Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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larsenb
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Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

Post by larsenb »

RIchard Hauck's latest LDS-related archaeological activity is centered in Khor Kharfot in Oman (by border of Yemen). They recently were given formal permission by the Omani government to dig there, and are at this moment actively pursuing the project in Oman.

Khor Kharfot apparently is the best candidate for the original site of Nephi's Bountiful where they built the ship to come to the Land of Promise. Survey work indicates the lay out of a shrine or temple structure, which according to Ric, is in the dimensions of the original Solomon's Temple.

Here is a link and some extracts to the amazing story of how they received permission to do the dig posted at LDS Update/LDSMag: http://ldsmag.com/major-announcement-om ... bountiful/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here are some extracts:

Major Announcement: Omanis Grant Permission to Dig at Nephi’s Bountiful
By Scot and Maurine Proctor · February 10, 2016

During the month of February a team of archaeologists, scholars and divers, headed by Dr. F. Richard Hauck, will be at Nephi’s Bountiful on a dig to find answers to some critical questions about conditions there in 600 BC. Representing Meridian, the Proctors will be there as well to give our readers day-by-day coverage of this spiritual and archaeological adventure. Come with us to the edge of the Arabian Peninsula and the edge of our ancient scriptural history.

The Khor Kharfot Foundation, headed by Clyde and Karen Parker, Mark and Lori Hamilton and the Proctors, sent teams of archaeologists, botanists and scholars twice in 2013 and again last year to do reconnaissance and analyze the site. Now the work expands.

Click here to subscribe to Meridian’s free sends.

It seemed impossible that the government that rules the devoted Muslim country of Oman on the southeastern cap of the Arabian Penninsula would grant permission for an archaeological team, headed by a Latter-day Saint, to dig at the isolated beach called Khor Kharfot which is not just the most, but probably the only viable candidate for Nephi’s Bountiful.

Not only have the Omanis granted permission, they are willing to be our partners, facilitate the work, allow samples to be taken out of the country to be analyzed and more. These are Muslims graciously supporting a very Mormon project—to know everything we can about Nephi’s Bountiful.

How that came to be is the remarkable story we will tell here, but to understand why this is breathtakingly significant requires some context.

Nephi's BountifulIn describing Bountiful where he built the ship, Nephi gives us specific details, including that it is a place on the seashore accessible from the high desert, directly east of Nahom, a place of much fruit and honey and a place with significant timber. It must have a supply of fresh water, iron ore to make tools, flint to make fire, a mountain close enough that he can go there to pray often, and cliffs by the seashore since his brothers threaten to throw him in. (See more detailed description here.

The location of Nahom has been discovered in Yemen, a place called by that name long before Lehi trudged that way in 600 B.C. So what directly east of there could possibly fit these many criteria specified or suggested in Nephi’s story?

Frankly, Nephi’s Bountiful just doesn’t fit the dry, barren, treeless expanse of Arabia. His Bountiful would be as distinctive as a diamond in the sand in that landscape. What is tree-covered and verdant in Arabia? Only a few possible candidates—and all of them miss in several ways. Only one place meets every criterion—an isolated beach near the border of Yemen called Khor Kharfot.
Here is the data on the possible sanctuary:
The Most Important Question

The question that matters most of all is almost too tantalizing to ask. Did Nephi and Lehi leave anything behind that can indicate that they were here? At first, the answer would seem to be ‘no.’ They were here perhaps two to four years preparing all things and building this ship, not long enough it seems to have left their mark.

Nephi's BountifulThat’s what we all assumed, but when Warren Aston gave Richard Hauck a drawing of the remains of one particular structure on the western side of the Khor, he was thunderstruck. Hauck had extensively studied Solomon’s Temple, the Tabernacle in the Wilderness, and similar structures in Central America, so he recognized immediately what he was looking at. He had eyes to see what no other casual observer could have noticed.

What was drawn was the outline of a sanctuary for worship with an architectural footprint and a layout that correlated directly with Solomon’s Temple. It appears in every way to be the remains of a Hebrew sanctuary. In that trip and the ones to follow to Khor Kharfot, Hauck carefully studied the specific site where this drawing had been made.

He could see from the remains left behind that the structure, which had once been there, employed the sacred concepts in measurement and design that had been built into Solomon’s Temple. In fact, he found 14 correlations that lined up with not only Solomon’s Temple, but two temple sites where he had worked on site in Central America. (Meridian will feature an article tomorrow from Richard Hauck talking in detail about the sanctuary site.)

As an archaeologist, Hauck found himself moving from thinking that Kharfot was a possible site for Nephi’s Bountiful, to believing it to be probable. Who but a prophet would have built a sanctuary for his family’s worship that so specifically incorporated all of the sacred concepts evident in Solomon’s Temple?
Check out the interaction of Hauck with the Omani government officials who cornered him on revealing his hidden agenda:
The Plot Thickens

On Nov. 8, 2015, Hauck and archaeologist, Kimball Banks, met in two meetings with Omani officials. In the first were key people to approve the dig, Dr. Said Alsalmi, the Director General for the Advisor’s Office for Cultural Affairs and Hassan Al-Jaberi, the Director of Archaeological Sites. All of the Omanis, of course, were dressed in their traditional Omani garb, white robes and head wraps.

Hauck and Banks gave an overall presentation about the archaeological importance of the Khor Kharfot region to the cultural history of Oman. They went over various research factors and the Omanis agreed that each one was important.

They said the final decision about the permit would not drag on into the future, but would be made that very day and all looked favorable. Then came a surprise when Said said they would shortly be meeting with the Sultan’s Advisor, His Excellency Al Rowas.

Just as they were leaving for this meeting Hassan asked a question, which totally dumbfounded Hauck. He said he had some confusion about whether there was actually one or two prophets. Were Nephi and Lehi two prophets or one? This couldn’t have been more of a surprise since the Book of Mormon hadn’t come up at all as a topic of discussion in their meeting.

That was all about to change.

His Excellency’s first question was something to the effect, “What is it you wish to accomplish in coming to Oman?” Hauck began to give him the overview of the Khor Kharfot Archaeological District, evaluating Paleolithic, Neolilthic through Bronze and Iron Age occupations in the Middle East.

His Excellency was clearly not pleased and said that Hauck had really not answered the question he had asked in several ways. “You have not come all this way and expense to study frankincense trade? We know what has been happening at Khor Kharfot. If you do not respond to this question our interview will be immediately terminated.”

Hauck wrote, “As I realized what the advisor was asking for, I immediately concluded that I should give him what he sought even though it might cost us our opportunity for obtaining permission to work at Khor Kharfot. I knew that explaining to them the Mormon connection to Oman—that Khor Kharfot is a viable candidate for the lost land of Bountiful where a ship was constructed by ancient Book of Mormon prophets—might even get us kicked out of the country. Concluding that being transparent about our research intentions was the only chance we had to be successful in this endeavor, I dove into the seething cauldron.

“Taking a deep breath I stated, I am a Mormon. but Drs. Kimball Banks and Linda Cummings are not Mormons and therefore they are not interested in the Mormon connection at Khor Kharfot.” I continued by stating that because of this fundamental but necessary difference, we, as professionals work in two layers. One layer is the general overall research plan that needs to be undertaken in order to understand the temporal and spatial cultural context for the KK district. And the other layer, which as Mormons we superimpose over the first, relates to the purpose we Mormons have for wanting to do archaeological and environmental research at KK.
Nephi's Bountiful

Dr. Ric Hauck and crew head into Nephi’s Bountiful three expeditions ago. The site is most easily accessible by sea.

“I went on to outline that Lehi’s small extended family fleeing oppression trekked from Jerusalem southward along the Frankincense caravan route to Nahom in what is today Yemen, and then they turned directly east and continued to the coast of the Arabian Sea in the present state of Oman. That heading brought them directly to the Khor Kharfot area. I mentioned that for a short period, estimated from two to four years, that they were there on the Omani coast building a ship which was used to carry them across the sea to the Americas.

“I concluded by relating how Nephi, in his writings continually refers to the journey of his family from their certain destruction in Jerusalem to freedom in the Promised Land of the New World and likens that trek to the mass movement of Moses and his people from bondage in Egypt into freedom in the Promised Land of Palestine.”

This is what the Advisor to the Sultan wanted to hear. Then he asked another key question. Hauck said, “He wondered whether we had found any actual evidence of the earlier Book of Mormon visitors to Khor Kharfot? The Spirit was very strong and I knew that I should go-for-broke.

“I replied saying, ‘Yes, we do have some evidence that might relate to the short period Lehi and Nephi resided at Khor Kharfot.’ While making that statement, I extracted the plan view drawing of the Sanctuary Site and laid it out before the Omanis. I explained that this structure appeared to represent a place of worship. Its architecture and its measurements both being completely consistent with those of Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem and also with several other ancient temple complexes where I have worked in Central America.
Last edited by larsenb on December 2nd, 2016, 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

larsenb
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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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Another article from LDSLiving: Photos of the Dig at Nephi's Bountiful (+ Artifacts Found) at: http://www.ldsliving.com/Photos-of-the- ... nd/s/81470" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Extract:
Photos from the dig at what LDS archaeologists think is Nephi's Bountiful has uncovered several small treasures. See was it's like digging at Khor Kharfot and see what has been uncovered with over 30 photos from Meridian Magazine. Here's just a taste:

We are all curious to know what might have been left behind at Nephi’s Bountiful. It wasn’t until November 8, 2015 that the gracious Omani government granted a permit to be able to dig for the first time at Khor Kharfot. This truly sounds like exotic work, daily boat rides into a remote beach on the Arabian Sea and hiking up to an area with an ancient sanctuary. Admittedly it is very exotic, but it is also just plain dirty work. We will be offering some of these dirty positions to Meridian readers in future expeditions. Stay tuned. For now, come with us and get a real visual on the work that has been started at this, the very best candidate for Bountiful where Nephi built the ship.
Another one: The Discovery of a Sanctuary in Nephi's Bountiful & What It Could Mean: http://www.ldsliving.com/The-Discovery- ... an/s/81453" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
LDS archaeologists are now at work digging at the site that is most likely to be the land of Bountiful from the Book of Mormon. Find out their most recent updates and exciting findings. To learn more about their project, click here.

On our trips to Khor Kharfot, the best candidate for Bountiful, we used to wonder, did Nephi and his family leave anything behind here, and, of course, the immediate answer was, ‘no.’ How could it, in any way, be likely? They perhaps lived here only three or four years while they built a ship. . . . The Lehites were one small family of somewhere between 30 to 40 people, who came, lived here alone and went.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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I don't know about the temple. Nephi states he went up to the mount oft to pray, and built his ship. I don't see a temple anywhere in there.

larsenb
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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

Post by larsenb »

JohnnyL wrote:I don't know about the temple. Nephi states he went up to the mount oft to pray, and built his ship. I don't see a temple anywhere in there.

The 'structure' has been described more as a sanctuary, defined perhaps by an outline of rocks, perhaps tented over, such as the ancient tabernacle; proportional to Solomon's temple, but much, much smaller.

According to the articles, Ric discovered 14 correspondences between the 'sanctuary' and Solomon's temple. Outside of proportional dimensions, I'm not sure what the other 13 criteria may be.

Regarding no such sanctuary being described in 1 Nephi, doesn't mean they didn't have something like that. We would simply have to see why Ric thinks it is a 'sanctuary' and wait on what may be revealed via appropriate archaeological analysis of the site.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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This is so cool! I hope something interesting is discovered as a result of the search.

larsenb
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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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For anyone interested, here are a bunch of links to articles and videos having to do with the Lehi group's travels from Jerusalem to the first land of Bountiful, and with the Khor Kharfot site in Oman as actually being Nephi's Bountiful. Some of them are links already posted above.

I would highly recommend the video: Journey Of Faith - Book of Mormon Documentary, narrated by the late Truman Madsen and others. It is quite long, but very informative and delves into a lot of issues and interesting speculation about the travels of Lehi's group to the land of promise.

List of Meridian articles, several Khor Kharfot-related short videos and one very excellent video on the entire Lehi sojourn to Bountiful narrated by Truman Madsen, et al.,

- Major Announcement: Omanis Grant Permission to Dig at Nephi’s Bountiful
By Scot and Maurine Proctor · February 10, 2016 : http://ldsmag.com/major-announcement-om ... bountiful/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Nephi's Bountiful Part I - Meridian Magazine : http://ldsmag.com/day-1-biggest-team-ev ... bountiful/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Nephi's Bountiful Part II - Meridian Magazine: http://ldsmag.com/day-2-was-there-a-hol ... bountiful/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- What is it Really Like to Dig at Nephi’s Bountiful in Oman? (Photo Essay): http://ldsmag.com/photoessay/i-dig-bountiful-in-oman/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

- Journey Of Faith - Book of Mormon Documentary https://youtu.be/i_M_Faw_s3s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . This one is quite long but is REALLY good and is narrated by Dr. Truman Madsen and his wife, Ann N. Madsen, Dr. S. Kent Brown, Dr. William J. Hamblin, Dr. Daniel Peterson, Dr. John W. Welch, Jo Anne H. Seely, etc.

- Chad Aston has been coming to Khor Kharfot for more than 20 years and his father, Warren, who has been going to the area for an even longer period of time. Chad recently produced a DVD called Lehi in Arabia that delves into the findings of his father, primarily. To see a trailer, get more information and/or purchase this DVD, please click here: http://www.lehiinarabia.com/p/blog-page_8.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Proceeds will go to the Khor Kharfot Foundation to help furher research of this site. Warren Aston, BTW, is the one who discovered the existence of Nahom in present day Yemen.

Various short YouTube videos from Khor Kharfot:

Nephi's Bountiful - Tics and Leopards: https://youtu.be/oMlpk9gPhvk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - Going "into the mountain": https://youtu.be/c32z-Wfu_80" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - Exploring the Caves: https://youtu.be/yEWucoMvyQ8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - Former Occupations at Khor Karfot: https://youtu.be/GXmpOZosqvs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - Speculating just for Fun: https://youtu.be/ZVO-tyBEXCk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - Some Initial Archaeological Assessments: https://youtu.be/zlmCQErl-IE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - The Mound: https://youtu.be/RxmXg4ZHrjo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - What They Left Behind: https://youtu.be/TRrl4EKxxhA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
1 Nephi 17 Comes Alive at Nephi's Bountiful: https://youtu.be/TxuvHwVdJXk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Did Nephi build a sanctuary at Bountiful? https://youtu.be/kW3BsRNR2uY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - Where to Find Ore? https://youtu.be/gfN-lCiJ5Js" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - Growing Crops: https://youtu.be/jtIHOx6Ejsc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - The Double Rows of Stones: https://youtu.be/SbdfsZCCSNI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - Looking at possible occupations at Khor Karfot: https://youtu.be/fFl6A-oKViU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - A Fragile Environment: https://youtu.be/bJVrs4hPYxA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - Looking for Patterns: https://youtu.be/8BgauNnW71s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - What We Hope to Learn: https://youtu.be/cJAtVnyajnw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - A Remote Location Prepared by the Lord: https://youtu.be/ulFjbh7_yOY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - Searching for the Best Candidate: https://youtu.be/QZdGss1PYRk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - Rock art in the overhang: https://youtu.be/v87QVamHRIw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful - Types of rock art: https://youtu.be/irHiydAYL0k" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nephi's Bountiful in The Book of Mormon: https://youtu.be/mihAVO1R-GA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by larsenb on November 28th, 2016, 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jesef
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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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Seems like parallelomania to me. This isn't legitimate or convincing archeology or archeological evidence.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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Jesef wrote:Seems like parallelomania to me. This isn't legitimate or convincing archeology or archeological evidence.
What isn't legitimate or convincing archaeology or archaeological evidence? You need to be more specific to make any kind of legitimate case.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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Barely descriptive passages from a text, the Book of Mormon, being matched with potential geographical locations. That's not real archeology and it's not convincing or confirmatory to anyone but the already believing - i.e. "confirmation bias." Place names and artifacts, language, inscriptions - I'm not going to give a complete dissertation on what archeology is, but those are pretty important elements of it. Even the "NHM" inscription is weak. Setting confirmation bias aside, this is the truth - i.e. this is how an unbiased and rational observer would see these things. Even Biblical archeologists have a much higher standard for linking places/locations with ones named in the Bible. It makes us look like we are grasping for straws with the Book of Mormon. I'm LDS - I would like nothing better than to find solid archeological evidence that confirms the Book of Mormon. But not at the expense of objectivity. It just makes us look like irrational fanatics who don't know what evidence is.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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Jesef wrote:Barely descriptive passages from a text, the Book of Mormon, being matched with potential geographical locations. That's not real archeology and it's not convincing or confirmatory to anyone but the already believing - i.e. "confirmation bias." Place names and artifacts, language, inscriptions - I'm not going to give a complete dissertation on what archeology is, but those are pretty important elements of it. Even the "NHM" inscription is weak. Setting confirmation bias aside, this is the truth - i.e. this is how an unbiased and rational observer would see these things. Even Biblical archeologists have a much higher standard for linking places/locations with ones named in the Bible. It makes us look like we are grasping for straws with the Book of Mormon. I'm LDS - I would like nothing better than to find solid archeological evidence that confirms the Book of Mormon. But not at the expense of objectivity. It just makes us look like irrational fanatics who don't know what evidence is.
Good grief Jesef.

You still need to be more specific. Just saying the NHM inscription is weak says nothing. You have to say why you believe this, and give the evidence for your belief.

Some very specific directions were given by Nephi in his first book . . . enough to create a reasonable model. Watch the Truman Madsen narrated video: Journey Of Faith - Book of Mormon Documentary https://youtu.be/i_M_Faw_s3s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to get an idea that this is a correct statement, and rebut it if you can.

These people are simply saying that there is strong evidence from the Book of Mormon that the route depicted in the Madsen video is likely the one taken by the Lehi group.

For instance, the last trip of Nephi and the boys up to the Jerusalem area was to get Ishmael and his family; mainly to provide wives for Lehi’s sons. Some of the women gave birth about the time their father, Ishmael, died at the place called Nahom. This is pretty good evidence that it took at least 9 months for the group to travel that far . . . . which was down the coast of the Red Sea.

At this point they turned due east. Now, if they were on the West Coast of the Red Sea, turning East would require them to go through the Red Sea duplicating Moses’ feat, or into the South Arabian Sea.

And if you track a line due east from the point Nahom, you come out very close to where Khor Kharfot is located . . . . which, by the way, has all the characteristics described by Nephi for the Land of Bountiful by the seashore . . . or as interpreted, Irreantum.

All these folks are saying is that according to the description of the route taken by the Lehites in the Book of Mormon, Khor Kharfot is closest they have found that fits the bill.

The Khor Kharfot Foundation is simply funding research to see what more they can learn about this location, and whether they can find anything else in the area that confirms the hypothesis.

This isn’t confirmation bias. It is a reasonable approach to test a particular hypothesis, which already exhibits strong evidence supporting the idea that it was the original Land of Bountiful.

Give me your strong arguments against what I have just said.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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Lehi and his family were one little band, camping & traveling, and possibly trying to avoid detection, at least initially. They seem to have left no permanent trace of their passage or existence in the old world, no structures, no lengthy inscriptions, they built a boat out of wood that also would not have lasted. We've had a hard enough time finding anything of convincing substance in the new world where they are supposed to have made records, had language, a thousand year civilization, and millions of artifact-generating inhabitants. It's not that exciting that they've found a "plausible route" to the Arabian Sea that fits some of Nephi's cursory descriptions of their 8-year trek from Jerusalem. In 8 years they could have gone to China and back, really. It absolutely is confirmation bias if you think this would be convincing evidence to a non-believer or much less, a scientist or archeologist. Plausible, that's all it is. No artifacts, no language or records or lengthy inscriptions, and thus no place names. No hard evidence. Like it or not. That's my point. On "plausible route" to fit not-very-descriptive narrative, we can agree. How excited we each get over that is a matter of personal perspective I guess. I certainly respect your right and view to be excited.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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I'm pretty sure someone would have to find "Laman was here" chiseled in the rocks before anyone outside of the church would take any of this seriously.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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Or how about "Zarahemla" in something Hebrew-like or Egyptian-like? Or a bunch of stuff in Hebrew-ish or Egyptian-ish writing (even if we didn't have a pronunciation guide)? Or other metal plates, with just regular history stuff on them? Or metal swords, armor, and other stuff from the Book of Mormon, that is currently considered anachronistic. A healthy sample of language and written or inscribed material would be the best, though. Aztec and Mayan bear no resemblance to Hebrew or Egyptian. But they, very well, may not be linked at all anyway (doesn't help the Mesoamerican geography theory, in my opinion). Not much found in the Heartland yet either.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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Jesef wrote:Lehi and his family were one little band, camping & traveling, and possibly trying to avoid detection, at least initially. They seem to have left no permanent trace of their passage or existence in the old world, no structures, no lengthy inscriptions, they built a boat out of wood that also would not have lasted. We've had a hard enough time finding anything of convincing substance in the new world where they are supposed to have made records, had language, a thousand year civilization, and millions of artifact-generating inhabitants. It's not that exciting that they've found a "plausible route" to the Arabian Sea that fits some of Nephi's cursory descriptions of their 8-year trek from Jerusalem. In 8 years they could have gone to China and back, really. It absolutely is confirmation bias if you think this would be convincing evidence to a non-believer or much less, a scientist or archeologist. Plausible, that's all it is. No artifacts, no language or records or lengthy inscriptions, and thus no place names. No hard evidence. Like it or not. That's my point. On "plausible route" to fit not-very-descriptive narrative, we can agree. How excited we each get over that is a matter of personal perspective I guess. I certainly respect your right and view to be excited.
First of all, it’s not 'being excited'. It’s being impressed with the evidence, which you totally sidestep. I don’t mean to be insulting but you’ve totally ignored the evidence for their route I mentioned in my last post. What we are talking about is their route and where they ended up to build a boat. Nothing else.

Taking statements about their route seriously is NOT confirmation bias. You seem to be confused about that term. I’ll be curious if you can both define the term and then show how it applies to what they are doing.

But let me state again: the site they are looking at has been found to be the most probable site based on both Nephi's description of the route and his description of the locale where they built their boat. They are doing further research at the site to see what else may be there that would confirm the hypothesis. This is called science, about which you seem to be rather confused.

And this hypothesis is being investigated in its own right, with little expectation that it would convince anyone else . . . especially anyone who does not believe in the Book of Mormon.

Regarding ‘artifacts’, including language, and other evidence, you are speaking about something I dare say you know nothing about. Why be so arrogant about this subject? One could make the case that you are the one exercising confirmation bias in favor of your null hypothesis.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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Once again, to get a better idea of the route, watch the Truman Madsen narrated video: Journey Of Faith - Book of Mormon Documentary https://youtu.be/i_M_Faw_s3s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . Or have you done it yet??

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

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Oh dear. It is aptly named, a journey of faith - and a plausible journey, too - I'll give you that. Enjoy it, larsenb. Carry on and peace to you as well.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

Post by larsenb »

Jesef wrote:Oh dear. It is aptly named, a journey of faith - and a plausible journey, too - I'll give you that. Enjoy it, larsenb. Carry on and peace to you as well.
Jesef leaves the field having done nothing to support his contentions. Oh well. Easy come, easy go.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

Post by larsenb »

Jesef wrote:Or how about "Zarahemla" in something Hebrew-like or Egyptian-like? Or a bunch of stuff in Hebrew-ish or Egyptian-ish writing (even if we didn't have a pronunciation guide)? Or other metal plates, with just regular history stuff on them? Or metal swords, armor, and other stuff from the Book of Mormon, that is currently considered anachronistic. A healthy sample of language and written or inscribed material would be the best, though. Aztec and Mayan bear no resemblance to Hebrew or Egyptian. But they, very well, may not be linked at all anyway (doesn't help the Mesoamerican geography theory, in my opinion). Not much found in the Heartland yet either.
Since Jesef has left the thread, I just wanted to point out that the things he is mentioning above, which he apparently thinks would be the type of evidence which he would accept for substantiating the Lehite route and location of Nephi's first Land of Bountiful, would only have a chance of being found by someone on the ground looking for such or similar things.

This is what the Khor Kharfot Foundation is engaged in.

Others working with this group are studying the Jabali language, which at this point is an unwritten language, and is spoken by the 'Arabs' who have lived in the Khor Kharfot region for hundreds if not thousands of years. They are known as the Jabalies (people of the mountains). Already the individual studying this language has turned up something directly supportive of the Book of Mormon story of the Lehites journey to their Bountiful.

You don't find the things Jesef desires without a lot of hard work; and the logical place to start is with a plausible working hypothesis, which the description of the Lehites journey from Jerusalem provides. Has NOTHING to do with confirmation bias.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

Post by larsenb »

Jesef wrote: . . . . A healthy sample of language and written or inscribed material would be the best, though. Aztec and Mayan bear no resemblance to Hebrew or Egyptian. . . . . .
With this assertion, Jesef really stuck his neck out, apparently having no knowledge of Dr. Brian Stubbs' recent publication of his studies confirming a very strong correlation between the Uto-Aztecan languages and ancient Hebrew and Egyptian (and other Semitic languages). Dr. Stubbs found a 1500 cognate correlation between these two linguistic groups.

He also said that the Uto-Aztecan languages had more Hebrew-related words than Yiddish.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

Post by Jesef »

I actually found and ordered a copy of Brian Stubbs' 436-page "Exploring the Explanatory Power of Semitic and Egyptian in Uto-Aztecan" - I hope it gets peer-reviewed at some point. Preliminary research yielded some positive and some negative. Apparently it is organized using the linguistic standard of the comparative method, so hopefully some other unbiased linguists can help validate his comparisons and analyses. So far it seems based on spoken words only. I haven't found any credible scholarly research that correlates any written language, such as Hebrew script or Egyptian hieroglyphics, with any New World writing - like Mayan or Aztecan, etc. If anyone is aware of anything of that nature, please share. So, if a place was called "Zarahemla" and Joseph's translation was phonetic, they haven't found a place name that corresponds to that anywhere. Place names are important in archeology. I'm not an archeology or linguistics expert, so I'm relying on what experts in those fields have said on the subject.

larsenb, apologetics, by its very nature, almost always involves a pretty heavy confirmation bias - "A psychological phenomenon that explains why people tend to seek out information that confirms their existing opinions and overlook or ignore information that refutes their beliefs" - because apologetics, by definition, is a "defense" of the faith (the assumption being that it and its claims are true). I know, in part, because I've experienced it - and used to engage heavily in apologetics. But as someone who has quite a bit of scientific training (hard sciences, granted, math, physics, computer science, and data analytics), I can say that working backwards from a conclusion - looking for evidence to support a conclusion - such as: the Book of Mormon is a true historical record; one loses some of that pure scientific objectivity. If you can't admit that, you are not completely self-aware or entirely intellectually honest. I don't mean to offend you. You seem zealous, judging by your reactions to my comments - jabbing and sort of insulting. That's okay. But try to suspend your emotional investment in the information and what it could mean, for a moment. This is hard to do - so much is riding on certain things being true - especially in the apologetics bubble. If you take a step back and try to look at all of this from an outsider's or an unbiased scientist's perspective, for instance, you might see things a bit differently - and this is good for the intellect, to divest enough to be able to see more than one side of an issue or a hypothesis, to be able to honestly consider another point of view. You have to stop defending for a moment to do this. So just try to consider it for a moment: Lehi and his family basically traveling on foot, or with camels, and tents, and camping along the spice trail from Jerusalem to Khor Kharfot over the course of 8 years (or whatever). One family, 2600 years ago, in desert climates, leaving little or no trace, and no artifacts or inscriptions. What are the chances of finding conclusive or convincing evidence of this trek? Very likely none. Just consider any other such similar trek from so long ago for comparison. Is the Book of Mormon narrative and description of that journey plausible? Sure. Nephi's descriptions are just not specific or detailed enough to be meaningful in proving locations. Is "NHM" a strong piece of evidence that it is the same place Nahom mentioned in 1 Nephi 16:34? Not really, not to an objective observer/investigator. If it had also some burial inscription for a guy named Ishmael from the correct time period, it might mean more. There's just too many possibilities for what NHM can be derived from. No correlation. No one considers this archeological evidence of the historicity of the Book of Mormon except Mormon apologists or believers. Hence confirmation bias.

Anyway, my other point is that rather than look for archeological evidence of one tiny family's 8-year camping trek across the desert 2600 years ago, we should have much better chances of finding inscriptions, artifacts, and plentiful archeological evidence of cities and civilizations and other grand things mentioned in the BoM over here, in the new world, where Jaredites and Lehites are supposed to have multiplied in the millions. We apparently are having difficulty doing that even, unfortunately. Perhaps not enough resources have been dedicated, as you said. The idea that God is hiding the archeological evidence, like the brass plates, or other books and records, seems preposterous.

Again, I would be as excited as anyone if we found some real, solid, objective archeological evidence that validates the BoM with specific detail. Truly. Also, again, I do not mean to offend you (or anyone). Peace.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

Post by larsenb »

Jesef wrote:I actually found and ordered a copy of Brian Stubbs' 436-page "Exploring the Explanatory Power of Semitic and Egyptian in Uto-Aztecan" - I hope it gets peer-reviewed at some point. Preliminary research yielded some positive and some negative. Apparently it is organized using the linguistic standard of the comparative method, so hopefully some other unbiased linguists can help validate his comparisons and analyses. So far it seems based on spoken words only. I haven't found any credible scholarly research that correlates any written language, such as Hebrew script or Egyptian hieroglyphics, with any New World writing - like Mayan or Aztecan, etc. If anyone is aware of anything of that nature, please share. So, if a place was called "Zarahemla" and Joseph's translation was phonetic, they haven't found a place name that corresponds to that anywhere. Place names are important in archeology. I'm not an archeology or linguistics expert, so I'm relying on what experts in those fields have said on the subject.

larsenb, apologetics, by its very nature, almost always involves a pretty heavy confirmation bias - "A psychological phenomenon that explains why people tend to seek out information that confirms their existing opinions and overlook or ignore information that refutes their beliefs" - because apologetics, by definition, is a "defense" of the faith (the assumption being that it and its claims are true). I know, in part, because I've experienced it - and used to engage heavily in apologetics. But as someone who has quite a bit of scientific training (hard sciences, granted, math, physics, computer science, and data analytics), I can say that working backwards from a conclusion - looking for evidence to support a conclusion - such as: the Book of Mormon is a true historical record; one loses some of that pure scientific objectivity. If you can't admit that, you are not completely self-aware or entirely intellectually honest. I don't mean to offend you. You seem zealous, judging by your reactions to my comments - jabbing and sort of insulting. That's okay. But try to suspend your emotional investment in the information and what it could mean, for a moment. This is hard to do - so much is riding on certain things being true - especially in the apologetics bubble. If you take a step back and try to look at all of this from an outsider's or an unbiased scientist's perspective, for instance, you might see things a bit differently - and this is good for the intellect, to divest enough to be able to see more than one side of an issue or a hypothesis, to be able to honestly consider another point of view. You have to stop defending for a moment to do this. So just try to consider it for a moment: Lehi and his family basically traveling on foot, or with camels, and tents, and camping along the spice trail from Jerusalem to Khor Kharfot over the course of 8 years (or whatever). One family, 2600 years ago, in desert climates, leaving little or no trace, and no artifacts or inscriptions. What are the chances of finding conclusive or convincing evidence of this trek? Very likely none. Just consider any other such similar trek from so long ago for comparison. Is the Book of Mormon narrative and description of that journey plausible? Sure. Nephi's descriptions are just not specific or detailed enough to be meaningful in proving locations. Is "NHM" a strong piece of evidence that it is the same place Nahom mentioned in 1 Nephi 16:34? Not really, not to an objective observer/investigator. If it had also some burial inscription for a guy named Ishmael from the correct time period, it might mean more. There's just too many possibilities for what NHM can be derived from. No correlation. No one considers this archeological evidence of the historicity of the Book of Mormon except Mormon apologists or believers. Hence confirmation bias.

Anyway, my other point is that rather than look for archeological evidence of one tiny family's 8-year camping trek across the desert 2600 years ago, we should have much better chances of finding inscriptions, artifacts, and plentiful archeological evidence of cities and civilizations and other grand things mentioned in the BoM over here, in the new world, where Jaredites and Lehites are supposed to have multiplied in the millions. We apparently are having difficulty doing that even, unfortunately. Perhaps not enough resources have been dedicated, as you said. The idea that God is hiding the archeological evidence, like the brass plates, or other books and records, seems preposterous.

Again, I would be as excited as anyone if we found some real, solid, objective archeological evidence that validates the BoM with specific detail. Truly. Also, again, I do not mean to offend you (or anyone). Peace.
Good for you on ordering the Stubbs book. In fact Brian Stubbs said he gave copies of his book to 20-21 different non-Mormon linguist colleagues asking for comment. At the point I heard him talk about this, he said that 5 of them had replied and said they couldn’t fault his work. This isn’t a formal peer-review, but should be an indication Stubbs isn’t blowing smoke . . . . provided you believe him.

You could claim ‘confirmation bias’ and ‘apologetics for impelling many scientific investigations. The terms become meaningless as pejoratives unless qualified. For instance, there may have been some who were measuring the light of a star passing our sun during an eclipse, who did NOT believe in Einstein’s general theory of relativity and its implication that star light would be bent be gravitational forces.

Their starting position would be one of confirmation bias in favor of disproving the implications of the theory and could be judged as anti-apologetic towards the theory. Others, may have really believed in the theory and had a strong motivation to prove it. These could be called apologists for the theory, and their confirmation bias would be their belief that their observations would prove the predicted result.

Fortunately, their instrumentation came up with the same results, proving the influence of gravity on light . This is a benefit of the hard sciences.

But, if those who were anti-apologetic and had a bias to disprove the theory, persisted in misreading their instrumentation or denying it said what it said, they would be guilty of being seduced by their ‘anti-confirmation bias. This is where confirmation bias becomes a negative, detrimental condition.

Models can be very seductive. Especially predictive models. I think it was Karl Popper who observed that you can be trapped by a particular model to the point that you may not see contrary evidence . . . because it simply doesn’t fit your particular model

Now the idea that the Lehite group came south paralleling the Red Sea, then at a certain point turned east in their journeys until they came to the seashore, is NOT an opinion. In accepting this as a testable hypothesis, we are simply taking Nephi at his word. We have nothing else to go on.

And it is also a fact, that if you turn east at almost any point along their initial route, you will encounter the sea . . . but if you turn east too soon, you find yourself in the ‘Empty Quarter’, where it is almost impossible to survive unless you bring all your survival materials with you.

If you have them turning east at about the point of the alleged Nahom, they are largely able to avoid the Empty Quarter. And if this is the route they took, it further constrains where they would encounter the sea on the Omani or Yemeni coast.

So this is a testable hypothesis in terms of finding a place along this coast that best fits Nephi’s description of their Land of Bountiful. Khor Kharfot seems to be the best fit, even having honey bees and honey, along with all the other characteristics.

Apologetics?? You can’t avoid it, whether or not you are setting out to disprove the Book of Mormon (an anti-apologetic stance) or to find confirming evidence in its support (apologetic stance). Regarding anti-apologetics, you’re not going to find many people, if any, who would be willing to expend the time, energy and expense (logistics are formidable) to disprove something they already disbelieve in. Just ain’t going to happen.

And what you describe as “working backwards from a conclusion” is really a distortion of what the Khor Kharfot investigators have done or are doing. Your ‘conclusion’ is actually their working hypothesis. Absolutely legitimate to view it this way. Also, they aren’t saying what they have found ‘proves’ anything in an absolute manner. They are saying that Khor Kharfot has all the characteristics of being the best probable location for Nephi’s Bountiful. And they have searched all up and down the Omani-Yemeni coastlines for this fit.

And you give no offense to me. On the other hand you seem to be very confused about the term apologetics and confirmation bias, ascribing what I see as absolute, pejorative meanings to these terms, etc.

I'm “Jabbing and sort of insulting”? Me thinks you’re too sensitive. How jabbing and insulting have you been in the insinuations and innuendo you are attempting to foist on the Khor Kharfot effort and those engage in it?? Projection??

You’ve still not provided evidence for your contention that NHM is a rather meaningless inscription; and have provided no context at all for your contention.

And again, you still don’t seem to have a clear understanding of the whole Khor Kharfot project. One isn't going to find ‘conclusive or convincing evidence of this trek', unless one looks. They are investigating the location of Khor Kharfot, in part, for this very purpose.

Try to understand this: the investigators have discovered the Khor Kharfot location has essentially all the characteristics Nephi used to describe their newly found Land of Bountiful. This should at least be moderately compelling to even a skeptic such as yourself . . . . if you are being intellectually honest.

From your final word, you should be moderately excited by Brian Stubbs work. This happens to be some real, solid, objective linguistic evidence that indirectly supports the story of the Book of Mormon.
Last edited by larsenb on December 6th, 2016, 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

Post by larsenb »

I just want to see this get more coverage on the front page of LDSFF posting forum.

Jesef, where are you?

One thing Truman Madsen said in the video: Journey Of Faith - Book of Mormon Documentary https://youtu.be/i_M_Faw_s3s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , was that Joseph Smith predicted that if one were to live into the next century (and I assume he may have meant beyond the next century, as well), they would see many direct evidences of the Book of Mormon come forth.

I think the work of Brian Stubbs and the discovery and study of the Khor Kharfot Bountiful location could be included in the evidences Joseph was referring to.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

Post by larsenb »

In earlier posts, Jesef has said:
“Even the "NHM" inscription is weak”. He further says: “Is "NHM" a strong piece of evidence that it is the same place Nahom mentioned in 1 Nephi 16:34? Not really, not to an objective observer/investigator. If it had also some burial inscription for a guy named Ishmael from the correct time period, it might mean more. There's just too many possibilities for what NHM can be derived from. No correlation."
Here is information that refutes Jesef’s assertions. Taken from Chad Aston’s DVD called Lehi in Arabia, which documents the work of his father, Warren, on this issue.

First, Warren found several maps and artifacts showing Nehem as both a place name, a name of mountains, and a local Tribal group in the same region of Yemen. The significance of these finds is that he was not able to find that name anywhere else on the Arabian Peninsula.

Further more, the present-day interpretation of the name is: “a place of mourning, complaining and hunger. Hundreds of burial sites cover the hills where the local Nehem tribe lives to this day”. A direct hit with the meaning Nephi assigned to Nahom.

Also, the region with this name is exactly where the Lehite group would have had to turn east, if they were to largely avoid the Empty Quarter.

Here are some images taken from the video that illustrate these finds:

Map of large area encompassing the turning point of the Lehite group:
Map1a - Nahom.JPG
Map1a - Nahom.JPG (39.19 KiB) Viewed 4124 times
Close up of the same area showing the word Nehem, which appears to be in association with the name, Haulan :
Map1b - Nahom.JPG
Map1b - Nahom.JPG (80.26 KiB) Viewed 4124 times
Another map of the same region show the name, Nehem (Nahom):
Map2 Nahom.JPG
Map2 Nahom.JPG (65.08 KiB) Viewed 4124 times
The problem with Warren’s earlier finds of Nehem/Nahom is that the oldest one dated to only 100 AD. Nothing back as far as 600 BC.

But in 1997, the German Archaeological Institute finished a 9 year study of a Baharan temple site near Marab in Yemen. The inscriptions from this temple date to about 900 BC. In 2000-2001, Warren and colleagues found several inscriptions containing the three independent letters NHM there, including one located on the rim of an alter.
Last edited by larsenb on November 30th, 2016, 3:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

Post by larsenb »

Two more images showing Nehem (Nahom), one showing the tribal area of the Nehem tribe; the other showing the Nehem Hills. The tribe and the hills are in the same region as depicted in the maps in my previous post:
Nehem Tribal Area.JPG
Nehem Tribal Area.JPG (62.79 KiB) Viewed 4120 times
Nehem Hills.JPG
Nehem Hills.JPG (39.61 KiB) Viewed 4120 times

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Re: Khor Kharfot, Oman as Nephi's Bountiful - Richard Hauck

Post by Todd »

Finding the name NHM in an area that corresponds to Lehi's journey is significant -- to a believing Mormon. But it does not fit into the anti-mormon narrative that Joseph Smith just made up the whole thing and that there is not a shred of evidence that supports his 19th century Christian fan fiction book.

Therefore, the anti's will dismiss ANYTHING as coincidence or insignificant in order to keep their world upright.

Unless you dig up a grave that says: "Ishmael, friend of Lehi, was buried here after he fled Jerusalem" don't expect people like Jesef to be impressed.

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