to show me what Moroni was talking about when he said,

34 He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants; - JSH 1

Where in the book of Mormon can we find "the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants"?

You refuse to accept it because you think the doctrine of Christ which is the only doctrine he has authorized is not the same as his gospel, and yet you have been given many references from myself and Contemplator showing that the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the D&C is the same as the only doctrine of Christ as taught in the Book of Mormon. Do a word search for "gospel" and you will find that the first time Christ talks about his gospel in 3 Nephi 27 after the people had repented and were baptized and received the holy Ghost. What he says is oddly appropriate for this conversation and the fact that you are saying the LDS Church doesn't teach what Christ taught many times. You will notice that it is an exact repeat of his doctrine given many times before and as spelled out in the D&C reference above: Here is what he says,

8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

9 Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;

10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.

11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.

12 For their works do follow them, for it is because of their works that they are hewn down; therefore remember the things that I have told you.

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel (already, past tense... He called it his Doctrine), and this is the gospel which I have given unto you (I know you have accepted it and are living it, but I am going to tell you one more time so that those reading it in the future who don't know what it is and haven't accepted it the first 20 times I gave it in plainness might accept it this time because I am calling it my Gospel instead of my doctrine.)—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross (atonement which is the foundational requirement so we can repent and receive a remission of our sins); and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—(Motivation for repentance and Baptism)

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end(Endure to the end of our probation by following the spirit - references not included here), behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do; - 3 Nephi 27

That matches up to what Christ taught before multiple times throughout his visit. He left in the next chapter. That was the only time he used the word "gospel" in his entire visit and it matches with the D&C

How much more clear and plain can he get than this:

5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom. - D&C 39

If the church does not teach the gospel of Jesus Christ and build on that, then it isn't his church as this was the second criteria he gave for his church.

if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel. - 3 Nephi 27:8

I happen to think that the LDS Church is and that the members of the church don't know what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is because they don't read the scriptures that tell them.

2 Behold, I have manifested unto you, by my Spirit in many instances, that the things which you have written are true; wherefore you know that they are true.
3 And if you know that they are true, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that you rely upon the things which are written;
4 For in them are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock.
5 Wherefore, if you shall build up my church, upon the foundation of my gospel and my rock, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you. - D&C 18

This doctrine is everywhere! Deny not the spirit of revelation and prophecy in YOU through the Holy Ghost!

Build upon my rock, which is my gospel; Deny not the spirit of revelation, nor the spirit of prophecy, for wo unto him that denieth these things; - D&C 11:24-25

How many times and ways does he have to say it before you can accept it?

11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.
12 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved;
13 And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you. - D&C 33

and again...

18 And inasmuch as they do repent and receive the fulness of my gospel, and become sanctified,(We are "sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost" - 3 Ne27:20, Romans 15:16, Alma 13:12), I will stay mine hand in judgment. - D&C 39

If you will not accept it from the many scriptures given, then you will not accept it from me. But here is one more reference that ties the doctrine of Christ to the gospel of Christ:

59 I am he who said—Other sheep have I which are not of this fold—unto my disciples, and many there were that understood me not.
60 And I will show unto this people that I had other sheep, and that they were a branch of the house of Jacob;
61 And I will bring to light their marvelous works, which they did in my name; (The Book of Mormon)
62 Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them, and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.
63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them. - D&C 27

The connection between the only doctrine of Christ and his gospel and clear and only those who refuse to see it can't see it. In one instance, he says, "this is my doctrine: repentance, baptism and then comes fire and the holy Ghost" in another instance he says, "This is my gospel: repentance, baptism and then comes fire and the Holy Ghost".

The fulness of his gospel does not include temples, endowments, sealings, tithing, and anything else, just fulfilling the lower law and getting the spirit.

To the LDS church, it does. The Fullness of the Gospel does include all these things.

Do you still, (after all these references), deny it? Do you believe Moroni lies or was misinformed when he said, "the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;" (JSH 1:34). If not, can you please show where in the Book of Mormon this information is found in which the Savior teaches about temples, endowments, sealings and the other doctrines you consider to be part of his gospel?

Do you think that all the references given above in which Jesus says, "This is my gospel" are incomplete and wrong? Maybe he forgot to add the other points? (How do you justify him not teaching the gospel you believe in?)

Does the Lord not know what the fulness of the everlasting Gospel is when he said, "Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel", (D&C 27:5).

In the book, "The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" by Elliaison, they explain that it is the fulness of the Gospel because the Holy Ghost will teach and guide to to do everything else that is right, good and of God. So, having the Holy Ghost as your guide is to have the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

This is not correct if one is a believing member of the LDS church, your Elliaison group are teaching things not in harmony with the LDS church.

Then the scriptures do not believe in the LDS Church either because they say exactly what Elliaison says,

5 And verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth my gospel receiveth me; and he that receiveth not my gospel receiveth not me.
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom. - D&C 39:6

My summary of what Elliaison teaches looks like an exact match to what the lord taught in this D&C reference... I think they are on good firm ground (ROCK hehehe).

I am really starting to think that you don't know what the church teaches because my confirmation bias prevents me from thinking the LDS Church is adding to or taking away from the doctrine and gospel of Jesus Christ. I know that members of the church in general don't know what it is, but I sure hope that the church and leaders do. Can you give any references from the prophets that contradict the Lord and say that the gospel is something other than what he taught so many times? Because the church believes the scriptures are the word of God (AoF 8), I think that the church does in fact teach this. There may be members and even leaders that don't, but until the church denies the scriptures, it believes them and the Lord said the scriptures are "the law to the church."

Doctrine and Covenants 42:59
59 Thou shalt take the things which thou hast received, which have been given unto thee in my scriptures for a law, to be my law to govern my church;

As of yet, we have your word saying that the church teaches another gospel or a different version of the gospel that includes a lot more and my many references saying that it doesn't. Can you back up you claim with anything? Canonized Scripture or modern prophet?

I will add a warning that Paul gave,

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. - Gal. 1

Peace
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Amonhi, ...
Another question, do you also claim the 'fullness of the gospel' is not found in the Book of Mormon?

I claim that it IS found in the Book of Mormon, multiple times and specifically taught by Jesus Christ multiple times in which he calls it both his doctrine and his gospel and it is also backed up by the many times in the D&C that he calls it his doctrine or his Gospel as quoted in my previous posts.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Amonhi, I think I'm understanding what you and some of the 'Elliaison' members believe. You think that living the covenants and laws of the church, the commandments, etc. are 'the lower law'--that when a person gets to the point that you are at(being a member of the firstborn, 144,000, second comforter), then they are no longer bound by the 'lower law' and don't need to live these teachings. And so, you don't need Prophets either, because you are your own prophets. Is this an accurate assessment of what you believe?

Can you give me a SHORT answer....a yes or no would be great. ;)

I will responded in a new thread called, Amonhi History 103

Peace,
Amonhi

[AI2.0]

Amonhi, ...
Another question, do you also claim the 'fullness of the gospel' is not found in the Book of Mormon?

I claim that it IS found in the Book of Mormon, multiple times and specifically taught by Jesus Christ multiple times in which he calls it both his doctrine and his gospel and it is also backed up by the many times in the D&C that he calls it his doctrine or his Gospel as quoted in my previous posts.

Peace,
Amonhi

I read your verrrrrrry looooooong post above (really, do you think you can try to give more concise responses please?) and I'm thinking that you don't know what I'm saying and maybe I don't know what you're trying to say.... So, I'm going to restate my position.

I believe what Moroni said and what Joseph Smith said in the introduction to the BofM, that the 'fulness of the gospel' is contained in the Book of Mormon. I think where we disagree may be in what exactly what comprises the 'fulness'.

I believe that the 'fulness' is the doctrine of Christ as well as references to the temple ordinances etc. Now, am I correct in thinking that you 'believe the fulness is found in the BofM, but that this does not include things like temple ordinances? If so, then this is where we disagree.

I agree with Daniel Peterson--this article by him very eloquently explains what I haven't seemed to be able to communicate properly as to my position on this topic:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... tml?pg=all

From the article:

But here’s another way of looking at the question of how, or whether, the Book of Mormon contains the “fulness” of the gospel:

In several carefully reasoned articles, Noel B. Reynolds (who is currently serving as a mission president) has shown that the word “gospel,” as the term is used in the Book of Mormon, refers to the means by which a person comes unto Christ and is saved. In its most basic Book of Mormon sense, the word doesn’t refer to all of the ordinances and all of the specific doctrines held by the Latter-day Saints, but, rather, represents a six-point formula including repentance, baptism, the Holy Ghost, faith, enduring to the end and eternal life. These teachings are clearly — one might well say “fully” — laid out in the Book of Mormon.

Furthermore, there’s no need for the Book of Mormon to enumerate each uniquely Latter-day Saint doctrine because the Nephite record itself repeatedly teaches that, after the believer has come to Jesus Christ and received the Holy Ghost, important further revelations will follow. The Book of Mormon consistently points beyond itself to things that weren’t “lawful” for its authors to write or to utter, thus teaching us that there are other doctrines not contained within its pages but implicitly embraced within a life lived according to the gospel.If all of the detailed doctrines and practices of the Restoration had already come neatly shrink-wrapped in 1830 within the Book of Mormon, there would have been no need for Joseph Smith, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price or the prophets who have come since 1844.

[boo]

Let me be sure that I understand what is going on here. Amonhi gives us a long list of scriptures showing that the gospel of Christ is the same thing as the Doctrine of Christ and those scriptures say that these simple principles represent the " fullness " of the gospel. You respond by quoting Dan Peterson as authority for an opposing view. If I understand correctly all I can say is you lose. I am generally familiar with the word of God as contained in the scriptures and I know Dan personally and have had him in my house for dinner. Follow the voice of God . Don't follow Dan.. Ps if we each sought truly for the fullness of the gospel Dan's ironic comment would be correct. We would not need additional Aid because we would obtain all we needed as Nephi said by following the Spirit until the Savior manifested himself to us in the flesh 1 Nephi 32:5 and 6

[Amonhi]

Amonhi, ...
Another question, do you also claim the 'fullness of the gospel' is not found in the Book of Mormon?

I claim that it IS found in the Book of Mormon, multiple times and specifically taught by Jesus Christ multiple times in which he calls it both his doctrine and his gospel and it is also backed up by the many times in the D&C that he calls it his doctrine or his Gospel as quoted in my previous posts.

Peace,
Amonhi

I read your verrrrrrry looooooong post above (really, do you think you can try to give more concise responses please?) and I'm thinking that you don't know what I'm saying and maybe I don't know what you're trying to say.... So, I'm going to restate my position.

I believe what Moroni said and what Joseph Smith said in the introduction to the BofM, that the 'fulness of the gospel' is contained in the Book of Mormon. I think where we disagree may be in what exactly what comprises the 'fulness'.

I believe that the 'fulness' is the doctrine of Christ as well as references to the temple ordinances etc. Now, am I correct in thinking that you 'believe the fulness is found in the BofM, but that this does not include things like temple ordinances? If so, then this is where we disagree.

I agree with Daniel Peterson--this article by him very eloquently explains what I haven't seemed to be able to communicate properly as to my position on this topic:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8656 ... tml?pg=all

From the article:

But here’s another way of looking at the question of how, or whether, the Book of Mormon contains the “fulness” of the gospel:

In several carefully reasoned articles, Noel B. Reynolds (who is currently serving as a mission president) has shown that the word “gospel,” as the term is used in the Book of Mormon, refers to the means by which a person comes unto Christ and is saved. In its most basic Book of Mormon sense, the word doesn’t refer to all of the ordinances and all of the specific doctrines held by the Latter-day Saints, but, rather, represents a six-point formula including repentance, baptism, the Holy Ghost, faith, enduring to the end and eternal life. These teachings are clearly — one might well say “fully” — laid out in the Book of Mormon.

Furthermore, there’s no need for the Book of Mormon to enumerate each uniquely Latter-day Saint doctrine At least he isn't confusing the doctrines of the Latter-day Saints with the doctrines of Christ.)because the Nephite record itself repeatedly teaches that, after the believer has come to Jesus Christ and received the Holy Ghost, important further revelations will follow. The Book of Mormon consistently points beyond itself to things that weren’t “lawful” for its authors to write or to utter, thus teaching us that there are other doctrines not contained within its pages but implicitly embraced within a life lived according to the gospel.If all of the detailed doctrines and practices of the Restoration had already come neatly shrink-wrapped in 1830 within the Book of Mormon, there would have been no need for Joseph Smith, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price or the prophets who have come since 1844.

I see, maybe. Either he is saying the same thing Elliaison is saying (the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is repentance, baptism and God will baptize you in Fire and the Holy Ghost), or he is trying to say that while the book of Mormon does not contain the fulness of the gospel directly, or specifically, it insinuates that a number of mysterious unknown and un-detailed doctrines that are not found within the pages of the book would be reveled at some later time which would be the fulness of the Gospel. The problem with the latter view, (which I think is what he is really saying), is that we still don't have all of the doctrines and ordinances that will be revealed in the future. Our own Article of Faith says,

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God. - AoF 9

This means that the church currently does not have the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and that at some future time, the rest of the doctrines and ordinances of the church will be revealed, perhaps with the missing 2/3rds of the Book of Mormon and all those things that were not lawful to reveal. The Lord says that have treated lightly that which we have been given and that he won't give us more until we receive what we have been given.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written— - D&C 84

8 And now, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that when ye are assembled together ye shall instruct and edify each other, that ye may know how to act and direct my church, how to act upon the points of my law and commandments, which I have given.
9 And thus ye shall become instructed in the law of my church, and be sanctified by that which ye have received, and ye shall bind yourselves to act in all holiness before me—
10 That inasmuch as ye do this, glory shall be added to the kingdom which ye have received. Inasmuch as ye do it not, it shall be taken, even that which ye have received. - D&C 43

There is so much doctrine that has yet to be received by the church and so many other ordinances that we have not yet received... If you follow his line of logic, then you must assume that we already have everything and God has nothing more to reveal before we have the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am pretty sure that he is saying that "there are other doctrines not contained within its pages but implicitly embraced within... the gospel." In other words, he seems to be saying that the doctrines not contained within the pages of the Book of Mormon constitute the Fulness of the Gospel. Which means that the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is actually not found in the book of Mormon. It sounds to me like he is saying that the Book of Mormon does not contain the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Or this that it IS contained in the Book of Mormon, but not in its pages...

Sounds like twisting the scriptures to say what he wants them to say and attempting to make sense of all the doctrines and ordinances of the church as we have them today and the fact that they aren't found in the Book of Mormon nor taught by Jesus Christ to the ancient inhabitants as Moroni promised and the D&C reaffirmed. He is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole rather than recognizing that one is square and the other round.

....
"not found within its pages..." but still in the Book of Mormon... vicariously? =)) :))

At least he recognizes the problem and is trying to make up or find a solution.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Let me be sure that I understand what is going on here. Amonhi gives us a long list of scriptures showing that the gospel of Christ is the same thing as the Doctrine of Christ and those scriptures say that these simple principles represent the " fullness " of the gospel. You respond by quoting Dan Peterson as authority for an opposing view. If I understand correctly all I can say is you lose.

That's funny... Honestly though, my rules of engagement prevent me from discrediting a person because they hold no rank, position or relevance to me. He could have quoted a Pope for all I care. If the quote teaches sound doctrine then I am bound to accept it. In this case, when I consider it, I don't find it to be sound.

I am generally familiar with the word of God as contained in the scriptures and I know Dan personally and have had him in my house for dinner.

Oh, how fun! I would totally call him up and tell him his quote out ranked a number of contradicting scriptures. lol. That should start a fun conversation! (Depending on how well I knew him. ;) )

@A12.0,

Aside from the funny, I understand that you were using the quote to clearly express personal view that was not church doctrine, just your understanding of things. Can you find any quotes the represent the church view on this doctrine? As of yet, I still don't think that the church teaches your view of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. My experience tells me that many members don't know what it is, and so perhaps the church doesn't have an official, clear, well defined or well taught view of "the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ".

I recognizing that Jesus taught that his church will meet 2 criteria; 1) Be called by his name (The Church of Jesus Christ) and 2) be built on his gospel. That being the case, I would expect that the gospel of Jesus Christ would be the first of our core beliefs on which the church would be built, so I would be surprised if it didn't have an official stance that is easy to find. Like on the front page of the LDS.org website for example?

Peace,
Amonhi

[shadow]

Does the doctrine of Christ or the fullness of the gospel include work for the dead? I don't recall it in the Book of Mormon, but I do recall a certain "spirit of Elijah" that Joseph Smith spoke about, even had a visitation about it. Maybe nobody told Joseph Smith about it not being in the BoM?? Too bad some of you weren't there to correct him...

[Mark]

Does the doctrine of Christ or the fullness of the gospel include work for the dead? I don't recall it in the Book of Mormon, but I do recall a certain "spirit of Elijah" that Joseph Smith spoke about, even had a visitation about it. Maybe nobody told Joseph Smith about it not being in the BoM?? Too bad some of you weren't there to correct him...

Had Amonhi been alive during Josephs tenure as Prophet I have no doubt he would have tried to set Joseph straight on a number of things. 8-|

[boo]

Shadow and Mark I am reluctant to engage further about this issue and am reluctant to create any further contention about such a beautiful and precious doctrine . However in an attempt to spread peace I will briefly say a more things and then withdraw. The reason that the doctrine of Christ is the "fullness" is because all other principles ,concepts , practices and essential ordinances are subsumed within it. Look again at 2Nephi 32: 5 and 6 .If we actually receive our BoFHG we not only will speak with the tongues of angels but the HG will open our minds to the unspeakable mysteries of Godliness.Look at what happen to Joseph . Prior to receiving his BoFHG he had seen the Father and Son. He had visited with Moroni or Nephi countless times. He had translated large sections of the BofM . But after that day in May he suddenly could understand the scriptures in a manner in which they "never could obtain to previously ,nor even before thought of " JSH 1:74. He could prophesy marvelous things. It was following this gift that he became a true prophet and revelator. All his subsequent spiritual development was predicated on this. Likewise with us. The ordinances of the temple are significant. But if we haven't been baptized with water and the Spirit (John 3:5 ) going to the temple 10,000 times will avail us nothing. This is why the Savior said it doesn't make any difference if we have caste out Devils and worked many miracles in his name if we know him not we will be cast out .Matt7 :21-23. The way we know him is by following the Doctrine of Christ 2 Nephi 32:5. Everything else we spend our time on family history ,temple work , home teaching,, priesthood service and advancement is all for naught unless we have been born again and have the HG directing us daily in how we live and breathe and have our being.In my personal experience most members of the church have never had this happen to them.As Elder Bednar taught the fact someone puts his hand on our head and says "receive the Holy Ghost" is not sufficient .it is an invitation ,an admonition to do so but is not the reality. Like all ordinances it is symbolic of what may be not a present reality of what is. Are you prophesying ? Are you receiving revelations? Are you entertaing Angels? If not you are not availing yourselves of the blessings God pours out on those who truly have received the simple fullness. If you want to know what really receiving the BoFHG is look at Helman 5 and see what happened to those unbaptized Lamanites. Talk to my son who at age 18 received his after fasting and praying about it for months. He described it as his whole body was on fire and he thought initially he was having a heart attack. If you are unsure ask God. He will tell you if you have received of the fullness or not and if not what you must do to receive it. It isn't that the so called higher ordinances aren't important it is if you follow the doctrine of Christ and receive those supernal blessings all the rest will come to you in due time .If you have the "higher blessings" but failed to get the fullness all of those higher blessings will avail you nothing worlds w/o end. I know this is at variance with what is taught in GD .It is precisely however what the revelations of God and the only prophet of this dispensation who bore public witness of being ministered to on multiple occasions by the Savior taught.There is so much that we can enjoy if only we will.

[Amonhi]

Does the doctrine of Christ or the fullness of the gospel include work for the dead? I don't recall it in the Book of Mormon, but I do recall a certain "spirit of Elijah" that Joseph Smith spoke about, even had a visitation about it. Maybe nobody told Joseph Smith about it not being in the BoM?? Too bad some of you weren't there to correct him...

What do you think the fulness of testimony gospel of Jesus Christ is?

Do you think the Book of Mormon contains the the fulness of Christ's gospel as taught by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants?

How do you resolve the challenge?

I get the idea that you somehow assume that because certain doctrines and ordinances are not part of the fulness of Christ's gospel, I am saying they shouldn't be taught or the church is in some error or other?

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Does the doctrine of Christ or the fullness of the gospel include work for the dead? I don't recall it in the Book of Mormon, but I do recall a certain "spirit of Elijah" that Joseph Smith spoke about, even had a visitation about it. Maybe nobody told Joseph Smith about it not being in the BoM?? Too bad some of you weren't there to correct him...

Had Amonhi been alive during Josephs tenure as Prophet I have no doubt he would have tried to set Joseph straight on a number of things. 8-|

I am sure we would have had some interesting discussions for sure...

Is a prophet beyond correction or incapable of admitting when he is wrong? I wonder?

Are you a prophet or a false teacher and an imposter? (Based on Joseph Smith’s own words?)



Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Shadow and Mark I am reluctant to engage further about this issue and am reluctant to create any further contention about such a beautiful and precious doctrine . However in an attempt to spread peace I will briefly say a more things and then withdraw. The reason that the doctrine of Christ is the "fullness" is because all other principles ,concepts , practices and essential ordinances are subsumed within it. Look again at 2Nephi 32: 5 and 6 .If we actually receive our BoFHG we not only will speak with the tongues of angels but the HG will open our minds to the unspeakable mysteries of Godliness.Look at what happen to Joseph . Prior to receiving his BoFHG he had seen the Father and Son. He had visited with Moroni or Nephi countless times. He had translated large sections of the BofM . But after that day in May he suddenly could understand the scriptures in a manner in which they "never could obtain to previously ,nor even before thought of " JSH 1:74. He could prophesy marvelous things. It was following this gift that he became a true prophet and revelator. All his subsequent spiritual development was predicated on this. Likewise with us. The ordinances of the temple are significant. But if we haven't been baptized with water and the Spirit (John 3:5 ) going to the temple 10,000 times will avail us nothing. This is why the Savior said it doesn't make any difference if we have caste out Devils and worked many miracles in his name if we know him not we will be cast out .Matt7 :21-23. The way we know him is by following the Doctrine of Christ 2 Nephi 32:5. Everything else we spend our time on family history ,temple work , home teaching,, priesthood service and advancement is all for naught unless we have been born again and have the HG directing us daily in how we live and breathe and have our being.In my personal experience most members of the church have never had this happen to them.As Elder Bednar taught the fact someone puts his hand on our head and says "receive the Holy Ghost" is not sufficient .it is an invitation ,an admonition to do so but is not the reality. Like all ordinances it is symbolic of what may be not a present reality of what is. Are you prophesying ? Are you receiving revelations? Are you entertaing Angels? If not you are not availing yourselves of the blessings God pours out on those who truly have received the simple fullness. If you want to know what really receiving the BoFHG is look at Helman 5 and see what happened to those unbaptized Lamanites. Talk to my son who at age 18 received his after fasting and praying about it for months. He described it as his whole body was on fire and he thought initially he was having a heart attack. If you are unsure ask God. He will tell you if you have received of the fullness or not and if not what you must do to receive it. It isn't that the so called higher ordinances aren't important it is if you follow the doctrine of Christ and receive those supernal blessings all the rest will come to you in due time .If you have the "higher blessings" but failed to get the fullness all of those higher blessings will avail you nothing worlds w/o end. I know this is at variance with what is taught in GD .It is precisely however what the revelations of God and the only prophet of this dispensation who bore public witness of being ministered to on multiple occasions by the Savior taught.There is so much that we can enjoy if only we will.

Wow, that was beautiful. I can't imagine adding more to this concept, so I will just leave my testimony that 5he prophet boo has spoken correctly and so clearly and beautifully. If a person has read the entire thread and concludes with boo's post here and does not believe all of the many witnesses and scripture references given in which Christ himself tells us what the fulness of the gospel and complete list of doctrine is, then I do not believe that another word from me will persuade them. If they can't take Christ's words for it, they won't take mine. And with the prophet boo's words tying up the lose ends and explaining how the other doctrines and ordinances of the church can be true while not part of the doctrines and fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, I have nothing else to say on this discussion, except....


Peace to you in your path,
Amonhi

[AI2.0]

Amonhi, I read your responses and Boo's, and I have to say, I am just at a loss as to how to even respond. I don't even know how to discuss this with you. You and Boo dismiss and mock my sources, and you and Boo (I KNOW who Dr. Daniel Peterson is and what he wrote was spot on) seem to have 'code words' that you understand and I don't. You two, because of the paths you've chosen, which have taken you OUT of the faith, have changed definitions of so many basic things, it's just so frustrating to have a conversation.

I think the problem is that you have your own religion which you preach, you are no longer LDS, so this religion of yours is not the same as mine, though you use the same scriptures that I use. It's like a Catholic and a Lutheran arguing over Bible passages. Boo also has his own religion which he believes in, though he says he attends church, I know he has another 'non-church he affiliates with.

When you talk about the 'fulness of the gospel', you mean something different than I mean. When you talk about Baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost, you're also referring to something different that my definition. Your definitions are not LDS definitions.

You are telling me stuff that I KNOW is not right and not true, but when I try to explain it, I can't because we aren't in the same religion.

If we wanted to really get into this, then we would have to give our definitions of each of these things. The problem is that you seem unable to give a concise definition of what you believe, rather you'll overwhelm with a bunch of scriptures and sources and no clear statement of WHAT YOU BELIEVE. It's so frustrating. I'm not even sure WHAT you are arguing for. Sorry, but I feel this is futile.