Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk

[deep water]

I agree with brother rwcox.
The most important thing is to follow the current church leaders. Don't worry about the other things.

you do realize that he is calling his fellow saint "sick", "spiritually sick", deceived by a false Spirit apostates?
You do realize that he is telling others that they have not been born of God because they don't agree with his narrow point of view?

If I were you, I'd be careful about sustaining such words. Proceed with caution. If you support someone who is not loving their neighbor, you are guilty of the same.

Well I don't know about all that...guilty of someone else's sins? How can we truly know if people love their neighbor or not?
The logic is just stay with the church and its leaders no matter what. If you are tempted to fight against the church you are being deceived.

When you have the temple recommend interview, they ask if you support any individual or group that opposes any church doctrine.
If you do support them, then you cannot have your recommend. It's the same principle.

Yes Rewcox is right when he says we need to follow our leaders when they are inspired by the Holy Ghost.

But You said you support him. IIm just letting you know the other things he has said on this very thread., you are supporting him when he calls his fellow saint "apostates" and tells them they are sick and can't have been born again because they disagree with his opinion.

If that's the fruit of a true Saint, I want nothing to do with it. If That's how perfect Mormons are supposed to treat their neighbor, I want nothing of that.

That's why I say, be careful what you support. Rewcox may have many good things to say , but he has been very rude to his fellow saint, and you are publicly endorsing him and his words.

So by holding the leaders to the same "they ask if you support any individual or group that opposes any church doctrine." Pres. Hinkly would have not been worthy of an temple recommend, for he said that we do not live or believe in the doctrine of polygamy, in as interview he gave to Larry King
"I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal. It is not legal. And this church takes the position that we will abide by the law. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates in honoring, obeying and sustaining the law."
We do infact still practice it as a doctrine, If my sealed wife dies, I can be sealed to another wife, for time and all eternity, and again. Though by earthy standards it is not practiced, it truly is a practiced doctrine.

[gfnelson]

That is just trivia.

It is like a legal argument. No need for that.

Our church teaches that following the brethren's counsel is the simplest and safest way.

[rewcox]

I understand TBM but what is MM?

Mainstream Mormon.

[deep water]

That is just trivia.

It is like a legal argument. No need for that.

Our church teaches that following the brethren's counsel is the simplest and safest way.

Yes, we can ignore or dismiss it as just another mystery not to be pursued, or we can search out the truthfulness and falseness of everything that will determine our destination..

[Obrien]

I listened on youtube to the talk.

I am trying to say that I agree with rewcox that we need to follow the brethren of the church.
Rewcox says that salvation comes through following them. They say themselves that if we follow them we will be blessed. As members, that is what we do.

"Come follow ME, the SAVIOUR said", not "Follow the prophet". Truth so simple a primary child could understand.

[bornfree]

I listened on youtube to the talk.

I am trying to say that I agree with rewcox that we need to follow the brethren of the church.
Rewcox says that salvation comes through following them. They say themselves that if we follow them we will be blessed. As members, that is what we do.

"Come follow ME, the SAVIOUR said", not "Follow the prophet". Truth so simple a primary child could understand.

So simple a caveman could understand it?

D&C 4:14

1 Behold, there shall be a record kept among you; and in it thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of your Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Being inspired of the Holy Ghost to lay the foundation thereof, and to build it up unto the most holy faith.

3 Which church was organized and established in the year of your Lord eighteen hundred and thirty, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.

4 Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

[deep water]

There again; D&C 4 revelation given before the church came under condemnation. Feb. 1829

[Lizzy60]

D&C 4:1-4 is speaking specifically about Joseph Smith.
Also, notice that in verse 4, "church" refers to the members.

[Obrien]

I listened on youtube to the talk.

I am trying to say that I agree with rewcox that we need to follow the brethren of the church.
Rewcox says that salvation comes through following them. They say themselves that if we follow them we will be blessed. As members, that is what we do.

"Come follow ME, the SAVIOUR said", not "Follow the prophet". Truth so simple a primary child could understand.

So simple a caveman could understand it?

D&C 4:14

1 Behold, there shall be a record kept among you; and in it thou shalt be called a seer, a translator, a prophet, an apostle of Jesus Christ, an elder of the church through the will of God the Father, and the grace of your Lord Jesus Christ,

2 Being inspired of the Holy Ghost to lay the foundation thereof, and to build it up unto the most holy faith.

3 Which church was organized and established in the year of your Lord eighteen hundred and thirty, in the fourth month, and on the sixth day of the month which is called April.

4 Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

I don't believe this scripture logically means that all Joseph's successors would have the same prophetic mantel and gifts as are attributed to Joseph in verse 1.

[Thinker]

The most essential commandment is to prioritize God/love above all - even a church.
Moses received that instruction - "thou shalt not have any other gods before me."

Jesus also said that above all the prophets and laws, we are commanded to love God, and as we love others as ourselves, we love God... "on these 2 commandments hang all of the law and the prophets."
"God is love" and pure love (charity) never fails, but whether they be churches or prophets, etc, they WILL FAIL.
So, trust only in God and don't trust in the arm of flesh.

That's not to say we must reinvent the wheel.
We ought to learn from others, but don't ever place what someone says - even a prophet - above what is of God.

[Lizzy60]

Brigham Young stated many times that he was not a prophet. He said he did not have the gifts Joseph had. Other Presidents of the Church have stated that they have not seen Christ, nor had visions.

Our FPres and Q12 have told us more than once, that when they reach agreement on a matter, then they have found the will of the Lord for our day. This is a different process and experience than what Joseph was given and showed multiple times.

[deep water]

D&C 4:1-4 is speaking specifically about Joseph Smith.
Also, notice that in verse 4, "church" refers to the members.

Church= a congregation of believers or Saints.

[Zathura]

Brigham Young stated many times that he was not a prophet. He said he did not have the gifts Joseph had. Other Presidents of the Church have stated that they have not seen Christ, nor had visions.

Our FPres and Q12 have told us more than once, that when they reach agreement on a matter, then they have found the will of the Lord for our day. This is a different process and experience than what Joseph was given and showed multiple times.

Why do Mormons ignore Brighams quotes when he says he wasn't a prophet like Joseph? Why pick and choose which quotes you want to believe?
Brigham called himself a Yankee guesser.

[rewcox]

I belong to a great church. Just like when Christ organized His church after He was resurrected. My church also has apostles and prophets.

My church has some additional scriptures, including a special gift in the Book of Mormon. Revelations from our first prophet, Joseph Smith.

Members in my church have the opportunity to serve, learn and grow. As they do so, they see how to make the gospel real in their lives.

Some members don't like my church or leaders. That is unfortunate. It is a great church and I am humbled to be a member.

[Zathura]

I belong to Christ.
I'm humbled to have been able to take upon me the name of Christ.
I'm grateful that he forgives me each time I make a mistake, and that his grace is sufficient.
I'm grateful that no matter how prideful I am, he reminds me of it and humbles me that I may see my weaknesses, that my weaknesses may become strengths.
I'm grateful for the opportunity to share his Gospel and his Atonement and help others be born of God that they may receive the Holy Ghost and receive power to become his sons and daughters.

[rewcox]

A current apostle said this

I am a witness of the Resurrection of the Lord as surely as if I had been there in the evening with the two disciples in the house on Emmaus road. I know that He lives as surely as did Joseph Smith when he saw the Father and the Son in the light of a brilliant morning in a grove of trees in Palmyra.

This is the true Church of Jesus Christ. Only in the priesthood keys held by President Thomas S. Monson is the power for us to be sealed in families to live forever with our Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We will on the Day of Judgment stand before the Savior, face to face. It will be a time of joy for those who have drawn close to Him in His service in this life. It will be a joy to hear the words: “Well done, thou good and faithful servant.”19 I so testify as a witness of the risen Savior and our Redeemer in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

I'm glad to have living apostles and prophets, and the true church of Jesus Christ.

[Kitkat]

A current apostle said this

I am a witness of the Resurrection of the Lord as surely as if I had been there in the evening with the two disciples in the house on Emmaus road. I know that He lives as surely as did Joseph Smith when he saw the Father and the Son in the light of a brilliant morning in a grove of trees in Palmyra.

This is the true Church of Jesus Christ. Only in the priesthood keys held by President Thomas S. Monson is the power for us to be sealed in families to live forever with our Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We will on the Day of Judgment stand before the Savior, face to face. It will be a time of joy for those who have drawn close to Him in His service in this life. It will be a joy to hear the words: “Well done, thou good and faithful servant.”19 I so testify as a witness of the risen Savior and our Redeemer in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

I'm glad to have living apostles and prophets, and the true church of Jesus Christ.

Are you seeking this for yourself or is this for them only?

[Jeremy]

A current president said this

One, two, three—let’s go shopping!

I'm glad for black friday.
:ymparty:

Someone should start a thanksgiving thread or a "I'm glad for" thread.

[rewcox]

A current apostle said this

I am a witness of the Resurrection of the Lord as surely as if I had been there in the evening with the two disciples in the house on Emmaus road. I know that He lives as surely as did Joseph Smith when he saw the Father and the Son in the light of a brilliant morning in a grove of trees in Palmyra.

This is the true Church of Jesus Christ. Only in the priesthood keys held by President Thomas S. Monson is the power for us to be sealed in families to live forever with our Heavenly Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. We will on the Day of Judgment stand before the Savior, face to face. It will be a time of joy for those who have drawn close to Him in His service in this life. It will be a joy to hear the words: “Well done, thou good and faithful servant.”19 I so testify as a witness of the risen Savior and our Redeemer in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

I'm glad to have living apostles and prophets, and the true church of Jesus Christ.

Are you seeking this for yourself or is this for them only?

It is very clear in the Book of Mormon. Moroni said to come unto Christ and be perfected in Him.

[Obrien]

Brigham Young stated many times that he was not a prophet. He said he did not have the gifts Joseph had. Other Presidents of the Church have stated that they have not seen Christ, nor had visions.

Our FPres and Q12 have told us more than once, that when they reach agreement on a matter, then they have found the will of the Lord for our day. This is a different process and experience than what Joseph was given and showed multiple times.

Yeah, it's a pretty gutsy move to declare you know the will of God for the world. You've got to be the real McCoy, delusional, reprobate or exceedingly hopeful to offer such.

[rewcox]

We read in Proverbs the admonition, “Ponder the path of thy feet.”19 As we do, we will have the faith, even the desire, to walk the path which Jesus walked. We will have no doubt that we are on a path which our Father would have us follow. The Savior’s example provides a framework for everything that we do, and His words provide an unfailing guide. His path will take us safely home. May this be our blessing, I pray in the name of Jesus Christ, whom I love, whom I serve, and of whom I testify, amen.

President Monson, whom I testify is God's prophet today.

[Obrien]

I can make the same claims, and truthfully so.

[isaacs2066]

I agree with brother rwcox.
The most important thing is to follow the current church leaders. Don't worry about the other things.

Dude, that is literally what the people in jerusalem said to Lehi before they tried to stone him to death...they had the temple, the priests, they had the true religion. They also had prophets. It turns out though that they were still wicked.

The Lord explicitly said not to obey prophets or anyone else for that matter who teaches or preaches or leads contrary to the scriptural canon that in every age was always accepted, and expanded by some form of common consent.

This in many instances is exactly what our church leaders do.

Why should I believe our president is american when he has refused to show us a birth certificate, and when he did it was proved to be a fraud by experts who were trying to prove it was real?

Different question same principle, why should I hold someone up as a prophet seer and revelator when they do exactly none of those things...?

Why should I believe the church is run according to the Lords will when it is run differently than the way he himself stated that it is to be done?

Why should I believe the laws congress passes are constitutional when they make laws covering subjects that the constitution explicitly reserves to the states or to the people?

If you cannot give me straight logical answers proving your position that are backed up by the scriptures then stop talking.

Put up or shut up brah...

[gfnelson]

Actually no one ever "literally" said that to Lehi.

Where would you even get that idea?

You yourself- try and prove by the scriptures that people literally said what I wrote to Lehi, before trying to stone him.

You "literally" just made that up.

Right?

[gfnelson]

I listened on youtube to the talk.

I am trying to say that I agree with rewcox that we need to follow the brethren of the church.
Rewcox says that salvation comes through following them. They say themselves that if we follow them we will be blessed. As members, that is what we do.

"Come follow ME, the SAVIOUR said", not "Follow the prophet". Truth so simple a primary child could understand.

Simple indeed

Go ahead and follow Him, if you can see Him. Until then, follow the brethren who will point you to Him.