Jacob 2 and 3 - Polygamy: Yeah or Nay

[ajax]

In light of Jacob 2 and 3, does Jacob 2:30 allow for polygamy?
http://gregstocks.wordpress.com/2014/09 ... of-mormon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Rose Garden]

Where is the option for "I don't know"?

[rewcox]

In light of Jacob 2 and 3, does Jacob 2:30 allow for polygamy?
http://gregstocks.wordpress.com/2014/09 ... of-mormon/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Abraham does. Moses does. Joseph Smith did it. Jacob 2, is when God allows it.

We don't have to worry about it. Fortunate for us.

[jbalm]

Nay.

[minorityofone]

Abraham did it (and sinned). He was Abram (exalted father). Got demoted to Abraham (father of nations). Admitted it was sin and repented but still had to institute circumcision as a token of keeping himself clean... Paul says in the new testament hagaar was bondage. Sarai said it was a sin. No evidence Isaac ever practiced it. Jacob was followed by the curse and got tricked into marrying leah and then fell into the sin.
Moses never practiced polygamy, (Ask God) The Ethiopian woman was Zipporah.
Jacob 2 clearly teaches that david and solomon sinned in plural marriage and it was an abomination. Section 132 said they were justified. Clear and undeniable contradiction. Who to believe? Jacob 2 is stating that God raises up seed by those who follow His Word and commandments. Polygamy is and always was an abomination. Doesn't condemn someone but it sure inhibits growth. The curse warned about in Jacob 2 is upon the LDS church. I know it.

[Desert Roses]

Where's the option for yeah sometimes and nay sometimes? I think the scriptures overall are pretty clear. If we accept only Jacob's words for his people, how then can we accept other prophets who had multiple wives? If they were in sin for doing so, the Holy Ghost would have left them and they could not have been acceptable before God. From my reading, David and Solomon's sin (note he did not mention Abraham or Jacob!) was that they continued to seek and take wives and concubines without the approval of God, and for personal greed or political gain rather than because they were commanded of God. It is "whoredoms" that the Lord despises, or the using of those sacred gifts for gain rather than the blessings they bring within a covenant marriage. On the other hand, if we believe as some do that ONLY those with multiple wives are acceptable to God and achieve the highest degree of glory, we eliminate Adam, Noah, Joseph of Egypt, Isaiah, Lehi...just to name a few, and even Jacob Nephi's brother all from Celestial Exaltation. It is clear that neither multiple wives or only one wife is the rule ALL the time. Each situation has been commanded in various situations and times. Only the Lord knows the why and wherefore of these commands.

[Rose Garden]

I'm not a big fan of polygamy myself, but if God can command Nephi to kill or the Israelites to go in and wipe out every man, woman, and child in a nation, I don't see why he couldn't have commanded others to live polygamy. I especially struggle with the idea of it being a sin for Abraham to have done it. I mean, he was commanded to kill his own son. Why not polygamy as well?

[ajax]

The question is, what is the correct interpretation of Jacob 2:30? Nothing else.

[jbalm]

The question is, what is the correct interpretation of Jacob 2:30? Nothing else.

It's as clear as mud. Which some want to interpret as cancelling out all the unequivocal stuff that precedes it.

[minorityofone]

God promised Abram a son. Abram and Sarai were getting old and Abram started wondering if he needed to do something himself (and Sarai) to fulfill the promise. They lost faith that God could do His own work and fulfill the promise and they came up with the bright idea to use Hagaar as a proxy. Again read the Bible nowhere does it ever even sound like God commanded it and to the contrary Sarai said it was a sin! They laughed when they learned that Sarah would have a baby at 90! How stupid they were to doubt God's word! This is why Abraham sent Ishmael and Hagaar away he was trying to repent.
Then after he had repented and come back into the good grace of God, as we all can and must, God saw fit to prove Abrahams faith. Defying all logic, God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in whom rested the promises of the birthright and chosen seed that God had promised. Abraham had learned the hard way that God can fulfill His words despite all of the wisdom of men and all of our rationalization and worldly knowledge. Like the Bible says Abraham had learned that God could fulfill His word even if it meant raising Isaac up after death. Abraham would have never had to go through that test if he had not sinned in polygamy. Again I know this. The Holy Ghost has told this to me because I have asked all of these questions after learning that polygamy was never commanded to Joseph Smith.

Jacob 2:30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me. (Those who accept the atonement and God are his seed as Abinidi clearly taught. His seed are not babies born by polygamous wives,) I will command my people, (if we want to be His people we better obey HIM and not listen to the rationalization of those who are seeking justification from David and Solomon's poor example), otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. (Otherwise, if we don't want to be God's seed, we will listen to the justifications and wisdom of men and hearken unto them and not God).

[Chip]

Jacob 2:30 says, effectively, "If I, The Lord, will raise up a righteous people unto me, I will lead them out of the mire they are currently in and carefully instruct them that they are to have one wife, only, and no concubines; otherwise, they will fall back into whoredoms.

Here is the fruit of whoredoms:

Jacob 2:

31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.

32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.

Was this not Emma's plight?

The Book of Mormon is true. I believe that D&C Section 132 was not from God, but from the devil, and I think Joseph accepted that revelation because he wanted it to be true. Brigham young might have had something to do with, as well. Just my opinion.

[Robert Sinclair]

Abraham only did what his wife asked him to do.

Jacob was given enough alcohol to make sure when the father in law switched the older sister into his tent he would not realize what had happened.

Moses gave the law from God that no king over Israel was to multiply gold nor silver nor possessions nor wives.

David and Solomon of their own freewill rejected the law and were unable to redeem Zion in their days.

Jacob 2 reviews the law of Moses as well as Abinadi later with king Noah.

Joseph Smith was warned of God if he pursued the carnal desires of his heart he would be no more protected, but delivered up unto the children of men.

Look at the date of the revelation given July 12, 1843. Look at the word Joseph uses in verse "61" of "desire" in section 132. Less than one year later Joseph fell dead at the hands of the children of men, no more protected by God as he had warned Joseph.

Good to hearken unto the voice of God. ♡ ♡

Abraham nor Jacob pursued at the first more than one wife and both paid the price of jealousy in the family where peace was hard to come by. Ismael being cast off with his mother and Joseph with the coat of many colors being sold by his brothers.

Follow the good councel given of God. ♡ ♡

The key here is "desire" as man was not to desire but for being commanded by God only. Read section 132 and see that no where does God command to take more wives. But the stumbling block of "desire" is perfectly made manifest.

Good to see and know these things of God and of men. ♡ ♡

[Rose Garden]

God promised Abram a son. Abram and Sarai were getting old and Abram started wondering if he needed to do something himself (and Sarai) to fulfill the promise. They lost faith that God could do His own work and fulfill the promise and they came up with the bright idea to use Hagaar as a proxy. Again read the Bible nowhere does it ever even sound like God commanded it and to the contrary Sarai said it was a sin! They laughed when they learned that Sarah would have a baby at 90! How stupid they were to doubt God's word! This is why Abraham sent Ishmael and Hagaar away he was trying to repent.
Then after he had repented and come back into the good grace of God, as we all can and must, God saw fit to prove Abrahams faith. Defying all logic, God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in whom rested the promises of the birthright and chosen seed that God had promised. Abraham had learned the hard way that God can fulfill His words despite all of the wisdom of men and all of our rationalization and worldly knowledge. Like the Bible says Abraham had learned that God could fulfill His word even if it meant raising Isaac up after death. Abraham would have never had to go through that test if he had not sinned in polygamy. Again I know this. The Holy Ghost has told this to me because I have asked all of these questions after learning that polygamy was never commanded to Joseph Smith.

Jacob 2:30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me. (Those who accept the atonement and God are his seed as Abinidi clearly taught. His seed are not babies born by polygamous wives,) I will command my people, (if we want to be His people we better obey HIM and not listen to the rationalization of those who are seeking justification from David and Solomon's poor example), otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. (Otherwise, if we don't want to be God's seed, we will listen to the justifications and wisdom of men and hearken unto them and not God).

I have received a different understanding from the Lord. According to my understanding, giving Hagaar to Abraham was Sarah's Abrahamic test. It was her test to see if she would be totally obedient to the Lord, even to the point of giving up her deepest desire to be the mother of Abraham's covenant child.

I accept the possibility that Joseph was never commanded to live polygamy although the Lord has not given me a witness of it. However, I think it would be foolish to discount the possibility of any righteous individual ever being commanded to live polygamy. Until we have gained a personal connection to Christ, we are given general commandments to live by. But after that, we are to obey what the Lord tells us individually and that always includes things that test us against what is generally accepted as right within our society. We must learn to obey the word of the Lord over the dictates of our society. So I believe there is room for a commandment to be given even for polygamy.

[minorityofone]

Jezebel,

I would love to hear the revelation you received about Sarai. Perhaps you did receive something and it can be reconciled to what I have received. Perhaps her Abrahamic test was to live with her mistake... The Bible account clearly said it was Sarah's idea. It never even hints at being commanded from God. The only reason the LDS people see it differently is because of section 132.
The only revelation that I trust is a burning witness from the Holy Ghost. I have learned I cannot trust peaceful feelings, profound thoughts, or anything else. Even a visitation from an angelic minister must be accompanied by the power of the Holy Ghost. It must be given to the mind and heart by the power of the Holy Ghost. Just so you have an idea of what I am claiming I have received. Often I find that other's revelations (although seemingly contradictory at first), can actually supplement what I have previously been told and further clarify. We each must live according to what we have received as individuals and I respect you no less if we disagree and appreciate you sharing.

[nvr]

I think the original blog post gives the correct perspective.
http://gregstocks.wordpress.com/2014/09 ... of-mormon/

The teachings in the Book of Mormon have always condemned the idea of multiple wives. Jacob 2, particularly verse 30 has been misinterpreted: the punctuation was even changed in the 1849 version compared to the original (go ahead - compare the current version with the punctuation in the 1830 BoM). There is no loophole for polygamy in the Book of Mormon anywhere as it was originally translated to indicate it is justified (see the blog post).

Joseph Smith himself condemned the idea of polygamy in all his firsthand recorded statements and so did Emma. She never once attested that Joseph practiced it. Joseph was, in fact, actively trying to stamp out the practice. Some of the Cochranite converts had practiced polygamy when they were first contacted by missionaries of the Church. They brought ideas of it with them when they relocated with the saints (FYI, some RLDS viewpoints mixed in to that link). The concept really bothered Joseph and he actively disciplined whoever was found practicing it.

In reality, there's a strong likelihood that the men in the church that Joseph was targeting to stop may have been involved in plotting and supporting the mob that ultimately murdered him.

This is a big tangled ball of yarn, and it is good the church is starting to try and unravel it. I think the keys have ultimately still remained with the church even if some of the early members and even leaders after Joseph had been deceived into accepting polygamy. It was taken care of pretty early on at the start of the 1900's and the church has progressed well in correcting other false doctrines along the way as well (ie. priesthood for all races, denouncing Adam-God doctrine etc.).

[onandagus]

yes vs 30 does allow room for the Lords people to practice polygamy. The original blog's interpretation of v30 is convoluted. "oth'erwise (other and wise manner/in a different manner) they shall hearken unto these things" The Lord is clearly saying that unless he commands differently they/we would be wise to follow his commandment in v27

[minorityofone]

onandagus

How is Zelph doing? : ) The interpretation I gave above uses the word "otherwise" in exactly the way you defined it. You wasted a comment.

[oneClimbs]

Questions:
1. Why do we assume that "raise up seed" means polygamy, and not just having more kids in general?
2. Do we have any example from the Biblical record where any one was specifically "commanded" to take on more than one wife?

[ajax]

Some good comments in the blog. Since the punctuation in the BoM is not sacrosanct, some have suggested re-punctuation.

I thought this was an interesting suggestion from one of the comments:

In Jacob 2:30, note the word “things” (“otherwise, they shall harken unto these things”). “Thing(s)” appears several times in the latter part of Jacob 2 and it always denotes whoredoms. Jacob 2:30 says that unless God leads his people out of the mire and instructs them properly, they will commit whoredoms. I suppose whoredoms are among the most certain things that the natural man will engage in, given the opportunity.

Here’s how you can get the point across very simply: Get the text of Jacob 2:22-35 and make the text background green for verse 25 and the first part of verse 30, up to the semicolon. Those verses go together. Then, make the text background red for all instances of the word “thing(s)” and the latter part of verse 30, after the semicolon. It all jumps out then, clear as a bell. I don’t see how any Mormon interested in the truth could mistake God’s condemnation of polygamy when they see this presentation. What you’ll find out next is that most people just blow it off, since their thinking has already been done for them. Polygamy is not over!

Try it, you may or may not like it.

Questions:
1. Why do we assume that "raise up seed" means polygamy, and not just having more kids in general? I suppose this stems from BRM's interpretation as found in the chapter heading: "Jacob condemns the unauthorized practice of plural marriage". However, LDS.org does not have that interpretation but rather: "The Lord commands that no man among the Nephites may have more than one wife." Is this what it says in the newer LDS editions?
2. Do we have any example from the Biblical record where any one was specifically "commanded" to take on more than one wife? Can't find one.

[jbalm]

"The Lord commands that no man among the Nephites may have more than one wife." Is this what it says in the newer LDS editions?

So now we get to figure out which parts of the BOM apply to us and which applied only to the Nephites?

This could be interesting.

[Grudunza]

"Joseph Smith himself condemned the idea of polygamy in all his firsthand recorded statements"

I've heard this many times, but other than the quote from about a month before he died where he says he is accused of having seven wives but can only find one (which is more of an obfuscation or misdirection than a condemnation of polygamy), I can't really find any "firsthand recorded statements." I'm not trying to be contrary, as I believe he did preach against polygamy, and I agree with ajax's interpretation of Jacob 2. But I would like to have more specific references of JS' condemnation of polygamy. CFRs?

[ajax]

The poll should be Yeah or Nay for proper rhyming effect. #-o :ymblushing:

Not changing it now.

[ajax]

"Joseph Smith himself condemned the idea of polygamy in all his firsthand recorded statements"

I've heard this many times, but other than the quote from about a month before he died where he says he is accused of having seven wives but can only find one (which is more of an obfuscation or misdirection than a condemnation of polygamy), I can't really find any "firsthand recorded statements." I'm not trying to be contrary, as I believe he did preach against polygamy, and I agree with ajax's interpretation of Jacob 2. But I would like to have more specific references of JS' condemnation of polygamy. CFRs?

*Section 101 (1835 edition) stated: "Inasmuch as this church has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy; we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband." - Later removed by polygamists.

*"Do the Mormons believe in having more wives than one?"
No, not at the same time. But they believe that if their companion dies, they have a right to marry again. - TPJS pg 119

*"Some have reported that we not only dedicated our property, but likewise our families to the Lord, and Satan taking advantage of this has transfigured it into lasciviousness, a community of wives [polygamy], which things are an abomination in the sight of God." Times and Seasons [April 1840]: 82–85

*“NOTICE

As we have lately been credibly informed, that an Elder of the Church of Jesus Christ, of Latter-day Saints, by the name of Hiram Brown, has been preaching Polygamy, and other false and corrupt doctrines, in the county of Lapeer, state of Michigan.

This is to notify him and the Church in general, that he has been cut off from the church, for his iniquity; and he is further notified to appear at the Special Conference, on the 6th of April next, to make answer to these charges.

JOSEPH SMITH,
HYRUM SMITH,
Presidents of said Church.” - Times and Seasons 5 [February 1, 1844]: 423

[Grudunza]

Thanks. My understanding of section 101, though, is that JS did not write it. But certainly it remained in the canon for several years while he lived and I don't know of any reference to him opposing it. Regardless, I don't think that can be considered a firsthand recorded statement.

[oneClimbs]

Thanks. My understanding of section 101, though, is that JS did not write it. But certainly it remained in the canon for several years while he lived and I don't know of any reference to him opposing it. Regardless, I don't think that can be considered a firsthand recorded statement.

Read "Joseph Fought Polygamy" it's online, and I know it's controversial but it has a lot of great quotes, there are more than you would think.