The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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Seek the Truth
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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Excellent.

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ajax
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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mhewett wrote:the one where you, obrien and some others gave me a hard time to suggest we should have faith in our prophet, his counselors and the quorum of the 12. So you want some proof huh?
And right they should. So you exercise faith in TSMonson? BKPacker? MRBallard? Tho these three are with you, they can do nothing more than save their own souls (Eze. 14). Yoking yourself to them is to your condemnation.

Lecture 2:
1 Having shown in our previous lecture "faith itself-what it is," we shall proceed to show secondly the object on which it rests.

2 We here observe that God is the only supreme governor, and independent being, in whom all fulness and perfection dwells; who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omnicient; without beginning of days or end of life; and that in him every good gift, and every good principle dwells; and that he is the Father of lights: In him the principle of faith dwells independently; and he is the object in whom the faith of all other rational and accountable beings centers, for life and salvation.
Nothing else. Only yoke yourself to Christ, the only One who can save another. Gospel 101.

Messengers may bring messages, but that's it. A message for you to discern individually by the Holy Ghost. Not an indication for you to place faith in the messenger. Once you start on that road, the messenger becomes paramount over the message to the point where the messenger can say or do almost anything to the delight and acceptance of the hearers. Idol worship.

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sonofliberty
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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clarkkent14 wrote:There have been numerous debates on this forum about this doctrine. I thought it would be worthwhile for those who believe it is essential to salvation to persuade me this doctrine is true. If you are truly concerned for the salvation of my soul as well as others on this forum then don't make us feel, "persecuted by those who ought to [be our] friends and to [treat us] kindly, and if [you suppose us] to be deluded [then endeavor] in a proper and affectionate manner to [reclaim us.]" (JSH 1:28) I won't deny that both side have been passionate and I hope you can put that aside and really do your best to convince me as if I were your best friend.

Here are the stipulations. I have pondered a lot lately how all of us have inherited the church as it is now. Some have seen more changes than others, but all of us have inherited a church that had already existed for at least two generations before our time. A lot went on in that time span. So, I am limiting your references to two things. First, the standard works. They are they standard. Second, I only want references from general authorities given in the first generation of the church. 40 Years is considered a generation. I will allow 40 years after the death of Joseph Smith, so that gives you until 1884.

However, I am skeptical of quotes given 50 years after the fact recounting what Joseph taught. Why would you wait 50 years to write it down? Is that what you do? Do you wait 50 years after General Conference and then record the words, thoughts, and impressions? To me, those type of quotes are given to fit an agenda at that time they are recorded, they are then passed on as folklore, eventually quoted in conference and turned into church doctrine. If a quote says, Joseph taught," or "Joseph said," then they need to be corroborated with a contemporary source that actually proves he taught this. Otherwise ask yourself, why wasn't this recorded at the time he said it?

So persuade me. Convince me. Make your case in court. Why should I heed the doctrine "Follow the Prophet?"
If I am not mistaken, I believe the following revelation received through Joseph in 1831 corroborates this teaching.

Section 43

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, in February 1831. At this time some members of the Church were disturbed by people making false claims as revelators. The Prophet inquired of the Lord and received this communication addressed to the elders of the Church. The first part deals with matters of Church polity; the latter part contains a warning that the elders are to give to the nations of the earth.

1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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Jesus Christ stands at the head of the gate as the head prophet of this church as Moroni pointed out to Joseph Smith three times to repeat that there could be no mistake.

Acts 3:22-25 take a look at Joseph Smith 2 verse 40. :)

Where he tells Joseph that this prophet is "Christ" not him. :)

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sonofliberty
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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Robert Sinclair wrote:Jesus Christ stands at the head of the gate as the head prophet of this church as Moroni pointed out to Joseph Smith three times to repeat that there could be no mistake.

Acts 3:22-25 take a look at Joseph Smith 2 verse 40. :)

Where he tells Joseph that this prophet is "Christ" not him. :)
So are you saying that this scripture does not indicate that Joseph Smith would appoint another in his stead, but instead is referring to Christ being taken and appointing another in His own stead, or that the "gate" refers to each Prophet being appointed by Christ directly rather than indirectly through His servants?

Last time I checked Church history, Joseph Smith was not ordained to the Priesthood by Christ Himself. Christ appointed Joseph Smith through His servants. While of course they were Heavenly visitors in the case of Joseph Smith, that would not necessarily need to occur for Joseph's successor if Joseph could appoint him in his stead.
Last edited by sonofliberty on October 14th, 2014, 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Did he get a chance before he was shot, since he was not expecting to be shot? ♡

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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If not then the next was chosen by vote of common consent as have been the rest, under this original consent correct? ♡

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sonofliberty
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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I think it is pretty well established that he did so with the ordination of the apostles. Plus we can see in reading the New Testament that the senior Apostle, Peter, took over after Christ was taken from the Earth.

Didn't Joseph state when he was headed to Carthage that he was "going like a lamb to the slaughter?" I think that indicates he had some notion he would not survive.

Regardless, anyone can argue any point they wish. The OP asked for early Church references that support following the Prophet. D&C 43 does. You and others can choose to ignore it or interpret the plain meaning differently if you wish. That is your perogative.

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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But again it all goes back to what Moroni testified to Joseph Smith three times to make no mistake that Jesus Christ alone is the "prophet" that all must hearken unto or be destroyed period. ♡

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sonofliberty
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by sonofliberty »

Robert Sinclair wrote:But again it all goes back to what Moroni testified to Joseph Smith three times to make no mistake that Jesus Christ alone is the prophet that all must hearken unto or be destroyed period. ♡
I agree with you 100%. However, the plain meaning of D&C 43 does not contradict that. Christ is revealing through Joseph Smith, His servant, that we must follow only those that He appoints--through His servant(s). He also reveals to us the pattern He will use to do so. This does not mean that Christ is not the head and the we do not need to place Christ first in our lives. You are absolutely correct that if we do not place Christ first and seek a personal relationship with Him, it is at our own peril.

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Well can we please be allowed to wake them up as is written in Joel as Moroni also told Joseph would be soon needed?
That's it time to finally keep the commandments of God given to Joseph Smith of God that we must be equal in our temporal things and this not grudgingly by giving covenants and deeds into the hands of the poor Saints sufficient for the support of their families from the consecrated properties and monies and businesses donated to the church of the living God?
Who can make that call if God says they are asleep according to his word?

Who? :)

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sonofliberty
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by sonofliberty »

What are you getting at? That we are not following the law of consecration? I agree that there are many commandments, to include the law of consecration, that we are not following. We (the majority LDS) are more concerned with pleasing Babylon and gaining the praise of the world rather than the Lord. It is pretty evident that the condemnation the Church was placed under in D&C 84 is still in place today. However, I do not think it is because we have a fallen Prophet and Apostles, as it seems you might be implying. While they are not perfect, and some may even possibly be wolves in sheeps clothing, I believe this is still Christ's Church and they are choosen by Him through a process He ordained. That process creates order and eliminates confusion.

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

By the hand of God they have had their eyes closed and put to sleep. By his words also given to Moroni to go down to Joseph Smith and repeat three times to be sure there can be no mistake that anyone who reads will come to know that the words of Joel are going to come to pass soon. And I have put to sleep the old men and administers of the law of God.

And I am calling upon my people who can hear my voice to weep and howl and blow the trumpet and sound the alarm, that the old men and administers of the law of God can awaken and ask:

Hath this been in our day?

Yes, yes it has.

Bring his bride out of the closet clothed with equity and righteousness and justice.

Return to keep the commandments of God! :)

freedomforall
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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sonofliberty wrote:
clarkkent14 wrote:There have been numerous debates on this forum about this doctrine. I thought it would be worthwhile for those who believe it is essential to salvation to persuade me this doctrine is true. If you are truly concerned for the salvation of my soul as well as others on this forum then don't make us feel, "persecuted by those who ought to [be our] friends and to [treat us] kindly, and if [you suppose us] to be deluded [then endeavor] in a proper and affectionate manner to [reclaim us.]" (JSH 1:28) I won't deny that both side have been passionate and I hope you can put that aside and really do your best to convince me as if I were your best friend.

Here are the stipulations. I have pondered a lot lately how all of us have inherited the church as it is now. Some have seen more changes than others, but all of us have inherited a church that had already existed for at least two generations before our time. A lot went on in that time span. So, I am limiting your references to two things. First, the standard works. They are they standard. Second, I only want references from general authorities given in the first generation of the church. 40 Years is considered a generation. I will allow 40 years after the death of Joseph Smith, so that gives you until 1884.

However, I am skeptical of quotes given 50 years after the fact recounting what Joseph taught. Why would you wait 50 years to write it down? Is that what you do? Do you wait 50 years after General Conference and then record the words, thoughts, and impressions? To me, those type of quotes are given to fit an agenda at that time they are recorded, they are then passed on as folklore, eventually quoted in conference and turned into church doctrine. If a quote says, Joseph taught," or "Joseph said," then they need to be corroborated with a contemporary source that actually proves he taught this. Otherwise ask yourself, why wasn't this recorded at the time he said it?

So persuade me. Convince me. Make your case in court. Why should I heed the doctrine "Follow the Prophet?"
If I am not mistaken, I believe the following revelation received through Joseph in 1831 corroborates this teaching.

Section 43

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, in February 1831. At this time some members of the Church were disturbed by people making false claims as revelators. The Prophet inquired of the Lord and received this communication addressed to the elders of the Church. The first part deals with matters of Church polity; the latter part contains a warning that the elders are to give to the nations of the earth.

1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.
God also said this:


It is God that chooses, calls and appoints prophets as revealed in the following scripture.

Doctrine and Covenants 28:7
7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.

Here it is in context

1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.
2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.
3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.
4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.
5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;
6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;
7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.
Last edited by freedomforall on October 14th, 2014, 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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There is but one prophet that all must hearken unto or be destroyed, that is the prophet Moroni pointed to Joseph Smith to three times in the book of Acts 3:22-23, that there could be no mistake. That prophet is Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith or any that should follow. All others have been foretold to lead the people to err or astray from time of Joseph Smith including Joseph Smith who was of the house of Ephraim, which would reject the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ as foretold many thousands of years ago. It must needs be this way that the Scriptures written are fulfilled every whit. :)

Read the Scriptures written and see what Ephraim including Joseph Smith was to do, he was to have revealed the greater things of the law but go away from them. :)

So it has been written, and so it has been done. :)

Time to wake up and return to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ given him of God, as foretold by the book of Joel and Moroni many years ago. :)

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

You may indeed marvel at how this is that God would allow Ephraim to lead the people astray from the fullness of the gospel, but it is the wisdom of God to allow such things to manifest unto the people who follow after them to understand the hearts of men. All who come to know and understand these things shall marvel at the greatness of God and of his power to know all these things beforehand.
But all these things are and have been for those who seek to see the wisdom of God. :)

Now acknowledge your heart and offence against the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ and of God and return to keep his commandments which he has given us. :)

freedomforall
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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Verse 3 above states that Oliver was to pay heed to Joseph Smith as Prophet in obedience. Therefore, we could change the name from Oliver to any one of us to be obedient to our present day prophet. President Monson has been chosen in the stead of Joseph Smith, as brought out in verse 7, no less than any prophet in between.

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mhewett
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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ajax wrote:
mhewett wrote:the one where you, obrien and some others gave me a hard time to suggest we should have faith in our prophet, his counselors and the quorum of the 12. So you want some proof huh?
And right they should. So you exercise faith in TSMonson? BKPacker? MRBallard? Tho these three are with you, they can do nothing more than save their own souls (Eze. 14). Yoking yourself to them is to your condemnation.
When we say exercise faith in the prophet, maybe you are confused as to what is meant. Have I at any time said we should not have faith in Jesus Christ? No...I didn't think so. have I at any time said that the prophet can save us? No again. Only Christ can save, even the prophet cannot save himself, that is only through Christ. Have I ever said otherwise? No again.

Thomas S Monson has been called by Jesus Christ to be the prophet at this particular time in history. I have faith in that, that Jesus truly stands at the head of this church and leads it via His prophet, Thomas S Monson. Is it wrong to have faith that Jesus in in control of this church? It's His church afterall. if you get to know about our prophet, who can deny he is a man of God?

Even DS on his blog said he was gaining trust in our prophet. Trust in man???? Trust in the arm of flesh???? Oh my goodness, well DS said so and considering his views on the prophets since JS, that is quite an admission.

the truth is Ajax that we have faith in people, whether it is faith in what we believe or know they will or won't do or faith in your spouse that they will be true to you. we all exercise faith in one way or another. Those who voted Obama, had faith he would make a better America, oh sorry, bad example...... those who followed Gordon B Hinckley by reading the BOM were blessed, those who followed Noah were blessed (weren't too many were there). I followed the prophet and served a mission and I was incredibly blessed. There are things I don't have faith in like the ability of the politicians to tell the truth. Some are more truthful than others but very few would even know what the truth is.

There is nothing wrong with getting a confirmation that the prophet is called of God, no one has ever said the contrary but I would suggest that considering the amount of negative views about our church leaders, I wonder if those with negative views have asked. One thing I do have faith in on this site is that the negative views of the church will not stop and many who make those accusations, will not humble themselves enough to admit it even if they find out they were wrong.

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mhewett
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

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Robert Sinclair wrote:There is but one prophet that all must hearken unto or be destroyed, that is the prophet Moroni pointed to Joseph Smith to three times in the book of Acts 3:22-23, that there could be no mistake. That prophet is Jesus Christ, not Joseph Smith or any that should follow. All others have been foretold to lead the people to err or astray from time of Joseph Smith including Joseph Smith who was of the house of Ephraim, which would reject the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ as foretold many thousands of years ago. It must needs be this way that the Scriptures written are fulfilled every whit. :)

Read the Scriptures written and see what Ephraim including Joseph Smith was to do, he was to have revealed the greater things of the law but go away from them. :)

So it has been written, and so it has been done. :)

Time to wake up and return to keep the commandments of Jesus Christ given him of God, as foretold by the book of Joel and Moroni many years ago. :)
Hi Robert, yes Moroni did repeat the scriptures in Acts but what Moroni said was, "He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when “they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,” but soon would come.'

What he said was the prophet mentioned in that scripture was Jesus Christ but where does it say there was to be no other prophets ever? Let's just approach one topic at a time, there's time to do the others, Where do the scriptures say that after Christ there will never be other prophets or that if there are that they will lead the people astray?

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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

Look to Joel, do you see the moon turning to blood during the feast days, and look to the sun being darkened on Nisan the ancient Jews New Year on 3/20/15 and then like no other ever or ever after a super harvest blood red moon September 28, 2015, unprecedented during the Highest Holy Days of the Jews of Atonement and The Feast of Tabernacles where all of Israel is to dwell equally for eight days a Sabbath at the start and a Sabbath at the end sharing "all" their surplus with the poor and the needy the Levite and the stranger. :)

You shall surely know the time Moroni testified to is nigh.

Return unto me and I shall return unto you the Lord of Hosts has spoken.

Yes, it is time even unto the very last hour for Ephraim to acknowledge his offence and return to keep the commandments of God given to be equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly, by giving covenants and deeds that cannot be broken into the hands of the poor Saints sufficient for the support of their families from the consecrated properties and monies and businesses donated to the church of the faithful Saints. :)

And Merry Christmas to all if this can be prepared during the Thanksgiving holiday season and ready for distribution through the bishops like Saint Nicholas, bishop of Turkey who gave out gifts around the birth celebration of Jesus Christ, yes even his whole inheritance, to the poor and needy and afflicted, especially at this time of year. :)

Robert Sinclair
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by Robert Sinclair »

I think clarkkent14 would make a wonderful bishop looking just like Bishop Saint Nicholas in a few years with a snowy white beard and a jolly laugh handing out covenants and deeds into the hands of the poor Saints sufficient for the support of their families from the consecrated properties and monies and businesses donated to the church, he would surely make a jolly fellow indeed. :)

Ho, Ho, Ho...... Merry Christmas everyone! :)

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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by natekriv »

laronius wrote:I have found that many on this forum who contend against this doctrine often pervert its meaning into something its not. My definition of it is simply this: We look to the prophet to reveal God's word to mankind today, just like every prophet since Adam. This does not mean we worship, idolize, or deify him. If there are those who do, they do not understand the doctrine themselves. We simply see him as a source for God's revealed words. This also does not negate the need to take the Spirit as our guide. Indeed every prophet since Joseph Smith has preached the absolute necessity for the Spirit in our lives, to seek the confirming witness of all truths spoken, whether by a modern prophet, a Sunday school teacher, or even the scriptures themselves. We need to gain a witness by the Spirit.

So is this what you disagree with?

Frankly I find it a little humorous that you want us to use the words of prophets (i.e. scriptures) to show you the need for prophets.

I look to the Holy Ghost to reveal Gods word unto mankind. How in the world can me hearing a mans audible voice be equated to receiving revelation?
Hearken not unto the precepts of MEN, save they shall be taught by the power of the Holy Ghost. Trust not in the arm of FLESH.
Does the word "men" or "man" apply to thomas a monson? Does the word "flesh " apply? If you say no then you certainly do deify him. Therefore I should not trust the "man" unless the Holy Ghost confirms that whatever he teaches is true. Not one word from any mortal man is to be trusted unless you receive a confirmation from the spirit.

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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by freedomforall »

natekriv wrote:
laronius wrote:I have found that many on this forum who contend against this doctrine often pervert its meaning into something its not. My definition of it is simply this: We look to the prophet to reveal God's word to mankind today, just like every prophet since Adam. This does not mean we worship, idolize, or deify him. If there are those who do, they do not understand the doctrine themselves. We simply see him as a source for God's revealed words. This also does not negate the need to take the Spirit as our guide. Indeed every prophet since Joseph Smith has preached the absolute necessity for the Spirit in our lives, to seek the confirming witness of all truths spoken, whether by a modern prophet, a Sunday school teacher, or even the scriptures themselves. We need to gain a witness by the Spirit.

So is this what you disagree with?

Frankly I find it a little humorous that you want us to use the words of prophets (i.e. scriptures) to show you the need for prophets.

I look to the Holy Ghost to reveal Gods word unto mankind. How in the world can me hearing a mans audible voice be equated to receiving revelation?
Hearken not unto the precepts of MEN, save they shall be taught by the power of the Holy Ghost. Trust not in the arm of FLESH.
Does the word "men" or "man" apply to thomas a monson? Does the word "flesh " apply? If you say no then you certainly do deify him. Therefore I should not trust the "man" unless the Holy Ghost confirms that whatever he teaches is true. Not one word from any mortal man is to be trusted unless you receive a confirmation from the spirit.
Half true. True Prophets are not, I repeat...not the "arm of flesh". The arm of flesh refers to anyone teaching false doctrine, promoting doctrine based on one's own opinion or anyone wresting the scriptures to mean what they do not.
It is true that we must have confirmation from the Holy Ghost and this applies to obtaining truth even from the scriptures for they are of no private interpretation.

JST 2 Pet. 1:20
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scriptures is given of any private will of man.

And...we are to feast upon the word so the Holy Ghost can bring to mind what scriptures say in the moment we need it, with a caution.

D&C 100:5-7
5 Therefore, verily I say unto you, lift up your voices unto this people; speak the thoughts that I shall put into your hearts, and you shall not be confounded before men;
6 For it shall be given you in the very hour, yea, in the very moment, what ye shall say.
7 But a commandment I give unto you, that ye shall declare whatsoever thing ye declare in my name, in solemnity of heart, in the spirit of meekness, in all things.

And here is at least a second witness:

2 Nephi 32:3
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.

This can also apply to testing the words of the prophet. When we know the word, and the prophet speaks the same word...we can then be more trusting that what he says is true. When we do not feast upon the word...we are then on our own to either misconstrue what is being taught or seek the spirit to confirm what we hear. So why not know the word at first?
Only rare cases give us pause. Those topics have been covered extensively on other threads.

Some words about the "arm of flesh":


2 Nephi 4:34
34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

Jeremiah 17:5
5 ¶Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord. Departing from the Lord is clearly an example of "arm of flesh".

2 Nephi 28:31
31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost. This is a great example. Save = except or otherwise.

2 Chronicles 32:8
8 With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the Lord our God to help us, and to fight our battles. And the people rested themselves upon the words of Hezekiah king of Judah. Was Hezekiah the arm of flesh? I don't think so.

D&C 1:19
19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh— Yes, those who pervert the right way of the Lord.

The arm of flesh is also someone that boasts in their own strength and knowledge.

2 Nephi 4:8
8 And it came to pass that they were repulsed and driven back by the Nephites. And when the Nephites saw that they had driven the Lamanites they did again boast of their own strength; and they went forth in their own might, and took possession again of the city Desolation.

natekriv
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by natekriv »

Freedom for all

Yes exactly. Thankyou for repeating what I said. A prophet is to be tested in every word they speak by the spirit. Where you and I may disagree is in this.

I know that I prophet can be a prophet for one second and in the next second he or she may not be a prophet. Joseph smith taught this very concept.

I have seen plenty of talks where someone will bear testimony powerfully of a principle and in the next sentence speak a false doctrine.

The truth is that many people are asking the wrong questions. If I get a conformation from the Holy Ghost that someone is a prophet, which I have about MANY people, it means only that. We all can and ought to be prophets, but every prophet (in this dispensation at least) has still believed in falsehoods and slipped up. When we keep calling there word scripture every time they speak at conference or write in the ensign, it creates precedence. Then if one small false doctrine is taught and believed it perpetuates a snowball effect until you years and years down the road there are many falsehoods mixed in with the truth. This is why there has never been a true church in earth that has lasted more than a few generations. Apostasy happens. Enoch was the only one God allowed to raise up Zion successfully that didn't fall.

freedomforall
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Re: The Doctrine of Follow the Prophet

Post by freedomforall »

natekriv wrote:Freedom for all

Yes exactly. Thankyou for repeating what I said. A prophet is to be tested in every word they speak by the spirit. Where you and I may disagree is in this.

I know that I prophet can be a prophet for one second and in the next second he or she may not be a prophet. Joseph smith taught this very concept.

I have seen plenty of talks where someone will bear testimony powerfully of a principle and in the next sentence speak a false doctrine.

The truth is that many people are asking the wrong questions. If I get a conformation from the Holy Ghost that someone is a prophet, which I have about MANY people, it means only that. We all can and ought to be prophets, but every prophet (in this dispensation at least) has still believed in falsehoods and slipped up. When we keep calling there word scripture every time they speak at conference or write in the ensign, it creates precedence. Then if one small false doctrine is taught and believed it perpetuates a snowball effect until you years and years down the road there are many falsehoods mixed in with the truth. This is why there has never been a true church in earth that has lasted more than a few generations. Apostasy happens. Enoch was the only one God allowed to raise up Zion successfully that didn't fall.
If I recall correctly, Christ drew people unto him and then lost all of them after his crucifixion at some point, so that his church fell. At one time or another they didn't even know he was God Jehovah in the flesh, yet he had to keep feeding them knowledge and stirring them up unto obedience in order to keep them following him.
So in many cases it isn't the prophet that falls or teaches false doctrine, it is the unbelieving followers and sideline mockers that cause the fall. There are many cases where a good prophet loses almost all their followers to evil doings.
No one should follow a prophet blindly, rather, they should look to the prophet as a man called of God, a sinner if you will, that God has put in charge of the flock. The Book of Mormon has many examples of this. There were prophets, their assigned leaders called to other stewardships and then the main body of members. Some of the prophets had to go about the countryside and set the members straight about how to live the gospel, to let go of pride and disputations.
God tells us to forgive others, and that includes prophets. Anyone that has feasted upon the word could tell rather easily if a prophet is out of the way or not. But God expects us to follow the prophet as long as the prophet is striving for perfection and teaching God's word correctly. Otherwise Joseph Smith wouldn't have gotten very far having come out with new and unheard of doctrine and new ways of doing things. He had to have followers in order to succeed. At that time they had to go on blind faith because they hadn't had the new doctrine. They had to trust that JS was teaching truth.
Today is different. We have the scriptures before us; we're told to study them, we're supposed to pray and gain our own testimony of the truth...or the chance of falling exists in each and every one of us. Those who place their testimony on any other shirttail is in for a bumpy ride and could fall off.
Like I said...a true prophet, one who seeks to live as Christ teaches, is not the arm of flesh as some people proclaim. Besides, we have a very solid guideline to go by, which is..."by their fruits."
We should all be seeking perfection, no less than a true prophet. A prophet is no more righteous than any other person seeking to follow Christ in every way as we are all sinners. God knows the condition and aim of all our hearts and this is what counts. No one will be able to fool, lie or hide at the day of judgement.

Mosiah 2:21
21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

Luke 17:10 (7–10)
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow (think) not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

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