Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

rewcox wrote:I sense anger...has someone created a place for you all to talk privately? Surely one of you has some technical know how.

I think you enjoyed having a private place where you could jump out and spread your version of stuff.

BofM can surely create a site for you.
Anger? No, an ever deepening great sadness. The point here Brother(?) is how derailed the Saints have been by the adversary. So few know the Gospel once delivered to the Saints, still fewer are willing to valiantly defend those truths, and almost none will stand and be counted to seek to live those laws. Whom is for the Lord and HIS righteousness and kingdom?

Why would the hand full of us need a special place, a private place, to ??? "jump out and spread your version of stuff" ???

First off is it not my version of anything! These principles were found in the scriptures and preached in the Grove in Nauvoo and later from the Tabernacle, long before my Grand Fathers was born.

Second, if you or others see the words Celestial Plural Marriage or Polygamy, and it makes one turn white and run or it makes you or them red in the face, then you or they can just pass all those post by.

Third, I am not here to try to talk anyone into believing the Doctrines of the Kingdom. I state them as a matter of fact as to what they are. I reject the excuses made by so many people as to why they think those doctrines have change, or why they no longer apply to them. If my sadness seems angry to you, then there are large portions of the BofM and the Bible that you might want to skip over too. They both talk pointedly about the wickedness of their day, as well as the prophesied apostasy of the end times, and about how you can tell true prophets from false prophets in our day.

And finally, I was answering the OP statement! "Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules" If people want a special place where they can express their opinions and hid behind the forum rules so they do not have to read discussions on doctrines that they are offended by, then YES... THEY need a special place like I suggested! That way they are spared any uncomfortableness, they can espouse the current Church positions without any options, and preach to the choir in perfect harmony.

Shalom

freedomforall
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by freedomforall »

Kingdom of ZION wrote: is how derailed the Saints have been by the adversary. So few know the Gospel once delivered to the Saints, still fewer are willing to valiantly defend those truths, and almost none will stand and be counted to seek to live those laws. Whom is for the Lord and HIS righteousness and kingdom?
So what is the intended extrapolation here? Are these pronouncements fact or conjecture? Please expound on points like "So few know the Gospel once delivered to the Saints" and "almost none will stand and be counted to seek to live those laws."
Please explain how we as humans can somehow judge others as to whether they fully believe a certain way or are not living specific laws. If I recall correctly, it is God that makes the decision as to whom comes into his kingdom. Why some people are bent on living in the past with notions of living some sort of doctrine that must have veered off leaving people stranded and going down the proverbial primrose path makes no sense. We are to feast upon the word, the iron rod, the official church doctrine, even the scriptures. In them is how we learn to come to know God and his Christ. We learn how to conduct ourselves in righteousness. We can't fault a person for doing what scriptures tell us in how to live the gospel today, and not worrying about every little discussion past church leaders may have had.

Here is a promise for those of today:

2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

A person cannot go the Father's kingdom having only done outward, saving ordinances. They also must come to know the Lord, his teachings, his character and his attributes and implement those things into our lives. This is how we come to see eye to eye with him. None of us can go to heaven on someone else's shirt tail and testimony. We must have our own.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

I know you (freedomforall) and I do not see eye to eye upon this topic. I see the clearly prophesied apostasy of the Gentiles in the latter days. Also, in the End Times, the giving of the Gospel back to the house of Yesrael. I know we also disagree upon the subject of who is the Gentiles Church as I know it to be the LDS Church. I declare that they broke of the New and Everlasting Covenant, back in 1890. You probably disagree. Finally I am certain you would not agree that there have been no revelations to the Church from the last one in 1889 to this very day.

With that said, that is how and why I feel the way I do, say the things I say based upon the things I see in the scriptures and from other uncanonized prophecies. Do I feel you have no right to believe the way you do? NO! Can I understand how you can believe what you do? NOT REALLY! You probably feel the same about what I believe. Does my opinions or your opinions make something true? NO! The real facts are what they are, our perceptions are either in harmony with the truth or not.

Time will tell, and by their fruits we shall know how to discern and know the truth of such things.

Shalom

freedomforall
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by freedomforall »

Kingdom of ZION wrote:I know you (freedomforall) and I do not see eye to eye upon this topic. I see the clearly prophesied apostasy of the Gentiles in the latter days. Also, in the End Times, the giving of the Gospel back to the house of Yesrael. I know we also disagree upon the subject of who is the Gentiles Church as I know it to be the LDS Church. I declare that they broke of the New and Everlasting Covenant, back in 1890. You probably disagree. Finally I am certain you would not agree that there have been no revelations to the Church from the last one in 1889 to this very day.

With that said, that is how and why I feel the way I do, say the things I say based upon the things I see in the scriptures and from other uncanonized prophecies. Do I feel you have no right to believe the way you do? NO! Can I understand how you can believe what you do? NOT REALLY! You probably feel the same about what I believe. Does my opinions or your opinions make something true? The difference is that my beliefs are not opinions, not made up and don't come to me via hearsay. They are taught me via canonized scripture and the Holy Ghost through prayer, based on a promise. NO! The real facts are what they are, our perceptions are either in harmony with the truth or not. Who's truth?

Time will tell, and by their fruits we shall know how to discern and know the truth of such things.

Shalom
You are very welcome to believe as you wish. I wouldn't want to stand in your way.
I do believe what I believe to be true. The reason behind this is personal, nevertheless, a gift from my Heavenly Father. So I am fully confident that that which I reveal is very much on track. Not perfect, but on track.
I am so confident that I can without any reservation go to Father in prayer, and do just what we are told in scripture to do. And that is to:

2 Nephi 32:9
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

I am also confident that there are some folks that would tremble in approaching God with false teachings and then trying to pass them on. I err on occasion but I truly want and desire to teach God's word as he would present himself. God knows my heart and that is my strength and this assists me with that goal. If I were to teach false doctrine on purpose, I would expect God to correct me.
So before you come here and claim there has been no revelations since 1889, or that the church somehow broke a covenant, I think you better ask God and do less picking and choosing as to what hearsay to pass on.
Can you truly approach God in full, unequivocal confidence of the things you say are facts that you know are true and should be passing them on?
I don't think so. These things you claim, I discern as your own opinion and not fact. Big difference.
Now the ball is in your court.

Stourme
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by Stourme »

Can I throw my 2cts in? :D

Polygamy is a celestial principle. And will be practiced again at least during the millennium.
Isaiah 4:
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
The reproach Isaiah mentions is that these women are not sealed.

Polygamy was part of the Mosaic law also.

However, it is only to be practiced when the Lord commands it. If the Lord says we do,...well then we do and then only to those He commands to do it.
Right now, the Lord says don't. ..... So ....we don't.

If you look at the eternal perspective, polygamy is a beautiful principle and a tender mercy given by God.

I had a bishop several years ago that was not sealed to his wife. He had fallen in love with a woman who was widowed at a young age. She was already sealed to her first husband. The bishop's children then belonged to the wife's first husband as well. Even though the bishop was their biological father, they were sealed to the mother's first husband.

The bishop has a problem, the only love in his life will return to her first husband on the morning of the first resurrection. He will have to rely on the mercy of the Lord to find someone at that time to be sealed to or he cannot receive exaltation.

If we were still living the law of Polygamy there would be no problem. The bishop could be sealed to a second wife in this life and at the same time providing for the widow. At the resurrection everything works out.

In the same ward a young couple was sealed. He was 21, just got back from his mission, and she was 18. About three months into their marriage it was announced to the ward that he was diagnosed with terminal cancer. Do you see where this is going?

She would have to find a priesthood holder willing to make the same sacrifice the bishop made in order to have the priesthood in her home, children, and companionship in this life. Polygamy is God's answer to these kinds of tragedies.

Passing laws against polygamy was the work of evil men inspired by Satan to stop the work. However, God's wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. Ending the practice of polygamy(the doctrine is still true) took away a stumbling block that many would have had in joining the Church. Therefore it worked out to Heavenly Father's advantage.

lgr3065
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by lgr3065 »

Stourme, I don't see how polygamy helped in your statement above.

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rewcox
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by rewcox »

lgr3065 wrote:Stourme, I don't see how polygamy helped in your statement above.
Another example. 1st wife is barren. Additional wives have children.

I was looking at some of my wife's history. I didn't know her great great grandfather had plural wives. 1st was barren, 2 and 3 had 18 kids among them.

In those days in vitro wasn't around. God knows things. Trust in Him.

Lizzy60
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by Lizzy60 »

lgr3065 wrote:Stourme, I don't see how polygamy helped in your statement above.

I agree. The young widow, sealed to her deceased husband, is supposed to "help" her second husband by sharing him with another wife? She gets to be a sister wife so that he can have a wife sealed to him?

I don't find that helpful.

freedomforall
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by freedomforall »

If polygamy is so necessary for exaltation, then why wasn't Adam given multiple wives? Eve is the Mother of all living so had there been multiple wives, she couldn't in any way have that title. And then there is Noah having one wife only.
If polygamy were so necessary, we would most likely have it, at least, mentioned in the temple.

1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

This verse deals with all living women not just members of the church. It is a general proclamation in letting us know that men will be scarce and that women want to be married. See "reproach" below.

The reproach that was mentioned above is not to do with sealings. The reason is:

1 d reproach
IE the stigma of being unmarried and childless. TG Reproach.

1 a seven
IE because of scarcity of men due to wars. See Isa. 3:25.

Isa. 3:25 (24–25)
24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.
25 Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

freedomforall wrote:
Kingdom of ZION wrote:I declare that they broke of the New and Everlasting Covenant, back in 1890. You probably disagree. Finally I am certain you would not agree that there have been no revelations to the Church from the last one in 1889 to this very day. MY words here about you were true!

I was not trying to rehash and prove what has been proven over and over again here on the boards. Most have never even read the 'Hidden Revelations' that the first few Presidents of the LDS Church received. They were 'Thus saith the Lord" revelations I might add, which there has not been one (1) now in over 125 years, yet before that, there were over a hundred (100+). I can quote what JS said about the need for such references to deity in revelations to be binding upon the Saints, if you need me to (again). These revelations had the spirit in their wording, they had fruits in there fulfillment or consequences in there failure to be heeded. The Church blatantly lied about them for over 60 years until so many Church historians had seen them and testified that they had seen them, and then the web made it absolutely impossible for the Church to continue the mascaraed, they finally recanted. These are historical facts that I was alluding too and now referring too. Yes I have prayed upon these subjects in the True Order of Pray, many many times, and what I have received is much more then I would publicly care to share with those whom it would be casting my pearls before because of their unbelief!

Besides this, saying my prayers are better then your prayers and I hear better then you, is childish in the extreme and proves nothing to each other or anyone else upon this forum. I am stating verifiable historical events and evidence that is backed up by the scriptures for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. Can I prove such to everyone here? No, only the pure in heart who are sincere and willing to look at these facts and get their own revelation upon the matter. You and I have been here before, I at least remember and can see all the way around the tree, having experience this when speaking with you and many different peoples who are at many different levels of understandings, openness to the real truth, and spiritual ability to receive personal revelation. Not all truths are for everyone! It depends on where one is at upon the path. Some truths can harm ones growth then they are not spiritually prepared to receive such. Milk before meat my friend.


With that said, that is how and why I feel the way I do, say the things I say based upon the things I see in the scriptures and from other uncanonized prophecies. Do I feel you have no right to believe the way you do? NO! Can I understand how you can believe what you do? NOT REALLY! You probably feel the same about what I believe. Does my opinions or your opinions make something true? The difference is that my beliefs are not opinions, not made up and don't come to me via hearsay. They are taught me via canonized scripture and the Holy Ghost through prayer, based on a promise. NO! The real facts are what they are, our perceptions are either in harmony with the truth or not.Who's truth?

G_d's truth silly! I never thought you would be so debased with self-importance to think you were the only one to know, G_d is the source of ALL truths, that that was ever in question here. Anyone who can read the scriptures and have any faith in G_d's word knows this. To insinuate otherwise of another is childish beyond the mark. To think your Beliefs are somehow ALL not opinions, not possibly made up, or can't come to you via hearsay, makes you very egotistical.

Time will tell, and by their fruits we shall know how to discern and know the truth of such things.

Shalom
You are very welcome to believe as you wish. I wouldn't want to stand in your way.
I do believe what I believe to be true. The reason behind this is personal, nevertheless, a gift from my Heavenly Father. So I am fully confident that that which I reveal is very much on track. Not perfect, but on track.
I am so confident that I can without any reservation go to Father in prayer, and do just what we are told in scripture to do. And that is to:

2 Nephi 32:9
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

And why is this my friend? BECAUSE, for some it is given and they shall have more in abundance. But for others, it is not given, and even that which they have shall be taken from them.

I am also confident that there are some folks that would tremble in approaching God with false teachings and then trying to pass them on.

I do not see this in people! I see people trying to do the best that they can with what understanding is given them. Maybe you have experiences I do not in this? For even Devils in the flesh do not do this!

I err on occasion but I truly want and desire to teach God's word as he would present himself. God knows my heart and that is my strength and this assists me with that goal.

I never thought otherwise of you, I only said we see it very differently!

If I were to teach false doctrine on purpose, I would expect God to correct me.

That is what has gotten the Church to where it is today... The LDS Church Presidents say, 'I cannot lead this people astray! If I were to G_d would remove me!' That is like the man who through all his coins up in the air and said, G_d will keep His portion (His tithes) and the coins that fall to the ground are all mine!

So before you come here and claim there has been no revelations since 1889, or that the church somehow broke a covenant, I think you better ask God and do less picking and choosing as to what hearsay to pass on.

You might start by reading the very first Section of the D&C and ask yourself who was G_d speaking of? Who has changed the Ordinances and Broken the New and Everlasting Covenant? Who was Mormon speaking TO in chapter 8? Who in the latter days is the 'Church of G_d', who will do these things?

Can you truly approach God in full, unequivocal confidence of the things you say are facts that you know are true and should be passing them on?

Yes, and yes to those whom I am sent to. To others my testimony stands as a witness against those whom receive it not after the spirit bears record unto them.

I don't think so. These things you claim, I discern as your own opinion and not fact. Big difference.
Now the ball is in your court.
I think your ability to discern is colored by your prejudices of past understandings, your unwillingness to openly consider you might have been in error in the past, and the fear of having to become accountable for your own actions if I am right. For the price that would logically come thereafter would be more then you could bear! That is my testimony unto you!

Shalom
...
Last edited by Kingdom of ZION on July 16th, 2015, 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

freedomforall
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by freedomforall »

I learned a long time ago that opinions are like mouths, everyone has one. I don't see the logic in basing a testimony on hearsay and uncanonized literature.
I also learned that no one can go to heaven carrying around someone else's testimony, or on another person's shirt tail. My testimony is sufficient for me, thankyou, the idea that you think that my testimony will be ripped away because I don't believe as you do is quite immature thinking. Why else would you take the effort to post that particular scripture. Further, it is a two way street. Remember that.
A lot of people try so darn hard to bear down on people that don't agree with them. You can believe as you wish, as I have already stated, just don't try to use tactics so as to attempt to get me to believe as you. And I don't need everything that so and so A said, or what so and so B said thrown in my face either. And do not pretend to know me or my thoughts and beliefs. It is quite presumptuous to do so. I have no need to articulate everything I know on this forum...so please stop guessing.
And I truly appreciate all the people that have thanked me for my knowledge and insight, many by PM. So your beliefs are yours and need to stay that way until someone thanks you for your knowledge and insight.
Whoever claims they have the truth...better be right, because there is only one truth and it is the Lord's. That's what I'm interested in...not sixty opinions from sixty different people all trying to be top dog.
Kingdom of ZION wrote: for some it is given and they shall have more in abundance. But for others, it is not given, and even that which they have shall be taken from them.
2 Nephi 28:30
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

2 Nephi 28:30 sure reads different than what you wrote, does it not?

So as long as anyone is willing to learn and grow they will retain the knowledge they have plus gain more. It is when people stop learning and growing that cause their brain to scramble and they can't remember much of the gospel they knew before.

If you really want something to ponder over read this as spoken by Joseph Smith. I researched the exact source and found the writing to be intact as written. SEE: History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

https://carm.org/joseph-smith-boasted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't pretend to know why he said this, nor do I really care. Like I said, my testimony is based on scripture as it should be. Why else are we told to feast upon the word so many times?

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

freedomforall wrote:I don't see the logic in basing a testimony on hearsay and uncanonized literature.

I do not see where you think I have said anything that is based on hearsay? I have said the Church has not received any 'Thou saith the Lord" revelations in 125 years and the ones they did received, they have refused to canonize and have lied their rears off about! That is either fact or fiction! You refuse to address this issue and revert to labeling it hearsay. Have you forgotten I politely said in the beginning, that we both just see it differently, respecting your position?

I also learned that no one can go to heaven carrying around someone else's testimony, or on another person's shirt tail. My testimony is sufficient for me, thankyou, the idea that you think that my testimony will be ripped away because I don't believe as you do is quite immature thinking.

I initially said nothing to you about your testimony, just that we see it differently. When you question how I had reach my testimony and that yours was more valid is when I pointed out more specifically, errors in such thinking. I am still not saying your testimony is in error! If you think they have received revelations and they do get revelation, that they have never hidden the word of the Lord from the Saints, that find, have at it.

Why else would you take the effort to post that particular scripture. Further, it is a two way street. Remember that.

I never quote any scripture, I stated a principle. Yes the Messiah taught it in Matthew and Mark as to why He teaches in parables and in the parable of the talents.

A lot of people try so darn hard to bear down on people that don't agree with them. You can believe as you wish, as I have already stated, just don't try to use tactics so as to attempt to get me to believe as you.

I did not! Go back and read my first post on the topic and then my first response to you. I responded to you and said we just see things differently. It was you who started making it a comparison as to your getting it from prayer, and I was not. So do not try to white wash your words, and now say you were the sheep and somehow I am picking on you.

And I don't need everything that so and so A said, or what so and so B said thrown in my face either. And do not pretend to know me or my thoughts and beliefs. It is quite presumptuous to do so.

I called you on your words, that is hardly throwing what A or B said in your face. The classic example of a weak position is when a person takes personal issue with the other person rather then being willing to talk about the issue. As being presumptuous, I stated clearly your differing point of view. All you have managed to do is make that very clear to everyone I was telling the truth.

I have no need to articulate everything I know on this forum...so please stop guessing.

I never was, nor do I really care to! You either want to discuss CPM and the specifics about talking about it here, or you might be on the wrong thread?

And I truly appreciate all the people that have thanked me for my knowledge and insight, many by PM. So your beliefs are yours and need to stay that way until someone thanks you for your knowledge and insight.

I am not here for the applause of men. I never doubted that you have things to offer here to the subject, or even that your opinion was not in the majority. Nice to know heaven is not a popularity contest.

Whoever claims they have the truth...better be right, because there is only one truth and it is the Lord's. That's what I'm interested in...not sixty opinions from sixty different people all trying to be top dog.

We can see only what we are, we expect only what we are willing to give, and shall one day be known and seen as to who we are and where we belong.
Kingdom of ZION wrote: for some it is given and they shall have more in abundance. But for others, it is not given, and even that which they have shall be taken from them.
2 Nephi 28:30
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

2 Nephi 28:30 sure reads different than what you wrote, does it not?

No, same principle, just another example in the scriptures where it is being taught in the BoM. And just how would you apply this scripture to those who received Celestial Plural Marriage and the New and Everlasting Covenant? I think you might want to rethink what the Messiah was saying here... I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept... 'blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel... unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.'

The FULLNESS of the Gospel was given line upon line, but after a while men started to not hearken unto His precepts and counsel. They said, G_d does no longer require us to live these things. And because they have done this, and said enough is enough, from them was taken away even that which they have. Continual revelation from true Prophets, the kingdom and the will to gather and build Zion, and even their understanding of the New and Everlasting Covenant, as to what it is!


So as long as anyone is willing to learn and grow they will retain the knowledge they have plus gain more. It is when people stop learning and growing that cause their brain to scramble and they can't remember much of the gospel they knew before.

If you really want something to ponder over read this as spoken by Joseph Smith. I researched the exact source and found the writing to be intact as written. SEE: History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

I will get back to you on this... but something you might want to ponder yourself. The Messiah said that there will be those who go on to do greater works then this (referring to others and His works).

https://carm.org/joseph-smith-boasted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't pretend to know why he said this, nor do I really care. Like I said, my testimony is based on scripture as it should be. Why else are we told to feast upon the word so many times?

So what would you say to a JW (Jehovah Witness) who says this is what it says in our Bible? Or a CoC (RLDS), this is what it says in our scriptures? Or the LDS who has the tenth newly published version of their scriptures?

Stourme
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by Stourme »

Lizzy60 wrote:
lgr3065 wrote:Stourme, I don't see how polygamy helped in your statement above.

I agree. The young widow, sealed to her deceased husband, is supposed to "help" her second husband by sharing him with another wife? She gets to be a sister wife so that he can have a wife sealed to him?

I don't find that helpful.
You don't find exaltation helpful?

D&C 132
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

ChristisRisen
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by ChristisRisen »

What is the world coming to when I find myself agreeing with FreedomforAll? LOL ;)

freedomforall
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by freedomforall »

Kingdom of ZION wrote:
freedomforall wrote:I don't see the logic in basing a testimony on hearsay and uncanonized literature.

I do not see where you think I have said anything that is based on hearsay? I have said the Church has not received any 'Thou saith the Lord" revelations in 125 years and the ones they did received, they have refused to canonize and have lied their rears off about! That is either fact or fiction! You refuse to address this issue and revert to labeling it hearsay. Have you forgotten I politely said in the beginning, that we both just see it differently, respecting your position?

I also learned that no one can go to heaven carrying around someone else's testimony, or on another person's shirt tail. My testimony is sufficient for me, thankyou, the idea that you think that my testimony will be ripped away because I don't believe as you do is quite immature thinking.

I initially said nothing to you about your testimony, just that we see it differently. When you question how I had reach my testimony and that yours was more valid is when I pointed out more specifically, errors in such thinking. I am still not saying your testimony is in error! If you think they have received revelations and they do get revelation, that they have never hidden the word of the Lord from the Saints, that find, have at it. You do know this is a pro-lds site don't you? To promote the idea the church has had no revelation for 125 years is clearly preposterous, not to mention forum rules.

Why else would you take the effort to post that particular scripture. Further, it is a two way street. Remember that.

I never quote any scripture, I stated a principle. What for? Tell me, what did that have to do with you and I disagreeing on beliefs? Yes the Messiah taught it in Matthew and Mark as to why He teaches in parables and in the parable of the talents.

A lot of people try so darn hard to bear down on people that don't agree with them. You can believe as you wish, as I have already stated, just don't try to use tactics so as to attempt to get me to believe as you.

I did not! Go back and read my first post on the topic and then my first response to you. I responded to you and said we just see things differently. It was you who started making it a comparison as to your getting it from prayer, and I was not. So do not try to white wash your words, and now say you were the sheep and somehow I am picking on you. Have it your way.

And I don't need everything that so and so A said, or what so and so B said thrown in my face either. And do not pretend to know me or my thoughts and beliefs. It is quite presumptuous to do so.

I called you on your words, that is hardly throwing what A or B said in your face. The classic example of a weak position is when a person takes personal issue with the other person rather then being willing to talk about the issue. As being presumptuous, I stated clearly your differing point of view. All you have managed to do is make that very clear to everyone I was telling the truth. Your truth...I happen not to embrace it. I said to believe as you wish, twice, now three times. Didn't you get the memo?

I have no need to articulate everything I know on this forum...so please stop guessing.

I never was, nor do I really care to! You either want to discuss CPM and the specifics about talking about it here, or you might be on the wrong thread? You got that right. I am on the wrong thread, that is abundantly evident.

And I truly appreciate all the people that have thanked me for my knowledge and insight, many by PM. So your beliefs are yours and need to stay that way until someone thanks you for your knowledge and insight.

I am not here for the applause of men. I never doubted that you have things to offer here to the subject, or even that your opinion was not in the majority. Nice to know heaven is not a popularity contest.Nor should it be. On this I agree.

Whoever claims they have the truth...better be right, because there is only one truth and it is the Lord's. That's what I'm interested in...not sixty opinions from sixty different people all trying to be top dog.

We can see only what we are, we expect only what we are willing to give, and shall one day be known and seen as to who we are and where we belong. Agreed.
Kingdom of ZION wrote: for some it is given and they shall have more in abundance. But for others, it is not given, and even that which they have shall be taken from them.
2 Nephi 28:30
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

2 Nephi 28:30 sure reads different than what you wrote, does it not?

No, same principle, just another example in the scriptures where it is being taught in the BoM. And just how would you apply this scripture to those who received Celestial Plural Marriage and the New and Everlasting Covenant? I think you might want to rethink what the Messiah was saying here... I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept... 'blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel... unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.' Agreed, but what does this have to do with us disagreeing on some points? There had to be a motive behind it.

The FULLNESS of the Gospel was given line upon line, but after a while men started to not hearken unto His precepts and counsel. They said, G_d does no longer require us to live these things. And because they have done this, and said enough is enough, from them was taken away even that which they have. Continual revelation from true Prophets, the kingdom and the will to gather and build Zion, and even their understanding of the New and Everlasting Covenant, as to what it is!
Oh, so now you have a different gospel and church to promote because what you say here is that the present day church is out of the way and this is why they no longer receive revelation. You do know that the New and Everlasting Covenant is eternal marriage of a man and woman being sealed to one another, right?. And now you seem to be claiming all the sealings done are invalid according to your thinking. You cannot say the Covenant has been broken and not mean this very point.

So as long as anyone is willing to learn and grow they will retain the knowledge they have plus gain more. It is when people stop learning and growing that cause their brain to scramble and they can't remember much of the gospel they knew before.

If you really want something to ponder over read this as spoken by Joseph Smith. I researched the exact source and found the writing to be intact as written. SEE: History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

I will get back to you on this... but something you might want to ponder yourself. The Messiah said that there will be those who go on to do greater works then this (referring to others and His works).

https://carm.org/joseph-smith-boasted" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't pretend to know why he said this, nor do I really care. Like I said, my testimony is based on scripture as it should be. Why else are we told to feast upon the word so many times?

So what would you say to a JW (Jehovah Witness) who says this is what it says in our Bible? Or a CoC (RLDS), this is what it says in our scriptures? Or the LDS who has the tenth newly published version of their scriptures?
Why do you continue to engage in defending your testimony? You asked me what I would say to a JW if they were to ask me biblical based questions. I would tell them the same thing I tell you, bring all the knowledge that you have and let's see if we can add to it.

I've really had enough of this discussion, however, by promoting some of these unfounded accusations coming from your corner, expect others to challenge them as I have. There have been others with similar views as you and they are either no longer on the forum, or post much less often. After all, this is a pro-LDS site according to Brian
.

freedomforall
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by freedomforall »

ChristisRisen wrote:What is the world coming to when I find myself agreeing with FreedomforAll? LOL ;)
You mean for the very first time I said something notable? Makes me feel real bumpity all over. Oh, no, I've got an acute case of zits! :)) ;)

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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

..The Only Marriage in the Celestial realm is Plural Marriages. Without living this Law here in hell, as marriage is given in this world, not the world to come, there is no binding sealings because they have not keep their Covenants nor lived the Law!

I told you to go and read D&C 1 for your answer. Also Mormon 8, you never bothered...

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

freedomforall wrote:I just have to ask, is your Avatar a selfie? Tell me, just who is asking? Does the avatar depict someone in your family tree? Or are you just plain being mean in spite of your beliefs?
Just pulling your leg like your doing me...

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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by freedomforall »

D&C 1
1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who dwells on high, and whose eyes are upon all men; yea, verily I say: Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.

2 For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.

3 And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

4 And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.

5 And they shall go forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.

6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants, and my preface unto the book of my commandments, which I have given them to publish unto you, O inhabitants of the earth.

7 Wherefore, fear and tremble, O ye people, for what I the Lord have decreed in them shall be fulfilled.

8 And verily I say unto you, that they who go forth, bearing these tidings unto the inhabitants of the earth, to them is power given to seal both on earth and in heaven, the unbelieving and rebellious;

9 Yea, verily, to seal them up unto the day when the wrath of God shall be poured out upon the wicked without measure—

10 Unto the day when the Lord shall come to recompense unto every man according to his work, and measure to every man according to the measure which he has measured to his fellow man.

11 Wherefore the voice of the Lord is unto the ends of the earth, that all that will hear may hear:

12 Prepare ye, prepare ye for that which is to come, for the Lord is nigh;

13 And the anger of the Lord is kindled, and his sword is bathed in heaven, and it shall fall upon the inhabitants of the earth.

14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

15 For they have strayed from mine ordinances, and have broken mine everlasting covenant;

16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.

17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;

18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—

19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—

20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world;

21 That faith also might increase in the earth;

22 That mine everlasting covenant might be established;

23 That the fulness of my gospel might be proclaimed by the weak and the simple unto the ends of the world, and before kings and rulers.

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

29 And after having received the record of the Nephites, yea, even my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., might have power to translate through the mercy of God, by the power of God, the Book of Mormon.

30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

32 Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven;

33 And he that repents not, from him shall be taken even the light which he has received; for my Spirit shall not always strive with man, saith the Lord of Hosts.

34 And again, verily I say unto you, O inhabitants of the earth: I the Lord am willing to make these things known unto all flesh;

35 For I am no respecter of persons, and will that all men shall know that the day speedily cometh; the hour is not yet, but is nigh at hand, when peace shall be taken from the earth, and the devil shall have power over his own dominion.

36 And also the Lord shall have power over his saints, and shall reign in their midst, and shall come down in judgment upon Idumea, or the world.

37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth abideth forever and ever. Amen.

Mormon 8
1 Behold I, Moroni, do finish the record of my father, Mormon. Behold, I have but few things to write, which things I have been commanded by my father.

2 And now it came to pass that after the great and tremendous battle at Cumorah, behold, the Nephites who had escaped into the country southward were hunted by the Lamanites, until they were all destroyed.

3 And my father also was killed by them, and I even remain alone to write the sad tale of the destruction of my people. But behold, they are gone, and I fulfil the commandment of my father. And whether they will slay me, I know not.

4 Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not.

5 Behold, my father hath made this record, and he hath written the intent thereof. And behold, I would write it also if I had room upon the plates, but I have not; and ore I have none, for I am alone. My father hath been slain in battle, and all my kinsfolk, and I have not friends nor whither to go; and how long the Lord will suffer that I may live I know not.

6 Behold, four hundred years have passed away since the coming of our Lord and Savior.

7 And behold, the Lamanites have hunted my people, the Nephites, down from city to city and from place to place, even until they are no more; and great has been their fall; yea, great and marvelous is the destruction of my people, the Nephites.

8 And behold, it is the hand of the Lord which hath done it. And behold also, the Lamanites are at war one with another; and the whole face of this land is one continual round of murder and bloodshed; and no one knoweth the end of the war.

9 And now, behold, I say no more concerning them, for there are none save it be the Lamanites and robbers that do exist upon the face of the land.

10 And there are none that do know the true God save it be the disciples of Jesus, who did tarry in the land until the wickedness of the people was so great that the Lord would not suffer them to remain with the people; and whether they be upon the face of the land no man knoweth.

11 But behold, my father and I have seen them, and they have ministered unto us.

12 And whoso receiveth this record, and shall not condemn it because of the imperfections which are in it, the same shall know of greater things than these. Behold, I am Moroni; and were it possible, I would make all things known unto you.

13 Behold, I make an end of speaking concerning this people. I am the son of Mormon, and my father was a descendant of Nephi.

14 And I am the same who hideth up this record unto the Lord; the plates thereof are of no worth, because of the commandment of the Lord. For he truly saith that no one shall have them to get gain; but the record thereof is of great worth; and whoso shall bring it to light, him will the Lord bless.

15 For none can have power to bring it to light save it be given him of God; for God wills that it shall be done with an eye single to his glory, or the welfare of the ancient and long dispersed covenant people of the Lord.

16 And blessed be he that shall bring this thing to light; for it shall be brought out of darkness unto light, according to the word of God; yea, it shall be brought out of the earth, and it shall shine forth out of darkness, and come unto the knowledge of the people; and it shall be done by the power of God.

17 And if there be faults they be the faults of a man. But behold, we know no fault; nevertheless God knoweth all things; therefore, he that condemneth, let him be aware lest he shall be in danger of hell fire.

18 And he that saith: Show unto me, or ye shall be smitten—let him beware lest he commandeth that which is forbidden of the Lord.

19 For behold, the same that judgeth rashly shall be judged rashly again; for according to his works shall his wages be; therefore, he that smiteth shall be smitten again, of the Lord.

20 Behold what the scripture says—man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay.

21 And he that shall breathe out wrath and strifes against the work of the Lord, and against the covenant people of the Lord who are the house of Israel, and shall say: We will destroy the work of the Lord, and the Lord will not remember his covenant which he hath made unto the house of Israel—the same is in danger to be hewn down and cast into the fire;

22 For the eternal purposes of the Lord shall roll on, until all his promises shall be fulfilled.

23 Search the prophecies of Isaiah. Behold, I cannot write them. Yea, behold I say unto you, that those saints who have gone before me, who have possessed this land, shall cry, yea, even from the dust will they cry unto the Lord; and as the Lord liveth he will remember the covenant which he hath made with them.

24 And he knoweth their prayers, that they were in behalf of their brethren. And he knoweth their faith, for in his name could they remove mountains; and in his name could they cause the earth to shake; and by the power of his word did they cause prisons to tumble to the earth; yea, even the fiery furnace could not harm them, neither wild beasts nor poisonous serpents, because of the power of his word.

25 And behold, their prayers were also in behalf of him that the Lord should suffer to bring these things forth.

26 And no one need say they shall not come, for they surely shall, for the Lord hath spoken it; for out of the earth shall they come, by the hand of the Lord, and none can stay it; and it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;

30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.

31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.

32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

I see the problem. You clump everyone into a neat little package then claim they all went astray or are not living the gospel as you see it. You also feel you have the right to judge everyone with the premise that we're all covenant breakers and unrepentant sinners.
Well, I've got news for you...the church is true, it is Christ's church. There are less than committed steadfast and immovable members in it, yet there are many who are doing their level best to keep the commandments, to be humble and meek and try to hear the voice of he Lord, and to keep their covenants. To clump everyone into the same mold is outright ridiculous and wrong. The Lord was speaking collectively and not individually. Why else did he say that "few there be that find it?" That tells us that there are members and non members on the right track. To clump everyone together is to damn every single human being.
It isn't the church, as you claim, that has gone out of the way, it is people in it...just like every other church as mentioned in Mormon 8. Remember, there are but two churches, the church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil. Those who choose not to seek Christ and live as he teaches are part of the church of the devil, no matter what church they belong to. There is no in between. Yet there are a lot of very fine people around doing the best they can with the knowledge they have that belong to the church of the Lamb. Work will be done during the Millennium to give all people an opportunity to partake of the covenants necessary for exaltation. This is where the LDS church comes in...we have all those covenants, but if people break their covenants, it isn't the fault of the church, now is it?
It is pure folly to clump everyone into the same mold just to justify some ridiculous notion that the church, as a whole, has gone into a sinkhole.
Do you need scriptures proving what I say? The operative words to the whole issue are..."few there be that find it. It is the "few" that are the Lord's sheep, and his sheep hear his voice. See; 3 Nephi 14:14

1 Ne. 14:12
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

From D&C 1
14 And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;

1) they who will not hear the voice of the Lord) Is this everyone? No.
2) neither the voice of his servants) Are his servants important? Have they gone off the deep end? No, or they couldn't be his servants.
3) neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles) So now we have servants, prophets and apostles.
4) shall be cut off from among the people) Who will be cut off? The whole church or just the rebellious and haughty?

I rest my case.

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Rachael
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by Rachael »

Stourme the only way your scenario helps the case of polygamy is in leverite marriage

Judah had sons by a caananite woman. He marries the oldest to a woman named Tamar. He dies. The ways laws of inheritance worked, the eldest got pretty much all (promigeniture). Now if Onan, the second son, fathered a child by Tamar he inherited when his brother died, he would have knocked himself out as the next in line...so he "pulled out" as a form of birth control and the Lord smites him dead. Tamar has to seduce her father in law to redeem the Messianic bloodline.

That's why it doesn't help your case yet it does. Your bishop can redeem the widow but the seed is some one else's. So yeah under leverite law, if he wants his own legacy he needs another wife.good case for polygamy since he is in a proxy situation. Since this is an LDS forum proxy shouldn't need explanation
Last edited by Rachael on July 17th, 2015, 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rachael
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by Rachael »

And at risk of getting my post deleted, I will ask a few questions in general terms instead of naming names:

For the pro polygamous males, is your current spouse inadequate to meet your needs?

For the ladies who keep defending this, do you want to share your husband with me? How would you feel on the nights he was absent visualizing him being intimate with me? Would it pierce your heart with deep wounds? If I was 17 and you were 43 , hubby 47, would you think he dealt treacherously with you, the wife of his youth?

Ladies stop defending the indefensible

PS: don't rationalize that nobody gets jealous in the next life. God is in the next life and He admits He is a jealous God. Fidelity is eternal

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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by slimjamm »

Ultimately, you are asking others to prove or show you truth of a Heavenly law, that not even the Lord Himself can currently teach you. Why? Because of where your heart is. You've been hurt by a husband, you haven't allowed the atonement of Christ, to fully heal that heart; and while your countenance is down, Satan will continue to pervert and twist your understanding and accepting the laws of God. You will always be free to dismiss the laws of Heaven, but not when completely honest with yourself.

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Rachael
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by Rachael »

According to many of the journals of polygamous wives in BYs Utah I'm not the only one hurt by a husband.


That said I agree with the rest of your post (just not your premise) and I'm working on it

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slimjamm
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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by slimjamm »

Rachael wrote:According to many of the journals of polygamous wives in BYs Utah I'm not the only one hurt by a husband.


That said I agree with the rest of your post (just not your premise) and I'm working on it
I apologize if my statement came across as insensitive. Not my intention. :)

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Re: Polygamy Discussions and the LDSFF Rules

Post by shadow »

Rachael wrote:And at risk of getting my post deleted, I will ask a few questions in general terms instead of naming names:

For the pro polygamous males, is your current spouse inadequate to meet your needs?
There maybe one, possibly two who are actually pro polygamy on this site. There's a difference in understanding that polygamy has been ordained of God in a few situations vs. wanting to live it ourselves.
For example, I believe God approves and requires polygamy sometimes, He even has more than one wife himself, but I certainly wouldn't want to have more than one wife. I've even opined that if my wife passed away, I'd stay married to only her. But just because I wouldn't want that lifestyle doesn't mean that it can't be ordained of God.

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