How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

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Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

:ymhug: Sarah,

I just have to say, you impress me. You're beliefs have been challenged by myself and others again and again, (not just on this thread), and you have humbly clarified and expressed your thoughts and points and acknowledged when you learned something. There are a number of people on this forum who refuse to learn or acknowledge new information when spoken by people they decided they don't like or that they feel oppose them. They reject anything that comes from a particular person not because it isn't true or supported by the scriptures, but because that person said it. You are different, and I for one respect that and you for it. :ymhug:

Thank you.

Peace,
Amonhi

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Sarah
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Sarah »

Amonhi wrote::ymhug: Sarah,

I just have to say, you impress me. You're beliefs have been challenged by myself and others again and again, (not just on this thread), and you have humbly clarified and expressed your thoughts and points and acknowledged when you learned something. There are a number of people on this forum who refuse to learn or acknowledge new information when spoken by people they decided they don't like or that they feel oppose them. They reject anything that comes from a particular person not because it isn't true or supported by the scriptures, but because that person said it. You are different, and I for one respect that and you for it. :ymhug:

Thank you.

Peace,
Amonhi
Thank you Amonhi. I see lots of truth preached on this forum, just like I saw preached on another LDS forum, and what became very painfully obvious to me over time is that often truth is used to justify behavior that actually takes people further away from Christ. That is why I like to be on the look out for that 1% of false doctrine that is being mixed in with a lot of truth that can get people off track. If all this truth being taught encourages people to reject something they will be painfully sorry for at the last day, then that is really sad to me. Someone can preach truth all day long, but at the end of the day if that person justifies doing something that is contrary for God's will, then that choice will be a detriment to progression, not an advantage.

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Sarah
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Sarah »

My words are in red.
Amonhi wrote:
Sarah wrote:I realize that I made a very generalized, blanket statement. When I said that every commandment that the Lord wants us to live has been revealed to the prophets, I was thinking that anything that the Spirit could direct you to do or to live, would fall under a category of something that has already been revealed to at least one prophet who has lived on the earth.
I disagree with this too. Our progression is not limited to what others have accomplished or learned before us. We are each able to be prophets and learn anything we want by revelation. New information that was not known before. There are countless examples of this including the revelation received by President Lorenzo Snow, "As man is God once was. As God is, man may become." Or the doctrine of Heavenly mother that was revealed by Eliza R. Snow. There are all sorts of things that I have learned by revelation that I have no other source for. That's why it is called revelation.
I was talking about commandments, or how you actually behave, and you are talking about revelation. Sure, I believe that I can receive revelation that not even Pres. Monson has received yet. It won't be a commandment for the Church to live, but it will be light and understanding for me. I might be inspired to serve someone specifically etc. But to me this isn't a new commandment, this falls under the categories of commandments that have been revealed to man since the beginning of time. So we're back to the looking at behaviors or choices or the DOING of something that is contrary to one of the already stated commandments, and that is why I think you were so interested in Abraham. That is what I feel like the danger is here. On your forum you were condoning a couple for having sex out of wedlock because they were married "spiritually." The Lord has bounds, and if you are going to cross those bounds, you better be dang sure you have received true revelation.
The point I was making is that if we have faith, are baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, we will be lead by the Holy Ghost to live commandments. But the Holy Ghost isn't going to give us a personal list. If we want to know what the commandments are, we can't just rely on the personal revelation.

Actually, the law and commandments can't save us. They never made anything perfect. If you are trying to get to heaven by living by the law and commandments, you will fail. Obeying law and commandments are a very important part of salvation though. They are meant to lead us to Christ, to come to him for forgiveness, to help us repent, to help us change. If you follow Christ and love him, you will "keep his commandments." We are going to be "judged by our works." The law of carnal commandments as taught by the Aaronic Priesthood along with the doctrine of sin,repentance, baptism, etc. is part of the preparatory gospel. Given to people who don't have the Holy Ghost as their guide.We know that baptism, repentance, and sin, all existed prior to Moses, therefore, these things are commanded of all men. Even Christ was baptized. Having the H.G. does not exempt you from doing these things.
25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb. - D&C 84
The Holy Ghost replaces the law of carnal commandments and tells you all things what you should do. Individual revelation in every situation, exactly contrary to what you are saying.
Christ fulfilled the law of carnal commandments and introduced the higher law. Repentance, baptism and remission of sin were all preached by Christ.
2 Nephi 32:5
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the Holy Ghost, it will show unto you all things what ye should do.

Sometimes it tells you to keep the law and sometimes it tells you to break the law. But if it tells you to break the law, you are not under condemnation because there is no law or commandment against following the Holy Ghost, which is the voice of God.
Galatians 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. - Gal. 5
The spirit supersedes all laws, commandments and prophets. It is the voice of God.
Doctrine and Covenants 18:35
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, and by my power you can read them one to another; and save it were by my power you could not have them;

Doctrine and Covenants 97:1
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will concerning your brethren in the land of Zion, many of whom are truly humble and are seeking diligently to learn wisdom and to find truth.

The spirit, or the voice of the Lord, can supersede the "law" but again, if the spirit is telling you to go against one of the Lord's commandments, then I would need to be very sure and have multiple sure witnesses that this indeed was okay. Why don't we just talk about the commandments that you feel people don't need to live if they have the Holy Ghost?

Doctrine and Covenants 88:66
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.
God supersedes commandments, laws and prophets and his voice is the spirit and the spirit doesn't always tell you to obey laws, prophets and commandments. But because it is God's voice, it is how we obey God. To put a prophet above the voice of the spirit is to dethrone God and make the prophet your God in His place. It is to put the prophet above God in your life.

Peace,
Amonhi
I put the spirit first in my life. I've done some things that some might say would "go against" what the prophet has said, but I don't think I have. Often our leaders give us broad direction, and the spirit can make it more specific for us. But if the spirit is telling you to break the word of wisdom, not pay tithing, break the law of chastity, or something like that, then I would seriously question what spirit you were listening to.

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

Sarah wrote:My words are in red.
Amonhi wrote:Actually, the law and commandments can't save us. They never made anything perfect. If you are trying to get to heaven by living by the law and commandments, you will fail. Obeying law and commandments are a very important part of salvation though. They are meant to lead us to Christ, to come to him for forgiveness, to help us repent, to help us change. If you follow Christ and love him, you will "keep his commandments." We are going to be "judged by our works."
Consider the following in relation to your thoughts... Please realize that the "law" is referencing the law of carnal commandments which are all the thou shalts and thou shalt nots... We have them in the church today through the Aaronic Priesthood which teaches the laws of the church.
Gal. 3

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
...
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
...
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
...
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The law of carnal commandments as taught by the Aaronic Priesthood along with the doctrine of sin,repentance, baptism, etc. is part of the preparatory gospel. Given to people who don't have the Holy Ghost as their guide.We know that baptism, repentance, and sin, all existed prior to Moses, therefore, these things are commanded of all men. Even Christ was baptized. Having the H.G. does not exempt you from doing these things.
The Melchizedek Priesthood existed before Melchizedek too, but we call it the Melchizedek Priesthood. It exists today as part of the restoration of all things. The Law of Moses was restored by John the Baptist when he gave Joseph Smith the Aaronic priesthood and instructed him on baptism. Baptism is part of the law of Moses. And just like animal sacrifices, it does nothing except point to the savior.
2 Wherefore, although a man should be baptized an hundred times it availeth him nothing, for you cannot enter in at the strait gate by the law of Moses, neither by your dead works.
3 For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old. - D&C 22
Also, John the Baptist didn't act under the Melchizedek priesthood, he acted under the Aaronic priesthood. The Priesthood given by Moses to Aaron to administer the Law of Moses. THe same one he restored to Joseph Smith. John the Baptist was "the embodiment of the Law of Moses".
John the Baptist
Son of Zacharias and Elisabeth, being of priestly descent through both parents. This lineage was essential, since John was the embodiment of the law of Moses, designed to prepare the way for the Messiah and make ready a people to receive Him. He was the outstanding bearer of the Aaronic Priesthood in all history and was entrusted with its most noble mission. - Bible Dictionary - John the Baptist
The Jews still baptize today, under the law of Moses. Baptism doesn't make sense without a law of carnal commandments which can be broken (sin) and repented of breaking (repentance) and the remission of Sins, (faith in Christ)
25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb. - D&C 84
The Holy Ghost replaces the law of carnal commandments and tells you all things what you should do. Individual revelation in every situation, exactly contrary to what you are saying.
Christ fulfilled the law of carnal commandments and introduced the higher law. Repentance, baptism and remission of sin were all preached by Christ.
Those principles are all part of the lower law and the Lower Priesthood administers them. Christ taught that we need to fulfill the lower law so we can live the higher law.

D&C 84:25-27 (above^^^) clearly says that these principles are part of the lower law, the Aaronic Priesthood and Preparatory Gospel. Moses and the Higher priesthood (Higher Law) was taken and what was left was the lower law, Aaronic Priesthood, preparatory gospel, "Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments. The scripture is very clear regarding what the lower law and "Preparatory Gospel" is and that it is governed by the Aaronic or lower priesthood. These principles are part of the lower law. This lower law is fulfilled and ended when.... we receive the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the beginning of the Higher Law and the First ordinance of the Melchidedek Priesthood or Higher Priesthood.

Christ taught the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is:
Faith, repentance, remission of sins, baptism AND THEN COMETH THE BAPTISM OF FIRE AND THE HOLY GHOST. In other words prepare for the higher law with Faith, repentance, baptism and then you will receive the higher law which comes from the baptism of fire and the reception of the Holy Ghost. Once you have received the Holy Ghost, (God), then the lower law has prepared you sufficiently to bridge the gap between you and God. Now you can talk to God directly through the Holy Ghost and God can give you direction as your constant companion.

I thought of something earlier today. Thought it was funny... "We don't prepare for the reception of the Prophet so he can be our constant companion and tell us all things that we should do." hehehe.

The goal is for the Holy Ghost to be our constant companion and if we lose it, then we are back to the lower law and have to repent through the Aaronic Priesthood and the Sacrament to prepare us to receive it again. The Holy Ghost will tell you all things that you should do.
God supersedes commandments, laws and prophets and his voice is the spirit and the spirit doesn't always tell you to obey laws, prophets and commandments. But because it is God's voice, it is how we obey God. To put a prophet above the voice of the spirit is to dethrone God and make the prophet your God in His place. It is to put the prophet above God in your life.
I put the spirit first in my life. I've done some things that some might say would "go against" what the prophet has said, but I don't think I have. Often our leaders give us broad direction, and the spirit can make it more specific for us. But if the spirit is telling you to break the word of wisdom, not pay tithing, break the law of chastity, or something like that, then I would seriously question what spirit you were listening to.
[/quote]
Yes, question it, a lot. But if you find it to be from God, then obey His voice. ;)

Edit: The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Lower low fulfilled by receiving the baptism of Fire and the the gift of the Holy Ghost. Jesus goes so far as to say anything more of less than this cometh of evil. The fulness of his gospel does not include temples, endowments, sealings, tithing, and anything else, just fulfilling the lower law and getting the spirit. In the book, "The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" by Elliaison, they explain that it is the fulness of the Gospel because the Holy Ghost will teach and guide to to do everything else that is right, good and of God. So, having the Holy Ghost as your guide is to have the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Peace,
Amonhi

butterfly
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by butterfly »

Amonhi wrote: 1) One went to Asia with Japeth (Son of Moses) which record we as a church don't have, but you can get some of the history translated into english. Let me know if you want a book on the subject and I'll look it up. It reads like the Book of Mormon following pride cycles and wars and prophets. They had prophets that called people to repentance and righteous and wicked leaders, etc. and they learned many great things by revelation.
If it's not too much trouble, I would appreciate the info on this book :)

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AI2.0
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

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My responses;
Edit: The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Lower low fulfilled by receiving the baptism of Fire and the the gift of the Holy Ghost. Jesus goes so far as to say anything more of less than this cometh of evil.?? I recall Jesus saying this about his doctrine, what he called the Doctrine of christ. That is faith, repentance, baptism by one having authority, gift of holy ghost, keep commandments, endure to the end. I don't recall him saying this about 'fullness' of gospel. Is there a scriptural reference to back up your claim? The fulness of his gospel does not include temples, endowments, sealings, tithing, and anything else, just fulfilling the lower law and getting the spirit. The 'Fullness' of the gospel is all the teachings which we have in the restoration and so it does include the temple ordinances, etc.In the book, "The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" by Elliaison, And who is 'Elliason"? Is this person a member of the LDS church or another person who has 'moved on' past the true church into a church of their own making. Is he part of the loose community who believe they are members of the church of the firstborn but believe they no longer are subject to the law?they explain that it is the fulness of the Gospel because the Holy Ghost will teach and guide to to do everything else that is right, good and of God. So, having the Holy Ghost as your guide is to have the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
That's not what the LDS church teaches. Having the holy ghost as our guide is what we all strive for. The fullness of the gospel are the doctrines, principles and ordinances of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints.

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Contemplator
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

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AI2.0 wrote:My responses;
Edit: The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Lower low fulfilled by receiving the baptism of Fire and the the gift of the Holy Ghost. Jesus goes so far as to say anything more of less than this cometh of evil.?? I recall Jesus saying this about his doctrine, what he called the Doctrine of christ. That is faith, repentance, baptism by one having authority, gift of holy ghost, keep commandments, endure to the end. I don't recall him saying this about 'fullness' of gospel. Is there a scriptural reference to back up your claim? The fulness of his gospel does not include temples, endowments, sealings, tithing, and anything else, just fulfilling the lower law and getting the spirit. The 'Fullness' of the gospel is all the teachings which we have in the restoration and so it does include the temple ordinances, etc.In the book, "The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" by Elliaison, And who is 'Elliason"? Is this person a member of the LDS church or another person who has 'moved on' past the true church into a church of their own making. Is he part of the loose community who believe they are members of the church of the firstborn but believe they no longer are subject to the law?they explain that it is the fulness of the Gospel because the Holy Ghost will teach and guide to to do everything else that is right, good and of God. So, having the Holy Ghost as your guide is to have the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
That's not what the LDS church teaches. Having the holy ghost as our guide is what we all strive for. The fullness of the gospel are the doctrines, principles and ordinances of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints.
Actually, while the tradition in the LDS church is to interpret the "fulness of the gospel" to mean all of the doctrines of the church, our scriptures are more concise. Consider D&C 39:
6 And this is my gospel—repentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom.
You referenced this as being the gospel. Agreed. Continuing speaking to James Covill in D&C 39:
10 But, behold, the days of thy deliverance are come, if thou wilt hearken to my voice, which saith unto thee: Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on my name, and you shall receive my Spirit, and a blessing so great as you never have known.
11 And if thou do this, I have prepared thee for a greater work. Thou shalt preach the fulness of my gospel, which I have sent forth in these last days, the covenant which I have sent forth to recover my people, which are of the house of Israel.
So, James is told that the blessing that arises from the gospel of Jesus Christ as defined in verse 6 is to receive Christ's Spirit (verse 10), "so great a blessing that you have never known." Then, in verse 11, we find that Jesus Christ says that the fulness of the gospel is the covenant to recover His people of the house of Israel. Thus, the fulness is the covenant that Christ will recover all who will exercise faith, repent and be baptized so that they can receive the Holy Ghost and be gathered in by the Spirit of Christ.

In D&C 76: 14, Joseph Smith declares, "the record which we bear is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ." So, what is the record which they bear? It is:
50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
Once again, the fulness of the gospel is simple and well defined in scripture. The record born by Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That record is that those who receive the gospel of Jesus Christ (again, receiving the testimony of Christ, repenting, being baptized and receiving the Holy Ghost) will receive the Holy Spirit of Promise and be gathered in.

I am not aware of any verse of scripture that defines the fulness of the gospel as including all of the teachings and ordinances of the church and the temple. Rather, it is simply what Jesus Christ said it is.

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

butterfly wrote:
Amonhi wrote: 1) One went to Asia with Japeth (Son of Moses) which record we as a church don't have, but you can get some of the history translated into english. Let me know if you want a book on the subject and I'll look it up. It reads like the Book of Mormon following pride cycles and wars and prophets. They had prophets that called people to repentance and righteous and wicked leaders, etc. and they learned many great things by revelation.
If it's not too much trouble, I would appreciate the info on this book :)
"Pagent of Chinese History" by Elizabeth Seeger

Their prophets are called the sages.
One of their sacred texts or scriptures includes the Tao by the Prophet Lao-tse. Tao means, "The way to God" or "Way to Heaven".

The Prophet Confucius taught many of the teachings of Christ over 500 years before Christ, like "Do unto others what you want done unto yourself".

The book is the history of China and you will recognize the prophets as you read them because they act like prophet, teaching the people how to live right. The book leaves out most of the religious references, but you will see their cycles good rulers and bad rulers, good rulers and bad rulers and the teachings that change the people and created peace and prosperity, etc.

Peace,
Amonhi

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investigator
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by investigator »

Sarah Said...

"I put the spirit first in my life. I've done some things that some might say would "go against" what the prophet has said, but I don't think I have. Often our leaders give us broad direction, and the spirit can make it more specific for us. But if the spirit is telling you to break the word of wisdom, not pay tithing , break the law of chastity, or something like that, then I would seriously question what spirit you were listening to."

Kinda like when Nephi was commanded by the spirit to slay Laban?.

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

AI2.0 wrote:My responses;
Edit: The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Lower low fulfilled by receiving the baptism of Fire and the the gift of the Holy Ghost. Jesus goes so far as to say anything more of less than this cometh of evil.?? I recall Jesus saying this about his doctrine, what he called the Doctrine of christ. That is faith, repentance, baptism by one having authority, gift of holy ghost, keep commandments, endure to the end. I don't recall him saying this about 'fullness' of gospel. Is there a scriptural reference to back up your claim?
I had written out my response, but I was just saying the same thing as Elliaison with saying it as nice. I liked Contemplator's response to... But in the end, I just decided to quote Chapter 1 from "The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ - Making Your Calling and Election Sure" by Elliaison I am kind of giving out a big secret here because we Mormons get all excited that we have the fulness of the Gospel and very few of us who have been raised in the church even know what it is. I call people on this all the time because people lump things into the fulness of the gospel that aren't part of it. Not only is it the fulness of the gospel, but it his only doctrine among all his teaching and the rock on which we must build or we are building on a sandy foundation.
Greater Than Gold


After praying for another divine manifestation, Joseph Smith was visited by the angel Moroni. Joseph later wrote,
"He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that “the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;" JS-H 1:34
From this, we know that whatever the Fulness of the Gospel is, it is contained in the Book of Mormon. This message was so valuable that it was worth more than the gold plates it was written on. Joseph spent the next few years preparing to receive these plates of Gold. Today, few people realize how valuable that message is. It is the key that unlocks all the blessings of the kingdom of God and the powers of heaven. Even today, this message is rarely understood or applied by mankind. That message is, “The Fulness of the Everlasting Gospel”.

If Moroni is correct, then anything we consider to be included in the Fulness of the everlasting Gospel must be found in that book. This means that doctrines including Celestial Marriage, Degrees of Glory and other basic doctrines of the church are not part of the fulness of the everlasting Gospel, unless you can find them in the Book of Mormon. (We cannot.)

In our experience, there are many both in the church and outside the church that do not understand the fullness of the gospel and so do not know how to walk the path required to obtain the promise of eternal life which is known in the church as “receiving ones calling and election made sure. This book’s purpose is to explain:

1. What the Fulness of the Gospel is.
2. Why it is the Fulness of the Gospel and key to ALL things.
3. How the Fulness of the Gospel leads directly to Calling & Election.
4. How people really receive their Calling & Election made sure.

At this point, we would like to re-iterate something. The Book of Mormon was not just the history of the people on the American continent, but it has a greater purpose. It was created and given to “bring to light the true points of Christ’s doctrine” and particularly it is the main tool of the restoration of the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ taught this through the prophet Joseph Smith who recorded,
"I am he who said—Other sheep have I which are not of this fold—unto my disciples, and many there were that understood me not.
And I will show unto this people that I had other sheep, and that they were a branch of the house of Jacob; And I will bring to light their marvelous works, which they did in my name;
Yea, and I will also bring to light my gospel which was ministered unto them, and, behold, they shall not deny that which you have received, but they shall build it up, and shall bring to light the true points of my doctrine, yea, and the only doctrine which is in me.
And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.

Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery; " - D&C 10:59-64
Even before finding the plates Joseph recounted being told by Moroni that they contained the fullness of the everlasting Gospel. Moroni also told young Joseph something that many of us overlook. Moroni specifically told Joseph who had taught this important information. Joseph wrote,
“He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;" JSH 1:34
That should narrow our search down to only the time period in which the Savior was present and teaching the people directly. The answer to our question must be found between 3Ne. 11, (When Christ arrived), and 3Ne. 28:12, (When Christ Departed.)
A quick search for the exact phrase, “this is my gospel”, throughout the entire canonized scriptures on the Church website, (scriptures.lds.org), will yield the following resulting scripture references: 3Ne. 27:20-21, D&C 39:6, 33:11-13
"Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day. Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;"(3Ne.27:20-21)

"And this is my gospelrepentance and baptism by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which showeth all things, and teacheth the peaceable things of the kingdom." (D&C 39:6)

“Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved; And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you." (D&C 33:11-13)
After comparing the above scriptures with each other, we begin to see three common elements which make up “The Gospel of Jesus Christ”. They are:
  1. Repentance
  2. Baptism by water
  3. Baptism by Fire and the Holy Ghost (also called the reception of the Holy Ghost in 3Ne.27:20-21)
Take notice of the verses from 3Ne. 27:20-21. They were spoken by Christ as he was teaching personally among the Nephites. This message was actually repeated multiple times by Christ as he taught the people. An account of another such instance is written in 3Ne. 11:31-40 in which he concludes by saying,
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them." 3Ne 11:39-40
These are pretty strong words by Christ! As we ponder the implications of this message, questions begin to form. The two questions we would like to address immediately are:
  1. With all the doctrines and teachings in the scriptures and church, how can these three principles constitute the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
  2. • We have known many people who have repented, been baptized and received the Holy Ghost and then eventually have fallen away. How can this be the rock or sure foundation?
The fulness of his gospel does not include temples, endowments, sealings, tithing, and anything else, just fulfilling the lower law and getting the spirit. The 'Fullness' of the gospel is all the teachings which we have in the restoration and so it does include the temple ordinances, etc.
Yeah, like I said above, this is a great mystery to us Mormons. My guess is that you are like me: I was raised in the church, served a full time honorable mission teaching others the doctrines of Christ, got married in the temple and still didn't know what the Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was until you read that first Chapter of Elliaison's book. I call people on this all the time. The reason the Book is called "The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ - Making your calling and Election sure" is because once you know the rock on which you should build and start building it, then you can no longer fall. If you can no longer fall, then you qualify to be given your C&E because God isn't risking anything, He knows you won't fall because you built on the rock. If you build on anything else, then you will fall. People build their foundations on all sorts of things; The church, the Prophets & Apostles, Temples, eternal families, obedience, whatever... All sand... There is only one rock.

I have to quote from the second chapter in that book too...
The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ

Although we may not be familiar with the concept that the fullness of the Gospel is only these three principles, we are more familiar with these principles than any other principles we have been taught.
In fact, no matter what else may be taught in sacrament meetings throughout the world, the fullness of the gospel is taught. We just didn’t know we were being taught the fullness of the gospel. This weekly lesson is the most important part of the sacrament meeting. It is the sacrament itself. While among the Nephites, Christ instituted the sacrament and taught the meaning behind the sacrament.

“And this shall ye do in remembrance of my body, which I have shown unto you. And it shall be a testimony unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you. And this shall ye always do to those who repent and are baptized in my name; and ye shall do it in remembrance of my blood, which I have shed for you, that ye may witness unto the Father that ye do always remember me. And if ye do always remember me ye shall have my Spirit to be with you.
And I give unto you a commandment that ye shall do these things. And if ye shall always do these things blessed are ye, for ye are built upon my rock. But whoso among you shall do more or less than these are not built upon my rock, but are built upon a sandy foundation; and when the rain descends, and the floods come, and the winds blow, and beat upon them, they shall fall, and the gates of hell are ready open to receive them. 3Ne.18:7-13

Elder Dallin H. Oaks helped to clarify the connection between Sacrament, Repentance, baptism and the Holy Ghost. In October 1998 General conference he said,

“What does it mean that the Aaronic Priesthood holds “the key of the ministering of angels” and of the “gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins”? The meaning is found in the ordinance of baptism and in the sacrament. Baptism is for the remission of sins, and the sacrament is a renewal of the covenants and blessings of baptism. Both should be preceded by repentance. When we keep the covenants made in these ordinances, we are promised that we will always have His Spirit to be with us. The ministering of angels is one of the manifestations of that Spirit.” - Dallin H. Oaks, “The Aaronic Priesthood and the Sacrament,” Ensign, Nov 1998, 37

Take note regarding his comment about the ministering of angles being manifestations of that spirit. We may discuss that interesting point in another book, but for now realize that the sacrament as instituted by Christ to the Nephites is yet another fulfillment of Moroni’s words to Joseph Smith relating to the Savior teaching the Gospel to the Nephites. And, there it is, (hidden in the mystery of the Sacrament), and we experience it almost every Sunday.

The three principles of the Fulness of the Gospel are present in every sacrament meeting through the sacrament itself. But, we still have not yet discovered how these three principles contain the “Fullness” of the Gospel. The answer is found in the principles themselves.
In the book, "The Fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ" by Elliaison, And who is 'Elliason"? Is this person a member of the LDS church or another person who has 'moved on' past the true church into a church of their own making. Is he part of the loose community who believe they are members of the church of the firstborn but believe they no longer are subject to the law?
That book was written by a number of people each of whom has had their C&E made sure and wanted to help others to do the same. I believe they are all still members of the church, not positive as I don't know or remember who they all are.
they explain that it is the fulness of the Gospel because the Holy Ghost will teach and guide to to do everything else that is right, good and of God. So, having the Holy Ghost as your guide is to have the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
That's not what the LDS church teaches. Having the holy ghost as our guide is what we all strive for. The fullness of the gospel are the doctrines, principles and ordinances of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day saints.[/quote][/quote]
Do you remember how the church is under condemnation for not reading the book of Mormon?
Doctrine and Covenants 18:35
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, and by my power you can read them one to another; and save it were by my power you could not have them;

Doctrine and Covenants 97:1
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will concerning your brethren in the land of Zion, many of whom are truly humble and are seeking diligently to learn wisdom and to find truth.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:66
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.
53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, (Wheat from the Tares) and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—
55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—
58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion. - D&C 84
Do you remember how that book will bring people closer to God than any other book? It will bring us into God's presence. It does so by teaching the Doctrine of Christ which is the Fuulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ because if you can get the spirit and follow it, then it will bring you back to God's presence. (Quickly)
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father. - D&C 84

44 For you shall live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God. (through the spirit) - D&C 84
Every member of this Church could and should have their C&E made sure and entered back into God's presence, but they do not know how because they do not know or understand the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the rock on which if we build, we can not fall. Without knowing that rock, they build on sandy foundations, none of which will bring them to God.

Peace,
Amonhi

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shadow
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by shadow »

Silly Nephi, one of the first things he did was build a Temple. Coincidently, one of the first things the Lord instructed Joseph Smith to do was to build a Temple.
39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.

Elliaison is a fraud. It's not even a person's real name. It's a title a bunch of kids gave themselves, like the "lost boys" in Peter Pan. Groupies.
Last edited by shadow on March 30th, 2016, 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Matthew.B
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Matthew.B »

shadow wrote:Silly Nephi, one of the first things he did was build a Temple. Coincidently, one of the first things the Lord instructed Joseph Smith to do was to build a Temple.
These are good points. There are no details of temple worship given in the Book of Mormon, though--the basic doctrine of Christ (repentance, baptism, obedience, receiving the Holy Ghost & baptism of fire and HG) is what's consistently repeated. Jacob beheld the glory of the Lord in his youth, before a temple was constructed.

I wonder if the "fullness" is contained within the doctrine of Christ, and temples are tools to teach groups of people and administer needed ordinances. In that sense, I wonder if the "fullness" of the Gospel is different from what might be considered the "fullness" of the Priesthood and everything pertaining thereto (including temples).

Just wondering aloud--I don't know the answer to those questions. I don't think the "fullness of the Gospel" is ever defined.

For the record, I have no idea who or what Eliason is and don't have an opinion on anything pertaining to him/it. I don't want to be pegged as believing something that I don't.

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Sarah
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Sarah »

If you repent, are baptized, have faith in Christ, and then receive the Holy Ghost, you will recognize truth when it is revealed to you, INCLUDING a witness of true prophets, further revelation, doctrines pertaining to the priesthood, new scripture, etc. Even if you have the Holy Ghost, if you choose to reject truth as it is taught to you, then you will loose the companionship of the Holy Ghost.

This assertion that the Lord can only trust you if you build upon him as your rock and NOT LET ANYTHING ELSE GET IN THE WAY is the same doctrine espoused by main-stream Christianity as an excuse for rejecting the BofM, Joseph Smith, and further revelation, just repackaged for Latter-Day-Saints.

Amonhi, I assume then that you believe Joseph was in good standing with God until he started introducing temple building and doctrines associated with the ordinances we participate therein, including the doctrine on eternal marriage.

zionminded
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by zionminded »

Sarah wrote:If you repent, are baptized, have faith in Christ, and then receive the Holy Ghost, you will recognize truth when it is revealed to you, INCLUDING a witness of true prophets, further revelation, doctrines pertaining to the priesthood, new scripture, etc. Even if you have the Holy Ghost, if you choose to reject truth as it is taught to you, then you will loose the companionship of the Holy Ghost.
Missionaries actually teach those who have not been baptized can be shown truth, see Moroni 10:5.

If you reject truth you lose the spirit? Does this include church leaders who have rejected truths in the past? I'm not sure rejecting truth results in a loss of the companionship of the H.G., but it certainly does result in consequences as you don't follow the promptings of the spirit.

Finrock
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Finrock »

Amonhi wrote:...[O]nce you know the rock on which you should build and start building it, then you can no longer fall. If you can no longer fall, then you qualify to be given your C&E because God isn't risking anything, He knows you won't fall because you built on the rock. If you build on anything else, then you will fall. People build their foundations on all sorts of things; The church, the Prophets & Apostles, Temples, eternal families, obedience, whatever... All sand... There is only one rock.
This is profound. I'm going to try to say this as plainly as I understand it. This is for the benefit of all and for God's glory.

When you are baptized by fire you receive the Holy Ghost. Receiving the Holy Ghost means that your spirit is made holy. Your spirit has become a Holy Spirit, through the sanctifying blood of Jesus Christ. You have received the Holy Ghost. You are no longer who you were before. You are not carnal, but holy. This sanctifying event is real, true, and becomes an anchor.

Yes, this seems impossible! I struggled to believe that Jesus Christ was powerful enough to make me clean. I know how sinful I have been. I know I am nothing. I know I am weak. It was hard to believe that Christ could make me clean, pure, and without spot. But, have faith and believe! It is true, He can do it! He can make you clean, pure, and without spot so that you can become a Holy Spirit.

Since my baptism by fire my trials have persisted and even increased, yet, having received the Holy Ghost and trusting in that condescension of God, I have found a sure place to build my life. This is why this event is so important to receive and to understand. It provides the very foundation upon which we can rise up to become perfected and to receive all God has for us.

Satan (world) would have us to disbelieve that we can become clean and pure. He would have us disregard such notions. But receiving the Holy Ghost is an event which changes your very spirit and "writes God's law in to your heart and in to your mind". It took me some time to understand this but what Amonhi points out here in plainness is important for those who have received the Holy Ghost to understand. That event/experience/change is the rock upon which we can build our life. Knowing and believing this increases our faith in that assurance. Further it allows you to have hope that God has your back and won't abandon you, leading you to have greater faith in receiving or having already received your calling and election.

These things become sure anchors which secure us down so that when all things fade like vapor, our feet are firmly planted upon a foundation that cannot fail. We can rely on Christ. Accept Him and His way. Allow that idea to prevail in your thoughts and in your mind, in all situations. Knowing God has saved you and won't abandon you, you can begin to go forward with an almost reckless abandon in applying the principles of Christ in life, no matter what, come hell or high water, you will not abandon Christ because He will not abandon you. We press forward, allowing each failure to refine us and accepting life on God's terms, having patience and love towards ourselves and all because we know Christ is patient and loving towards us.

-Finrock

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Mark
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Mark »

shadow wrote:Silly Nephi, one of the first things he did was build a Temple. Coincidently, one of the first things the Lord instructed Joseph Smith to do was to build a Temple.
39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.

Elliaison is a fraud. It's not even a person's real name. It's a title a bunch of kids gave themselves, like the "lost boys" in Peter Pan. Groupies.
Wasnt this Elliaison stuff being peddled by all those on this board who got deeply involved and jumped head first into the Snuffer remnant movement? Is Snuffer part of this group? It doesnt surprise me that Amonhi is so involved and excited about it. Is he one of the co-authors? Who exactly are all these folks? Do they publish their names or just go by pseudo names?
Last edited by Mark on March 30th, 2016, 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

shadow wrote:Silly Nephi, one of the first things he did was build a Temple. Coincidently, one of the first things the Lord instructed Joseph Smith to do was to build a Temple.
The Nephites did build a temple patterned after Solomon's Temple. They had the Aaronic Priesthood, just as the Children of Israel did when Lehi left with his family. The ordinances performed in the temple using that priesthood was detailed very clearly in the Bible. Their temple service included the temple ordinances as given in the Law of Moses (lower law).

That being said, Elliaison's point that the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is contained in the book of Mormon as taught by Jesus Christ, (according to Moroni), does not include temples. A simple word search for "temple" will show that in 3Nephi 11-28, the word temple is used twice. Neither time is it used by the Savior in teaching his doctrine which Moroni said was the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the savior. Both times it was used as a location or reference point and not a doctrine.

In this conversation, are having the same problem the ancient Nephites were having. They were disputing the points of Christ doctrine.
28 And according as I have commanded you thus shall ye baptize. And there shall be no disputations among you, as there have hitherto been; neither shall there be disputations among you concerning the points of my doctrine, as there have hitherto been.

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.
31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them. - 3Ne. 11:31
It's funny how he starts by telling us "I'm going to tell you my doctrine, so get ready, here it comes". Then he says "this is my doctrine" indicating that he is telling us right now. And he tells us his doctrine and then says, "Again" to tell us, "I know it was short and you probably missed it because you are hard of hearing and aren't easily taught through your pride, so I will say it again..." and he declares his again. Then he says, "AGAIN", as if to tell us, "Yeah, it was really short and some of you might not have caught it the first 2 times, so I'll tell you again in hopes that you catch it the third time." And he tells us the third time. And then to make sure that we realize that he finished telling us his doctrine, he announces, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them."

And to make absolutely sure that everybody understands that his doctrine does not includes everything he just taught 3 times and nothing else, he says, "And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation"

Anyone familiar with hemlock knots and corn dodgers? ;) =))

This was the first thing he taught the 12 Disciples as soon as he arrived on day 1, so they would stop disputing his doctrine.
(Christ Visits the Nephites - Schedule day 1
  1. Descend from heaven
  2. Physical interaction with the people (wounds in hands, feet and sides)
  3. Give authority to 12 Disciples to baptize
  4. Teach the 12 Disciples your doctrine
  5. Introduce the 12 Disciples to the multitude and invite them to be baptized.
  6. Tell the multitude to testify to others saying they have seen me and know that I am.
  7. ...


Just so we're all on the same page:
Fullness is defined as
noun
1. the state of being filled to capacity.
If there is less than its capacity, then under full with undesired lack. If there is more than its capacity, then it is over full with undesired excess. Neither more than nor less than is considered equal to full. Jesus himself told us the fulness of his doctrine.

Now, if you declare more than this doctrine and establish it as Christ's doctrine, then you have taught in excess of the fulness of Christ's doctrine and that comes of evil and you are not built on his rock, so you will fall.

Now, if you declare less than this doctrine and establish it as Christ's doctrine, then you have taught less then of the fulness of Christ's doctrine and that comes of evil and you are not built on his rock, so you will fall.

Do you see any mention of temples in His doctrine? How about, obedience to prophets? Or, maybe tithing. Or anything except for repentance, Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and God will visit you with fire and the Holy Ghost? (Maybe be as a little child, humble. I could see that in the list here although it is lacking from the other places where he taught his doctrine and gospel.)

I think that it is pretty clear that if you declare anything more or less than these points and ESTABLISH it as Christ's doctrine, "the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation".

The thing is that he said it 3 times in these verses, but he said it multiple other times
Side note:
2 And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. - 3Nephi 12:2
Regarding anyone that has seen Christ and testifies to others that they have seen him and know that he is, this will bless them if they believe on your words. Christ encourages those who have seen to testify that they have seen and know that he is, for the blessing and benefit of those who will believe on their words. I am sure that he understood that some would not believe on their words and therefore not received the blessing, but he encourages them to testify anyway. :-?

So, do you know Christ's doctrine? Do you know his Gospel?

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

Mark wrote:
shadow wrote:Silly Nephi, one of the first things he did was build a Temple. Coincidently, one of the first things the Lord instructed Joseph Smith to do was to build a Temple.
39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.

Elliaison is a fraud. It's not even a person's real name. It's a title a bunch of kids gave themselves, like the "lost boys" in Peter Pan. Groupies.
Wasnt this Elliaison stuff being peddled by all those on this board who got deeply involved and jumped head first into the Snuffer movement? Is Snuffer part of this group?
Heavens no... Elliaison is not associated with Snuffer. Snuffer may have read some Elliaison stuff as it has been around long before Snuffer was preaching his stuff, but if he did, he has changed it and added to it significantly.

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

Mark wrote:
shadow wrote:Silly Nephi, one of the first things he did was build a Temple. Coincidently, one of the first things the Lord instructed Joseph Smith to do was to build a Temple.
39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.

Elliaison is a fraud. It's not even a person's real name. It's a title a bunch of kids gave themselves, like the "lost boys" in Peter Pan. Groupies.
Wasnt this Elliaison stuff being peddled by all those on this board who got deeply involved and jumped head first into the Snuffer remnant movement?
- I think the vast majority of Snuffer followers have not heard of Elliaison.

Is Snuffer part of this group?
- No.

It doesnt surprise me that Amonhi is so involved and excited about it. Is he one of the co-authors?
- I have contributed to their books. I have also posted much of my contributions on this forum in the thread, "The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure". A few other people on this forum have contributed to their books as well. I have on occasion seen a post that I though was particularly amazing and asked the author if I could submit it to Elliaison for use in a future book.

Who exactly are all these folks?
- ???

Do they publish their names or just go by pseudo names?
- Some admit to being contributors and some do not. The names are not published in the books. They don't need the recognition that others who put their names in the public spot light get to deal with.

Peace,
Amonhi

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AI2.0
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by AI2.0 »

zionminded wrote:
Sarah wrote:If you repent, are baptized, have faith in Christ, and then receive the Holy Ghost, you will recognize truth when it is revealed to you, INCLUDING a witness of true prophets, further revelation, doctrines pertaining to the priesthood, new scripture, etc. Even if you have the Holy Ghost, if you choose to reject truth as it is taught to you, then you will loose the companionship of the Holy Ghost.
Missionaries actually teach those who have not been baptized can be shown truth, see Moroni 10:5.

If you reject truth you lose the spirit? Does this include church leaders who have rejected truths in the past? I'm not sure rejecting truth results in a loss of the companionship of the H.G., but it certainly does result in consequences as you don't follow the promptings of the spirit.
What church leaders have rejected actual 'truths'? Are these 'truths' things that you believe to be true, or are they known teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, cause I'm pretty sure you're one of those on the forum who has their own view of what 'truth' is, and it's not in harmony with the teachings of the LDS church.

Sarah is right, if you reject truth you lose the spirit you even lose the truths that you had; this is what Alma warned about; Alma 12:9-11. Also, as a person rejects truth, they are more easily deceived by Satan and more easily drawn into temptation and sin.

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AI2.0
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Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

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Amonhi wrote:
Mark wrote:
shadow wrote:Silly Nephi, one of the first things he did was build a Temple. Coincidently, one of the first things the Lord instructed Joseph Smith to do was to build a Temple.
39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.

Elliaison is a fraud. It's not even a person's real name. It's a title a bunch of kids gave themselves, like the "lost boys" in Peter Pan. Groupies.
Wasnt this Elliaison stuff being peddled by all those on this board who got deeply involved and jumped head first into the Snuffer remnant movement?
- I think the vast majority of Snuffer followers have not heard of Elliaison.

Is Snuffer part of this group?
- No.

It doesnt surprise me that Amonhi is so involved and excited about it. Is he one of the co-authors?
- I have contributed to their books. I have also posted much of my contributions on this forum in the thread, "The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure". A few other people on this forum have contributed to their books as well. I have on occasion seen a post that I though was particularly amazing and asked the author if I could submit it to Elliaison for use in a future book.

Who exactly are all these folks?
- ???

Do they publish their names or just go by pseudo names?
- Some admit to being contributors and some do not. The names are not published in the books. They don't need the recognition that others who put their names in the public spot light get to deal with.

Peace,
Amonhi
Regarding Elliaison, how many of them are still members in good standing? How many of them are active, believing LDS? Did they leave the faith before or after they got involved with this group?

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

AI2.0 wrote:
Amonhi wrote:
Mark wrote:
shadow wrote:Silly Nephi, one of the first things he did was build a Temple. Coincidently, one of the first things the Lord instructed Joseph Smith to do was to build a Temple.
39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.

Elliaison is a fraud. It's not even a person's real name. It's a title a bunch of kids gave themselves, like the "lost boys" in Peter Pan. Groupies.
Wasnt this Elliaison stuff being peddled by all those on this board who got deeply involved and jumped head first into the Snuffer remnant movement?
- I think the vast majority of Snuffer followers have not heard of Elliaison.

Is Snuffer part of this group?
- No.

It doesnt surprise me that Amonhi is so involved and excited about it. Is he one of the co-authors?
- I have contributed to their books. I have also posted much of my contributions on this forum in the thread, "The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure". A few other people on this forum have contributed to their books as well. I have on occasion seen a post that I though was particularly amazing and asked the author if I could submit it to Elliaison for use in a future book.

Who exactly are all these folks?
- ???

Do they publish their names or just go by pseudo names?
- Some admit to being contributors and some do not. The names are not published in the books. They don't need the recognition that others who put their names in the public spot light get to deal with.

Peace,
Amonhi
Regarding Elliaison, how many of them are still members in good standing? How many of them are active, believing LDS? Did they leave the faith before or after they got involved with this group?
I do not know everything about the Elliaison contributors. I do not speak for Elliaison. Just have some insights from years of interactions. You could ask me similar questions regarding BrianM (Owner of this forum) and I might be able to answer more detail.

Peace,
Amonhi

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4650

Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by Amonhi »

AI2.0 wrote:
zionminded wrote:
Sarah wrote:If you repent, are baptized, have faith in Christ, and then receive the Holy Ghost, you will recognize truth when it is revealed to you, INCLUDING a witness of true prophets, further revelation, doctrines pertaining to the priesthood, new scripture, etc. Even if you have the Holy Ghost, if you choose to reject truth as it is taught to you, then you will loose the companionship of the Holy Ghost.
Missionaries actually teach those who have not been baptized can be shown truth, see Moroni 10:5.

If you reject truth you lose the spirit? Does this include church leaders who have rejected truths in the past? I'm not sure rejecting truth results in a loss of the companionship of the H.G., but it certainly does result in consequences as you don't follow the promptings of the spirit.
What church leaders have rejected actual 'truths'? Are these 'truths' things that you believe to be true, or are they known teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, cause I'm pretty sure you're one of those on the forum who has their own view of what 'truth' is, and it's not in harmony with the teachings of the LDS church.

Sarah is right, if you reject truth you lose the spirit you even lose the truths that you had; this is what Alma warned about; Alma 12:9-11. Also, as a person rejects truth, they are more easily deceived by Satan and more easily drawn into temptation and sin.
With that in mind, the truth is that the ONLY rock on which you can build a sure foundation is the Holy Ghost, which is the voice of God to you directly. This is the ONLY foundation which the Jesus says will save us from the gates of hell.
“Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost. Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and remember that they shall have faith in me or they can in nowise be saved; And upon this rock I will build my church; yea, upon this rock ye are built, and if ye continue, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you." (D&C 33:11-13)

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them. And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them." 3Ne 11:39-40
Peace,
Amonhi

zionminded
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1438

Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by zionminded »

Mark wrote:
shadow wrote:Silly Nephi, one of the first things he did was build a Temple. Coincidently, one of the first things the Lord instructed Joseph Smith to do was to build a Temple.
39 Therefore, verily I say unto you, that your anointings, and your washings, and your baptisms for the dead, and your solemn assemblies, and your memorials for your sacrifices by the sons of Levi, and for your oracles in your most holy places wherein you receive conversations, and your statutes and judgments, for the beginning of the revelations and foundation of Zion, and for the glory, honor, and endowment of all her municipals, are ordained by the ordinance of my holy house, which my people are always commanded to build unto my holy name.

Elliaison is a fraud. It's not even a person's real name. It's a title a bunch of kids gave themselves, like the "lost boys" in Peter Pan. Groupies.
Wasnt this Elliaison stuff being peddled by all those on this board who got deeply involved and jumped head first into the Snuffer remnant movement? Is Snuffer part of this group? It doesnt surprise me that Amonhi is so involved and excited about it. Is he one of the co-authors? Who exactly are all these folks? Do they publish their names or just go by pseudo names?
Those in the 3rd phase of Fowlers level of faith think that all non-traditional thought comes from apostates outside the box.

zionminded
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1438

Re: How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Post by zionminded »

AI2.0 wrote:
zionminded wrote:
Sarah wrote:If you repent, are baptized, have faith in Christ, and then receive the Holy Ghost, you will recognize truth when it is revealed to you, INCLUDING a witness of true prophets, further revelation, doctrines pertaining to the priesthood, new scripture, etc. Even if you have the Holy Ghost, if you choose to reject truth as it is taught to you, then you will loose the companionship of the Holy Ghost.
Missionaries actually teach those who have not been baptized can be shown truth, see Moroni 10:5.

If you reject truth you lose the spirit? Does this include church leaders who have rejected truths in the past? I'm not sure rejecting truth results in a loss of the companionship of the H.G., but it certainly does result in consequences as you don't follow the promptings of the spirit.
What church leaders have rejected actual 'truths'? Are these 'truths' things that you believe to be true, or are they known teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, cause I'm pretty sure you're one of those on the forum who has their own view of what 'truth' is, and it's not in harmony with the teachings of the LDS church.

Sarah is right, if you reject truth you lose the spirit you even lose the truths that you had; this is what Alma warned about; Alma 12:9-11. Also, as a person rejects truth, they are more easily deceived by Satan and more easily drawn into temptation and sin.
The church taught that polygamy was required for salvation, then changed it, and made it an excommunicatable offense. During those years, did church leaders lose the spirit? What about when they taught that black men were not worthy to receive the priesthood because they made choices in the preexistence to make them not worth and they were born to race that was cursed? Did they lose the spirit during those years?

You lose the spirit, yes, when you turn away from truth, but when you turn back, you get it back quickly. God doesn't use "having the spirit" like a weapon against you, to punish you when you do something wrong, but he uses it as a way (strong way) to let you know when your off track. This is a long topic, that only those who have gone through a repentance process can know and understand.

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