Davidic Servant and the No Strongman Concept

[Joe Gardner]

I wanted to see if some of you could help me with a topic that has me a little perplexed. It's about the combination of the Davidic Servant and the concept Denver Snuffer broached in one of his talks about how we don't need a strongman.

Before I ask my question I need to clarify that I do not believe the Davidic Servant to be Christ, Joseph Smith, or Denver Snuffer. If you do believe the Servant to be one of those that is more than okay with me. I only state that in the hope that this thread does not turn into a debate about who the Servant is or was. If you believe the Servant is one of the three above, please humor me for the purpose of helping me find an answer to my question.

Assuming the Servant is still to come and is not Christ, is it possible for that Servant to not be a strongman? I ask this because of what Gileadi wrote on pages 44-45 in Isaiah Decoded:

"Because the servant is a counterforce to the destruction the archtryant causes, we must remember that while one is "doing his thing" so is the other. Although they are contemporaries, they have opposite agendas...Isaiah characterizes the archtryant as a power of chaos or evil in the world, but the servant is a power of creation on the side of God.

Like the archtyrant, the servant is a composite of ancient types. Like Moses, he leads God's people in a new exodus to the Promised Land, this time not to escape the plagues of Egypt but the worldwide catastrophe engineered by the archtryant.

God's servant and his associates gather up God's people to escape the desolation of the wicked.

Like Cyrus, the Persian emperor, the servant reconquers the world from its evil overlords and reestablishes God's people in promised lands. Like Joshua-when Israel seized the Land of Canaan from its corrupt occupants - the servant assigns God's people permanent inheritances. Like Solomon, he builds the temple to which Jehovah comes to reign as King, with which event the millennial age begins."

Based on Gileadi's interpretation of the Servant it appears to me that the Servant will have to be a strongman in order to achieve all that Isaiah prophesied of him.

Thank you in advance for any ideas you have.

[marc]

You are conflating "strongman" with "Davidic servant." This servant, whether Christ or not, does not fit the "strongman" definition, which Brother Snuffer has spent a lot of time defining. The strongman model is the antithesis of the common consent (Zion) model.

[pjbrownie]

A servant who comes, like Christ or Joseph Smith, bearing fruits, working miracles, has no need to be a strong man, in the sense DS used, because their authenticity will be their power, not a get in line obedience. We seem to forget because we venerate our modern prophets so much, that people would meet Joseph Smith, believe in the Book of Mormon, that Joseph was called as a prophet, but disagree with him on all sorts of things, they certainly felt his equal, which probably made dissensions more likely, since Brigham tamped that down tight in the Utah era.

[cayenne]

Just some of my thoughts on this servant.

I see the servant as strong because he is meek, and full of love. He is powerful because of his desire to lift others up in Christ. His strength is from God which causes him to to be incapable of bowing to threats, or accepting bribes. He most certainly will be a mighty enforcer of God's word. I see him as being sent to say ENOUGH already, lets get things in line where their supposed to be.

I see him teaching and showing by example true equality to all those who choose to hear. I see him as protecting all men in their God given fundamental rights no matter what their personal religious beliefs are...….Among those whom choose to believe in the true God he will show them the true order of equality. How? I believe the servants greatest strength in God is his total unselfishness.

I believe this servant is indeed from the line of David, and therefore the line of Christ. That Christ did have children, and that this particular bloodline went into France, ended up being part of the Merovingian Kings, and the Mayors of the Palace. He will not only unite Ephraim and Judah and the other tribes, but I think he also will eventually take the place of the Pope (as in he will not only be the 'head' to the Mormons, but all believers including those among the Catholics, Jews, and Muslims……and this was one of the treatise of the Knights Templar as I understand it, for the rightful heir to align these together.

As Isaiah seems to indicate, this David servant is hated, and feels a failure much of his life. He appears to be rejected by his own people, etc….I have often thought if there is some man among us who claims to love God, but yet for some reason is cast out by so called 'believers' who claim to be of God, then maybe that man could be a candidate for this servant someday. Obviously from Isaiah this servant is not popular, and does not enjoy the social avenues that 'his own people' do. Why would his own people who claim God cast him out? I suppose because they themselves are prideful and full of themselves. His soul must in turn irritate them even though I doubt he does them any wrong. (reminds me of a lot of patterns in scripture of other prophets)

Me thinks a lot of people will feel stupid when they find out who he is, and that they never invited him to the party so to speak. I just hope for all of our sakes that is none of us doing the rejecting!



I even think he probably will be long haired and maybe even bearded lol……long live the beard!

[isaacs2066]

Cayenne, you are right on the money my friend. However he will also be a warrior or warlike. Otherwise he could not bear the title mighty and strong. The only other two men to get that title in scripture (that I am aware of) are Moroni - "And Moroni was a strong and a mighty man..." Alma 48:11, and the Lord himself - "Who is this King of glory? The Lord strong and mighty, the Lord mighty in battle." Psalm 24:8.
Even Enoch was called a "wild man" Moses 6:37. Interestingly "wild man" in the book of Enoch is only applied to warrior type leaders.

[Lizzy60]

I believe the servant's warrior-like qualities will only be manifest when he is doing the will of the Lord. When God instructs him to destroy something, or cause a mountain to be moved out of its place, he will only be manifesting the power that has been given to him by God, as a sign of his role and calling.

Otherwise, he is a very meek and humble man, badly treated by those who claim to know Christ, but do not hear His voice.

[Tony]

The servant will lead the U.S. and the free world in a war. The war is detailed in Isaiah chapters 13 and 14 (both chapters are in the Book of Mormon). The war is also detailed in Ezekiel chapter 39 and 3 Nephi chapter 21.

Chapter 13 begins the restoration of the gospel: “Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain,” as in the song we sing, “High on the mountain top, a banner is unfurled.”, and at the end of the war in chapter 14, the last verse reads: “What shall then answer the messengers of the nations? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.”

The same war is detailed in Ezekiel chapter 39, and the last verse reads: “I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord God.”

Christ Himself spoke of the war in 3 Nephi chapter 21, and the last verse reads: “And they shall go out from all nations; and they shall not go out in haste, nor go by flight, for I will go before them, saith the Father, and I will be their rearward.”

To recap, when the war ends, we will see:

“The Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.”

“I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel.”

“And they shall go out from all nations; and they shall not go out in haste, nor go by flight, for I will go before them, saith the Father, and I will be their rearward.”

[isaacs2066]

I agree that he will only be a warrior when the Lord commands it, because the only time war is justified by God is when he directly commands it.

Also what are everyones thoughts on the relation between the political Kingdom of God and the United States? From what I could piece together it seems the United States is Gods political kingdom and that the physical land of Zion will be just one of the states. It also seems that the United States will eventually include the whole earth with the constitution as the law and Jesus Christ as king.

[Silver Pie]

I think this post (below) is, thus far, helping me most in my quest to discover more information about the davidic servant (no, I'm not the opening poster; I said in a different thread that I bumped, that I was seeking more info about the davidic servant, and a Google search brought up a lot of LDSFF threads (they were at the top).

I hesitate to post here, because this will bump the thread and the op talked about DS - and DS is not the focus of my search. Understanding who and what the davidic servant is my focus. ("Who" as in the type of person/ality, not as in the name of some man or other.)

Just some of my thoughts on this servant.

I see the servant as strong because he is meek, and full of love. He is powerful because of his desire to lift others up in Christ. His strength is from God which causes him to to be incapable of bowing to threats, or accepting bribes. He most certainly will be a mighty enforcer of God's word. I see him as being sent to say ENOUGH already, lets get things in line where their supposed to be.

I see him teaching and showing by example true equality to all those who choose to hear. I see him as protecting all men in their God given fundamental rights no matter what their personal religious beliefs are...….Among those whom choose to believe in the true God he will show them the true order of equality. How? I believe the servants greatest strength in God is his total unselfishness.

I believe this servant is indeed from the line of David, and therefore the line of Christ. That Christ did have children, and that this particular bloodline went into France, ended up being part of the Merovingian Kings, and the Mayors of the Palace. He will not only unite Ephraim and Judah and the other tribes, but I think he also will eventually take the place of the Pope (as in he will not only be the 'head' to the Mormons, but all believers including those among the Catholics, Jews, and Muslims……and this was one of the treatise of the Knights Templar as I understand it, for the rightful heir to align these together.

As Isaiah seems to indicate, this David servant is hated, and feels a failure much of his life. He appears to be rejected by his own people, etc….I have often thought if there is some man among us who claims to love God, but yet for some reason is cast out by so called 'believers' who claim to be of God, then maybe that man could be a candidate for this servant someday. Obviously from Isaiah this servant is not popular, and does not enjoy the social avenues that 'his own people' do. Why would his own people who claim God cast him out? I suppose because they themselves are prideful and full of themselves. His soul must in turn irritate them even though I doubt he does them any wrong. (reminds me of a lot of patterns in scripture of other prophets)

Me thinks a lot of people will feel stupid when they find out who he is, and that they never invited him to the party so to speak. I just hope for all of our sakes that is none of us doing the rejecting!



I even think he probably will be long haired and maybe even bearded lol……long live the beard!

[davedan]

Whitehorse prophecy involves a white horse (peaceful conquest) and not a red horse (war). Conquest could be achieved by maintaining order.

[Alaris]

I think this post (below) is, thus far, helping me most in my quest to discover more information about the davidic servant (no, I'm not the opening poster; I said in a different thread that I bumped, that I was seeking more info about the davidic servant, and a Google search brought up a lot of LDSFF threads (they were at the top).

I hesitate to post here, because this will bump the thread and the op talked about DS - and DS is not the focus of my search. Understanding who and what the davidic servant is my focus. ("Who" as in the type of person/ality, not as in the name of some man or other.)

Hey Silver Pie. I have some thoughts for you to understanding who and what the davidic servant is. I've seen others post that he has to be this that or the other thing and anyone claiming otherwise is false. This is the same thinking that made the Jews blind to Jesus and Christians blind to Joseph Smith.

The Davidic Servant just is. He's a man. He is chosen, but he's still just a man given a work to accomplish just like every other prophet. Like every other prophet he will likely doubt himself and not rely on other's perceived notions of who or what he should be .. he'll receive his directions and work from the Lord directly.

Also, he won't care to announce himself or his work. The Lord will make it clear or unclear as to who he is as He sees fit.

[Silver Pie]

Hey Silver Pie. I have some thoughts for you to understanding who and what the davidic servant is. I've seen others post that he has to be this that or the other thing and anyone claiming otherwise is false. This is the same thinking that made the Jews blind to Jesus and Christians blind to Joseph Smith.

The Davidic Servant just is. He's a man. He is chosen, but he's still just a man given a work to accomplish just like every other prophet. Like every other prophet he will likely doubt himself and not rely on other's perceived notions of who or what he should be .. he'll receive his directions and work from the Lord directly.

Also, he won't care to announce himself or his work. The Lord will make it clear or unclear as to who he is as He sees fit.

This is probably the most profound answer I've had to my questions in the assorted threads I've commented on (about this subject).

An ordinary man, like every other prophet. Quietly working, quietly doing what the Lord tells him to do. And, I expect, we may not even realize it is him until after he's done the work, if then. Heck, we may have to wait until we see God and ask Him who it was, or if the guy ever showed up.

[Alaris]

Hey Silver Pie. I have some thoughts for you to understanding who and what the davidic servant is. I've seen others post that he has to be this that or the other thing and anyone claiming otherwise is false. This is the same thinking that made the Jews blind to Jesus and Christians blind to Joseph Smith.

The Davidic Servant just is. He's a man. He is chosen, but he's still just a man given a work to accomplish just like every other prophet. Like every other prophet he will likely doubt himself and not rely on other's perceived notions of who or what he should be .. he'll receive his directions and work from the Lord directly.

Also, he won't care to announce himself or his work. The Lord will make it clear or unclear as to who he is as He sees fit.

This is probably the most profound answer I've had to my questions in the assorted threads I've commented on (about this subject).

An ordinary man, like every other prophet. Quietly working, quietly doing what the Lord tells him to do. And, I expect, we may not even realize it is him until after he's done the work, if then. Heck, we may have to wait until we see God and ask Him who it was, or if the guy ever showed up.

Thanks Silver Pie. I believe the Lord will make him visible at some point and will "mark" him so to say as the Lord does with His chosen - He will give the DS some task to accomplish or will show His favor of the DS is some public way - the DS will not have to say, "Hey everyone I'm the DS." At worst he'll answer "Some say you are the DS and others say you are Elijah" with something clever answer like, "It's one of those two."

The original David's favor with the Lord was shown when he bested Goliath.

Moses favor was shown when he obeyed the Lord's commands to Egypt.

Enoch's favor was shown through his obedience and being given power.

I think the DS will fall in there somewhere - his being marred and healed may or may not be public. I'll have to ponder on this some more, but I feel there is some event where he will be made manifest.

There are a lot of works for him to do, but I feel like the elect will be given a chance to sign up with his works - or at least be aware of his works to witness them - early in his tenure.

Edit: One more thought. Gideon of the OT was a mighty man of valor. I remember teaching this to the 9-10 year olds and it was my favorite lesson next to Joseph of Egypt. Why was he mighty? He was might because of his valor - his valor is what gain him favor with the Lord ... who made him mighty. The Lord is our strength is a huge meme that the Lord reinforces throughout the OT especially. This will be the case with the DS as well I believe.

[Silver Pie]

Thanks. You make sense, and you have scriptural examples to support what you say.