Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

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Daryl
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by Daryl »

keep the faith wrote:
I think Elder Holland is telling us that we are entering the final turn and the finish line is in sight. Satan will use every method available to him to throw us off the path and get us distracted or abused as we dig for that final sprint to the line. Our discipleship will require that we live our covenants with exactness and stay committed to the work and mission of the restored church to rescue any soul willing to submit their will to the Father. It is not a time for the weak-hearted or the murmurer. They will collapse from the pressures brought to bear upon them. I am thankful for special witnesses who see things as they really are and stand as witnesses of the Saviors delivering hand. It is a great blessing to have them among us to give us strength and courage.
It will be to the peril of millions who made assumptions based on tradition. None of these men claim to have witnessed Christ. To assert that they have is speaking vanity against the Lord at best, bordering blasphemy at worst. When they clearly state that they have received Christ and are witnesses of his resurrected body (which is the true definition of an apostle), I will believe them. Until then they are and you are wordsmithing people into a damning tradition.

samizdat
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by samizdat »

Daryl wrote:
keep the faith wrote:
I think Elder Holland is telling us that we are entering the final turn and the finish line is in sight. Satan will use every method available to him to throw us off the path and get us distracted or abused as we dig for that final sprint to the line. Our discipleship will require that we live our covenants with exactness and stay committed to the work and mission of the restored church to rescue any soul willing to submit their will to the Father. It is not a time for the weak-hearted or the murmurer. They will collapse from the pressures brought to bear upon them. I am thankful for special witnesses who see things as they really are and stand as witnesses of the Saviors delivering hand. It is a great blessing to have them among us to give us strength and courage.
It will be to the peril of millions who made assumptions based on tradition. None of these men claim to have witnessed Christ. To assert that they have is speaking vanity against the Lord at best, bordering blasphemy at worst. When they clearly state that they have received Christ and are witnesses of his resurrected body (which is the true definition of an apostle), I will believe them. Until then they are and you are wordsmithing people into a damning tradition.
Negative, Daryl. They have made it plain as day, for those who listen with the Spirit and not with natural man's ears.

Because it is the natural man who does not comprehend the things of God, which would cause them to make fun of God...

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Daryl
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

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keep the faith, are you paid by the church in any way?

e-eye
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by e-eye »

Daryl wrote:
keep the faith wrote:
I think Elder Holland is telling us that we are entering the final turn and the finish line is in sight. Satan will use every method available to him to throw us off the path and get us distracted or abused as we dig for that final sprint to the line. Our discipleship will require that we live our covenants with exactness and stay committed to the work and mission of the restored church to rescue any soul willing to submit their will to the Father. It is not a time for the weak-hearted or the murmurer. They will collapse from the pressures brought to bear upon them. I am thankful for special witnesses who see things as they really are and stand as witnesses of the Saviors delivering hand. It is a great blessing to have them among us to give us strength and courage.
It will be to the peril of millions who made assumptions based on tradition. None of these men claim to have witnessed Christ. To assert that they have is speaking vanity against the Lord at best, bordering blasphemy at worst. When they clearly state that they have received Christ and are witnesses of his resurrected body (which is the true definition of an apostle), I will believe them. Until then they are and you are wordsmithing people into a damning tradition.
And then there are those who say they have seen Christ but lie or are deceived. I follow the spirit. The Lord works through prophets and we have 15, I sustain them and when they speak with the spirit and I listen with the spirit great have been the blessings in my life.

There are many false prophets which is no surprise or shouldn't be as it is the last days.

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Daryl
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

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samizdat wrote: Negative, Daryl. They have made it plain as day, for those who listen with the Spirit and not with natural man's ears.

Because it is the natural man who does not comprehend the things of God, which would cause them to make fun of God...
So which is it? Plain as day? or Listen with the spirit? Last I checked the natural man could still see plain as day.

To me, this is plain, clear, concise and plain as day:
“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23).
Why do you attribute an experience to these brethren that they are themselves hesitant to testify of? Why would you put yourself in jeopardy that way?

samizdat, are you paid by the church in any way?

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Daryl
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

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keep the faith, are you paid by the church in any way?

keep the faith
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by keep the faith »

Daryl wrote:keep the faith, are you paid by the church in any way?

Only in the multiple blessings that membership affords me. I am however a secret agent though. Have a decoder ring and other cool spy things that I cant disclose in a public forum unless you give me the secret password. How about you Daryl. Whats your story? Still a member of the church? What has caused you to look at it and its leaders with such an unfavorable negative attitude? Did you get offended by someone?

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Daryl
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

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keep the faith wrote:
Daryl wrote:keep the faith, are you paid by the church in any way?

Only in the multiple blessings that membership affords me. I am however a secret agent though. Have a decoder ring and other cool spy things that I cant disclose in a public forum unless you give me the secret password. How about you Daryl. Whats your story? Still a member of the church? What has caused you to look at it and its leaders with such an unfavorable negative attitude? Did you get offended by someone?
Yes, I'm still a member of the church. I don't agree with everything the leaders teach. I don't at all believe the "follow the prophet" mentality in the church - it is a major stumbling block for the saints. I had lunch with a fellow in my ward yesterday who claims he was about to fall away into inactivity last fall, but he heard me speak in sacrament meeting and was encouraged that someone with a testimony like mine was in the ward - so he returned to activity.

No, not offended per se. I choose to see the brethren for what they are, business men who can deliver sermons twice a year (and ball their eyes out on command). I choose to not attribute experiences and status to these men when they are reluctant to make the claims themselves. Receiving the testimony of the Lord in the flesh is by definition what makes an apostle. And once an apostle has had that experience, he is bound by the laws of heavens to clearly state having that experience. These men have not and do not. They feign. It sickens me. Then they teach that these types of experiences "are too sacred to share". Utter tripe and again a major stumbling block for the saints.

I have had enough of my own experiences and gained enough knowledge to know that what I see is not men who are witnesses of Christ in the flesh. If they had, they would not encumber their speech about it on pain of severe penalty. Instead they feign the experience. Anyone who is honest with themselves would recognize that.

sixpacktr
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by sixpacktr »

Daryl wrote:
keep the faith wrote:
Daryl wrote:keep the faith, are you paid by the church in any way?

Only in the multiple blessings that membership affords me. I am however a secret agent though. Have a decoder ring and other cool spy things that I cant disclose in a public forum unless you give me the secret password. How about you Daryl. Whats your story? Still a member of the church? What has caused you to look at it and its leaders with such an unfavorable negative attitude? Did you get offended by someone?
Yes, I'm still a member of the church. I don't agree with everything the leaders teach. I don't at all believe the "follow the prophet" mentality in the church - it is a major stumbling block for the saints. I had lunch with a fellow in my ward yesterday who claims he was about to fall away into inactivity last fall, but he heard me speak in sacrament meeting and was encouraged that someone with a testimony like mine was in the ward - so he returned to activity.

No, not offended per se. I choose to see the brethren for what they are, business men who can deliver sermons twice a year (and ball their eyes out on command). I choose to not attribute experiences and status to these men when they are reluctant to make the claims themselves. Receiving the testimony of the Lord in the flesh is by definition what makes an apostle. And once an apostle has had that experience, he is bound by the laws of heavens to clearly state having that experience. These men have not and do not. They feign. It sickens me. Then they teach that these types of experiences "are too sacred to share". Utter tripe and again a major stumbling block for the saints.

I have had enough of my own experiences and gained enough knowledge to know that what I see is not men who are witnesses of Christ in the flesh. If they had, they would not encumber their speech about it on pain of severe penalty. Instead they feign the experience. Anyone who is honest with themselves would recognize that.
so, I'm assuming you don't currently hold a temple recommend? I don't know how you could if you don't believe that the keys are held by 15 'businessmen (who) ball their eyes out on command'...

Interesting comment on Denver Snuffer. I guess he too wasn't to enamored with the leadership of the church? Taught that they had not seen Christ?

Wow, again, if the church is so messed up and being led by charlatans, why do you all hang around? Why not go off in search for those that preach the truth and align yourselves with them? Or do you somehow, deep down, know you are rebelling, but, like Korihor, like the attention and the kudos you get for teaching that which pleases the carnal mind?

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sonofliberty
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by sonofliberty »

Daryl wrote:
Receiving the testimony of the Lord in the flesh is by definition what makes an apostle. And once an apostle has had that experience, he is bound by the laws of heavens to clearly state having that experience. These men have not and do not. They feign. It sickens me. Then they teach that these types of experiences "are too sacred to share". Utter tripe and again a major stumbling block for the saints.
Right ... because Christ Himself always spoke boldly and plainly. He never used parables or metaphors when He spoke in order to prevent casting pearls before swine.

samizdat
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by samizdat »

Daryl wrote:
samizdat wrote: Negative, Daryl. They have made it plain as day, for those who listen with the Spirit and not with natural man's ears.

Because it is the natural man who does not comprehend the things of God, which would cause them to make fun of God...
So which is it? Plain as day? or Listen with the spirit? Last I checked the natural man could still see plain as day.

To me, this is plain, clear, concise and plain as day:
“And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!

“For we saw him” (D&C 76:22–23).
Why do you attribute an experience to these brethren that they are themselves hesitant to testify of? Why would you put yourself in jeopardy that way?

samizdat, are you paid by the church in any way?
President Packer wasn't hesitant to say what he said in the last conference. He said, plain as day, THEIR WORDS ARE MY WORDS.

Listening to Elder Hollands last talks from now back about five or six years or so, it is also clear as day to me that he has seen Christ.

President Eyring also has testified of having seen Christ.

There are other witnesses as well. But there are many reasons why many of these witnesses aren't as clear as day.

In these days we have too many scoffers, both in and out of the Church. I don't blame you Daryl, I blame those who have the FTP mentality without asking God for themselves.

I found it instructive that President Uchtdorf in the last conference said that we need to have the gratitude of Nephi, Joseph Smith, Job, and the Pioneers.

We have bunches of Sams in the Church, and a few Lamans and Lemuels. We don't have many Nephis. What did Nephi do that Sam didn't? He listened to Lehi and then prayed to God to know of the truthfulness of the message and what was being taught.


You also asked me if I am paid by the Church. Nope. Though, I have obtained many blessings through my conversion to the Church. Does it have mistakes or errors? Yes. Do these errors affect my testimony of what I know to be true? No.

samizdat
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by samizdat »

In the last post, I will say this:

A NEPHI in the Church is one who follows the counsels of the prophets and leaders, but then ask God to know of the truthfulness of the message and to try to get other things out of the message that aren't very apparent. Example what Nephi had with the Tree of Life vision of Lehi. I say that at the most 20 percent of the ACTIVE members of the Church fall into this category.

A SAM in the Church is one who follows the counsels of the prophets and leaders. Generally a good guy, but prone to disappointment when he sees where the prophets or leaders might be in error. What differentiates a SAM from a NEPHI is that NEPHI obtained his own testimony through prayer to God while SAM was content just to follow the counsels. That worked in Sam's day. It will not work in this day if what has been prophesied in this last conference and by other leaders of the Church, are correct. I would say that about 60 or 70 percent of the ACTIVE church members fall in this category, as well as 20 percent of the INACTIVES.

A LAMAN or a LEMUEL in the Church is one who disobeys the counsels of the prophets and leaders, or even one who might obey albeit grudgingly. They might not even be bad members of the Church, but are constantly looking for an excuse to faultfind. Many of them started out as Sams, but with quite a bit of disappointment started to distance themselves from the Church. Here you will find 10 or 20 percent of the ACTIVE church members, and 80 percent of the INACTIVE ones.

Every day I strive to be a Nephi. I invite others to do the same.

keep the faith
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by keep the faith »

Daryl wrote:
keep the faith wrote:
Daryl wrote:keep the faith, are you paid by the church in any way?

Only in the multiple blessings that membership affords me. I am however a secret agent though. Have a decoder ring and other cool spy things that I cant disclose in a public forum unless you give me the secret password. How about you Daryl. Whats your story? Still a member of the church? What has caused you to look at it and its leaders with such an unfavorable negative attitude? Did you get offended by someone?
Yes, I'm still a member of the church. I don't agree with everything the leaders teach. I don't at all believe the "follow the prophet" mentality in the church - it is a major stumbling block for the saints. I had lunch with a fellow in my ward yesterday who claims he was about to fall away into inactivity last fall, but he heard me speak in sacrament meeting and was encouraged that someone with a testimony like mine was in the ward - so he returned to activity.

No, not offended per se. I choose to see the brethren for what they are, business men who can deliver sermons twice a year (and ball their eyes out on command). I choose to not attribute experiences and status to these men when they are reluctant to make the claims themselves. Receiving the testimony of the Lord in the flesh is by definition what makes an apostle. And once an apostle has had that experience, he is bound by the laws of heavens to clearly state having that experience. These men have not and do not. They feign. It sickens me. Then they teach that these types of experiences "are too sacred to share". Utter tripe and again a major stumbling block for the saints.

I have had enough of my own experiences and gained enough knowledge to know that what I see is not men who are witnesses of Christ in the flesh. If they had, they would not encumber their speech about it on pain of severe penalty. Instead they feign the experience. Anyone who is honest with themselves would recognize that.

I would only ask you to examine your own heart here Daryl. Is it filled with charity toward all men? Joseph said that no man is qualified to judge the authorities of the church unless their own hearts were pure. Is yours pure? You speak of these apostles in very uncomplimentary and disdainful tones. You question openly about their integrity and veracity in standing as special witnesses of Christ. You judge their experiences as counterfeit of the laws of heaven and mockingly proclaim that their actions "sicken you" and are filled with "utter tripe". Now how would you feel if others around you addressed your spiritual experiences in that manner? Would you consider them as charitable and compassionate? Why would you mock the brethren with cynicism for guarding their sacred experiences? Joseph said to the 12:

"Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a manifestation, keep it to yourselves. . . . Do not watch for iniquity in each other, if you do you will not get an endowment, for God will not bestow it on such."

Joseph also covenanted the following with the 12 as relayed in a talk given by Hugh Nibley:

"I will not listen too [to] nor credit any derogatory report against any of you nor condemn you upon any testimony beneath the heavens, short of that testimony which is infal[l]ible, untill I can see you face to face and know of a surity. . . . I ask the same of you[!]"95 This was a peculiarity of Joseph Smith—to love and esteem people deeply, but at the same time be perfectly aware of all their terrible faults. "Brethren, I am not a very Pieus man," he said. "I do not wish to be a great deal better than any body else. If a Prophet was so much better than any body else was he would inherit a glory far beyond what any one else would inherit and behold he would be alone, for who would be his company in heaven."96 Then he added, "Righteousness is not that which men esteem holiness. That which the world call righteousness I have not any regard for. To be righteous is to be just and merciful. If a man fails in kindness justice and mercy he will be damed."97

Are you extending this same kindness and mercy in behalf of those men called to preside over this church in very difficult and demanding times? Is your heart drawn out in love and mercy toward these men in sustaining and upholding them in their duties? Are you giving them the benefit of the doubt in areas you have no first hand knowledge of as Joseph covenanted to do? Or are you falling into the trap of becoming an accuser of the Brethren? You decide.

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Daryl
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by Daryl »

KTF, I realize you are a master at twisting words and attributing indiscretions where there are none. So I won't dwell much on your words. Suffice to say, I am dissatisfied with the message, manner and delivery of the "special witnesses of the name of Jesus Christ." Perhaps if I were in there position I would do and say the same things. Thank God I am not. Since I am not, I find myself in the position as "card-carrying" member of the church to point out what I see amiss. And what I see is blatant. For those who fight against this clarity I sorrow.

Do I love these men who lead the church? Yes I do. Just like my eldest son whom I love very much and makes horrible life decisions, I love them. I would even say I am grateful for them taking upon themselves the mantel of leadership. Certainly I am grateful it's not me. But when I see these willful attempts to tug at heart strings by crying on demand, I get frustrated. I know too much to have any other response. So please forgive me if this offends your sensibilities. If you knew my heart, you would know that I come from a place of sincere knowledge.

There is no bandwagon in my town. (Though, perhaps one jackwagon.)

e-eye
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by e-eye »

sixpacktr wrote:Wow, again, if the church is so messed up and being led by charlatans, why do you all hang around? Why not go off in search for those that preach the truth and align yourselves with them? Or do you somehow, deep down, know you are rebelling, but, like Korihor, like the attention and the kudos you get for teaching that which pleases the carnal mind?


Many have no other place to go. No other church offers the truth's that they find in the LDS church and thus they have determined it must have been perfect when Joseph Smith lead it so they hang on thinking some prophet will show them miracles and speak to them about visitations restoring the church for Christ's return.

A big problem for those who find fault and expose imperfections of others at every whim can be because of personal sin.

One thing I have noticed is that there are many on here who are sliding down the slippery slope. They are becoming more bold in proclaiming the falling of the church. There are some reasons why they are still members but most likely will not be members for long as we are already starting to see and Joseph Smith himself and other prophets have warned us:

Joseph Smith -“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives"

Heber C. Kimball, while serving as a counselor to President Brigham Young, reported: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy"

Now it appears it's some badge of honor to be excommunicated for following a different prophet.

keep the faith
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by keep the faith »

Daryl wrote:KTF, I realize you are a master at twisting words and attributing indiscretions where there are none. So I won't dwell much on your words. Suffice to say, I am dissatisfied with the message, manner and delivery of the "special witnesses of the name of Jesus Christ." Perhaps if I were in there position I would do and say the same things. Thank God I am not. Since I am not, I find myself in the position as "card-carrying" member of the church to point out what I see amiss. And what I see is blatant. For those who fight against this clarity I sorrow.

Do I love these men who lead the church? Yes I do. Just like my eldest son whom I love very much and makes horrible life decisions, I love them. I would even say I am grateful for them taking upon themselves the mantel of leadership. Certainly I am grateful it's not me. But when I see these willful attempts to tug at heart strings by crying on demand, I get frustrated. I know too much to have any other response. So please forgive me if this offends your sensibilities. If you knew my heart, you would know that I come from a place of sincere knowledge.

There is no bandwagon in my town. (Though, perhaps one jackwagon.)

I am sorry if you consider my words to be unkind or twisting Bro. That is not my intent. I am sincerely concerned about your increasing negative tone directed at those who we sustain in the church as Prophets of The Lord. I have noticed over the past months in seeing your posts that your tone has become increasingly cynical and demeaning when it comes to the words and actions of those sustained in leadership positions. My experience over the years has been that those who lose charity and mercy toward their leaders eventually separate themselves from the saftey of the church.

Heber C Kimball, who was one of Josephs staunchest defenders against constant attacks leveled at the Prophet, related how important it was to not fall into the trap of becoming an accuser of the Brethren. He stated:

“I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.”

I can tell you that what Joseph said has been confirmed over the years many many times in the history of the church. I have seen people who were very spiritually hungry become embittered and eventual enemies of the church once they ignored that sage warning from Joseph and began to publicly cast aspersions toward the leadership and become more and more cynical of their high and holy callings.

I have been criticized before in bringing up those like Jim Harmstons bunch out of Manti but I can tell you from first hand experience that they were led away into apostasy because of their loss of confidence in the leadership and they felt the need to publicly condemn and critisize these leaders for those things they did not agree with. Eventually this caused division and separation and great hurt and damage among many families. Soon the adversary was wrecking havoc upon them and sinful behavior became a common occurance. All the while they were proclaiming to have had their calling and election made sure.

When I see individuals heading on that same path I will speak out and issue a warning voice based on my experiences and those of the leadership of this church from the early days of the restoration until now. No one is immune to these deceptive voices once they break that sacred covenant and begin to speak ill of the Lords anointed servants called and set apart to further his latter day mission. Breaking those covenants always has consequences. They are not positive consequences in what I have observed.

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Jake
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by Jake »

It would be awesome if just once, the merits of a post could be the subject of discussion rather than an attack of the messenger or letting the discussion devolve into Correlated vs. Uncorrelated. In an effort to look at the substance of what Daryl asked, I will take a crack at his questions.
The Cost—and Blessings—of Discipleship - Elder J. R. Holland

I testify that the true and living gospel of Jesus Christ is on the earth and you are members of His true and living Church, trying to share it. I bear witness of that gospel and that Church, with a particular witness of restored priesthood keys which unlock the power and efficacy of saving ordinances. I am more certain that those keys have been restored and that those ordinances are once again available through The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints than I am certain I stand before you at this pulpit and you sit before me in this conference.
What witness does Elder Holland have?
Unfortunately, Elder Holland has not shared the basis for his witness. I kind of get tired of the "I know" mentality of bearing testimony. Testimony is based on evidence. What is Elder Holland's evidence? Did the Holy Ghost tell him? Did he hear it from an angel? Did he have a vision? Without knowing the source of his witness, it's hard to consider it worthwhile or relevant. His office alone is NOT enough for a witness.

Has he made a claim of witnessing something that gives him knowledge about these things?
Not that I can see. True prophets declare the source of their witness (what did he see/hear/experience?)

What has he seen?
It doesn't matter if he doesn't tell us.

What is his particular witness of keys?
His "witness," if it can be called that, is that:
"Priesthood keys...unlock the power and efficacy of saving ordinances "
He is "more certain" that the keys (of performing saving ordinances) have been restored than he is certain he is standing there.


What keys is he claiming he has a witness of?
As Elder Holland says, "keys which unlock the power and efficacy of saving ordinances"

Is there a list of keys?
It depends on how you define keys. If you define them as the church does, there is no need to list them. All the keys are is the right to preside or officiate.

Why is he more certain of those keys than his and the audience existence?
He doesn't say, a common failing among LDS testimonies.

What is to be gained to be more sure of those keys than his current reality?
NOTHING!!! Being sure of keys means nothing. Being sure of your standing before God means a lot. I would be a lot more interested in hearing how Elder Holland feels about his standing before God.

Which keys are "those keys"?
They keys to perform saving ordinances.

Why the reference to him standing and them sitting?
I think you are implying that Elder Holland is trumpeting his office and presiding authority. I don't think so. I think he is just using the obvious fact of where he is and where they are to make a point. I would give him the benefit of the doubt. Notwithstanding his prophet worship, Elder Holland is a good man.

Is there a symbol or type in that conjecture?
I don't think so. Not in this case, anyway.

Do "pulpit" and "conference" indicate some hidden nuance we should discover?
I don't think so. Elder Holland is generally direct and plain spoken. I don't think there are any hidden nuances to his talk. Then again, I'm not great at reading between the lines.

Why was this portion of the talk backed with the most emotionally charged expression Elder Holland delivered during the talk?
I'm not sure why he is so emotional about keys and presiding authority, unless he expects that somehow he will be saved in some manner as a result of those keys. Second anointing??? I think I would trust the words of my Savior ahead of a ritual ordinance.

What's going on here?
The same thing that happens at every conference - a little bit of regurgitated testimony and a lot of false assumptions about doctrine. Just another talk with a fundamental misunderstanding of what "priesthood keys" really are.

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Daryl
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by Daryl »

Are you sincere when you say this:
keep the faith wrote:I am sorry if you consider my words to be unkind or twisting Bro. That is not my intent. I am sincerely concerned about...
Followed by this:
keep the faith wrote: your increasing negative tone directed at those who we sustain in the church as Prophets of The Lord. [attributing indiscretions where there are none.]

I have noticed over the past months in seeing your posts that your tone has become increasingly cynical [attributing indiscretions where there are none.]

and demeaning [attributing indiscretions where there are none.]

when it comes to the words and actions of those sustained in leadership positions. My experience over the years has been that those who lose charity and mercy toward their leaders [attributing indiscretions where there are none.]

eventually separate themselves from the saftey of the church.
I have done nothing wrong. I am simply expressing my dissatisfaction with behaviors. It is my opinion and I express it. You are in no place to judge and cast aspersions.

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TZONE
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Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by TZONE »

e-eye wrote:
sixpacktr wrote:Wow, again, if the church is so messed up and being led by charlatans, why do you all hang around? Why not go off in search for those that preach the truth and align yourselves with them? Or do you somehow, deep down, know you are rebelling, but, like Korihor, like the attention and the kudos you get for teaching that which pleases the carnal mind?


Many have no other place to go. No other church offers the truth's that they find in the LDS church and thus they have determined it must have been perfect when Joseph Smith lead it so they hang on thinking some prophet will show them miracles and speak to them about visitations restoring the church for Christ's return.

A big problem for those who find fault and expose imperfections of others at every whim can be because of personal sin.

One thing I have noticed is that there are many on here who are sliding down the slippery slope. They are becoming more bold in proclaiming the falling of the church. There are some reasons why they are still members but most likely will not be members for long as we are already starting to see and Joseph Smith himself and other prophets have warned us:

Joseph Smith -“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives"

Heber C. Kimball, while serving as a counselor to President Brigham Young, reported: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy"

Now it appears it's some badge of honor to be excommunicated for following a different prophet.
Helamen 13:28 Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.

29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?
You better find fault when your salvation is on the line.

adam333
captain of 10
Posts: 18

Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by adam333 »

It is so sad for people on here to assume that others do not have charity or are not a follower of CHRIST because they think that the 15 bretheren error in judgement or speak there own opinions. Everything that they say is not scripture. Period. To say that a Prophet cannot lead people astray is ludicrous. The only PERFECT MAN IS CHRIST. The whole purpose of a Prophet or an Apostle is to point to and testify of Christ. To help people to not trust in the arm of flesh and find out for themselves who is Christ and be able to come into his presence. Prophets are " types of Christ " and not Christ. I believe that they are all good men and doing the best that they can.

How can people believe in and stay in the " church " ( I use little c and not capital C because the LDS church is not the Church of the Firstborn = ZION ( although we are trying to ) , believe the book of Mormon, have a testimony of Joseph Smith and most important a belief in Christ. Simple. Because we believe the Prophets in the Book of Mormon when they say that they are weak, that they error. Joseph smith was always told by the LORD to repent and was receiving forgiveness. If you don't believe me, look in the D&C. If the Prophet Joseph was called to repentance in scripture, what makes the current GA's better than him. Brigham Young said that he himself wasn't a Prophet, that he was called of Joseph. They were all being honest. Easy to believe a person who is that. We all need to REPENT ( me included ) or our vanity and pride. We are just like Israel of old and the saints during the restoration that looked for a man to lead them and not CHRIST. Can't you all see that. It is as plain as day.

Do not Judge, for the same judgement that you use will be used against you. Do not say that I don't have a testimony of the risen LORD, or a testimony of the the Prophet Joseph Smith, or in the Book of Mormon, or that I don't understand or am being led astray. You may want to take a look in the mirror. Do not be like the rebellious Israel of old. Arise and take your place on the right hand of GOD. CHARITY, CHARITY, CHARITY.

e-eye
captain of 100
Posts: 585

Re: Elder Holland: "I am more certain that those keys..."

Post by e-eye »

TZONE wrote:
e-eye wrote:
sixpacktr wrote:Wow, again, if the church is so messed up and being led by charlatans, why do you all hang around? Why not go off in search for those that preach the truth and align yourselves with them? Or do you somehow, deep down, know you are rebelling, but, like Korihor, like the attention and the kudos you get for teaching that which pleases the carnal mind?


Many have no other place to go. No other church offers the truth's that they find in the LDS church and thus they have determined it must have been perfect when Joseph Smith lead it so they hang on thinking some prophet will show them miracles and speak to them about visitations restoring the church for Christ's return.

A big problem for those who find fault and expose imperfections of others at every whim can be because of personal sin.

One thing I have noticed is that there are many on here who are sliding down the slippery slope. They are becoming more bold in proclaiming the falling of the church. There are some reasons why they are still members but most likely will not be members for long as we are already starting to see and Joseph Smith himself and other prophets have warned us:

Joseph Smith -“I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives"

Heber C. Kimball, while serving as a counselor to President Brigham Young, reported: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy"

Now it appears it's some badge of honor to be excommunicated for following a different prophet.
Helamen 13:28 Yea, ye will lift him up, and ye will give unto him of your substance; ye will give unto him of your gold, and of your silver, and ye will clothe him with costly apparel; and because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, then ye will not find fault with him.

29 O ye wicked and ye perverse generation; ye hardened and ye stiffnecked people, how long will ye suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? Yea, how long will ye choose darkness rather than light?
You better find fault when your salvation is on the line.
I listened to conference did you? I didn't hear all is well in Zion. Where is Zion? When I listened to conference I heard great sermons on how to be more like Christ and avoid sin. Fault finding has never brought me closer to the Savior. When somebody makes a mistake running around on the internet does little to build unity and faith there is a channel for everything and I have faith in Christ and His Church which is on the earth today. The Church will be perfected but we (all of us) have a long way to go it's not just the 15, it starts with us as members.

Everybody knows there is only one who walked the earth that was perfect. I just don't try to point out the weaknesses of our leaders as I think the Prophet Joseph Smith spoke the truth.

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