The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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clarkkent14
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The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by clarkkent14 »

There have been numerous debates on this forum about this doctrine. I thought it would be worthwhile for those who believe it is essential to salvation to persuade me this doctrine is true. If you are truly concerned for the salvation of my soul as well as others on this forum then don't make us feel, "persecuted by those who ought to [be our] friends and to [treat us] kindly, and if [you suppose us] to be deluded [then endeavor] in a proper and affectionate manner to [reclaim us.]" (JSH 1:28) I won't deny that both side have been passionate and I hope you can put that aside and really do your best to convince me as if I were your best friend.

Here are the stipulations. I have pondered a lot lately how all of us have inherited the church as it is now. Some have seen more changes than others, but all of us have inherited a church that had already existed for at least two generations before our time. A lot went on in that time span. So, I am limiting your references to two things. First, the standard works. They are they standard. Second, I only want references from general authorities given in the first generation of the church. 40 Years is considered a generation. I will allow 40 years after the death of Joseph Smith, so that gives you until 1884.

However, I am skeptical of quotes given 50 years after the fact recounting what Joseph taught. Why would you wait 50 years to write it down? Is that what you do? Do you wait 50 years after General Conference and then record the words, thoughts, and impressions? To me, those type of quotes are given to fit an agenda at that time they are recorded, they are then passed on as folklore, eventually quoted in conference and turned into church doctrine. If a quote says, Joseph taught," or "Joseph said," then they need to be corroborated with a contemporary source that actually proves he taught this. Otherwise ask yourself, why wasn't this recorded at the time he said it?

So persuade me. Convince me. Make your case in court. Why should I heed the doctrine "Follow the Prophet?"

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jbalm
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by jbalm »

Because the Spirit.

(Come on...we all know that this is where this thread is going.)

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Obrien
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Obrien »

ok, I didn't want to be the first @#!!$#!% to say it. I'll be second.

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Gideon
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Gideon »

First, you need to define the "doctrine". I will define it this way: Follow the counsel and direction that the Lord gives to his people through his living prophet. Before I make my case, I will say that whenever the Lord has had dealings with his children on earth he has had prophets. And, just as often as he has had prophets there have been those who have hated, mocked and killed them.

The Lord set the precedent with Joseph Smith:

4 Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;
5 For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.
6 For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.
(Doctrine and Covenants 21:4–6)


The prophet presides over the whole church, he is like Moses:

91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—
92 Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church.
(Doctrine and Covenants 107:91–92)

12 O be wise; what can I say more?
(Jacob 6:12)

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clarkkent14
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by clarkkent14 »

Gideon wrote:First, you need to define the "doctrine". I will define it this way: Follow the counsel and direction that the Lord gives to his people through his living prophet. Before I make my case, I will say that whenever the Lord has had dealings with his children on earth he has had prophets. And, just as often as he has had prophets there have been those who have hated, mocked and killed them.

The Lord set the precedent with Joseph Smith:

4 Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;
5 For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.
6 For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory.
(Doctrine and Covenants 21:4–6)

The argument can easily be made that this only applies to Joseph. If you continue reading, it continues to speak about specifics of Joseph's life. Plus we are told we would have His word through Joseph (D&C 5:10)

The prophet presides over the whole church, he is like Moses:

91 And again, the duty of the President of the office of the High Priesthood is to preside over the whole church, and to be like unto Moses—
92 Behold, here is wisdom; yea, to be a seer, a revelator, a translator, and a prophet, having all the gifts of God which he bestows upon the head of the church.
(Doctrine and Covenants 107:91–92)

Just because they sit in "Moses seat" doesn't mean they will automatically have all of these qualifications.

12 O be wise; what can I say more?
(Jacob 6:12)
In fact, look at those who sat in his seat at the time of Christ:


1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

If the Lord honored their agency and allowed them to sit in that seat, why would it be any different now?

Also, If you are called to be a bishop, or stake president, or any other calling, do you automatically assume the gifts and talents of the previous occupant? Do you automatically assume gifts and talents that are part of that calling? Are they to be developed?

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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Even Jesus Christ has said do as they say when they say keep the commandments. It is the doings that he has said of the leaders in his days upon the earth and throughout the life of mankind that he said follow not after if they do not that which he has said to do.

How can one know?

They must do as the kings of Israel were told to do. Write a personal copy of his laws and meditate upon them day and night until they are written upon the table of your heart. Place them on the door posts of your house and upon your gates. Place them as frontlet's before your eyes. Feast upon the words of Jesus Christ day and night over and over and over and hold fast to them as an iron rod pressing ever forward not listening to those who would mock you or make little of you.

Yes wait with patient hope and learn to keep far from oppression of others. Be wise and harmless and helpful to your fellow brothers and sisters.

And be filled with charity and a pure heart towards one another as Jesus Christ has said.

Jesus Christ has not asked for the flocks to be scattered nor to harm nor bite anyone.

So yes, stay close to the House of Ephraim if that is where the Lord has placed you and sound the alarm to the old men and administers of the law of God. Has this been in your days?
Are there families sleeping in cars and others enjoying billions and millions of dollars with little or no concerns for these cast out?

Awaken and see, can it be?

So yes keep the commandments as they cry out to you but go not after their doings when they keep not the commandments of Jesus Christ themselves. ♡

Stay and sound the alarm as Jesus Christ has said. ♡

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laronius
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by laronius »

I have found that many on this forum who contend against this doctrine often pervert its meaning into something its not. My definition of it is simply this: We look to the prophet to reveal God's word to mankind today, just like every prophet since Adam. This does not mean we worship, idolize, or deify him. If there are those who do, they do not understand the doctrine themselves. We simply see him as a source for God's revealed words. This also does not negate the need to take the Spirit as our guide. Indeed every prophet since Joseph Smith has preached the absolute necessity for the Spirit in our lives, to seek the confirming witness of all truths spoken, whether by a modern prophet, a Sunday school teacher, or even the scriptures themselves. We need to gain a witness by the Spirit.

So is this what you disagree with?

Frankly I find it a little humorous that you want us to use the words of prophets (i.e. scriptures) to show you the need for prophets.

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Jake
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Jake »

laronius wrote: We look to the prophet to reveal God's word to mankind today, just like every prophet since Adam.
I have great trouble reconciling the concept you have described above with these scriptures (and others):
James 1:5 - If any you lack wisdom, let him ask of God...
D&C 76:7 - And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom...
D&C 6:11 - And if thou wilt inquire, thou shalt know mysteries which are great and marvelous...
D&C 42:61 - If thou shalt ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge...
2nd Nephi 32:7 - ...I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness...

I can't help but ask the question - why do we look to prophets to reveal the word of God rather than seeking it for ourselves? The testimonies of prophets are good because they build our faith. But it seems SOOOO much better to take the idea that a prophet talked to God and received knowledge, and then we ourselves go before God and obtain that same knowledge. Relying on the prophet's knowledge instead of obtaining our own seems like that would be the epitome of relying on the arm of the flesh.

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jbalm
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by jbalm »

laronius wrote:Frankly I find it a little humorous that you want us to use the words of prophets (i.e. scriptures) to show you the need for prophets.
Good point.

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laronius
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by laronius »

Jake wrote:I have great trouble reconciling the concept you have described above with these scriptures (and others):
James 1:5 - If any you lack wisdom, let him ask of God...
D&C 76:7 - And to them will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom...
D&C 6:11 - And if thou wilt inquire, thou shalt know mysteries which are great and marvelous...
D&C 42:61 - If thou shalt ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge...
2nd Nephi 32:7 - ...I am left to mourn because of the unbelief, and the wickedness, and the ignorance, and the stiffneckedness of men; for they will not search knowledge, nor understand great knowledge, when it is given unto them in plainness...

I can't help but ask the question - why do we look to prophets to reveal the word of God rather than seeking it for ourselves?
Once again, you quote prophets to try to prove that we don't need prophets.

For the record, I nor anyone else on this forum has ever said we can't seek truth ourselves. Its not an all or nothing doctrine. God reveals his will prophets and to us, BOTH. Since the time of Adam God has called on certain individuals to reveal his doctrine to the rest of man. His doctrine is designed to bring all men to him (think temple endowment). But we are imperfect and often place ourselves in positions where God cannot reveal to us individually all he desires so he continues to call on men (prophets) to continue to reveal his word until we can be brought back into his presence. As we progress and draw nearer to him God does indeed reveal his will to us individually, which is the whole point of the gospel. But when he does, it will not conflict with what he continues to reveal to his prophets. Rather, what the prophet says should stand as a second witness to what the Spirit has revealed.

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clarkkent14
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by clarkkent14 »

jbalm wrote:
laronius wrote:Frankly I find it a little humorous that you want us to use the words of prophets (i.e. scriptures) to show you the need for prophets.
Good point.
It is a good point.

So to add to the stipulations, how do we know the message being delivered is from God?
How do you know that the scriptures are from God?
If this is a true doctrine, when has God taught it to the children of men?
How does he deliver this doctrine?
How do you know true messengers from false ones?

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Correct in that his will has been written and revealed through the "One Stick" given unto Ephraim to bring before the eyes of Judah that they be confounded no more on how to treat the poor among us, and join together as one nation under God indivisible with liberty and justice for all finally. ♡

Inheritances for "all" in the lands of promise.
Zion redeemed according to the word of God given to his beloved son Jesus Christ. ♡

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

You can read every Scripture written unto the children of men in all the different religious families he has created and given his words unto. You can see how some messengers have been coming to this earth over and over such as Gabriel from the presence of God. You can come to see how he has told them all how to treat the poor among them and to be pure in heart.

You may pray and be carried up to meet with him who sits upon the throne surrounded by hosts of angels that serve him.
You may have messengers come to you in dreams or see the Lord in dreams.
You can be present to meet with Jesus Christ in the flesh and walk with him and talk with him if you live accordingly as he has promised.
It is up to you as a child of God to love him and come to know him and see eye to eye with him, that he loves his children and has manifested as much in the flesh.

Know his words, sound the alarm as he has said, and prepare for the poor of his house a feast of fat things well refined of covenants and deeds that cannot be broken for the support of the families of teachers and priests and elders and high priests and bishops as he has commanded. :)

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laronius
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by laronius »

Alma described the process of God revealing his word through man in Alma 12. After explaining the fall and the need for the plan of redemption to be explained to man he said:

28 And after God had appointed that these things should come unto man, behold, then he saw that it was expedient that man should know concerning the things whereof he had appointed unto them;

29 Therefore he sent angels to converse with them, who caused men to behold of his glory.

30 And they began from that time forth to call on his name; therefore God conversed with men, and made known unto them the plan of redemption, which had been prepared from the foundation of the world; and this he made known unto them according to their faith and repentance and their holy works.


These men to whom angels (and even God) appeared are prophets. They stood as a physical link between this world and the next and revealed the word of God to a world that was largely not ready to behold for themselves. Those who heeded the prophet's teachings learned to call upon God themselves. As they became more holy God revealed more of himself to them. But until they arrived at that point where they could stand in the presence of God, a prophet was needed to continue to reveal God's word.

But as Moses exclaimed: "would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!" Moses understood God's desire to have his people enter back into his presence (think temple endowment). But as he witnessed at Mt. Sinai, its not an easy process to get people ready for it. So, as long as people are still preparing for that experience, a need for a prophet exists.

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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

The Scriptures cannot be fulfilled without them. :)

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Matthew.B
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Matthew.B »

I think there's solid scriptural foundation for "receiving" the prophets, which is something I think everyone on this forum advocates and what a lot mean when they say "follow the prophet".

The correlating idea that makes "follow the prophet" such a problem is the idea that the Lord will never allow the living President of the Church to lead the Church astray. That doctrine is what should be hyper-examined with a fine-toothed comb using the stipulations laid out in your OP, clarkkent14.

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

You may also use as a measuring Stick that which the Lord has given that you might consider it perfectly.

Jeremiah chapter 23 the entire chapter. :)

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clarkkent14
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by clarkkent14 »

laronius wrote:Alma described the process of God revealing his word through man in Alma 12. After explaining the fall and the need for the plan of redemption to be explained to man he said:

28 And after God had appointed that these things should come unto man, behold, then he saw that it was expedient that man should know concerning the things whereof he had appointed unto them;

29 Therefore he sent angels to converse with them, who caused men to behold of his glory.

30 And they began from that time forth to call on his name; therefore God conversed with men, and made known unto them the plan of redemption, which had been prepared from the foundation of the world; and this he made known unto them according to their faith and repentance and their holy works.


These men to whom angels (and even God) appeared are prophets. They stood as a physical link between this world and the next and revealed the word of God to a world that was largely not ready to behold for themselves. Those who heeded the prophet's teachings learned to call upon God themselves. As they became more holy God revealed more of himself to them. But until they arrived at that point where they could stand in the presence of God, a prophet was needed to continue to reveal God's word.

But as Moses exclaimed: "would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!" Moses understood God's desire to have his people enter back into his presence (think temple endowment). But as he witnessed at Mt. Sinai, its not an easy process to get people ready for it. So, as long as people are still preparing for that experience, a need for a prophet exists.
That's funny. I was reading these very verses just moments ago.

As I read through I noticed something. What excludes me or you from this pattern? Where does it say we must follow those who have taken this path? To me it echoes the pattern in the temple. A pattern and path available to all. You are to consider yourself Adam and Eve respectively. This pattern is for you.

We possess the key to the ministering of Angels. (D&C 84:26) You and I can speak their language. (2 Nephi 32:2). If it's not happening,we lack faith. (Moroni 7:37) And we are not redeemed. (Moroni 7:38)

Continue read in chapter 12
33 But God did call on men, in the name of his Son, (this being the plan of redemption which was laid) saying: If ye will repent, and harden not your hearts, then will I have mercy upon you, through mine Only Begotten Son;

34 Therefore, whosoever repenteth, and hardeneth not his heart, he shall have claim on mercy through mine Only Begotten Son, unto a remission of his sins; and these shall enter into my rest.
This is available to all. If you and I do this we will enter into His rest.
23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

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laronius
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by laronius »

I agree whole heartedly with you clarkkent. That is what it all boils down to. But I know I am not there yet. As such, I look to a prophet (with the Spirit confirming) to help me in this process. Prophets do NOT stand between us and God, but they do point to Him and we need to take advantage of what they have to offer us.

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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

There is a reason for having heads of Jacob and princes of the house of Israel. Else how can the Scriptures written be fulfilled. :)

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clarkkent14
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by clarkkent14 »

laronius wrote:But as Moses exclaimed: "would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!" Moses understood God's desire to have his people enter back into his presence (think temple endowment). But as he witnessed at Mt. Sinai, its not an easy process to get people ready for it. So, as long as people are still preparing for that experience, a need for a prophet exists.
It's not a question if prophets are needed, it's are we to "follow them."


To follow your logic out. Correct, it's not easy to prepare people (they reject the offering), they are given a lesser law (D&C 84:27), and the lesser priesthood (D&C 84:26). Because of our unbelief we too have been condemned (D&C 84:57) and received lesser (3 Nephi 26:10). We have received the lesser portion of the word. (Ether 4:6–19)
So, as long as people are still preparing for that experience, a need for a prophet exists.
It was reliance upon the prophet that condemned Israel. (D&C 84:23-25) Joseph lamented the same exact thing about the early saints: "President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves."

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clarkkent14
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by clarkkent14 »

laronius wrote:I agree whole heartedly with you clarkkent. That is what it all boils down to. But I know I am not there yet. As such, I look to a prophet (with the Spirit confirming) to help me in this process. Prophets do NOT stand between us and God, but they do point to Him and we need to take advantage of what they have to offer us.
I appreciate the ability to discuss back and forth with you without contending. this is an important topic to ponder. I have asked the question for those who hold fast to this doctrine so that they will think it through. I still have questions unanswered, but it's through careful pondering, reading, and prayer that I find the truth.

Yes I agree, prophets do NOT stand between us and God! Hallelujah! Yes, prophets do point to Him!

It starts to make one ponder so many more questions.

If prophets are not to be followed, how are we to receive the messages?
How do we know a message is from God?
How to you hearken to their words without following them?
How do you separate the message from the messenger?
Why do we turn to anyone other than the Lord for answers when He has so plainly taught that He will answer us? (and nothing is off limits Moroni 10:6)
What is "the duty devolving upon ourselves?"

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clarkkent14
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by clarkkent14 »

Early Church Priorities wrote:In 1836, Parley Pratt went to Toronto, Canada to continue his missionary work. He took a letter of introduction for John Taylor, who had been active in a religious reform movement. On May 9, 1836 Parley Pratt baptized John Taylor. That conversion was instrumental in bringing a number of others into the church who had respected John Taylor as a religious figure before his conversion.

By November, Parley Pratt was back in Kirtland and wrote a letter to his friend and recent convert. John Taylor was a new member when the letter was written, having been baptized only 6 months earlier. The content of the letter shows what was considered appropriate for even the newest of Latter-day Saints in 1836. Parley wrote:

For my part I never can rest until my eyes have seen my Redeemer. Until I have gazed like Nephi upon the glories of the Celestial world. Until I can come into full communion and familiar converse with the angels of glory and the spirits of just men made perfect through the blood of Christ. And I testify to all, both small and great, both male and female, that if they stop short of the full enjoyment of these things they stop short of the blessings freely offered to every creature in the Gospel.
(Parley Pratt letter to John Taylor, November 27, 1836; spellings and punctuation corrected.)

This was once fundamental, even basic teaching offered even to new converts. It did no damage to John Taylor.

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laronius
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by laronius »

Oh, I totally agree. I think the phrase "follow the prophet" is misinterpreted often and taken to an extent that was not originally intended. The Prophet points the way, hence the need to follow his counsel. But if people will really look at what they counsel they will see that they are told to get the Spirit and open the direct conduit to God (if you call via the Holy Ghost direct).

But just as Joseph Smith pointed out (a prophet whose counsel you are seeking to follow), there are those who don't do this. They take someone else's word for it and don't seek that confirmation. This doesn't place the prophet in the wrong, rather those who stop short of gaining the witness for themselves. I think sooner or later, though, the prophet is going to ask something of us that those who haven't learned to gain a witness through the Spirit will refuse to do. This may be part of the "cleansing" so many here talk about.

It sounds like you refer to "following the prophet" as those who trod behind never once trying to get a view of the path ahead for themselves only to step headlong into the quicksand that others , who saw, stepped right around. If this is the case then I agree that its not a good thing. But that is not the way I have interpreted that phraseology in the past.

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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Clark to get closer to God you need to get closer to him in spirit. I will give an example of how I got one step closer at a time. He has said if someone steals away your goods to just let them go and forgive them.
Have you tried this yet?
I labored with this but the more I did this the more confident I became that I was doing his will.
Just like when I see a bum on the street he said to see him there and to give freely. If you ever notice most of these respond "God bless you".
Bit by bit commandment after commandment seek to follow his words.
The more and more you turn the other cheek and revile not back against those that revile against you the closer and closer you can see the way he says to see. Until that great day comes when you see eye to eye with him on all his words which he has given us. Even to being beheaded and forgiveness towards those who would do this to you.
Then when you follow the prophet of the latter days may you have understanding of that of your fellow brother. It should be your desire to help him as a brother who loves him and cares about him. And If The Lord has said to cry out and sound the alarm as is written in the book of Joel so do. :)

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