Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

For discussing the Church, Gospel of Jesus Christ, Mormonism, etc.
log
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2077
Location: The Fireplace of Affliction

Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by log »

The real point to excommunication is to exile those who won't keep the house rules so that, once outside the house, the excommunicant will learn by experience which society, and which rules, he really wants to keep.

Or, alternatively: There's no reason to complain. If you get ex'd, don't go away mad, just go away. If you want back in the clubhouse, submit to the house rules. If you don't wanna submit to the house rules, why do you want in? Start your own club, or find a more congenial society.

I'm being serious.

One might see this life as an application of this principle - we have been exiled to learn by experience which society, and which rules, we really want to keep.

minorityofone
captain of 100
Posts: 513

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by minorityofone »

Thanks log I agree completely.

If there is any fear of leaving the club then something is wrong. This means you are worried you might be wrong, or you are afraid of what others might think. Either way there is a problem.

Cookies
captain of 100
Posts: 618

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by Cookies »

minorityofone wrote: This means you are worried you might be wrong, or you are afraid of what others might think.
Or both! :-s

KMCopeland
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2279
Location: The American South

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by KMCopeland »

log wrote:The real point to excommunication is to exile those who won't keep the house rules so that, once outside the house, the excommunicant will learn by experience which society, and which rules, he really wants to keep.
A good description of all effective punishment. Where the Church is concerned, and when it's excommunicating adults instead of children who often actually need to be taught a lesson, I just wish it wasn't quite so punishment-happy.
log wrote:Or, alternatively: There's no reason to complain. If you get ex'd, don't go away mad, just go away. If you want back in the clubhouse, submit to the house rules. If you don't wanna submit to the house rules, why do you want in? Start your own club, or find a more congenial society.
I think that's a little more honest about what excommunication really is.

I wish there were more understanding of just how traumatic excommunication is for someone who's built his life, both spiritual and temporal, around the church he may have developed some issues with. Your second option is quite rational. It might be good to consider the emotional side of it as well.

log
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2077
Location: The Fireplace of Affliction

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by log »

KMC,

Would you believe I consider both of those paragraphs to be saying the exact same thing, only from different sides?

Once one realizes that by coming down here we have been excommunicated, it throws an entirely new light on the endowments, the parable of the prodigal, and how the road to hell is perhaps indeed literally paved with good intentions - at least intentions most would consider to be good.

KMCopeland
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2279
Location: The American South

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by KMCopeland »

log wrote:KMC,

Would you believe I consider both of those paragraphs to be saying the exact same thing, only from different sides?
I think they're pretty different.
log wrote:Once one realizes that by coming down here we have been excommunicated, it throws an entirely new light on the endowments, the parable of the prodigal, and how the road to hell is perhaps indeed literally paved with good intentions - at least intentions most would consider to be good.
Fully agree. But that excommunication is substantially different from the one we're talking about.

And I know about that place that the road to it is paved with good intentions. I know about the road too. We probably all do. But the road to heaven is also paved with good intentions that we followed through on. I'm not sure where the road forks. Maybe that's what we're all here to find out.

User avatar
Simon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1865
Contact:

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by Simon »

log wrote:KMC,

Would you believe I consider both of those paragraphs to be saying the exact same thing, only from different sides?

Once one realizes that by coming down here we have been excommunicated, it throws an entirely new light on the endowments, the parable of the prodigal, and how the road to hell is perhaps indeed literally paved with good intentions - at least intentions most would consider to be good.
Only with the difference that coming to this earth was a joyfull agreement on both sides, chosen by free will...what can not be said of excommunication.

I believe excommunication should serve as a tool to extent love, and concern for those members affected... and after excommunication all should be done to have them return joyfully. It becomes evil in my sight if excommunication is merely used as a tool to excercise power and authority.. which surely does happen though

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by jwharton »

log wrote:The real point to excommunication is to exile those who won't keep the house rules so that, once outside the house, the excommunicant will learn by experience which society, and which rules, he really wants to keep.

Or, alternatively: There's no reason to complain. If you get ex'd, don't go away mad, just go away. If you want back in the clubhouse, submit to the house rules. If you don't wanna submit to the house rules, why do you want in? Start your own club, or find a more congenial society.

I'm being serious.

One might see this life as an application of this principle - we have been exiled to learn by experience which society, and which rules, we really want to keep.
A very different picture emerges when you view excommunication as spiritual capital punishment.
This is the process of shedding someone's spiritual blood, so to speak, in denying them the Holy Ghost.
Because we are spiritually born by way of joining the church, we are spiritually executed when cast out.

If our government deems someone who killed someone worthy of the death sentence, they will actually die.
It doesn't matter if the person was guilty or innocent of the crime, when they are executed, they are dead.
If you believe the officers of the church actually have authority to act in God's name and have power, the reality is the same.
When the person authorized to perform spiritual capital punishment executes the decree, the deed is done.
If someone doesn't feel a difference then they can be pretty sure they weren't operating by the Holy Ghost before.
This isn't to say they won't be able to enjoy the light of Christ as any non-member can, but there is a tangible loss.
For someone to have been born of the Spirit and then to deny that Spirit a place in you, the result is perdition.
This is what it speaks of when it says it would have been better for them not to have been born.

However, we also know that God will make right any injustice performed in His name.
There is a way that unjust excommunications will be rectified, but sacrifice for a time is required.

An important thing to remember is the dynamic which took place between Cain and Abel.
And, in order to be able to make this story personally relevant to us here and now...
... lets view Cain and Abel as a collective of people who are operating by the influence of a distinct spirit.
Those who are members of Cain's body will be overcome by the delusions of Lucifer.
Those who are members of Abel's body will hold true and faithful to the acceptable offering.

Well, we know how the story goes, Cain uses "murder for gain" in order to get Abel out of the way.
So, if there is an alternative counterfeit plan that is supplanting the Father's plan, excommunication is Cain's tool of choice.

The point all of this is leading up to is this:

Pearl of Great Price Moses 5
35 And the Lord said: What hast thou done? The voice of thy brother's blood cries unto me from the ground.

Those who were of Abel's body who were adamant to render the acceptable offering who were unjustly put to spiritual death will indeed cry out from the ground to God against their murderers. It is because they do this that notice is finally taken and then Cain is cursed and becomes the Son of Perdition. And, what is his punishment? He reaps upon himself the very consequences he unjustly put upon Abel, while Abel shall be reclaimed and redeemed and be brought unto Eternal Life in the world to come.

deep water
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2056

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by deep water »

jwharton; What you have written, needs to be read by everyone who participates in a disciplinary council. I have witnessed the after effects of participates who did not heed such a warning.

EdGoble
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1077

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by EdGoble »

jwharton wrote:
log wrote:The real point to excommunication is to exile those who won't keep the house rules so that, once outside the house, the excommunicant will learn by experience which society, and which rules, he really wants to keep.

Or, alternatively: There's no reason to complain. If you get ex'd, don't go away mad, just go away. If you want back in the clubhouse, submit to the house rules. If you don't wanna submit to the house rules, why do you want in? Start your own club, or find a more congenial society.

I'm being serious.

One might see this life as an application of this principle - we have been exiled to learn by experience which society, and which rules, we really want to keep.
A very different picture emerges when you view excommunication as spiritual capital punishment.
This is the process of shedding someone's spiritual blood, so to speak, in denying them the Holy Ghost.
Because we are spiritually born by way of joining the church, we are spiritually executed when cast out.

If our government deems someone who killed someone worthy of the death sentence, they will actually die.
It doesn't matter if the person was guilty or innocent of the crime, when they are executed, they are dead.
If you believe the officers of the church actually have authority to act in God's name and have power, the reality is the same.
When the person authorized to perform spiritual capital punishment executes the decree, the deed is done.
If someone doesn't feel a difference then they can be pretty sure they weren't operating by the Holy Ghost before.
This isn't to say they won't be able to enjoy the light of Christ as any non-member can, but there is a tangible loss.
For someone to have been born of the Spirit and then to deny that Spirit a place in you, the result is perdition.
This is what it speaks of when it says it would have been better for them not to have been born.

However, we also know that God will make right any injustice performed in His name.
There is a way that unjust excommunications will be rectified, but sacrifice for a time is required.

An important thing to remember is the dynamic which took place between Cain and Abel.
And, in order to be able to make this story personally relevant to us here and now...
... lets view Cain and Abel as a collective of people who are operating by the influence of a distinct spirit.
Those who are members of Cain's body will be overcome by the delusions of Lucifer.
Those who are members of Abel's body will hold true and faithful to the acceptable offering.

Well, we know how the story goes, Cain uses "murder for gain" in order to get Abel out of the way.
So, if there is an alternative counterfeit plan that is supplanting the Father's plan, excommunication is Cain's tool of choice.

The point all of this is leading up to is this:

Pearl of Great Price Moses 5
35 And the Lord said: What hast thou done? The voice of thy brother's blood cries unto me from the ground.

Those who were of Abel's body who were adamant to render the acceptable offering who were unjustly put to spiritual death will indeed cry out from the ground to God against their murderers. It is because they do this that notice is finally taken and then Cain is cursed and becomes the Son of Perdition. And, what is his punishment? He reaps upon himself the very consequences he unjustly put upon Abel, while Abel shall be reclaimed and redeemed and be brought unto Eternal Life in the world to come.
I can concur with some of this, but not all. As I always say, people can avoid being excommunicated if they simply submit to all the demands of the authorities, and give them what they want, even if some of it is unreasonable. People should be entirely willing to sacrifice everything to preserve their membership, even sacrificing books they have written, blogs, or whatever else, to satiate the demands of the authorities. The most obvious demonstration of pride is someone that refuses to submit even if they don't like the demands. 99% of the time, an excommunication unrelated to the law of chastity only happens because someone has some "cause" that they are not willing to sacrifice. And whatever that is, I say that if they are not willing to sacrifice that for some misled notion of "integrity," then they are truly apostate in some way. If people do not submit even under what they view is "unrighteous dominion," then they haven't thought it through well enough. A better strategy is to FIRST submit to the demand to diffuse the situation with the local leader by submission, and THEN go over the head of the authority in question and appeal to the higher authorities AFTER.

If the demands of the authorities are truly "unrighteous dominion," then going over their heads AFTER the situation is diffused usually would probably result in their actions being overridden and the lower authority being put in his place and reprimanded. Because chances are, most people at some level of hierarchy are very reasonable people. I just get sick of people pretending that they are victims when they decide to go head to head with authority and challenge it head on. If they do such a thing, that is a demonstration of their pride, and they in some sense deserve to be excommunicated regardless of the rightness of the cause they espouse, because they challenged priesthood authority and became at enmity with it. That is the fundamental definition of apostasy. Apostasy is seldom about a "cause" or a "belief" but has more to do with how someone behaves when trying to assert their "right" to have or express this cause or belief. To be a heretic doesn't automatically make one an apostate. An apostate status has more to do with behavior than unorthodoxy.

Denver Snuffer and John Dehlin are classic examples of people that could have avoided their fate by simply submitting and THEN going up the chain. They are not victims. They are casualties of pride.

Now, as for excommunication, I say yes, it is spiritual capital punishment, because with the Lord, all things are spiritual. Spiritual capital punishment is banishment from the Lord's presence. This is the second death. This is the true meaning of the penalties that were removed from the temple. And they were removed because they were symbols that became distractions, no longer serving the purpose that they were meant to serve, to remind people of the seriousness of spiritual capital punishment when they make serious commitments and break them.

deep water
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2056

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by deep water »

EdGoble; So you would condemn Christ to pay tribute to those who expressed authority over Him? Take some time off and study your scriptures, it will be fascinating what you can find there.

EdGoble
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1077

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by EdGoble »

deep water wrote:EdGoble; So you would condemn Christ to pay tribute to those who expressed authority over Him? Take some time off and study your scriptures, it will be fascinating what you can find there.
Fortunately for this thread, I've committed to not enter into more contention here, so I will not dignify you with a response to that. I am now entering into threads, making my statement and leaving. If you don't agree, then you don't agree, and I go on with my day. I don't owe you anything.

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10306
Contact:

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by marc »

Ed, I love you, man! =))

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by jwharton »

EdGoble wrote:
deep water wrote:EdGoble; So you would condemn Christ to pay tribute to those who expressed authority over Him? Take some time off and study your scriptures, it will be fascinating what you can find there.
Fortunately for this thread, I've committed to not enter into more contention here, so I will not dignify you with a response to that. I am now entering into threads, making my statement and leaving. If you don't agree, then you don't agree, and I go on with my day. I don't owe you anything.
Ed, thanks for chipping in. I too believe penitence and sacrifice of personal ambition would be worth it if that is all it took to preserve your spiritual life. I won't go quite as far as you to judge the appropriateness of certain people's excommunications because I am not privy to the contents of their hearts and what may have been revealed to them that the Lord expected them to do.

deepwater, rather than take a swipe at Ed, how about you go ahead and share some of the scriptures that you believe are fascinating?

User avatar
Joel
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7043

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by Joel »

Ed is awesome! I think he has YAGE more than anyone on this forum, yet he keeps coming back because he loves us! :ymhug:

User avatar
rewcox
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5873

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by rewcox »

EdGoble wrote:I can concur with some of this, but not all. As I always say, people can avoid being excommunicated if they simply submit to all the demands of the authorities, and give them what they want, even if some of it is unreasonable. People should be entirely willing to sacrifice everything to preserve their membership, even sacrificing books they have written, blogs, or whatever else, to satiate the demands of the authorities. The most obvious demonstration of pride is someone that refuses to submit even if they don't like the demands. 99% of the time, an excommunication unrelated to the law of chastity only happens because someone has some "cause" that they are not willing to sacrifice. And whatever that is, I say that if they are not willing to sacrifice that for some misled notion of "integrity," then they are truly apostate in some way. If people do not submit even under what they view is "unrighteous dominion," then they haven't thought it through well enough. A better strategy is to FIRST submit to the demand to diffuse the situation with the local leader by submission, and THEN go over the head of the authority in question and appeal to the higher authorities AFTER.

If the demands of the authorities are truly "unrighteous dominion," then going over their heads AFTER the situation is diffused usually would probably result in their actions being overridden and the lower authority being put in his place and reprimanded. Because chances are, most people at some level of hierarchy are very reasonable people. I just get sick of people pretending that they are victims when they decide to go head to head with authority and challenge it head on. If they do such a thing, that is a demonstration of their pride, and they in some sense deserve to be excommunicated regardless of the rightness of the cause they espouse, because they challenged priesthood authority and became at enmity with it. That is the fundamental definition of apostasy. Apostasy is seldom about a "cause" or a "belief" but has more to do with how someone behaves when trying to assert their "right" to have or express this cause or belief. To be a heretic doesn't automatically make one an apostate. An apostate status has more to do with behavior than unorthodoxy.

Denver Snuffer and John Dehlin are classic examples of people that could have avoided their fate by simply submitting and THEN going up the chain. They are not victims. They are casualties of pride.

Now, as for excommunication, I say yes, it is spiritual capital punishment, because with the Lord, all things are spiritual. Spiritual capital punishment is banishment from the Lord's presence. This is the second death. This is the true meaning of the penalties that were removed from the temple. And they were removed because they were symbols that became distractions, no longer serving the purpose that they were meant to serve, to remind people of the seriousness of spiritual capital punishment when they make serious commitments and break them.
Good points Ed. I don't know of a recent one that was out of line.

Mosiah 26 also talks about names being removed, for those who won't repent.

Ribble
captain of 100
Posts: 169

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by Ribble »

EdGoble wrote:
deep water wrote:EdGoble; So you would condemn Christ to pay tribute to those who expressed authority over Him? Take some time off and study your scriptures, it will be fascinating what you can find there.
Fortunately for this thread, I've committed to not enter into more contention here, so I will not dignify you with a response to that. I am now entering into threads, making my statement and leaving. If you don't agree, then you don't agree, and I go on with my day. I don't owe you anything.

Way to go, Ed! :ymhug:

Those who engage in snide and derogatory remarks are becoming harder for me to tolerate. There is no point in being rude and condescending. It's bad form and unchristian.
Last edited by Ribble on April 10th, 2015, 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

deep water
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2056

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by deep water »

jwharton wrote:
deepwater, rather than take a swipe at Ed, how about you go ahead and share some of the scriptures that you believe are fascinating?
[/quote]


I have already done that in a PM. Thanks anyway.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by jwharton »

deep water wrote:
jwharton wrote:
deepwater, rather than take a swipe at Ed, how about you go ahead and share some of the scriptures that you believe are fascinating?
I have already done that in a PM. Thanks anyway.
I'd like to see them too.

User avatar
Original_Intent
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 12978

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by Original_Intent »

Excommunication is a two-edged sword that I think more often cuts the wielder than the target.

User avatar
Simon
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1865
Contact:

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by Simon »

ED, doing everything no matter what is required sounds a little too much like being brainwashed to me. Always standing up for truth, yes, that is a good thing. But living lies to protect truth? Dont say this is what happens all the time with excommunications, I just mean to say to simply follow orders, no matter what, makes no big difference to communism.

User avatar
A Random Phrase
Follower of Christ
Posts: 6468
Location: Staring at my computer, not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by A Random Phrase »

EdGoble wrote:I am now entering into threads, making my statement and leaving. If you don't agree, then you don't agree, and I go on with my day. I don't owe you anything.
That's awesome! Good on you.

If all of us had that attitude, we'd have a whole lot less contention. (I do like some back and forth if it is civil, but many times I have expressed my opinion only to have it challenged and I felt rather like I was being pressed to fight and defend when all I was doing ... I thought ... was expressing my opinion, which I have a right to have.)

inquirringmind
captain of 100
Posts: 899

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by inquirringmind »

log wrote:The real point to excommunication is to exile those who won't keep the house rules so that, once outside the house, the excommunicant will learn by experience which society, and which rules, he really wants to keep.

Or, alternatively: There's no reason to complain. If you get ex'd, don't go away mad, just go away. If you want back in the clubhouse, submit to the house rules. If you don't wanna submit to the house rules, why do you want in? Start your own club, or find a more congenial society.

I'm being serious.

One might see this life as an application of this principle - we have been exiled to learn by experience which society, and which rules, we really want to keep.
Wouldn't starting your own club (in this context) mean starting your own church?

And wouldn't that be a pretty serious sin if the LDS Church is true?

log
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2077
Location: The Fireplace of Affliction

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by log »

Any society may withdraw fellowship. The Church is one society. Heaven is another. The Royal Order of the Moose is yet another. LDSFF is yet another. And so on and so forth. I'm speaking on a general principle.

User avatar
WarMonger
captain of 100
Posts: 794
Location: Australia

Re: Excommunicate Them All and Let God Sort 'Em Out

Post by WarMonger »

Original_Intent wrote:Excommunication is a two-edged sword that I think more often cuts the wielder than the target.
All sin is selfishness, and also addictive, when we sin we hurt those around us. Same would go for excommunication.

Post Reply