Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
How much time do General Authorities spend preparing for their talk? 2 months? More?
Obviously you believe that they are inspired by the Holy Ghost.
So, Aftet all that preparation, Elder Poelman gives his talk and immediately after regrets it and requests to revise it and publish a recording different from the one given live? Which was inspired of the Holy Ghost?
There are people who know that family personally. They are privileged to more info than some journalist.
Obviously you believe that they are inspired by the Holy Ghost.
So, Aftet all that preparation, Elder Poelman gives his talk and immediately after regrets it and requests to revise it and publish a recording different from the one given live? Which was inspired of the Holy Ghost?
There are people who know that family personally. They are privileged to more info than some journalist.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
My guess is he was inspired by the spirit with the first one, and inspired by threats by people with the 2nd.Stahura wrote:How much time do General Authorities spend preparing for their talk? 2 months? More?
Obviously you believe that they are inspired by the Holy Ghost.
So, Aftet all that preparation, Elder Poelman gives his talk and immediately after regrets it and requests to revise it and publish a recording different from the one given live? Which was inspired of the Holy Ghost?
There are people who know that family personally. They are privileged to more info than some journalist.
How many others are so influenced - when we get the final message?
In the beginning, the Mormon way was to stand for truth, no matter what the crowd said.
Gradually, the church became "Hell's assisted living" - avoiding inconvenient truths, stuffing them down somewhere, so they fester and turn into bigger and bigger problems.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Some GAs work on their talks up to 6 months in advance. Others take a few days. Others still work on a talk only to feel like they have to say something elseStahura wrote:How much time do General Authorities spend preparing for their talk? 2 months? More?
Obviously you believe that they are inspired by the Holy Ghost.
So, Aftet all that preparation, Elder Poelman gives his talk and immediately after regrets it and requests to revise it and publish a recording different from the one given live? Which was inspired of the Holy Ghost?
There are people who know that family personally. They are privileged to more info than some journalist.
Think Elder Holland's MTC address some time ago
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Elder Poelman was not in any way forced to make changes to his talk. In fact, the substance of what he said in 1984 is extremely similar to the things that Elder Uchtdorf said in one of his recent conferences addresses. However, after the conference, members and leaders raised issues about how his talk might be received and used by some who sought reasons to discount the counsel of leaders to justify practices such as polygamy. Because of the questions raised, Elder Poelman was desirous to clarify his remarks so that it could not be used as a license by others to disregard modern revelation or counsel.
Because it is common practice for talks to be edited for publication, it was thought that the "official" record should reflect the clarified intent of the talk. As such, Elder Poelman himself made modifications to his own remarks for the official record that would be published in the Ensign.
In 1984, producing video records of the conference for home use was relatively new. Clearly, producing an "updated" version of a talk that had already been recorded posed some problems. For one, a recording with no background noise would stand out in contrast to all the other talks with no modifications. In addition, there was likely a desire not to deceive but to give authenticity to the presentation so as to not distract from its actual message.
While perhaps a unwise decision in hindsight, the intent was simply to let the core of the message be the focus, not the distractions of the delivery because of the changes. For these reasons, background noises were allowed to be introduced or were intentionally added. (It is not clear whether the background noise--sometimes termed a "cough track" was intentionally added, or whether those in the tabernacle during the retaping were simply were allowed to behave as they would have during the original presentation, resulting in a low level of ambient noise similar to other talks.)
In the end, the intent and purpose was to make the excellent remarks of Elder Poelman the focus of the video, and to allow him to make changes he himself desired to have made, which were made without any compulsion whatsoever from any other church leader.
Unfortunately, critics have shifted the focus from his beautiful message to a misleading discussion of a "cover up," and attempted even in retrospect to impute meaning to his original talk that he did not intend. If anything, this demonstrates the wisdom of making the clarifications he did, if not the technical means used to circulate the changes.
The most telling comment made by the sources available to FairMormon volunteers was that the late Elder Poelman would be horrified to know people today were using his talk to attack the Church. The intent of his talk, including the changes, were intended to foster faith, not doubt in the Church.
In retrospect, this talk was a beautiful one in its original form, and had it been left as it was originally delivered it would have have never become the focus of criticism for secular and "intellectual" critics, though some "fundamentalist" groups might have embraced and misused its ideas.
Ironically, the changes Elder Poelman introduced promoted the very criticism and fault-finding with the Church that he had hoped to forestall, but one cannot fault a faithful servant for trying to make his offering more effective, or fault those who sought to make the new technological distribution of his talk as congruent with the rest of conference as possible as they prepared the official record for dissemination.
I personally do not consider his talk, the changes, or the potentially misguided efforts to make the video version authentic as anything deceitful. Given that all knew that the original recording existed, with press and others present for the original delivery, it defies reason that there was an attempt at a cover up or deceive. Rather, there was an effort only to allow him to amend his official remarks in both the written and video record, and allow it to be as authentic as all the other recorded talks.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Let's play a mind experiment, that obviously cannot be confirmed, but is nonetheless interesting.
Let's pretend brother Poelman gave the second talk live in general conference, and upon reflection, decided the talk as given didn't convey his intended message. Would he have had the ability to go to the leadership, express his concerns and get a redo to read the other talk in the tabernacle, then have it substituted into the official record as the "real" talk? Occam's razor tells me "probably not".
Let's pretend brother Poelman gave the second talk live in general conference, and upon reflection, decided the talk as given didn't convey his intended message. Would he have had the ability to go to the leadership, express his concerns and get a redo to read the other talk in the tabernacle, then have it substituted into the official record as the "real" talk? Occam's razor tells me "probably not".
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Enjoy the first talk, take a tums for the second.Obrien wrote:Let's play a mind experiment, that obviously cannot be confirmed, but is nonetheless interesting.
Let's pretend brother Poelman gave the second talk live in general conference, and upon reflection, decided the talk as given didn't convey his intended message. Would he have had the ability to go to the leadership, express his concerns and get a redo to read the other talk in the tabernacle, then have it substituted into the official record as the "real" talk? Occam's razor tells me "probably not".
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Obrien wrote:Let's play a mind experiment, that obviously cannot be confirmed, but is nonetheless interesting.
Let's pretend brother Poelman gave the second talk live in general conference, and upon reflection, decided the talk as given didn't convey his intended message. Would he have had the ability to go to the leadership, express his concerns and get a redo to read the other talk in the tabernacle, then have it substituted into the official record as the "real" talk? Occam's razor tells me "probably not".
Amen
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
I don't need a Tums for either talk - they are both applicable at different stages of life.rewcox wrote:Enjoy the first talk, take a tums for the second.Obrien wrote:Let's play a mind experiment, that obviously cannot be confirmed, but is nonetheless interesting.
Let's pretend brother Poelman gave the second talk live in general conference, and upon reflection, decided the talk as given didn't convey his intended message. Would he have had the ability to go to the leadership, express his concerns and get a redo to read the other talk in the tabernacle, then have it substituted into the official record as the "real" talk? Occam's razor tells me "probably not".
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Amen!gkearney wrote:This goes to prove the truth of the Streisand Effect. Had everyone left the original talk just as it was it would have been long forgotten and we would not be having this discussion. However once it was attempted to hide the original the matter took on a life all its own and the original now lives on longer than it ever would of.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Obrien wrote:I can make the same claims, and truthfully so.
I just can't understand why some people think it is heresy to ask for proof of claims like this, I mean Jesus proved he had power because he did miracles in public, so did Joseph.
Whether or not the power was from god or the devil they had it none the less.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
One of the few purposes of such miracles is to prove that the man performing the miracle truly had the power of God.isaacs2066 wrote:Obrien wrote:I can make the same claims, and truthfully so.
I just can't understand why some people think it is heresy to ask for proof of claims like this, I mean Jesus proved he had power because he did miracles in public, so did Joseph.
Whether or not the power was from god or the devil they had it none the less.
There is a rather sad belief that such miracles have been replaced by modern technology, or that such miracles are rare and occur in special circumstances.
Knowing that we would trouble ourselves over this matter, Moroni cleared this up pretty well. He said that if these things cease, it's because faith has ceased. Period.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
I haven't heard the born agains talk about their miracles.
I just heard about a missionary sister who was sick, had a priesthood blessing and is better.
I just heard about a missionary sister who was sick, had a priesthood blessing and is better.
Stahura wrote:One of the few purposes of such miracles is to prove that the man performing the miracle truly had the power of God.isaacs2066 wrote:I just can't understand why some people think it is heresy to ask for proof of claims like this, I mean Jesus proved he had power because he did miracles in public, so did Joseph.Obrien wrote:I can make the same claims, and truthfully so.
Whether or not the power was from god or the devil they had it none the less.
There is a rather sad belief that such miracles have been replaced by modern technology, or that such miracles are rare and occur in special circumstances.
Knowing that we would trouble ourselves over this matter, Moroni cleared this up pretty well. He said that if these things cease, it's because faith has ceased. Period.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Let's not.Obrien wrote:Let's play a mind experiment, that obviously cannot be confirmed, but is nonetheless interesting.
Let's pretend brother Poelman gave the second talk live in general conference, and upon reflection, decided the talk as given didn't convey his intended message.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
rewcox - I was born again. I'm pretty sure you have been too at one time or another. Maybe it happened yesterday for you, I don't know. I think it happens over and over and over as you commit your life to Christ. Anyway, I thought it was interesting how you brought up miracles and being born again, so here goes.... you might like this one.
It was at a time of a very spiritual high, I felt close to the Savior and worthy to ask things of Him. My 80ish neighbor lady that I visited had a open bleeding wound on her knee from a surgery. Eight years earlier she had fallen and shattered her knee cap into 19 pieces. It just hadn't stopped bleeding all that time and the doctors could do nothing about it. I prayed and prayed and prayed for her with incredible faith. Then one morning as she was on her jazzy scooter, she bent down to scoop her dog's droppings and accidentally pushed the joystick forward. She broke both of her ankles and her hip and she now cannot walk but...... her knee is no longer bleeding!
Lessons learned: Sometimes the Lord knows better. I have no clue what I am doing. Be careful what you ask for!!!
It was at a time of a very spiritual high, I felt close to the Savior and worthy to ask things of Him. My 80ish neighbor lady that I visited had a open bleeding wound on her knee from a surgery. Eight years earlier she had fallen and shattered her knee cap into 19 pieces. It just hadn't stopped bleeding all that time and the doctors could do nothing about it. I prayed and prayed and prayed for her with incredible faith. Then one morning as she was on her jazzy scooter, she bent down to scoop her dog's droppings and accidentally pushed the joystick forward. She broke both of her ankles and her hip and she now cannot walk but...... her knee is no longer bleeding!
Lessons learned: Sometimes the Lord knows better. I have no clue what I am doing. Be careful what you ask for!!!
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
This ^^^ is a case when not responding would have been the adult course of action. If you don't like a thread, move on, RH.Robin Hood wrote:Let's not.Obrien wrote:Let's play a mind experiment, that obviously cannot be confirmed, but is nonetheless interesting.
Let's pretend brother Poelman gave the second talk live in general conference, and upon reflection, decided the talk as given didn't convey his intended message.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Wonderful, I rejoice with that sisterrewcox wrote:I haven't heard the born agains talk about their miracles.
I just heard about a missionary sister who was sick, had a priesthood blessing and is better.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Good story.
Yes, don't have dogs or you have to clean up a bunch of pool! Lol.
Yes, don't have dogs or you have to clean up a bunch of pool! Lol.
True wrote:rewcox - I was born again. I'm pretty sure you have been too at one time or another. Maybe it happened yesterday for you, I don't know. I think it happens over and over and over as you commit your life to Christ. Anyway, I thought it was interesting how you brought up miracles and being born again, so here goes.... you might like this one.
It was at a time of a very spiritual high, I felt close to the Savior and worthy to ask things of Him. My 80ish neighbor lady that I visited had a open bleeding wound on her knee from a surgery. Eight years earlier she had fallen and shattered her knee cap into 19 pieces. It just hadn't stopped bleeding all that time and the doctors could do nothing about it. I prayed and prayed and prayed for her with incredible faith. Then one morning as she was on her jazzy scooter, she bent down to scoop her dog's droppings and accidentally pushed the joystick forward. She broke both of her ankles and her hip and she now cannot walk but...... her knee is no longer bleeding!
Lessons learned: Sometimes the Lord knows better. I have no clue what I am doing. Be careful what you ask for!!!
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
I've posted about it before, but I have to agree with you on this last thought, stahura. I was pretty firmly anchored in my last ward / stake. I asked both my bishop and stake president if they knew someone in the area with the gift of healing. I believe that specific gift exists, and I'm in need of a specific healing blessing. Neither man (both "good" church leaders) knew of anyone in our stake with that gift. Rewcox, if you have it, I'll drive to your place for a blessing under your hand.Stahura wrote:One of the few purposes of such miracles is to prove that the man performing the miracle truly had the power of God.isaacs2066 wrote:Obrien wrote:I can make the same claims, and truthfully so.
I just can't understand why some people think it is heresy to ask for proof of claims like this, I mean Jesus proved he had power because he did miracles in public, so did Joseph.
Whether or not the power was from god or the devil they had it none the less.
There is a rather sad belief that such miracles have been replaced by modern technology, or that such miracles are rare and occur in special circumstances.
Knowing that we would trouble ourselves over this matter, Moroni cleared this up pretty well. He said that if these things cease, it's because faith has ceased. Period.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
I usually go family, then home teachers. You have a background to have faith, just takes a little with the person doing the blessing.Obrien wrote:I've posted about it before, but I have to agree with you on this last thought, stahura. I was pretty firmly anchored in my last ward / stake. I asked both my bishop and stake president if they knew someone in the area with the gift of healing. I believe that specific gift exists, and I'm in need of a specific healing blessing. Neither man (both "good" church leaders) knew of anyone in our stake with that gift. Rewcox, if you have it, I'll drive to your place for a blessing under your hand.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
I have no family here, and no ht either. We know each other reasonably well...date?rewcox wrote:I usually go family, then home teachers. You have a background to have faith, just takes a little with the person doing the blessing.Obrien wrote:I've posted about it before, but I have to agree with you on this last thought, stahura. I was pretty firmly anchored in my last ward / stake. I asked both my bishop and stake president if they knew someone in the area with the gift of healing. I believe that specific gift exists, and I'm in need of a specific healing blessing. Neither man (both "good" church leaders) knew of anyone in our stake with that gift. Rewcox, if you have it, I'll drive to your place for a blessing under your hand.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
I had a mission companion who's patriarchal blessing says he had the gift to heal himself... AlmostObrien wrote:I have no family here, and no ht either. We know each other reasonably well...date?rewcox wrote:I usually go family, then home teachers. You have a background to have faith, just takes a little with the person doing the blessing.Obrien wrote:I've posted about it before, but I have to agree with you on this last thought, stahura. I was pretty firmly anchored in my last ward / stake. I asked both my bishop and stake president if they knew someone in the area with the gift of healing. I believe that specific gift exists, and I'm in need of a specific healing blessing. Neither man (both "good" church leaders) knew of anyone in our stake with that gift. Rewcox, if you have it, I'll drive to your place for a blessing under your hand.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Perhaps.Obrien wrote:This ^^^ is a case when not responding would have been the adult course of action. If you don't like a thread, move on, RH.Robin Hood wrote:Let's not.Obrien wrote:Let's play a mind experiment, that obviously cannot be confirmed, but is nonetheless interesting.
Let's pretend brother Poelman gave the second talk live in general conference, and upon reflection, decided the talk as given didn't convey his intended message.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Undoubtedly.Robin Hood wrote:Perhaps.Obrien wrote:This ^^^ is a case when not responding would have been the adult course of action. If you don't like a thread, move on, RH.Robin Hood wrote:Let's not.Obrien wrote:Let's play a mind experiment, that obviously cannot be confirmed, but is nonetheless interesting.
Let's pretend brother Poelman gave the second talk live in general conference, and upon reflection, decided the talk as given didn't convey his intended message.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
I think there are a lot of people in this world who are delusional, reprobate, or exceedingly hopeful . . .Obrien wrote:Yeah, it's a pretty gutsy move to declare you know the will of God for the world. You've got to be the real McCoy, delusional, reprobate or exceedingly hopeful to offer such.Lizzy60 wrote:Brigham Young stated many times that he was not a prophet. He said he did not have the gifts Joseph had. Other Presidents of the Church have stated that they have not seen Christ, nor had visions.
Our FPres and Q12 have told us more than once, that when they reach agreement on a matter, then they have found the will of the Lord for our day. This is a different process and experience than what Joseph was given and showed multiple times.
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Re: Elder Poelman - October 1984 Conference Talk
Where have you been?rewcox wrote:I haven't heard the born agains talk about their miracles.