How do you resolve this in your own mind?

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Amonhi
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How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by Amonhi »

Not in the spirit of contention, but as a sincere question for seekers of truth, I won't even provide my own thoughts on it unless asked or requested. I am interested in all three sides of the fence, (being 1- bias toward the Church, 2 -unbiased or neither looking for fault nor looking to support the church and 3 - biased against the church).

The question is how does one resolve this statement by the church with the actual events we have been witnessing?
"Sometimes members’ actions contradict Church doctrine and lead others astray. While uncommon, some members in effect choose to take themselves out of the Church by actively teaching and publicly attempting to change doctrine to comply with their personal beliefs. This saddens leaders and fellow members. In these rare cases, local leaders have the responsibility to clarify false teachings and prevent other members from being misled. Decisions are made by local leaders and not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters. - http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/c ... -questions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
With the many examples of what is happening like this:
Dysenchanted wrote:And now they’re going to excommunicate me. WHAT the!?!? It makes no sense! Neither my RS president nor my bishop fully understand why, but “there must be a good reason behind all this.” WHAT!?
...
When I questioned my bishop further, he seemed to know a bit about Denver and had spoken to others about this subject already, so I asked him what his opinion was of him. He said something to the effect of, “I don’t know too much about what he writes or speaks about, but I do know there’s a good reason for ALL OF THE EXCOMMUNICATIONS.” I was taken back by that and asked further. What do you mean ALL of the excommunications? He said there are a lot of excommunications over this Denver guy. What the????? I told him I had heard of rumors, but had thought they were being exaggerated. He said, no, there are a lot, but there’s a good reason for them. (He just doesn’t know what that good reason is…)
...
“Well, I think it has to do with the whole “Denver’s a prophet thing” he said. - See Post Here
Also I would like to know how people are resolving this with the "Training" done in the Stakes of people like Kate Kelly by Apostles on church discipline In which the Apostle specifically brought up Kate Kelly as an example...a short time prior to the leaders taking action.

Thanks,
Amonhi

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FoxMammaWisdom
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by FoxMammaWisdom »

It's been proven to be a lie over and over - in some cases, with audio and written proof. MANY cases have come out recently, and there are many from the past that utterly disprove that portion you underlined Amonhi. There are at least 6 untruths in that statement by the church. I'm sorry if that's not an unpopular statement to make, but sometimes the truth hurts. In this case, it probably hurts many members to realize false statements being purported by leadership.

This is an example of why we cannot rely upon the arm of the flesh; man is imperfect and fallible. If we trust in God and follow only God, it's easier to resolve these things when they come to light. The truth of all things is easier to embrace.

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Jeremy
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by Jeremy »

There seems to be a contradiction. Either one side or both sides are not being honest. I resolve it by recognizing both sides have their own faults and limitations. However, one side seems to be claiming authority. This creates a major problem.
D&C 121 wrote:37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen.
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—
43 Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
Resolved: Amen to the priesthood of that man and their supposed authority. While the heavens withdrawal, they are left to persecute the saints and fight against God. That kingdom shall fall and mighty is the fall thereof.

janderich
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by janderich »

I believe this statement, "Decisions are made by local leaders and not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters" may be justified in the minds of those giving it because there is no formal coordination. In other words, HQ may investigate a person and provide information to local leaders but they do not force local leaders to impose disciplinary action. Now the very fact that HQ's provides information is enough for some stake presidents and bishops to hold a council. So in a sense it is coordinated and directed but I can see how some within the church might feel otherwise. The statement at best treads a fine line, hinging on the meaning of the terms directed and coordinated.

My biggest concern has been with the secrecy of the process. I'm not sure I understand why there is a Strengthening Church Member's Committee but it is not openly acknowledged. If HQ was open about the fact that there is an organization that does investigate members and does provide information to local leaders I think most would understand.

Lance
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

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Matthew.B
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by Matthew.B »

It's a lie told in a desperate attempt to save face. That's how I reconcile it. The liars probably justify it as "lying for the Lord".

There is one other possibility: the PR people who wrote the news release are ignorant of the facts and believe what they wrote is the truth. In my opinion, that possibility bodes worse for the state of Church affairs, so I favor my first explanation.

Thomas
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by Thomas »

janderich wrote:I believe this statement, "Decisions are made by local leaders and not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters" may be justified in the minds of those giving it because there is no formal coordination. In other words, HQ may investigate a person and provide information to local leaders but they do not force local leaders to impose disciplinary action. Now the very fact that HQ's provides information is enough for some stake presidents and bishops to hold a council. So in a sense it is coordinated and directed but I can see how some within the church might feel otherwise. The statement at best treads a fine line, hinging on the meaning of the terms directed and coordinated.

My biggest concern has been with the secrecy of the process. I'm not sure I understand why there is a Strengthening Church Member's Committee but it is not openly acknowledged. If HQ was open about the fact that there is an organization that does investigate members and does provide information to local leaders I think most would understand.
The problem is the leadership are supposed to be judges not accusers. It is an abuse of their authority and corrupts the governance of the church. The local authorities are supposed to be judges and judge as to the worthiness of a member to remain or be cast out. The seventies, twelve and first presidency are supposed to hear appeals. How can you appeal to someone who has decided you are guilty before they even heard your side of the story? How can local judges judge righteously if they are pressured by higher ups to excommunicate?

How can we excommunicate leaders if it is not allowed to criticize leaders, even if the criticism is true? God set up the church with a sharing of power. The leaders have grabbed that power to themselves and now say it is right for them to use priesthood to cover their sins. Well, D&C 107 and D&C 121 says they cannot use priesthood in that manner.

Ezra
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by Ezra »

J Ruben Clark

“…I say unto you with all the soberness I can, that we stand in danger of losing our liberties, and that once lost, only blood will bring them back; and once lost, we of this Church will, in order to keep the Church going forward, have more sacrifices to make and more persecutions to endure than we have yet known, heavy as our sacrifices and grievous as our persecutions of the past have been. If the conspiracy comes here it will probably come in its full vigor and there will be a lot of vacant places among those who guide and direct, not only this government, but also this Church of ours.” [Conference Report, April 1944]

Signs of the times we are in.

worthit
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by worthit »

How can we excommunicate leaders if it is not allowed to criticize leaders, even if the criticism is true? God set up the church with a sharing of power. The leaders have grabbed that power to themselves and now say it is right for them to use priesthood to cover their sins. Well, D&C 107 and D&C 121 says they cannot use priesthood in that manner.
Excellent point. Richard Lyman was and apostle who was exed for having an affair with his secretary. Spencer W. Kimball replaced him as a member of the quorum of the twelve. Nowadays Lyman's affair might only cost members their connections with the church if they dared to say something. It is well to not nurture an environment where corruption can flourish so easily and continue unmolested.

freedomforall
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by freedomforall »

worthit wrote:
How can we excommunicate leaders if it is not allowed to criticize leaders, even if the criticism is true? God set up the church with a sharing of power. The leaders have grabbed that power to themselves and now say it is right for them to use priesthood to cover their sins. Well, D&C 107 and D&C 121 says they cannot use priesthood in that manner.
Excellent point. Richard Lyman was and apostle who was exed for having an affair with his secretary. Spencer W. Kimball replaced him as a member of the quorum of the twelve. Nowadays Lyman's affair might only cost members their connections with the church if they dared to say something. It is well to not nurture an environment where corruption can flourish so easily and continue unmolested.
God said:

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

He didn't mince words. He didn't maybe. He didn't offer any outs. He did say "be."

Many people don't want to be perfect so they turn away. While others have their favorite sin that they just don't want to let go of. Others dwindle in unbelief.

None of these are an excuse for not being perfect. God does accept wooden nickles.

When a person truly decides they want to be perfect they do this:

Moroni 10:32,33
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

1 deny yourselves of all ungodliness
2 love God with all your might, mind and strength
3 by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ
4 nowise deny the power of God
5 then are ye sanctified in Christ
6 through the shedding of the blood of Christ
7 unto the remission of your sins
8 ye become holy, without spot

This is the formula for perfection.

dauser
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by dauser »

When a person joins a church... they should NOT stop looking for a better, a more powerful, a more beautiful, a cheaper and when they find that joyous institution they should leave the old and with haste join the better.

Excommunication is a win win...it helps people make hard choices so they can get what they want for themselves and their posterity.

When a faithful member is excommunicated he feel a great loss, he feels little anger, he will continue to attend and pay offerings and eventually will be rebaptized... and he wins.

When a wicked member is excommunicated he feels no loss, perhaps a little anger... or relief, but will have no desire to return and he wins.

freedomforall
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by freedomforall »

dauser wrote:When a person joins a church... they should NOT stop looking for a better, a more powerful, a more beautiful, a cheaper and when they find that joyous institution they should leave the old and with haste join the better.

Excommunication is a win win...it helps people make hard choices so they can get what they want for themselves and their posterity.

When a faithful member is excommunicated he feel a great loss, he feels little anger, he will continue to attend and pay offerings and eventually will be rebaptized... and he wins.

When a wicked member is excommunicated he feels no loss, perhaps a little anger... or relief, but will have no desire to return and he wins.
Just what does he win?

janderich
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by janderich »

Thomas wrote:The problem is the leadership are supposed to be judges not accusers. It is an abuse of their authority and corrupts the governance of the church. The local authorities are supposed to be judges and judge as to the worthiness of a member to remain or be cast out. The seventies, twelve and first presidency are supposed to hear appeals. How can you appeal to someone who has decided you are guilty before they even heard your side of the story? How can local judges judge righteously if they are pressured by higher ups to excommunicate?
It appears to me you have here made some assumptions which may not be valid.

1. You have assumed the seventies, twelve and first presidency have pre-determined a persons guilt. You do not know this and it is a heavy accusation to throw around.
2. You have assumed that higher ups pressure local leaders to excommunicate. I have read of some limited pressure from general authorities to hold a court but I have not read of pressure to excommunicate.
How can we excommunicate leaders if it is not allowed to criticize leaders, even if the criticism is true? God set up the church with a sharing of power. The leaders have grabbed that power to themselves and now say it is right for them to use priesthood to cover their sins. Well, D&C 107 and D&C 121 says they cannot use priesthood in that manner.
"We" cannot excommunicate leaders. It has never been given to the general body of the church to do so. Local leaders excommunicate members. To complain that general authorities excommunicate members when they should not and then throw out this statement shows the inconsistency of your position. Further, the public court of opinion is not a place to criticize leaders. Such tactics aim to garner support by appealing to the masses. Often the "truth" provided is one sided. This is what Zeezrom tried to do, in front of the Ammonihahites. He accused Amulek of an abuse of power and told the people that Amulek acted, "as though he had authority to command God." He was proven wrong in all points. However, even if the argument is not one sided, or contains some grain of truth, it leads people to act out of zeal without knowledge. The hope is that people will rise up in mass to pressure authorities, even if they do not know the facts. This is not the Lord's way.

Amonhi
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by Amonhi »

Jules wrote:It's been proven to be a lie over and over - in some cases, with audio and written proof. MANY cases have come out recently, and there are many from the past that utterly disprove that portion you underlined Amonhi. There are at least 6 untruths in that statement by the church. I'm sorry if that's not an unpopular statement to make, but sometimes the truth hurts. In this case, it probably hurts many members to realize false statements being purported by leadership.

This is an example of why we cannot rely upon the arm of the flesh; man is imperfect and fallible. If we trust in God and follow only God, it's easier to resolve these things when they come to light. The truth of all things is easier to embrace.
I was unaware that this has been "proven" and that there is written and audio proof. Could you please provide more information or some of these references?

Thanks,
Amonhi

Amonhi
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by Amonhi »

Thomas wrote: The seventies, twelve and first presidency are supposed to hear appeals. How can you appeal to someone who has decided you are guilty before they even heard your side of the story?
That's a good point that I hadn't considered.

Thanks!

Amonhi
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by Amonhi »

Ezra wrote:J Ruben Clark

“…I say unto you with all the soberness I can, that we stand in danger of losing our liberties, and that once lost, only blood will bring them back; and once lost, we of this Church will, in order to keep the Church going forward, have more sacrifices to make and more persecutions to endure than we have yet known, heavy as our sacrifices and grievous as our persecutions of the past have been. If the conspiracy comes here it will probably come in its full vigor and there will be a lot of vacant places among those who guide and direct, not only this government, but also this Church of ours.” [Conference Report, April 1944]

Signs of the times we are in.
Wow, neat find! Thanks!

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BroJones
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by BroJones »

Doctrine & Covenants 112:
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

27 Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord.
Thus we read that there will be a cleansing by the LORD; and for us, " see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord."

And then, in the same section, the Lord's warning to the fifteen:

30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times,

31 Which power you hold, in connection with all those who have received a dispensation at any time from the beginning of the creation;

32 For verily I say unto you, the keys of the dispensation, which ye have received, have come down from the fathers, and last of all, being sent down from heaven unto you.

33 Verily I say unto you, behold how great is your calling. Cleanse your hearts and your garments, lest the blood of this generation be required at your hands.
Clearly they have the keys and a heavy charge -- and the Lord is watching over.

Thomas
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by Thomas »

janderich wrote:"We" cannot excommunicate leaders. It has never been given to the general body of the church to do so. Local leaders excommunicate members. To complain that general authorities excommunicate members when they should not and then throw out this statement shows the inconsistency of your position. Further, the public court of opinion is not a place to criticize leaders. Such tactics aim to garner support by appealing to the masses. Often the "truth" provided is one sided. This is what Zeezrom tried to do, in front of the Ammonihahites. He accused Amulek of an abuse of power and told the people that Amulek acted, "as though he had authority to command God." He was proven wrong in all points. However, even if the argument is not one sided, or contains some grain of truth, it leads people to act out of zeal without knowledge. The hope is that people will rise up in mass to pressure authorities, even if they do not know the facts. This is not the Lord's way.
I think the problem is that most members don't know what is the Lord's way. If they would read the scriptures, they could find out what God has revealed.
D&C 107: 82 And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;

83 And their decision upon his head shall be an end of controversy concerning him.

84 Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and in solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.
There are none that are exempted. The leaders are not above the law and God gave the membership power to excommunicate the prophet.
It appears to me you have here made some assumptions which may not be valid.

1. You have assumed the seventies, twelve and first presidency have pre-determined a persons guilt. You do not know this and it is a heavy accusation to throw around.
2. You have assumed that higher ups pressure local leaders to excommunicate. I have read of some limited pressure from general authorities to hold a court but I have not read of pressure to excommunicate.
Perhaps I should have worded that a little differently. I do not know for sure they are doing this but I have seen many instances of people claiming this is happening. Keep in mind this was given in response to your comment that members would be ok with the hierarchy investigating and initiating disciplinary courts as long they were not acting in secret. My response was stating why it would still be wrong.

Amonhi
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by Amonhi »

DrJones wrote:Doctrine & Covenants 112:
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

27 Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord.
Thus we read that there will be a cleansing by the LORD; and for us, " see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord."

And then, in the same section, the Lord's warning to the fifteen:

30 For unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time, in the which is the dispensation of the fulness of times,

31 Which power you hold, in connection with all those who have received a dispensation at any time from the beginning of the creation;

32 For verily I say unto you, the keys of the dispensation, which ye have received, have come down from the fathers, and last of all, being sent down from heaven unto you.

33 Verily I say unto you, behold how great is your calling. Cleanse your hearts and your garments, lest the blood of this generation be required at your hands.
Clearly they have the keys and a heavy charge -- and the Lord is watching over.
Great Comments Dr. Jones! Point well taken. I believe you have studied the subject of the cleansing, although I am not certain to what degree you would say you have studied it as compared with the average member...hmm, not a good reference point as I don't think the average member even believes it... lol, so your way ahead of the game! lol. Let's say that you have likely studied this more than I have.

From that vantage point, and respecting your opinion on the matter, how would you say the cleansing will take place? Natural disaster or pestilence, war from foreign entity like the Lamanites against the wicked Nephites, etc?

Thanks,
Amonhi

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BroJones
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by BroJones »

From that vantage point, and respecting your opinion on the matter, how would you say the cleansing will take place? Natural disaster or pestilence, war from foreign entity like the Lamanites against the wicked Nephites, etc?

Thanks,
Amonhi
Google "John Taylor's Vision", President John Taylor. Interesting, though, while he describes the disaster hitting SLC and adjacent cities, he does not say what will be the proximate cause of the cleansing (that I can discern). But he's very graphic about WHAT takes place, also the apostasy among church members (over 50%).

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Jeremy
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by Jeremy »

Matthew.B wrote:It's a lie told in a desperate attempt to save face. That's how I reconcile it. The liars probably justify it as "lying for the Lord".

There is one other possibility: the PR people who wrote the news release are ignorant of the facts and believe what they wrote is the truth. In my opinion, that possibility bodes worse for the state of Church affairs, so I favor my first explanation.
This reminded me of things like:
Dallin Oaks - April 2008 wrote:Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.
Some might read this as if it suggests that we should testify of what we want to believe so that we will believe it. This doesn't seem very honest. Especially when the culture encourages the use of the word "know" rather than "believe".
To testify of something you don't have a testimony of is dishonest... and it may be a form of self-hypnosis. Though the ends might justify the means, knowledge is not obtained through this process.

Hiding facts about the history of the LDS church to protect the innocent is also not very honest. We are supposed to be able to choose. How can we choose when we are presented with fiction. How can we exercise faith sufficient to obtain knowledge when the belief we have is not true. In order for faith to be faith, the belief we are acting upon must be true.

This is unfortunately a pattern that is found throughout many LDS church issues. Many people feel lied to. They feel cheated. They feel manipulated and taken advantage of. I feel sad because of their pain. It is a valid and sincere pain. Those who say "they simply lack the faith" are absolutely correct. They simply did not have a faith based in truth...therefor it was not and never could be faith. Bearing testimony of things you hope to believe is not a way to obtain knowledge.

We need honesty and truth. Only then will we have the faith sufficient to build Zion.

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BroJones
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by BroJones »

Amonhi wrote: Great Comments Dr. Jones! Point well taken. I believe you have studied the subject of the cleansing, although I am not certain to what degree you would say you have studied it as compared with the average member...hmm, not a good reference point as I don't think the average member even believes it... lol, so your way ahead of the game! lol. Let's say that you have likely studied this more than I have.

From that vantage point, and respecting your opinion on the matter, how would you say the cleansing will take place? Natural disaster or pestilence, war from foreign entity like the Lamanites against the wicked Nephites, etc?

Thanks,
Amonhi
That said, I will try to answer you more directly - just my opinion, OK?
In Lehi/Nephi's dream, we have those partaking of the fruit of the tree of life (Jesus) and those approaching the tree by holding firmly to the iron rod.
Others are wandering in "strange paths" - these may leave the Way, certainly.

But the bulk of the people are INSIDE or approaching the great and spacious building (Babylon). Recent prophets have warned that LDS are found inside the building, and that not all mocking comes from outside the church (e.g., Pres. Packer Ensign, I think Aug 2010).

IMO -- it is those INSIDE or approaching the great and spacious building who will constitute the bulk of the great sifting/cleansing to come.
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TannerG
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

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TannerG
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Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by TannerG »

Jeremy wrote:
Matthew.B wrote:It's a lie told in a desperate attempt to save face. That's how I reconcile it. The liars probably justify it as "lying for the Lord".

There is one other possibility: the PR people who wrote the news release are ignorant of the facts and believe what they wrote is the truth. In my opinion, that possibility bodes worse for the state of Church affairs, so I favor my first explanation.
This reminded me of things like:
Dallin Oaks - April 2008 wrote:Another way to seek a testimony seems astonishing when compared with the methods of obtaining other knowledge. We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.
Some might read this as if it suggests that we should testify of what we want to believe so that we will believe it. This doesn't seem very honest. Especially when the culture encourages the use of the word "know" rather than "believe".
To testify of something you don't have a testimony of is dishonest... and it may be a form of self-hypnosis. Though the ends might justify the means, knowledge is not obtained through this process.

Hiding facts about the history of the LDS church to protect the innocent is also not very honest. We are supposed to be able to choose. How can we choose when we are presented with fiction. How can we exercise faith sufficient to obtain knowledge when the belief we have is not true. In order for faith to be faith, the belief we are acting upon must be true.

This is unfortunately a pattern that is found throughout many LDS church issues. Many people feel lied to. They feel cheated. They feel manipulated and taken advantage of. I feel sad because of their pain. It is a valid and sincere pain. Those who say "they simply lack the faith" are absolutely correct. They simply did not have a faith based in truth...therefor it was not and never could be faith. Bearing testimony of things you hope to believe is not a way to obtain knowledge.

We need honesty and truth. Only then will we have the faith sufficient to build Zion.
After a faith crisis that left my paradigm in shambles, I decided that I would only use the word "know" for things I really did know. The only things I really know are that God knows and loves me and that Jesus is the Christ.
Last edited by TannerG on July 8th, 2014, 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Cookies
captain of 100
Posts: 618

Re: How do you resolve this in your own mind?

Post by Cookies »

The First Presidency statement was so cryptic to me...
In God’s plan for the happiness and eternal progression of His children, the blessings of His priesthood are equally available to men and women. Only men are ordained to serve in priesthood offices. o.k. we already knew that? Are you saying that it will NEVER happen for women? Is this the answer? Nahh...this can't be the answer, it's not an answer! All service in the Church has equal merit in the eyes of God. We express profound gratitude for the millions of Latter-day Saint women and men who willingly and effectively serve God and His children. Because of their faith and service, they have discovered that the Church is a place of spiritual nourishment and growth.

We understand that from time to time Church members will have questions about Church doctrine, history, or practice. Members are always free to ask such questions and earnestly seek greater understanding. We feel special concern, however, for members who distance themselves from Church doctrine or practice and, by advocacy, encourage others to follow them. Oh, kind of like what Christ did?

Simply asking questions has never constituted apostasy. Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine.”They seem to have replaced "Principles of the gospel" (From the lds.org definition of apostasy) with "The church and it's faithful leaders" who is the church? Who is a faithful leader? Faithful to what?


It's almost like they purposely left it to us to interpret what it means. Perhaps the same tactic was also used by church headquarters, in the influencing (Not necessarily "coordinating" or "directing" but maybe?) of some excommunications. They simply provided information, then left it to the local leader to interpret it. (There could be more to it than that, but I wouldn't know.)

It makes me wonder what might be going on beneath the surface... :-?

His sheep hear His voice, right? The rest, not so much. It makes sense that a righteous leader would not wrongfully excommunicate. A righteous leader would involve the Lord, and I don't think the Lord would ask him to do that.

As for the wicked leader...

Being wrongfully excommunicated from a church, that claims to provide saving ordinances.....Is a lot like being completely innocent and "killed" at the hands of wicked men. Sound familiar?

It's all too much like the Saviors sacrifice to be coincidental to me.
This helps resolve it in my mind currently...

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