Denver Snuffer blogpost: "Things Now Under Way"

[AI2.0]

During his last lecture, Denver Snuffer essentially made the claim that the Lord had wrested the keys from the LDS church apostles and Presidency and he now holds them. Since then he has not been as active in blogging, but he has posted recently: 'Things Now Underway'.

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/

Some excerpts from his blog post:

For the first time since Joseph and Hyrum died, there is actual progress now being made

His position is clear; He believes the church fell into apostasy at the death of Joseph Smith

The first is remembering the restoration and reclaiming its truths, ordinances and vitality. This began in earnest with the final talk given in Phoenix on September 9, 2014. Since then, hundreds have gone through the simple but necessary process to reclaim authority and obtain the now required sustaining vote to exercise that authority with God's approval.

While some question the importance of 'keys', Denver acknowledged the importance of keys when he stated that the LDS apostles and presidency lost the keys when they upheld his excommunication. For whatever reason, Denver does act as one who now has authority he believes was granted to him by Christ in April 2014.

Fellowship groups are collecting tithing and using it to assist the poor among them, and when their group's needs are met they support others who are in need. I have received wonderful accounts of how local groups are organizing themselves.

Denver is calling his non-church, 'fellowship groups' and they are collecting tithing-notice he calls it 'tithing' and not simply charitable offerings--it's a church. Since they are collecting tithing only in the form of cash, there will be no need to involve the IRS and have to form a church 'corporation', which to many of his adherents is a dirty word.

In response hundreds now have authority and several thousand have returned to the root of the restoration. These will survive the Lord's return, because their authorized and authoritative baptism is the sign now accepted by God as proof of faith by obedience.

While he'll claim the authority is from God, Denver Snuffer is the one who authorized them and taught them what he says is the proper mode of baptism. Denver is the one these several thousand have heeded--they follow his counsel and while they reject the idea of 'following a man' etc., they simply cannot get away from it. They are following his guidance, they are following him. This is the logical conclusion.

This vital new growth from a dead root is a sign heaven told us to watch for in the last days.

Here he calls the LDS church a 'dead root'. So, like the Jews of old, Denver is rejecting the 'stone' on which his organization was founded. He has developed his faith, using the teachings he learned in the LDS church--but admits that it grew from a 'dead root'. I'm still trying to understand how he can claim to be different from every other dissident break off from the church--by now there have to be 1,000's which sprung from the CofJCofLDS.

In the same January 1841 revelation reminding the church it had forfeited the "fulness of the priesthood" (D&C 124:28), the Lord confirmed upon Hyrum "the office of Priesthood and Patriarch" (D&C 124:91). In Hyrum, like the prophets of old, God gave us a "prophet, and a seer, and a revelator unto [God's] church" (D&C 124:94). Hyrum was a man who could "bind on earth, bind in heaven, loose on earth, and loose in heaven" (D&C 124:93). He was the means to preserve the restoration, had he lived. By June 1844, it appears to me only Joseph and Hyrum were equal to fulfilling the Lord's requirements.

Christopher Nemelka claims to be a prophet, he has a translation he calls 'the sealed portion' and claims to be Hyrum Smith reincarnated. Maybe he could lead Denver's fellowship. Maybe he's the one 'mighty and strong' so many disillusioned with the LDS church are looking for. Christopher would certainly like what Denver wrote here.

One word of caution: new things taught using the scriptures always give pretenders, ambitious and cunning men an opportunity to improve their deception. Information can be abused, and there are those who are eager to deceive to get power, popularity and financial gain. You must assume the burden of distinguishing light from darkness, truth from error, and pretenders from those sent by the Lord with counsel from Him. Trust no man. Go to God and ask Him about everyone who teaches and everything taught.

He's right about this. When you have a belief system which preaches that everyone should be receiving revelation and should not listen to others, but only to the spirit, you are bound to have some try to take control and gain followers to themselves. Denver thinks he can have a loosely based 'fellowship' but I predict, this is impossible. If he does not set up some kind of hierarchy or control over his fellowships, it some will most certainly move in and take control and his group will be fractured from within. That is human nature which he cannot control.


Denver is being forthright in what he is requesting of his followers:

The first process of fellowshipping in local groups today is saving souls. It is a required first step, and therefore anyone who claims to have faith in Christ must now come and receive their baptism as a sign of faith in Christ through this required manner. Even if the recipient chooses to continue activity in the LDS Church, or any other church or group, all people of faith must receive the baptism now being offered.

He's saying that if you believe what he preaches, you are required to take the first step and 'join' his fellowship through baptism in the manner he has authorized and approved. How is this not joining Denver Snuffer's 'church', regardless whether it is a legal corporation or not? And, while he tells you it is fine to continue to attend another church, I'm sure he is aware that being baptized at his behest and by his authority is grounds for excommunication from the LDS faith.

Because of the progression of his teachings, this is no longer about a man who writes books and teaches people his views on how they can receive the second comforter--this is a fundamental shift in religious belief and affiliation.



What I'd like to understand is, given the things he has written above and what he is asking his followers to do, how can LDS members who believe in his teachings, continue to affiliate and participate in the LDS church, a 'dead root'? If I am wrong, or misunderstanding him, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

[marc]

An interesting conundrum. But I am reminded of the story of the priest Eli who granted Hannah her desire because of her faith, in spite of the wicked, apostate Eli. I still attend church and fellowship there because my faith is still alive in the ordinances I have partaken in and the ordinances (sacrament) in which I still partake of. My calling thus far is to be like leaven in my ward, in the hopes that others will see and rise. But this is my unique place in life.

[AI2.0]

I'm not sure I would go so far as call Eli a wicked apostate, a overindulgent, enabling parent maybe. His problem was that he had two sons who were wicked and unworthy of office and he would not remove them from service, when he knew he should--later it cost them their lives and he died having to witness the consequences of his refusal to act in courage. I believe that later Samuel struggled with the same thing--his sons did not live up to their calling as well and it hurt him in the eyes of the people.

Coachmarc, I'm glad that you still believe in the ordinances but I'm assuming that is because you don't quite believe in what Denver says about the church. Am I right? Are you a bit on the fence?

[deep water]

Coachmarc; Your response is the best response, and the most logical response there is. Changing your building of warship will have but little effect upon ones rising up. Changing ones choice of drink makes little difference. It is wholly dependent upon ones desires that makes the deference. Loving the lord thy God and doing his commandments, because of your love for him. All the while forsaking the things of the world, is the true path and will bear fruit in the end. I have so much respect for you, Thank you for being such a good example.

[AI2.0]

Coachmarc; Your response is the best response, and the most logical response there is. Changing your building of warship will have but little effect upon ones rising up. Changing ones choice of drink makes little difference. It is wholly dependent upon ones desires that makes the deference. Loving the lord thy God and doing his commandments, because of your love for him. All the while forsaking the things of the world, is the true path and will bear fruit in the end. I have so much respect for you, Thank you for being such a good example.

Could you explain further what you mean by, "changing your building of warship will have but little effect upon ones rising up. Changing ones choice of drink makes little difference".

[Ezra]

If denver has made a new church be glad it will be cleansed. D&c 112 23-26

And almost all will be cleansed D&c 121 34-40

Just as will the lds church.

God is in control of naming his people.
Our concern should be making sure we are named his people.

[brlenox]

If denver has made a new church be glad it will be cleansed. D&c 112 23-26

I'm not sure you are giving the issue a full weight of consideration as it applies to The Church of Denver's Mice of Scatter Day Ain'ts. For the most part, my exposure has introduced me to individuals who should know better. They had sufficient testimonies and knowledge. They manifest traits consistant with those that once knew and rebelled against the church and they entered into the road to apostasy and became condemnatory without evidence or cause for condemnation.

To be cleansed would imply some vestige of authority and order which might be preserved such as we have in the LDS Church. However, when the Scatter Day comes I suspect there will be nothing left of the organization at all.

[deep water]

A12.0; You are trying to see something different through the glasses you have earned as a child. The only way to see more clearly is to be given a different set of glasses by Christ. Once the beam has been removed from ones eyes, by Christ, one can see quit clearly. And seeing clearly, understand more fully. Christ has told us that to pour new wine into old glasses will only explode the old glasses. JS said it a little different when he said "every time I try to teach something new, the people fly to pieces like glass." If you never become new, renewed, you will never understand.

[AI2.0]

If denver has made a new church be glad it will be cleansed. D&c 112 23-26

I'm not sure you are giving the issue a full weight of consideration as it applies to The Church of Denver's Mice of Scatter Day Ain'ts. For the most part, my exposure has introduced me to individuals who should know better. They had sufficient testimonies and knowledge. They manifest traits consistant with those that once knew and rebelled against the church and they entered into the road to apostasy and became condemnatory without evidence or cause for condemnation.

I think you are right about the people who find his message appealing. I think his message resonates with some LDS members who already feel alienated or resentful of church leaders; they may feel frustrated by the requirements of being a faithful latter day saint or disillusioned by their own personal trials. His movement validates their beliefs that church leaders have no special authority to offer counsel and therefore they are justified in ignoring spiritual counsel. I think this is the motivation behind claiming that it is 'following the arm of flesh' to heed the Lord's servants, which is just so "Non-LDS" a way of thinking, I don't know what to make of it.

To be cleansed would imply some vestige of authority and order which might be preserved such as we have in the LDS Church. However, when the Scatter Day comes I suspect there will be nothing left of the organization at all.

Very likely. Denver Snuffer is setting up a religious system lacking a leadership structure which will leave a vacuum, and human nature being what it is, the natural course of events is for men or women to try and fill that vacuum. If you notice, it is already being 'filled' by some and this will continue. Also, with the members of his group, all refusing to trust others; only their own 'revelation', then the groups are bound to have differences and problems. Unless Denver Snuffer or another person takes control, I do not expect his fellowships to last very long.

[AI2.0]

A12.0; You are trying to see something different through the glasses you have earned as a child. The only way to see more clearly is to be given a different set of glasses by Christ. Once the beam has been removed from ones eyes, by Christ, one can see quit clearly. And seeing clearly, understand more fully. Christ has told us that to pour new wine into old glasses will only explode the old glasses. JS said it a little different when he said "every time I try to teach something new, the people fly to pieces like glass." If you never become new, renewed, you will never understand.

First, you did not answer my question, but I'll still respond to your post.


I think I have a pretty good handle on what my faith entails. The problem here is that some, including you, seem to have rejected it in favor of a 'deeper' more complex doctrine which in some areas, actually contradicts long held beliefs. Joseph Smith was authorized to offer new doctrine, I believe Brigham Young, on down to Thomas Monson are authorized also to impart new teachings and run the church as they feel inspired to do so.
And I would agree there are some people on this board who 'fly to pieces', often complaining about the church and what it is doing and how the leadership are running it. I personally don't have a problem with the things they have taught or changed, but I sure hear a lot of people on this board complaining about things--changes to temple ceremonies, how tithing is spent, how missionary work is done, how lessons are taught. I guess you could say there are a lot of people who 'fly to pieces like glass' when they don't like something new that comes from the Lord's mouthpiece, the Prophet of the LDS church.

[Ezra]

J Ruben Clark didn't attend church for almost 2 year prior to being called a counselor in the first presidency. And for the 25 years prior he had very low church attendance.

when the call came and he asked why he was being called this was the reply by President Grant.

“You were chosen because the Constitution of the United States is in jeopardy. The church needs to be aroused, the country needs to be aroused, and we’ve got to start training our people to defend that Constitution before it’s shredded and lost.”

To me this says that the lord is more interested in the heart and knowledge of a man then where he spends his Sunday's.
J Ruben Clark was a man of God. He was a man of God because he understood the constitution God created and how to implement it in his life to be on gods side.

You can spend you entire life going to church every Sunday going to the temple every week and not be gods people.

D&c 76:75

Joseph smith vision of the 3 kingdoms and who will posses them. Speaking of the terrestrial he said.
75 these are thy who were honorable men of this earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

That's all it takes for good honorable men and women to not be gods people. The craftiness of men saying vote for bush vote for Obama vote for the lesser of 2 evils.vote for the the lesser socialists. Those chains don't bind as much as the other chains do.

They don't know the constitution or its God given principles. They don't know God or his will. They unknowingly chain and put there fellow men into bondage and use unrightous dominion.

It's not where they go on Sunday. It's what they do to stop the spread of the socialisem and ideals of satan.

[marc]

I'm not sure I would go so far as call Eli a wicked apostate, a overindulgent, enabling parent maybe. His problem was that he had two sons who were wicked and unworthy of office and he would not remove them from service, when he knew he should--later it cost them their lives and he died having to witness the consequences of his refusal to act in courage. I believe that later Samuel struggled with the same thing--his sons did not live up to their calling as well and it hurt him in the eyes of the people.

Coachmarc, I'm glad that you still believe in the ordinances but I'm assuming that is because you don't quite believe in what Denver says about the church. Am I right? Are you a bit on the fence?

Read 1 Samuel chapters 1 through 4. Eli was the High Priest and he raised despicable children, who were ultimately slain by God. Eli would be replaced by Samuel on the same day that his two sons are slain in battle, the Ark was lost to the Philistines, his daughter who was pregnant miscarried his grandchild. On that same day he, Eli, fell over backwards, and fractured his skull and died. The whole family wrapped up in a Holocaust of death, on the same day. This was Eli. He is often called the wicked priest Eli.

Hannah went up to the Tabernacle, and Hannah in faith was praying at the Tabernacle. And to give you an idea of the lowly state of the Tabernacle in that day, drunkenness was so common place there that when Eli saw her praying, her lips were moving but there were no words coming out, he assumed she was like the rest of them. She was just another drunk. He was a little upset at the drunken woman at the Tabernacle and so he complained to her. Eli in verse 14 of 1 Samuel ch. 1 said: "And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee." And Hannah says, No I'm not. I've come here to pray. In verse 17, Eli answered and said, "Go in peace and the God of Israel grant thee thy petition that thou hast asked of him."

A faithless, wicked, insubordinate priest who will be slain by the hand of God with his sons and his grandson, on this day is enabled by the worthiness of Hannah, to give to Hannah through her faith a blessing from God. This is a true principle. It is the worthiness of the recipient that drives blessings. Nothing is withheld from those with faith. Even a wicked High Priest can confer a blessing upon the worthy. This is because in the ordinances the power of God is manifest.

As for me being on a fence, I am on a path-my path. I go where the Lord takes me. I have experienced things, felt things and seen things. And this is because the Lord baptized me with fire and with the Holy Ghost almost three years ago. I have taken the Holy Spirit for my guide as Nephi has exhorted. I have also experienced the Lord withdrawing His Spirit, leaving me to feel dead and empty. And while I tread cautiously, nothing in this world is worth being spiritually dead. I follow the Light. And I will continue to do so even if it means sacrificing everything that I hold dear, difficult as it may be.

[Ezra]

Coach do you agree with me on the constitution?

[boo]

During his last lecture, Denver Snuffer essentially made the claim that the Lord had wrested the keys from the LDS church apostles and Presidency and he now holds them. Since then he has not been as active in blogging, but he has posted recently: 'Things Now Underway'.

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/

Some excerpts from his blog post:

For the first time since Joseph and Hyrum died, there is actual progress now being made

His position is clear; He believes the church fell into apostasy at the death of Joseph Smith

The first is remembering the restoration and reclaiming its truths, ordinances and vitality. This began in earnest with the final talk given in Phoenix on September 9, 2014. Since then, hundreds have gone through the simple but necessary process to reclaim authority and obtain the now required sustaining vote to exercise that authority with God's approval.

While some question the importance of 'keys', Denver acknowledged the importance of keys when he stated that the LDS apostles and presidency lost the keys when they upheld his excommunication. For whatever reason, Denver does act as one who now has authority he believes was granted to him by Christ in April 2014.

Fellowship groups are collecting tithing and using it to assist the poor among them, and when their group's needs are met they support others who are in need. I have received wonderful accounts of how local groups are organizing themselves.

Denver is calling his non-church, 'fellowship groups' and they are collecting tithing-notice he calls it 'tithing' and not simply charitable offerings--it's a church. Since they are collecting tithing only in the form of cash, there will be no need to involve the IRS and have to form a church 'corporation', which to many of his adherents is a dirty word.

In response hundreds now have authority and several thousand have returned to the root of the restoration. These will survive the Lord's return, because their authorized and authoritative baptism is the sign now accepted by God as proof of faith by obedience.

While he'll claim the authority is from God, Denver Snuffer is the one who authorized them and taught them what he says is the proper mode of baptism. Denver is the one these several thousand have heeded--they follow his counsel and while they reject the idea of 'following a man' etc., they simply cannot get away from it. They are following his guidance, they are following him. This is the logical conclusion.

This vital new growth from a dead root is a sign heaven told us to watch for in the last days.

Here he calls the LDS church a 'dead root'. So, like the Jews of old, Denver is rejecting the 'stone' on which his organization was founded. He has developed his faith, using the teachings he learned in the LDS church--but admits that it grew from a 'dead root'. I'm still trying to understand how he can claim to be different from every other dissident break off from the church--by now there have to be 1,000's which sprung from the CofJCofLDS.

In the same January 1841 revelation reminding the church it had forfeited the "fulness of the priesthood" (D&C 124:28), the Lord confirmed upon Hyrum "the office of Priesthood and Patriarch" (D&C 124:91). In Hyrum, like the prophets of old, God gave us a "prophet, and a seer, and a revelator unto [God's] church" (D&C 124:94). Hyrum was a man who could "bind on earth, bind in heaven, loose on earth, and loose in heaven" (D&C 124:93). He was the means to preserve the restoration, had he lived. By June 1844, it appears to me only Joseph and Hyrum were equal to fulfilling the Lord's requirements.

Christopher Nemelka claims to be a prophet, he has a translation he calls 'the sealed portion' and claims to be Hyrum Smith reincarnated. Maybe he could lead Denver's fellowship. Maybe he's the one 'mighty and strong' so many disillusioned with the LDS church are looking for. Christopher would certainly like what Denver wrote here.

One word of caution: new things taught using the scriptures always give pretenders, ambitious and cunning men an opportunity to improve their deception. Information can be abused, and there are those who are eager to deceive to get power, popularity and financial gain. You must assume the burden of distinguishing light from darkness, truth from error, and pretenders from those sent by the Lord with counsel from Him. Trust no man. Go to God and ask Him about everyone who teaches and everything taught.

He's right about this. When you have a belief system which preaches that everyone should be receiving revelation and should not listen to others, but only to the spirit, you are bound to have some try to take control and gain followers to themselves. Denver thinks he can have a loosely based 'fellowship' but I predict, this is impossible. If he does not set up some kind of hierarchy or control over his fellowships, it some will most certainly move in and take control and his group will be fractured from within. That is human nature which he cannot control.


Denver is being forthright in what he is requesting of his followers:

The first process of fellowshipping in local groups today is saving souls. It is a required first step, and therefore anyone who claims to have faith in Christ must now come and receive their baptism as a sign of faith in Christ through this required manner. Even if the recipient chooses to continue activity in the LDS Church, or any other church or group, all people of faith must receive the baptism now being offered.

He's saying that if you believe what he preaches, you are required to take the first step and 'join' his fellowship through baptism in the manner he has authorized and approved. How is this not joining Denver Snuffer's 'church', regardless whether it is a legal corporation or not? And, while he tells you it is fine to continue to attend another church, I'm sure he is aware that being baptized at his behest and by his authority is grounds for excommunication from the LDS faith.

Because of the progression of his teachings, this is no longer about a man who writes books and teaches people his views on how they can receive the second comforter--this is a fundamental shift in religious belief and affiliation.



What I'd like to understand is, given the things he has written above and what he is asking his followers to do, how can LDS members who believe in his teachings, continue to affiliate and participate in the LDS church, a 'dead root'? If I am wrong, or misunderstanding him, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

I continue to attend and serve because I can. I can serve and minister to my brothers and sisters in Christ. If I don't give my bunch of 11 year olds a good scouting experience and take them snow camping who will ? In my particular ward the answer unfortunately is nobody. I know that because the bishop has told me so. If I stop visiting my widows and single mothers whom i home teach who will?. No one . I know because when I was the HP Group leader I couldn't get anyone to regularly visit and actually become involved in the lives of the teenage boys who needed someone to teach them how to drive a car or learn to really work hard. So I assigned myself. If I stop bearing my testimony of the fact we can and should be receiving revelation including the visitation of angels who will ? Absolutely no one ( and no neither the bishop or SP has asked me to stop). If I attend and am involved I can teach the truth as I am instructed by the Spirit and permitted by those who preside to do so..I can also serve in the temple where periodically I have very rewarding experiences. I don't view this issue as necessarily a binary one although you apparently do. I can recognize the fallibility of men and the falsehoods that are all too often taught, our collective failure to perform the ordinances as the Savior has commanded, and the lack of formal authority and revelation and still find being there is at least occasionally a worthwhile experience .I don't believe that the Catholic church has all truth either but look forward to feeding the homeless at one of the local catholic charities as my wife and I do regularly. Despite the institutions short comings I am encouraging my son to go on a mission because the the church still teaches the fullness of the gospel of Christ and we have a responsibility to teach it . If I could go on a proselyting mission I would as would my RM wife and RM older son. I believe that Denver is a true messenger and plan on being baptized at the appropriate time. The day may come when I will probably be kicked out but in the meantime I will do my beat to mourn with those who mourn and lift up the arms that hang down and preach Christ and him crucified. I recognize others have come to different conclusions and that is as it should be but until the Spirit directs otherwise I will continue to serve where I can and rejoice that I live in this day when marvelous things are happening

[marc]

Coach do you agree with me on the constitution?

Can you be more specific?

[Ezra]

Read previous post on j Ruben Clark

[AI2.0]

J Ruben Clark didn't attend church for almost 2 year prior to being called a counselor in the first presidency. And for the 25 years prior he had very low church attendance.

when the call came and he asked why he was being called this was the reply by President Grant.

“You were chosen because the Constitution of the United States is in jeopardy. The church needs to be aroused, the country needs to be aroused, and we’ve got to start training our people to defend that Constitution before it’s shredded and lost.”

To me this says that the lord is more interested in the heart and knowledge of a man then where he spends his Sunday's.
J Ruben Clark was a man of God. He was a man of God because he understood the constitution God created and how to implement it in his life to be on gods side.

You can spend you entire life going to church every Sunday going to the temple every week and not be gods people.

I suppose that was the best Pres. Grant could hope for at the time, but these days I think we can find committed, spiritual members who attend church regularly AND have the ability and qualifications needed for whatever the job, such as defending the Constitution. I don't think we need to settle as maybe was expedient in earlier times.

[AI2.0]

I'm not sure I would go so far as call Eli a wicked apostate, a overindulgent, enabling parent maybe. His problem was that he had two sons who were wicked and unworthy of office and he would not remove them from service, when he knew he should--later it cost them their lives and he died having to witness the consequences of his refusal to act in courage. I believe that later Samuel struggled with the same thing--his sons did not live up to their calling as well and it hurt him in the eyes of the people.

Coachmarc, I'm glad that you still believe in the ordinances but I'm assuming that is because you don't quite believe in what Denver says about the church. Am I right? Are you a bit on the fence?

Read 1 Samuel chapters 1 through 4. Eli was the High Priest and he raised despicable children, who were ultimately slain by God. Eli would be replaced by Samuel on the same day that his two sons are slain in battle, the Ark was lost to the Philistines, his daughter who was pregnant miscarried his grandchild. On that same day he, Eli, fell over backwards, and fractured his skull and died. The whole family wrapped up in a Holocaust of death, on the same day. This was Eli. He is often called the wicked priest Eli.

Hannah went up to the Tabernacle, and Hannah in faith was praying at the Tabernacle. And to give you an idea of the lowly state of the Tabernacle in that day, drunkenness was so common place there that when Eli saw her praying, her lips were moving but there were no words coming out, he assumed she was like the rest of them. She was just another drunk. He was a little upset at the drunken woman at the Tabernacle and so he complained to her. Eli in verse 14 of 1 Samuel ch. 1 said: "And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee." And Hannah says, No I'm not. I've come here to pray. In verse 17, Eli answered and said, "Go in peace and the God of Israel grant thee thy petition that thou hast asked of him."

A faithless, wicked, insubordinate priest who will be slain by the hand of God with his sons and his grandson, on this day is enabled by the worthiness of Hannah, to give to Hannah through her faith a blessing from God. This is a true principle. It is the worthiness of the recipient that drives blessings. Nothing is withheld from those with faith. Even a wicked High Priest can confer a blessing upon the worthy. This is because in the ordinances the power of God is manifest.

As for me being on a fence, I am on a path-my path. I go where the Lord takes me. I have experienced things, felt things and seen things. And this is because the Lord baptized me with fire and with the Holy Ghost almost three years ago. I have taken the Holy Spirit for my guide as Nephi has exhorted. I have also experienced the Lord withdrawing His Spirit, leaving me to feel dead and empty. And while I tread cautiously, nothing in this world is worth being spiritually dead. I follow the Light. And I will continue to do so even if it means sacrificing everything that I hold dear, difficult as it may be.

I do know the story, but thank you for the refresher. However, your interpretation of the story is a bit more harsh and condemning than how I see it. While the recorders of events in the Old Testament might have interpreted it as god slaying everyone for rampant wickedness, I perceive it more as the natural consequences that came from disobedience and poor choices.

You think you are different than the rest of us? That since we don't talk about being 'baptized by fire' as a single act that we don't know what it means to be redeemed by the blood of Christ? I and others, I'm sure, have also taken the Holy Ghost as our guide but we also believe that we need to be prayerfully follow the counsel of the Lord's servants, read the scriptures regularly, pray and live the commandments to be able to find the true path we should follow and most importantly, to avoid being deceived by the false spirits which are rampant in these last days.

[marc]

Read previous post on j Ruben Clark

I believe in the constitution. I believe what the Lord said about it in D&C 98. Furthermore, I believe it is supposed to be a means to an end. It is there so that we can have the freedom to labor to establish Zion. The problem is way too many Mormons love Babylon. The constitution is the means, Zion is the end of that means.

[AI2.0]

I continue to attend and serve because I can. I can serve and minister to my brothers and sisters in Christ. If I don't give my bunch of 11 year olds a good scouting experience and take them snow camping who will ? In my particular ward the answer unfortunately is nobody. I know that because the bishop has told me so. If I stop visiting my widows and single mothers whom i home teach who will?. No one . I know because when I was the HP Group leader I couldn't get anyone to regularly visit and actually become involved in the lives of the teenage boys who needed someone to teach them how to drive a car or learn to really work hard. So I assigned myself. If I stop bearing my testimony of the fact we can and should be receiving revelation including the visitation of angels who will ? Absolutely no one ( and no neither the bishop or SP has asked me to stop). If I attend and am involved I can teach the truth as I am instructed by the Spirit and permitted by those who preside to do so..I can also serve in the temple where periodically I have very rewarding experiences. I don't view this issue as necessarily a binary one although you apparently do. I can recognize the fallibility of men and the falsehoods that are all too often taught, our collective failure to perform the ordinances as the Savior has commanded, and the lack of formal authority and revelation and still find being there is at least occasionally a worthwhile experience .I don't believe that the Catholic church has all truth either but look forward to feeding the homeless at one of the local catholic charities as my wife and I do regularly. Despite the institutions short comings I am encouraging my son to go on a mission because the the church still teaches the fullness of the gospel of Christ and we have a responsibility to teach it . If I could go on a proselyting mission I would as would my RM wife and RM older son. I believe that Denver is a true messenger and plan on being baptized at the appropriate time. The day may come when I will probably be kicked out but in the meantime I will do my beat to mourn with those who mourn and lift up the arms that hang down and preach Christ and him crucified. I recognize others have come to different conclusions and that is as it should be but until the Spirit directs otherwise I will continue to serve where I can and rejoice that I live in this day when marvelous things are happening

Bless you for your service, I'm sure there are many who've been blessed by your selflessness.
I hope you will hold off on being baptized at Denver's behest, at least until you are absolutely certain that is what you want to do--maybe give it more time to see the fruits of Denver's ministry and teachings. I feel that being baptized by his authority is a line that when crossed means there is no turning back from the consequences of the choice and what it will bring into your life and the lives of your loved ones and those you've served for so many years.

[marc]

I do know the story, but thank you for the refresher. However, your interpretation of the story is a bit more harsh and condemning than how I see it. While the recorders of events in the Old Testament might have interpreted it as god slaying everyone for rampant wickedness, I perceive it more as the natural consequences that came from disobedience and poor choices.

Various version of the Bible are just as harsh as my own interpretation. Eli's sons were the "sons of Belial." "They knew not the Lord." "Eli's sons were wicked men." "Eli's sons, [Hophni and Phinehas,] were good-for-nothing priests; they had no faith in the LORD." "Now the sons of Eli were worthless men."

These priests were unprofitable servants. What good is a branch that brings forth no fruit? What good is a branch that brings forth evil fruit? What good is a barren branch? It is good for nothing but to be bundled up and burned. But the Lord is compassionate to the tree. He breaks off branches that may yet yield good fruit. He scatters and plants them around the vineyard. He grafts them back in hoping for good fruit. Adam and Eve were commanded to be fruitful. But what is the point of yielding fruit that is good for nothing but to be cast out?

You think you are different than the rest of us? That since we don't talk about being 'baptized by fire' as a single act that we don't know what it means to be redeemed by the blood of Christ? I and others, I'm sure, have also taken the Holy Ghost as our guide but we also believe that we need to be prayerfully follow the counsel of the Lord's servants, read the scriptures regularly, pray and live the commandments to be able to find the true path we should follow and most importantly, to avoid being deceived by the false spirits which are rampant in these last days.

I'm just answering your questions. I'm offering you my own perspective. I'm sharing with you where I'm coming from since you addressed me. I don't consider myself better or different than anybody. I am a sinner. I am dust. I am a fallen and wicked man living in a Telestial world. I am happy for you that you have also taken the Holy Ghost for your guide. I rejoice in it. I don't feel anything other than joy for you. I would hope that you feel the same for me.

[Bee Prepared]

BEWARE OF PRIDE

" Pride is essentially competitive in nature. We pit our will against God's. When we direct our pride toward God, it is in the spirit of "my will and not thine be done." As Paul said, they "seek their own,not the things which are Jesus Christ's." (Philippians 2:21.)

The proud cannot accept the authority of God giving direction to their lives. (See Helaman 12:6.) They pit their perceptions of truth against God's great knowledge, their abilities verses God's priesthood power, their accomplishments against his mighty works.

Our enmity toward God takes on many labels, such as rebellion, hard-heartedness,stiff-neckedness, unrepentant, puffed up, easily offended, and sign seekers.The proud wish God would agree with them. They aren't interested in changing their opinions to agree with God's. Another major portion of this very prevalent sin of pride is enmity toward our fellowmen. We are tempted daily to elevate ourselves above others and diminish them. (See Helaman 6:17; D&C 58:41.)

When pride has a hold on our hearts we lose our independence of the world and deliver our freedoms to the bondage of men's judgment. The world shouts louder than the whisperings of the Holy Ghost. The reasoning of men overrides the revelations of God, and the proud let go of the iron rod. (See 1 Nephi 8:19-28;11:25;15:23-24.)

Pride results in secret combinations which are built up to get power,gain, and glory of the world. (See Helaman 7:5; Ether 8:9,16,22-23; Moses5:31.) This fruit of the sin of pride, namely secret combinations, brought down both the Jaredite and the Nephite civilizations and has been and will yet be the cause of the fall of many nations. (See Ether 8:18-25.)

The proud do not receive counsel or correction easily. (See Proverbs15:10; Amos 5:10.) Defensiveness is used by them to justify and rationalize their frailties and failures. (See Matthew 3:9; John 6:30-59.)

Pride affects all of us at various times and in various degrees. Now you can see why the building in Lehi's dream that represents the pride of the world was large and spacious and great was the multitude that did enter into it. (See 1 Nephi 8:26,33; 11:35-36.)

Pride is the great stumbling block to Zion. I repeat: Pride *is* the great stumbling block to Zion".

by President Ezra Taft Benson

[marc]

Good point. After almost two thousand years, we are still not Zion. Says something about us covenant people.

[Waiting]

AI, you sound like you're trying to be fair and open-minded, which is commendable.

I think everyone, on both sides of this issue, agrees that we should heed the counsel of prophets. I think everyone, on both sides of this issue, agrees that we should follow the voice of the Spirit. However, we all tend to use the terms "heed" and "follow" too loosely, and this creates unnecessary arguments. Consider these definitions:

heed - carefully listen, then ponder and pray for confirmation

follow - strictly obey and put your absolute trust in

Now re-read what you wrote here:

Denver is the one these several thousand have heeded--they follow his counsel and while they reject the idea of 'following a man' etc., they simply cannot get away from it. They are following his guidance, they are following him. This is the logical conclusion.

Do you see how you used the word "heeded" as a synonym with "follow"? These two words are understood very differently by those you're addressing, so be absolutely precise when you use them.

Imagine you'd said this instead:

They heed Denver's counsel. They carefully listen to it, then ponder and pray for confirmation. They decide to get baptized only once they believe they've received guidance from the Spirit that this is what God wants them to do.

Now, maybe you believe they got that answer by listening to false spirits. But at least you've stated the other sides' point of view correctly, in language both you and they understand the same way.

[Waiting]

He's right about this. When you have a belief system which preaches that everyone should be receiving revelation and should not listen to others, but only to the spirit, you are bound to have some try to take control and gain followers to themselves. Denver thinks he can have a loosely based 'fellowship' but I predict, this is impossible. If he does not set up some kind of hierarchy or control over his fellowships, it some will most certainly move in and take control and his group will be fractured from within. That is human nature which he cannot control.

I think you're right. There will be those who try to take control and gain followers, and I'd expect them to have a certain level of success. The question is, will the movement be completely compromised by this? Will the movement be fractured enough that it just falls apart? Or will there be a core of believers who absolutely refuse to prioritize the voice of any external authority (including Denver) over the still small voice within? Is it possible for a larger body of believers to connect directly to God, so that strict hierarchy and external control is no longer expedient? Would that necessarily result in confusion and chaos, due to human nature? Or is it really possible for humans to be sufficiently in tune with the mind of God (the Holy Spirit) so that each plays a harmonious part of the whole?