How do you resolve this in your own mind?

[AI2.0]

Decisions are made by local leaders and not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters. -

I see nothing that needs resolving in this statement. It is straightforward and is not a lie or even a half truth.

Decisions ARE made by the Bishop and his counselors in the case of a Bishop's court and the Stake Presidency and High Council when a court is held at the Stake level. Does anyone have a problem with this?

Next, those decisions are NOT predetermined. Those with some knowledge of the situation may go into it thinking that the person is guilty of the charges made against them and think they know what the likely outcome is, but if you truly believe that this church is directed by men called through revelation and that they rely on revelation as to the best of their ability, then you must give them the benefit of the doubt.

What I'm reading is that a number on this thread do not give them the benefit of the doubt, they've already cast judgement against Church leaders--and using the MormonCurtain and Steve Bensen as evidence??? Have we sunk that low that we cannot find any sources to corroborate that don't carry such a strong bias against the church? I say that if not, I would take this 'evidence' with a very large grain of salt. When judging evidence or the accuracy of information, ALWAYS consider the source.

Lastly, those DECISIONS are NOT coordinated. Once again, if you believe that these men are called of God and they take those callings seriously and truly try to love and serve the people in their congregations then you ought to give them the benefit of the doubt. They are not told what the decision will be by higher ups in church headquarters. Albeit, due to human nature, I will admit that Bishops/Stake Pres. are most likely influenced to lean in favor of GA's' concerns when information is forwarded to them--as I think is clear from the comments of some of the Bishops and Stake pres. who seemed unaware of their member's activities, but I do not believe they are told they must excommunicate the person in order to provide a 'rubber stamp' for a decision which was made by others outside the church court.

What I see is people who were excommunicated because they refused to stop their activities when their leaders asked them to. That is what did it, not their privately held beliefs. Publicly disseminating beliefs which are contrary to church teachings and encouraging other members to join their cause is definitely cause for concern and if the GA's and AA's are aware of potential problems they have an obligation and responsibility to apprise local leaders of the situation so that they can protect the doctrine and other members from apostasy. In both the case of Denver Snuffer and Kate Kelly, both refused to stop their activities, knowing full well it would cost them their church memberships.

Now if you all want to keep following a person who chose to separate themselves from the church rather than accept the decision of their leaders, you have that right, but I'd like to point out that this modern day 'cleansing' of the church apparently includes Bro. Snuffer and Sister Kelly due to their OWN choices and I'd hate to see others blindly follow them down the path that may ultimately lead them outside the CofJCofLDS.

[AI2.0]

The First Presidency statement was so cryptic to me...

In God’s plan for the happiness and eternal progression of His children, the blessings of His priesthood are equally available to men and women. Only men are ordained to serve in priesthood offices. o.k. we already knew that? Are you saying that it will NEVER happen for women? Is this the answer? Nahh...this can't be the answer, it's not an answer! All service in the Church has equal merit in the eyes of God. We express profound gratitude for the millions of Latter-day Saint women and men who willingly and effectively serve God and His children. Because of their faith and service, they have discovered that the Church is a place of spiritual nourishment and growth.

AI: You need to be careful of changing the tense. The statement was 'Only men ARE ordained to serve in priesthood offices. This is present tense and gives no indication of being either for or against future changes so it is unfair to claim that there is any suggestion that it means 'will never' happen.

We understand that from time to time Church members will have questions about Church doctrine, history, or practice. Members are always free to ask such questions and earnestly seek greater understanding. We feel special concern, however, for members who distance themselves from Church doctrine or practice and, by advocacy, encourage others to follow them. Oh, kind of like what Christ did?

AI: I think we need to state clearly that these people are NOT Jesus Christ. They are people like you and me. If they choose to distance themselves from the church because they trust in their own understanding more than the counsel of church leaders who have called them to repentance, I doubt they will be able to use that as justification. If you believe this is the Church of Jesus Christ then you will trust that if he wants changes made, he'll follow the prescribed pattern which he set up--he will work through the leadership he has chosen.

Simply asking questions has never constituted apostasy. Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine.”They seem to have replaced "Principles of the gospel" (From the lds.org definition of apostasy) with "The church and it's faithful leaders" who is the church? Who is a faithful leader? Faithful to what?

AI: The 'church' is the mainstream CofJCofLDS headquartered in downtown Salt Lake City. It's 'faithful leaders' are those men and women who have been called and set apart to serve in the church and do so honorably. If they are 'faithful' then they will live the precepts and principles of the gospel as outlined by the CofJCofLDS; in their private and public lives, and bear testimony that they believe in the teachings of the church, as outlined in the standard works of the church--the scriptures. They will be 'faithful' to that testimony and the teachings which they claim to believe and to preach.

This statement that was made is in response to people like Kate Kelly and Denver Snuffer who both QUESTION the validity of listening to or following the counsel of church leaders--in the case of Denver Snuffer, who at times has even seemed to question their faithfulness!

It's almost like they purposely left it to us to interpret what it means. Perhaps the same tactic was also used by church headquarters, in the influencing (Not necessarily "coordinating" or "directing" but maybe?) of some excommunications. They simply provided information, then left it to the local leader to interpret it. (There could be more to it than that, but I wouldn't know.)

It makes me wonder what might be going on beneath the surface...

His sheep hear His voice, right? The rest, not so much. It makes sense that a righteous leader would not wrongfully excommunicate. A righteous leader would involve the Lord, and I don't think the Lord would ask him to do that.

As for the wicked leader...

Being wrongfully excommunicated from a church, that claims to provide saving ordinances.....Is a lot like being completely innocent and "killed" at the hands of wicked men. Sound familiar?

It's all too much like the Saviors sacrifice to be coincidental to me.
This helps resolve it in my mind currently...

I find it offensive to compare the Savior's great atoning sacrifice to the selfserving choices of two individuals who felt it was more important to continue running websites, writing books, blogging, speaking etc; in order to save face in front of those who follow them. Kate Kelly and Denver Snuffer were not excommunicated wrongfully. Their priesthood leaders questioned their activities, held a court and determined that their activities were damaging to the church and the faith of the members and they must stop those activities to remain members in good standing. They chose to continue their activities and brought about their own excommunications. And once again, they are people and they were not sacrificed--they made a choice. They both chose their own way.

I understand clearly the seriousness of excommunication and hope that they will both see the error of their ways and one day receive their blessings once again. I also hope that others will not follow them out of the church--it is a bitter, miserable path.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

The First Presidency statement was so cryptic to me...

Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine.”They seem to have replaced "Principles of the gospel" (From the lds.org definition of apostasy) with "The church and it's faithful leaders" who is the church? Who is a faithful leader? Faithful to what?

This part is especially bugging me. This is a church of COMMON CONSENT (supposed to be run by the people) for one, and they have replaced God, with leaders and church. Doctrine is now decided by the leaders without allowing the spirit to determine our consenting or dissenting vote. IOW, "the thinking has been done for us".

A friend of mine just pointed this out to me:

"...the Church voted to add the section on marriage and government to D&C while Joseph was away (both written by Oliver Cowdery).. and [Joseph] said he wouldn't have wanted those in there but left them in because of the vote of the Church.

Joesph was not a "commander", he voiced what God told him, and allowed the people of the church to accept or reject it - AGENCY.

It seems that the rules have changed - but I don't remember being asked for my vote on this.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

It's been proven to be a lie over and over - in some cases, with audio and written proof. MANY cases have come out recently, and there are many from the past that utterly disprove that portion you underlined Amonhi. There are at least 6 untruths in that statement by the church. I'm sorry if that's not an unpopular statement to make, but sometimes the truth hurts. In this case, it probably hurts many members to realize false statements being purported by leadership.

This is an example of why we cannot rely upon the arm of the flesh; man is imperfect and fallible. If we trust in God and follow only God, it's easier to resolve these things when they come to light. The truth of all things is easier to embrace.

I was unaware that this has been "proven" and that there is written and audio proof. Could you please provide more information or some of these references?

Thanks,
Amonhi

Some of it is available to the public:

- like letters from Denver Snuffer's stake pres and information about the way it unfolded until they found a reason to accuse him - just like Abinadi.... all available on Denver's blog,

- an audio recording of Brent Larsen's interview with a 70 during his excommunication appeal has been made available to some people, but I'll have to find out if he wants it shared publicly yet or not, (his excommunication was initiated by the Strengthening the Members Committee),

- some of the events that took place with the September Six were not instigated by local leadership,

- Margaret Toscano's excommunication included transcribed "evidence" that could have ONLY been offered to the Stake President by church headquarters - as he would not have known about it,

- Melvin Fish was excommunicated by order of the Strengthening the Members Committee and his first Stake President - who would not excommunicate him, was removed immediately, and the next SP was told to enforce the excommunication - which he did,

That's a few off the top of my head.

[Cookies]

Only men are ordained to serve in priesthood offices[/u]. o.k. we already knew that? Are you saying that it will NEVER happen for women? Is this the answer? Nahh...this can't be the answer, it's not an answer!

AI: You need to be careful of changing the tense. The statement was 'Only men ARE ordained to serve in priesthood offices. This is present tense and gives no indication of being either for or against future changes so it is unfair to claim that there is any suggestion that it means 'will never' happen.

*I don't claim that, but I know several who do. They say that the answer is "No", (women will never receive ordination) and that "the answer is implied."

We understand that from time to time Church members will have questions about Church doctrine, history, or practice. Members are always free to ask such questions and earnestly seek greater understanding. We feel special concern, however, for members who distance themselves from Church doctrine or practice and, by advocacy, encourage others to follow them. Oh, kind of like what Christ did?

AI: I think we need to state clearly that these people are NOT Jesus Christ. They are people like you and me. If they choose to distance themselves from the church because they trust in their own understanding more than the counsel of church leaders who have called them to repentance, I doubt they will be able to use that as justification. If you believe this is the Church of Jesus Christ then you will trust that if he wants changes made, he'll follow the prescribed pattern which he set up--he will work through the leadership he has chosen.

*o.k. kind of like what Joseph Smith did then? ;)

Simply asking questions has never constituted apostasy. Apostasy is repeatedly acting in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its faithful leaders, or persisting, after receiving counsel, in teaching false doctrine.”They seem to have replaced "Principles of the gospel" (From the lds.org definition of apostasy) with "The church and it's faithful leaders" who is the church? Who is a faithful leader? Faithful to what?

AI: The 'church' is the mainstream CofJCofLDS headquartered in downtown Salt Lake City. It's 'faithful leaders' are those men and women who have been called and set apart to serve in the church and do so honorably. If they are 'faithful' then they will live the precepts and principles of the gospel as outlined by the CofJCofLDS; in their private and public lives, and bear testimony that they believe in the teachings of the church, as outlined in the standard works of the church--the scriptures. They will be 'faithful' to that testimony and the teachings which they claim to believe and to preach.

*Not everything in the scriptures is taught by the church. There are also "hidden mysteries" yet to be discovered and added to the handbook.

I find it offensive to compare the Savior's great atoning sacrifice to the selfserving choices of two individuals who felt it was more important to continue running websites, writing books, blogging, speaking etc; in order to save face in front of those who follow them.

* That's one way of looking at it. Unfortunately it's not black and white for some.
p.s. I Never stated whether I thought Denver or Kate were wrongfully excommunicated or not.

[freedomforall]

Has anyone stopped to think that because of the exponential growth of wickedness, dissent in the church and chaos all around...that the leaders are now telling members that if they don't want to follow the church, its leaders, to repent and keep the commandments, any road other than laid out in scripture can and will lead to excommunications?
No different than Book of Mormon times where dissenters ended up with their names being blotted out. Why is it so hard to see the comparison, the pattern, both for those following the set program in the church, and those who find fault and see fit to cause discord.
The Lord tells us, plainly, those things that irk him:

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 ¶These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

It is plain as day that Kate Kelly, Denver Snuffer, and many others have caused discord in the church.
Just what are wicked imaginations?
Just who is it that bears false witness and speaketh lies?
Did not Kate Kelly have a proud look?

We are told to be meek, lowly in heart, have a broken heart and contrite spirit, humble, repentant and Godly.
God says very plainly, "they who are not for me, are against me."

And check this out, it is extremely profound and has intense impact:

2 Ne. 10:16
16 Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

So who are the ones for God? Who are the Zion people; the pure in heart?

Does anyone see the ramifications here? Dissenters, those speaking evil against leaders, causing discord among members, seeking self fulfillment in wrong doing, etc. all stand in jeopardy of being in the whore of the earth. God lays out very plainly all the required attributes one must have in order to be one of His sheep. We choose which way we will go. We know the old, tired cliche, we can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink. Likewise, we can be given all the tools for salvation but God forces no one into heaven. Each person is required to work for it through effort and application, then and only then is God's grace sufficient to save.

[Matthew.B]

Has anyone stopped to think that because of the exponential growth of wickedness, dissent in the church and chaos all around...that the leaders are now telling members that if they don't want to follow the church, its leaders, to repent and keep the commandments, any road other than laid out in scripture can and will lead to excommunications?
No different than Book of Mormon times where dissenters ended up with their names being blotted out. Why is it so hard to see the comparison, the pattern, both for those following the set program in the church, and those who find fault and see fit to cause discord.
The Lord tells us, plainly, those things that irk him:

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 ¶These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

God must have hated John the Baptist, Alma the Younger, and Samuel the Lamanite too. Not to mention Ezekiel, Isaiah, Nephi, Jacob, et al. Oh, and Jesus too, who declared that His doctrine would bring not peace, but a sword to the earth.

Good to know God hates so many people.

[freedomforall]

Has anyone stopped to think that because of the exponential growth of wickedness, dissent in the church and chaos all around...that the leaders are now telling members that if they don't want to follow the church, its leaders, to repent and keep the commandments, any road other than laid out in scripture can and will lead to excommunications?
No different than Book of Mormon times where dissenters ended up with their names being blotted out. Why is it so hard to see the comparison, the pattern, both for those following the set program in the church, and those who find fault and see fit to cause discord.
The Lord tells us, plainly, those things that irk him:

Proverbs 6:16-19
16 ¶These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

God must have hated John the Baptist, Alma the Younger, and Samuel the Lamanite too. Not to mention Ezekiel, Isaiah, Nephi, Jacob, et al. Oh, and Jesus too, who declared that His doctrine would bring not peace, but a sword to the earth.

Good to know God hates so many people.

Isn't it though? Tares, yes, wheat...not so much.

[Matthew.B]

Good to know God hates so many people.

Isn't it though? Tares, yes, wheat...not so much.

Are you saying you honestly think God hates the tares?

This is a serious question.

EDIT: Typos

[Cookies]

Not in the spirit of contention, but as a sincere question for seekers of truth, I won't even provide my own thoughts on it unless asked or requested. I am interested in all three sides of the fence, (being 1- bias toward the Church, 2 -unbiased or neither looking for fault nor looking to support the church and 3 - biased against the church).

Amonhi, what are your thoughts?

[Jeremy]

Good to know God hates so many people.

Isn't it though? Tares, yes, wheat...not so much.

I know we have differences but I had no idea we worship different gods. Its no wonder you take the stance you do on C&E. Your god would never grant such a promise.

[Jeremy]

Q. Would it be possible for a man to exercise faith in God, so as to be saved, unless he had an idea that God was love?

A. He could not; because man could not love God, unless he had an idea that God was love, and if he did not love God, he could not have faith in him.

[Hyrcanus]

With regards to the Church not "directing" or "coordinating", this is largely a matter of perception. All the Church has to do to avoid meeting a technical definition of those terms is "notify" the leaders of a problem and then leave it to the leaders to act on the information, they may even provide some "council" to leaders unsure of what to do, but always coupled with a "follow the spirit". More broadly, this would fail a more generic test of what qualifies as directed or coordinated, but a faithful member was a few millimeters of room on each side to squeeze in.

This all gets further complicated by the fact that we don't have all the details. We have a partial recounting by some members. No documentation from the Church or the local leaders. This means that we have to rely on people to accurately relate what their local leaders have said, and then further rely on their local leaders to have accurately reflected the churches position/statements. Then we each have to choose how we're going to interpret what we've heard, just as every preceding person in the chain of information had to do. Unwinding all of that to say definitively that the Church ordered X to be excommunicated is pretty near impossible.

A quick anecdote to put the latter bit in a bit of context. I was in a minor management role at a retail store shortly after my mission. The Store Manager was on vacation and the District Manager called me about an issue with one of our employees. She told me to talk to the employee and take care of it. I called the employee into the back of the store, talked to him about what happened and told him we were letting him go because our District Manager said we needed to. In retrospect, that wasn't exactly what she told me to do, and she may not have intended her instruction to convey that. At the time though I felt substantial pressure to make the correct decision and cared more about not upsetting the District Manager then I did a part time employee.

It isn't a perfect analogy, but it highlights some of the challenges in these types of situations.

All of that said, I have a strong preference for the Church being more transparent. I only think it would help. Joseph Smith probably started the trend towards less transparency early on (in part to avoid reprisals) when he excommunicated various malcontents and apostates, however good that reason was originally, it isn't a good reason to continue it today.

[freedomforall]

Good to know God hates so many people.

Isn't it though? Tares, yes, wheat...not so much.

Are you saying you honestly think God hates the tares?

This is a serious question.

EDIT: Typos

It was your words "Good to know God hates so many people." in a sarcastic tone. Wasn't this statement attacking the teachings in the bible? Can the words be understood to mean other than what they tell us?

God does not hate the tares, but here is his plan.

D&C 101:66
66 While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire.

D&C 38:12
12 Which causeth silence to reign, and all eternity is pained, and the angels are waiting the great command to reap down the earth, to gather the tares that they may be burned; and, behold, the enemy is combined.

D&C 63:34 (33–34)
33 I have sworn in my wrath, and decreed wars upon the face of the earth, and the wicked shall slay the wicked, and fear shall come upon every man;
34 And the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of my Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire.

[freedomforall]

Good to know God hates so many people.

Isn't it though? Tares, yes, wheat...not so much.

I know we have differences but I had no idea we worship different gods. Its no wonder you take the stance you do on C&E. Your god would never grant such a promise.

Have you read what God is going to do with the tares?

[freedomforall]

Good to know God hates so many people.

Isn't it though? Tares, yes, wheat...not so much.

I know we have differences but I had no idea we worship different gods. Its no wonder you take the stance you do on C&E. Your god would never grant such a promise.

Have you read what God is going to do with the tares?
I am all for C&E. What doesn't sit right is all the while claiming to being part of, the LDS church gets trampled on, its leaders mocked, and the Church of the Firstborn is treated like some type of exclusive club.
I'm not the only one that has picked up on this either.

[freedomforall]

Good to know God hates so many people.

Isn't it though? Tares, yes, wheat...not so much.

I know we have differences but I had no idea we worship different gods. Its no wonder you take the stance you do on C&E. Your god would never grant such a promise.

Have you read what God is going to do with the tares? Or are your scriptures different than mine. My God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. And He says the tares will be burned.
I am all for C&E. What doesn't sit right is all the while claiming to being part of, the LDS church gets trampled on, its leaders mocked, and the Church of the Firstborn is treated like some type of exclusive club.
I'm not the only one that has picked up on this either.

[Jeremy]

Have you read what God is going to do with the tares?

Yes, I have. But I missed the part that suggests this action is a reflection of hate towards them. Admittedly I should read more.

[Matthew.B]

It was your words "Good to know God hates so many people." in a sarcastic tone.

Well, you're right. I should be less sarcastic, and my comment was where the miscommunication began. Mea culpa, friend.

[freedomforall]

It was your words "Good to know God hates so many people." in a sarcastic tone.

Well, you're right. I should be less sarcastic, and my comment was where the miscommunication began. Mea culpa, friend.

Actually it is kind of frightening. Although God loves all of us, He will show his wrath against the wicked, those who comprise the whore of all the earth. And the saints will hardly escape:

D&C 63:34 (33–34)
33 I have sworn in my wrath, and decreed wars upon the face of the earth, and the wicked shall slay the wicked, and fear shall come upon every man;
34 And the saints also shall hardly escape; nevertheless, I, the Lord, am with them, and will come down in heaven from the presence of my Father and consume the wicked with unquenchable fire.

And here is the great division between the church of the lamb and the church of the devil:

1 Nephi 14:10
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

Here, we see just who is a part of the whore of all the earth:

2 Nephi 10:16
16 Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

So whatever mankind wants to call God's wrath, the whore, the mother of abominations is in deep trouble.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

It's been proven to be a lie over and over - in some cases, with audio and written proof. MANY cases have come out recently, and there are many from the past that utterly disprove that portion you underlined Amonhi. There are at least 6 untruths in that statement by the church. I'm sorry if that's not an unpopular statement to make, but sometimes the truth hurts. In this case, it probably hurts many members to realize false statements being purported by leadership.

This is an example of why we cannot rely upon the arm of the flesh; man is imperfect and fallible. If we trust in God and follow only God, it's easier to resolve these things when they come to light. The truth of all things is easier to embrace.

I was unaware that this has been "proven" and that there is written and audio proof. Could you please provide more information or some of these references?

Thanks,
Amonhi

More info regarding the excommunication of Avraham Giliadi here:

http://mormonstories.org/christine-jepp ... m-jeppsen/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With the recent statements by the LDS church stating that upper level leaders do not get involved in local discipline, the recent leaking of a segment of the memoirs of a 70 (Malcolm Jeppsen) who was responsible for Avraham Gileadi's excommunication in the 90s is yet another evidence that this statement is a bold face lie. Also, yet another example (Michael Quinn's and Denver Snuffer's being others) of an unwilling stake president being released because they will not comply with the edict of the strengthening the members committee. - Rob Smith

“In October of this year another challenge presented itself concerning a brother who lived in the Salem Stake. His Stake President was President Randall Gibbs, an oral surgeon. The man had studied for a year in Jerusalem and then placed himself up as a “Jewish Scholar,” and became a true priest crafter. He would go up and down the state giving lectures on the end of the earth, etc., for $50 admission fee. He wrote a book entitled “The Last Days,” and that’s how I got involved. The Ensign was going to print a chapter of his book, which became immensely popular, as an article in the magazine.

I was serving on the Correlation Committee of the Church at the time, and our committee looks at everything the Church publishes, even music it sings or letters written by headquarters or anyone else, etc. The chapter was obvious false doctrine. We disapproved it, and even contacted the members of the Twelve whose responsibility was Deseret Book, and they agreed it was false doctrine.

…

His stake president was not interested in doing much about the problem. I prodded him two times and actually gave him a copy of a report from the correlation committee outlining his false doctrines that he was teaching. On his third visit to my office he thanked me for my counsel and was leaving when I put my arm around him and said “We’re short on counsel in this office but long on direction. I’m directing you to take action to correct or else excommunicate this man. He cannot be allowed to be teaching what he is teaching and remain a member of the Church.”

Still nothing happened, so he was released as a stake president. The new one called was a professor at BYU by the name of Leaun Otten. He was appraised of the problem, and moved to correct it quickly. I gave him permission to use his regional representative in any fashion he wanted, to cross boundaries of responsibility, and gather whatever evidence he felt he needed.

…

Let me just tell you what happened on the other side of the telephone call I made. President Otten came home from work that day really troubled about this disciplinary council he was going to conduct on this brother the following evening because of only having one witness. He even said to his wife I’ve had the feeling that my Area President is going to call me with another witness, and had barely said it when the phone call from me rang through. When I went to talk to President Otten on the telephone he didn’t answer. I was wondering what was the matter, when it finally dawned on me that he was in tears. He finally got out, through his crying, the statement :” President Jeppsen, we know who runs this Church don’t we”? To which I agreed we did.

I went to the meeting of the First Presidency and the Twelve that morning being held in the upper room of the temple where we were always invited to meet with them, also the first Thursdays of each month, and reported directly to them what had happened. They were most interested in learning of this incident."

[TannerG]

President Jeppsen, we know who runs this Church don’t we”? To which I agreed we did.

What does that mean?

[farfromhome]

1. This "Jewish scholar" == are they referring to Avraham Gileadi?
2. So are these "memoirs" of Elder Jeppson? where are they available?
3. Interesting that Avraham was re-instated and his excommunication "expunged".
4. Jeppson:

"He finally got out, through his crying, the statement :” President Jeppsen, we know who runs this Church don’t we”? To which I agreed we did."

That would be the President of the church, then? or who? given that Avraham's excommunication was admittedly a mistake that was corrected.