Always Submit to the Church Administration

[Mark]

I think we can agree, that the basics of the "doctrine of christ" are as follows:
-believe in Jesus 3Ne11:32-35
-repent 2Ne31:11,13-14,17 3Ne11:23,32,37
-follow Jesus 2Ne31:10,12-13,16
-keep the commandments 2Ne31:10,14
-be baptized 2Ne31:6,11-14,17 3Ne11:33-34,37-38
-receieve the Holy Ghost 2Ne31:13-14,17-18 3Ne11:35
-feast upon the words of Christ 2Ne31:20
-endure to the end 2Ne31:15-16,20


At first blush this seems to leave out church/men etc, but on deeper analysis, it doesn't.
REPENT: repent of what? All of the commandments are elevated into the doctrine of Christ by this provision.
FOLLOW JESUS: how
-keep the commandments of the father 2Ne31:10
-baptism 2Ne31:13
KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS: which commandments? All commandments are elevated into the doctrine of christ by this provision.
BE BAPTIZED: how? In his way by one having authority:

21 And the Lord said unto him: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven.

22 And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you.
...
25 Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

-priesthood organization is elevated into the doctrine of christ in order to properly fulfill the baptism provision.


RECIEVE THE HOLY GHOST: how?

13 Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, according to the holy commandment, for the remission of sins;

14 And whoso doeth this shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of the hands of the elders of the church.

1 The words of Christ, which he spake unto his disciples, the twelve whom he had chosen, as he laid his hands upon them—

2 And he called them by name, saying: Ye shall call on the Father in my name, in mighty prayer; and after ye have done this ye shall have power that to him upon whom ye shall lay your hands, ye shall give the Holy Ghost; and in my name shall ye give it, for thus do mine apostles.

3 Now Christ spake these words unto them at the time of his first appearing; and the multitude heard it not, but the disciples heard it; and on as many as they laid their hands, fell the Holy Ghost.

-priesthood organization and church are elevated into the doctrine of christ in order to properly fulfill the holy ghost provision.


FEAST UPON THE WORDS OF CHRIST: which words?

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

-feasting on all words of christ through himself or his servants is elevated into the doctrine of christ by this provision


These points I have made are NOT ADDING TO THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST, but only properly applying them according to his own pronouncements.

Thank you brainiac. Great points. The bestowal of Priesthood Keys and authority are vital in this process of helping the body of Christ fulfill the doctrine of Christ. Watchmen must be present and active in their ordained stewardship responsibility to protect the innocent from the wolves who seek to divide.

D&C 46:27
D&C 52:14-18
D&C 43: 2-6
D&C 42:11
Etc etc etc

[Finrock]

I think we can agree, that the basics of the "doctrine of christ" are as follows:
-believe in Jesus 3Ne11:32-35
-repent 2Ne31:11,13-14,17 3Ne11:23,32,37
-follow Jesus 2Ne31:10,12-13,16
-keep the commandments 2Ne31:10,14
-be baptized 2Ne31:6,11-14,17 3Ne11:33-34,37-38
-receieve the Holy Ghost 2Ne31:13-14,17-18 3Ne11:35
-feast upon the words of Christ 2Ne31:20
-endure to the end 2Ne31:15-16,20

I appreciate your well thought out response. Thanks for the discussion!

Here is a reminder of what is being asserted...

It was asserted by eddie that "Whenever we choose to come unto Christ, AND follow His servants, we have used our agency wisely" (emphasis mine).

The provision, "follow His servants", is a falsehood perpetuated by tradition and a misunderstanding of the doctrine of Christ, and it comes of evil. This statement implies that one cannot come unto Christ without following His servants. At its most fundamental level, it makes coming unto Christ, contingent upon following the arm of flesh. It puts an intermediary between Christ and man. This contingency and this intermediary is false. I assert, and I have demonstrated it is supported by scripture, that Christ can be approached and we can come unto Christ without the need to follow any mortal. In a nutshell, or the point that I am speaking out against, is the idea that a mortal stands between another mortal and Christ. The statement, "follow His servants" places a mortal man as the gatekeeper to Christ. I denounce this false and damnable doctrine. It is an addition to the doctrine of Christ as taught by Jesus Christ.

We don't need to follow the servants of Jesus Christ in order to come unto Christ. I demonstrated how the doctrine of Christ as taught in the scriptures does not contain that thought but instead it clearly tells us to follow Jesus Christ. At no point did Jesus Christ follow the prophets. If he is our exemplar and He showed us the way, and following a prophet was necessary, then Christ would have left a record and had an example where He followed the prophet. But, this doesn't exist and it didn't happen. The person who lived perfectly and showed us perfectly what we should do, never followed a prophet and never commanded us to do so.

You have attempted to say that "upon deeper analyzes" it does contain these thoughts. However, I already addressed that point in my initial post by showing that Nephi and God were speaking in plainness. They were giving us the "straight dope" on the doctrine of Christ. The plain meaning of the scripture I provided does not contain the idea "follow the servants". Of course it can be added by "further analyses", but at that point it's no longer plain, its an extrapolation. In order to maintain your current belief, you must extrapolate that idea because the scripture does not plainly support it. This is a part of the error that I am exposing and speaking to. One thing that happens when it comes to scripture is that once a dogma or a creed is created, it must be supported somehow. If the scripture does not plainly support a particular dogma or creed, it must be extrapolated. When this extrapolation occurs you are in fact polluting the plain meaning and creating a new doctrine.

At first blush this seems to leave out church/men etc, but on deeper analysis, it doesn't.
REPENT: repent of what? All of the commandments are elevated into the doctrine of Christ by this provision.
FOLLOW JESUS: how
-keep the commandments of the father 2Ne31:10
-baptism 2Ne31:13
KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS: which commandments? All commandments are elevated into the doctrine of christ by this provision.

I think you are conflating the law and prophets with the commandments that are being addressed in those scriptures. The scripture tells us that the Father commands us to "repent" and to be baptized in the name of His Beloved Son. We are repenting of sin or repenting of our enmity. Being baptized is not just about having a physical ordinance performed, it necessarily entails being baptized by the Spirit. This is another way of saying, put away the carnal man and receive and take upon you a new Spirit, the Spirit of Christ. Or, in other words, receive the love of God in to your heart. To love God and others as yourself, including your enemies, is the great commandment being addressed here. This love cannot exist in a carnal heart. Your heart must be changed by baptism so that you can receive this love.

BE BAPTIZED: how? In his way by one having authority:

21 And the Lord said unto him: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven.

22 And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you.
...
25 Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

-priesthood organization is elevated into the doctrine of christ in order to properly fulfill the baptism provision.

You are implying that one must be baptized by a mortal who has authority. Although I agree that mortals can get permission and power to baptize and perform other ordinances through the power of the Holy Ghost, it is not necessary. Angels of God can baptize. God Himself baptized Adam. God doesn't need man in order to baptize. A person can be baptized by Heaven and Heavenly beings without any mortal needing to affirm or comply. You are adding the idea that a man stands as an intermediary between another man and God. A man, or a prophet, is a servant of the Mighty God to direct people to Jesus Christ. They don't stand as masters themselves that must be obeyed. In fact, a man only has authority and power in the priesthood if they have the Holy Ghost and if the Holy Ghost, it is not the mortal that is actually performing a work, it is the Spirit.

RECIEVE THE HOLY GHOST: how?

13 Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, according to the holy commandment, for the remission of sins;

14 And whoso doeth this shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, by the laying on of the hands of the elders of the church.

1 The words of Christ, which he spake unto his disciples, the twelve whom he had chosen, as he laid his hands upon them—

2 And he called them by name, saying: Ye shall call on the Father in my name, in mighty prayer; and after ye have done this ye shall have power that to him upon whom ye shall lay your hands, ye shall give the Holy Ghost; and in my name shall ye give it, for thus do mine apostles.

3 Now Christ spake these words unto them at the time of his first appearing; and the multitude heard it not, but the disciples heard it; and on as many as they laid their hands, fell the Holy Ghost.

-priesthood organization and church are elevated into the doctrine of christ in order to properly fulfill the holy ghost provision.

Again, you are erroneously taking the fact that because a mortal who has the Holy Spirit can perform an ordinance that this means that only a mortal who has authority can perform an ordinance or that Heaven cannot perform ordinances without the approval of the servants. Remember, the servants are servants, not masters. They get their authority from the Spirit, not by virtue of their position or title. God has hands, the Spirit has hands, angels have hands. Heaven doesn't need the permission of mortals in order to perform ordinances. Mortals needs the permission of Heaven to perform ordinances.

FEAST UPON THE WORDS OF CHRIST: which words?

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

-feasting on all words of christ through himself or his servants is elevated into the doctrine of christ by this provision


These points I have made are NOT ADDING TO THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST, but only properly applying them according to his own pronouncements.

You don't seem to recognize that the Words of Christ, are the Holy Spirit. Men receive the Words of Christ through the Spirit, but Heaven doesn't need mortals to speak for them. Mortals can receive the permission and power to speak through the power of the Holy Ghost, but at that point they are just vessels, not the Word. When we are baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, we get the tongue of angels. What is the tongue of angels? The Holy Spirit. What authorizes a prophet to speak in the name of God? The Holy Spirit. When a man or a woman or a small child or a babe is speaking by the Holy Spirit, it is the Spirit that is speaking and not a mortal. God's servants, be they mortal men made perfect or be they angels, speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. That is why it is the same, because the Spirit is the same, no matter which vessel it is speaking through, it is still God's voice.

That doesn't mean that whatever a servant speaks is from God and is the Spirit.

In all of your examples you have taken correct principles but then added the ideas that are erroneous. It is false that in order for a mortal to come to Christ they must go through some other mortal. Just because God has authorized some mortals to speak for Him and act in His name through the power of the Holy Ghost, doesn't mean that God is bound to work only through the mortals or that the mortals stand as gatekeepers. The doctrine, "follow the prophets" is extra scriptural. It is not a part of the doctrine of Christ as it is plainly revealed in the scriptures. God has all power and all authority. He can delegate that to whomever He wants to, but because He delegates, doesn't make the servant masters or does it somehow limit His power and His authority.

The scriptures plainly say that, "...every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am" (D&C 93:1). Nothing more is needed to come unto Christ than what He has spoken and "following His servants" is most assuredly an extra scriptural extrapolation created to support a tradition/creed/dogma.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

....
So, my brother eddie, if I only come unto Christ, and nothing else, I come to Him and follow Him, have I used my agency wisely?
....

"Come unto Christ" how? By being a fan? By having a little Jesus puppet in your head which you first command and then obey?

How is key. So how can anyone answer your question especially when you show signs of thinking it's all on your own terms? It sounds similar to the state of religion in Joseph Smith's day; everyone doing their own thing "let them join whatever sect they pleased"; and gaining so-called authority by personal effort, study, and whim.

Christ said, (and I paraphrase) "no, you guys need legit authority and legit clergy. Joseph, lets do this thing".

So I see your "come unto Christ" as an empty strawman waiting to be stuffed and posed by anyone who wants to. It's unfortunate really. "Coming to Christ" should mean, without any possibility of ambiguity, being in line with HIS HIS HIS dispensations. There is an individual internal, spiritual component to that, so you need have no worry that someone is going to be saved by going through the motions. Also I'm convinced being in line with a dispensation is not equated to giving up your agency or conscience to an earthly administrator.

Yes, it's gonna be super-key how you use your agency.

What the doctrine of Christ is can be found in 2 Nephi 31:2-21 and in 3 Nephi 11. These are my main sources for this post. All emphasis in quotes are mine.

In this chapter Nephi starts by promising to talk about the doctrine of Christ plainly. He also testifies that God works with plainness. To me, this means we can take these verses at face value and that what Nephi and what God is saying here is plain, or it is open, clear, not convoluted, or hidden. What we are reading here is plainly what the doctrine of Christ is and it is nothing more or nothing less than what we find in 2 Ne. 31 and 3 Nephi 11.

2 Wherefore, the things which I have written sufficeth me, save it be a few words which I must speak concerning the doctrine of Christ...

...

10 And he said unto the children of men: Follow thou me. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, can we follow Jesus save we shall be willing to keep the commandments of the Father?

11 And the Father said: Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son.

12 And also, the voice of the Son came unto me, saying: He that is baptized in my name, to him will the Father give the Holy Ghost, like unto me; wherefore, follow me, and do the things which ye have seen me do.

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

...

In these verses we have the doctrine of Christ in a nutshell. We are commanded to follow the Son, repeated three times. What is missing from the doctrine of Christ is any reference to following the Son's servants. It simply is not a requirement to being saved or to receiving a remission of your sins. The Father and the Son ask us to follow the Son. They do not command us nor ask us at any time, in language that is spoken plainly, to follow the servants.

So, the doctrine of Christ is to repent and be baptized in the name of the Son. If we follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of our sins, witnessing unto the Father that we are willing to take upon us the name of Christ, by baptism-by following the Lord and Savior down into the water, behold, after we do these things then shall we receive the Holy Ghost and then comes the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost and we shall speak with the tongue of angels and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

17 Wherefore, do the things which I have told you I have seen that your Lord and your Redeemer should do; for, for this cause have they been shown unto me, that ye might know the gate by which ye should enter. For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

...

21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

What we must do is plainly given to us and there is no other way or no other doctrine of Christ.

Jesus Christ affirms this doctrine later in the Book of Mormon when he visits the inhabitants in the Americas:

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.

32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

In plain and simple terms, the doctrine of Christ is to believe in Christ and to be baptized for the remission of sins and then shall you be saved. If we declare the doctrine of Christ to be more or less than the ideas expressed in these scriptures, and establish it as the doctrine of Christ, the same comes of evil, and is not built upon the rock of Christ.

In summary, the doctrine of Christ is to follow the Son with full purpose of heart, without hypocrisy, without deception, and with real intent repenting of our sins and then witnessing that we are willing to take upon us the name of Christ by being baptized by water. When we do this we will then be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, receiving a remission of our sins and becoming new creatures with new hearts and if we endure to the end, we shall be saved.

17...For the gate by which ye should enter is repentance and baptism by water; and then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. 18 And then are ye in this strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life; yea, ye have entered in by the gate; ye have done according to the commandments of the Father and the Son; and ye have received the Holy Ghost, which witnesses of the Father and the Son, unto the fulfilling of the promise which he hath made, that if ye entered in by the way ye should receive.

Let me close here with something that President Packer said concerning baptism so that all may have a true and complete understanding of baptism:

Missionaries sometimes think they are only to do half the work; they are to teach and then baptize by water, and that concludes their work. In many cases the other half, the teaching about the baptism of fire, never really gets done… Get that idea in your mind with those two fixed together so tightly that, as one, it becomes part of you. Then we will not have the first half done, as is often the case at present, and the other half left undone (Ensign, Aug 2006, p. 50).

What is missing is any reference to following the servants as a condition of coming unto Christ. According to the scriptures and the Holy prophets this addition to the doctrine of Christ is a damnable addition to the doctrine of Christ and it comes not of God, but of evil.

-Finrock

Finrock you are completely missing the purpose for which Christ established His church and called Prophets and Apostles to administer and minister in their stewardship responsibilities. It was done (paraphrasing Paul) for the perfecting of the Saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we ALL come in the UNITY of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God; so that we be no more tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men and their cunning craftiness, who wait to deceive. Paul outlines it all in Ephesians. Many of the people back then did not listen and the Church fractured and fell into apostasy. It applies just as much today.

The Lord has set up a well defined system of Priesthood Govt. to protect the Saints from deception and apostasy. He calls thru that Priesthood Govt. men and women to administer and minister so that we can become a UNIFIED body of Christ.

The Prophet holds all the Priesthood keys necessary to administer the saving ordinances of the gospel to all of Gods children. Those keys are vital and critical. The missionary and temple work depend on those keys being righteously administered.

Christ asks all his Saints to listen to and give heed to the words of His servants whom He has called and given these keys or we will be cut off from His body. These Prophets are an essential part of His Priesthood Govt system. They keep the system running smoothly and without corruption. No man has the right to become a law unto themselves. Otherwise it becomes total chaos and fracturing will inevitably occur.
Do you now understand the importance of these servants in Christs Priesthood system? They are commissioned among others things to protect the Saints from deceivers who determine to fracture the church. Zion is a UNIFIED body of Saints.

I understand the purpose of the Church and the organization of the Church. The Church exist to help facilitate a person's conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is there to help bring people to Jesus Christ. Zion are the pure in heart. They will be one, when they all possess the same Mind, or Spirit, which is the Spirit of Christ. In order for us to receive that Spirit and become a Zion people, we must have a broken heart and a contrite spirit and become as a little child, humble, meek, submissive, so that the Spirit can change us from a carnal state to a state of Holiness, which is what makes us Saints indeed instead of just in word.

-Finrock

[braingrunt]

I would just say, you are extrapolating beyond the plain meaning when you assert you can have an angel perform your baptism. Jesus didn't talk about that. On the contrary he explained baptism as an action of "these guys over here".
Jesus wasn't baptized by an angel either.
And when Joseph Smith asked about baptism, he was not told, "hey, we'll baptize you" but was rather told: "It's imperative that you get the authority to do this."

[AI2.0]

t was asserted by eddie that "Whenever we choose to come unto Christ, AND follow His servants, we have used our agency wisely" (emphasis mine).

The provision, "follow His servants", is a falsehood perpetuated by tradition and a misunderstanding of the doctrine of Christ, and it comes of evil. This statement implies that one cannot come unto Christ without following His servants. At its most fundamental level, it makes coming unto Christ, contingent upon following the arm of flesh. It puts an intermediary between Christ and man. This contingency and this intermediary is false. I assert, and I have demonstrated it is supported by scripture, that Christ can be approached and we can come unto Christ without the need to follow any mortal. In a nutshell, or the point that I am speaking out against, is the idea that a mortal stands between another mortal and Christ. The statement, "follow His servants" places a mortal man as the gatekeeper to Christ. I denounce this false and damnable doctrine. It is an addition to the doctrine of Christ as taught by Jesus Christ.

We don't need to follow the servants of Jesus Christ in order to come unto Christ. I demonstrated how the doctrine of Christ as taught in the scriptures does not contain that thought but instead it clearly tells us to follow Jesus Christ. At no point did Jesus Christ follow the prophets. If he is our exemplar and He showed us the way, and following a prophet was necessary, then Christ would have left a record and had an example where He followed the prophet. But, this doesn't exist and it didn't happen. The person who lived perfectly and showed us perfectly what we should do, never followed a prophet and never commanded us to do so.

I'm going to guess you don't read the scriptures much. Jesus DID follow the prophets and he did command us to. This belief in following prophets wasn't pulled out of a hat by LDS. And, you've completely distorted the whole 'arm of flesh' admonishment.

I will attempt to give you some scriptures which reiterate the need to follow the Lord's servants. And indeed, why would he bother sending prophets and setting up a church with apostles, prophets, teachers etc. if he didn't mean for us to follow them.


D&C 1:6 "6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth."

1:38 "What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same."

84:36 "34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.
35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;
37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;
38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him."

There are many other examples in the scriptures which make it clear that the Lord meant for us to follow his earthly servants. This is obvious to all if read without an agenda. However, if you are a follower of Denver Snuffer, you may ignore these writings or misinterpret them. I don't know if that's the situation with you, but I've seen it with Snuffer people who now reject Apostles and their church leaders.

[Mark]

"The provision, "follow His servants", is a falsehood perpetuated by tradition and a misunderstanding of the doctrine of Christ, and it comes of evil. This statement implies that one cannot come unto Christ without following His servants. At its most fundamental level, it makes coming unto Christ, contingent upon following the arm of flesh. It puts an intermediary between Christ and man. This contingency and this intermediary is false. I assert, and I have demonstrated it is supported by scripture, that Christ can be approached and we can come unto Christ without the need to follow any mortal. In a nutshell, or the point that I am speaking out against, is the idea that a mortal stands between another mortal and Christ. The statement, "follow His servants" places a mortal man as the gatekeeper to Christ. I denounce this false and damnable doctrine. It is an addition to the doctrine of Christ as taught by Jesus Christ."

So Finrock let's try to reason this out. Should Eddie have said "Whenever we come unto Christ AND reject his servants we have used our agency wisely? You have already stated that the wicked in past generations rejected the Lord servants who were called as prophets to declare the word of the Lord and paid a dear price for doing so. The Prophets told them to repent of their transgressions and come unto Christ with full purpose of heart. You are not thinking this through and are being blinded by your stubbornness.

What if the Israelites had followed Moses and his example so they could sanctify themselves and be worthy to come into the presence of the Lord? Was it better for them to reject Moses admonition and directive to follow him into the Lords presence? God calls his servants the Prophets to cry repentance unto their particular generation and He tells them through His Prophet servants to sanctify themselves so that they can be worthy to behold his face. You talk like following these Prophets in their righteous counsels and directives is evil and sinful. If you can't see the absurdity in this line of thinking frankly I give up.

[Amonhi]

It is clear that the discussion between both sides of this coin has a point to make, a truth they have learned and hold to.

I know both sides of this coin.

Prophets are call by God to declare His word to the people. To reject the prophets is to reject the word of God and the God that sent it. They are God's messengers to the people particularly when the people can't or won't commune with God for themselves.

If God could just speak with the people directly, He would. But when they are wicked or faithless, He can't. So, what does He do? He talks to those who ARE willing and able to talk with Him and He tells them what to tell everyone else who He can't speak to directly. These people that speak to God are called prophets.

They are important because without them, the wicked people who can't or won't speak with God for themselves wouldn't know what God wanted them to do.


For example, The children of Israel refused to enter into God's presence.

18 ¶And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.

19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. - Exodus 20

15 ¶The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. - Deut. 18

So, God needs and uses Prophets so that He can speak through the prophets to his wicked children who are unable to or refuse to speak to God for themselves.

Of course, God is angry when people are wicked and can't or refused to enter into HIs presence and thereby return to the garden like state prior to the fall when man was in God's presence. So God became upset with them and gave them the preparatory Gospel which we call the Law of Moses. It included laws of Carnal commandments, if you broke the laws, you sinned and needed to either be punished or repent. If you repented, you could receive a remission of your sins by baptism.

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb. - D&C 84

What would have happened if the people had entered into God's presence?

So, do we need prophets? Yes, we do. Why? Because we can't or won't talk to God for ourselves.

What is everyone was a prophet and could speak to God for themselves? Would we need to rely on Prophets to get to God? No, we would already be to God for ourselves. In Doctrine and Covenants section 1, the lord tells us that it is the goal of the book to bring about the prophecy that everyone will speak in the name of the Lord.

18 ...and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—
...
20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;

But if everyone were a prophet, and could speak for the Lord, would we still need a president of the Church? Yes, of course we would, just as we need Bishops, and Elder's quorum presidents and other offices to be filled for the organization and function of the church.

Should you obey the prophets? Only when they are speaking for God. If they are not Speaking for God, then you are not obligated to obey them because they are speaking as a man and are subject to the flaws of men.

How do you know if they are speaking for God or not?

You know because if they are speaking by the spirit, then they are speaking of God and for God. If they are not speaking by the spirit, then they are not of God.

17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God. - D&C 50

If they are speaking as moved on by the spirit, then it is the word of the lord, the mind of the Lord, the voice of the Lord and the will of the Lord. To reject their message is to reject God.

4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. - D&C 86

How do we know when they are speaking by the Power of the Holy Ghost? When someone speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost carries the message into the heart of those that hear and they feel the power of the message and gain a testimony of it as it is spoken.

2 Nephi 33:1
1 And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.

If we receive the truths that are witnessed by the power of the Holy Ghost as the prophets speak the words of God to us, then we receive the words of God through the prophets or messengers of God. If we reject the words, then we have rejected God because the message was delivered in Go'd own voice which is the voice of the spirit.

Doctrine and Covenants 18:35
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, and by my power you can read them one to another; and save it were by my power you could not have them;

Doctrine and Covenants 75:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I who speak even by the voice of my Spirit, even Alpha and Omega, your Lord and your God—

Doctrine and Covenants 88:66
...my voice, because my voice is Spirit...

Doctrine and Covenants 97:1
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, ...

If we receive anything and accept it as God's word when it didn't come from His own voice, through His servants the Prophets, then we have received, but not of God.

19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God. - D&C 50

Other ways of receiving or accepting what is taught as if it came from God might include:

• Accepting something written by fairmormon.org which claims to be the doctrine of the church but isn't. - Receiving by virtue of study and knowledge
• Accepting something as truth because it was spoken in General Conference over the pulpit - Receiving by virtue of place or event
• Accepting something as the word of the Lord because it was spoken by a person in a position of High rank or priesthood - Receiving by virtue of the priesthood
• Accepting something as truth because someone did a miracle - Receiving by virtue of signs and wonders
• Receiving something as truth because it was printed in a church approved manual, article or magazine - Receiving by virtue of church endorsement

From any and all of these sources, we receive a great deal of truth and valuable information. Only an uninspired fool would deny the truths that are taught from these sources. But only a fool would assume that these sources are infallible to the point that they do not also teach the philosophies of men. If we are truly receiving from God, then we are always looking for those truths that come to us by the power of the Holy Ghost. When God speaks to us by His voice, we know it comes from God.

When it comes from God, we obey because God has spoken through His servants.

We all accept that the prophets are only prophets when acting as prophets by speaking with the voice of the Lord, through the power of the spirit. We all know that at times they do not. When they are not speaking for the Lord, then we are not obligated to accept or obey. Our salvation is not dependant upon our obedience to them as men speaking for themselves. We are not obligated to accept what they teach by virtue of their priesthood or position in the church.

It is therefore easy to see that when they are speaking and acting by the power of the Holy Ghost, they are speaking and acting for God as His servants. When they are not, they are not speaking or acting for God.

So, in this way, both sides of the coin are correct depending on whether or not they are speaking and acting for God.

It is imperative that we obey the prophets when they are speaking for God just as we would obey God. But it is not required to obey them when they are not.

It is therefore more important to listen to and follow the spirit than to listen to and follow the position or priesthood because the position or priesthood does not always speak for God, but the spirit ALWAYS speaks for God.

Follow the spirit and it will bring you to God.

Doctrine and Covenants 84:47
47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Joel]

[Joel]