Romans 1 - Homosexual activity

[Franktalk]

Romans must be read in the spirit or the message will be lost. I will comment on the whole of chapter one so the section on homosexuals will be in context.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So let us read the letter to the Romans in which the Holy Spirit through Paul lays out in detail the plan of salvation. But in chapter one Paul lays out how we are without excuse in seeking God. And he tells us what happens to those who know God yet turn away.

Romans 1

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the Holy Scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is interesting to note that Paul considers himself separated out for the gospel. To me it implies that many like him (a Jew) would remain under the Law of Moses. It appears that this dividing is an act of God.

Paul’s letter is addressed to those who are in Rome and are called of Jesus Christ and called to be saints. So we can see that this letter is for those who have already accepted Christ. But Paul also contrast the believers against those who turn away.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Now we see a dividing happen. It is obvious that faith has levels and the faith of those in Rome who have heard the call and answered that calling in faith have developed their faith to such a level as to separate out themselves from the rest of the world. So in essence these believers are ready to hear Paul’s words. We may all feel we are ready but just how much faith was Paul referring to in his letter? I think we will know if we are ready if the things in the letter make sense to us or we have already started the journey he will speak about.

9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

Here again Paul is referring to their level of faith. Their faith is such that Paul will receive comfort from them. Now even at this level of faith Paul states that he is desirous to impart to them some spiritual gift. He goes on to imply that they may be established to the end by the help of the spiritual gift. It is my belief that the rest of the letter is a detailed account of that spiritual gift. Yet that gift being of spirit can only be discerned with spiritual eyes. Those with carnal eyes will just see words on a page.

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Paul was led by the Spirit of God to go many places. He was also prompted to write many letters in which some are very difficult to understand teachings as laid out. In fact Peter states this clearly.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

What is most interesting is that the wisdom of Paul was given to him. In much the same way the wisdom of Solomon was given to him.

But how are we to know if we have the faith and spiritual wisdom that Paul speaks of? How can we know if we have spiritual eyes and can see the message of God? Don’t we need a measuring stick of some kind that allows us to measure ourselves? All of these questions are answered by Paul. We just have to read and understand what he was saying.

Roman 1

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Here is a statement which divides those who can see from those who can not. Those things of God that may be known are manifest to those who have the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith. So verse 20 is the test of your faith. Do you see the power of God in the creation? Or do you see the power of nature as defined by Darwin and science? Who tells you how to observe the creation around you? Are you listening to the Holy Ghost or do you listen to other men tell you how to view the natural world? Do you see the flood of Noah in the creation? Or do you listen to men who say there was no flood and the Bible must be allegorical when speaking of a global flood. Are the arguments of men more powerful to you than the obvious power of God as seen in the creation? Do you see with spiritual eyes or are your eyes dulled by the wisdom of the world? If you have allowed the world to be your guide how can the Holy Ghost be your guide? You can only serve one master. You can only have one guide. One guide takes you on a spiritual path; the other takes you on the carnal path of the world.

If you can not see the power of God in the creation how can you expect to see the message of God in scripture? So the verses that follow will only be understood by someone with spiritual discernment. But the explanation will seem foolish to those who are of the world. In the following verses Paul describes those who are still on the carnal path.

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Here is a list of things which the people of the world do as a result of embracing the world and not God. Many people say they love God and I am sure some do. But we are speaking of levels of faith. Paul writes about the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith. This is the faith required to avoid the corruption of the world.

We can also see in these passages that God will punish some on the earth because of their behavior. To be punished on the earth is much better than to spend some time being punished in the afterlife.

Now when we carefully examine verse 26 we see that God gave them up. He gave them up to be attracted to the same sex. But not attracted in love but attracted in lust. So some homosexual activity done in lust is a judgement of God. So how can we fight against the will of God? Should we not avoid judging any homosexual fearing that we may be interfering with a judgement of God? And what about a homosexual relationship centered on love and not lust?

In this thread I wish to explore homosexual behavior and how it relates to the scriptures.

[Simon]

Yes, we are never to judge, and yes, I actually believe some that are homosexuel will not burn at Christs coming whilst some will burn that attend church every week. But, and I say that in love and respect, I absolutely disagree with you on the rest. Two men can love eachother as Christ loves any man or women, but this has nothing to do with physical being attrakted to eachother.. And homosexuality is about being physicaly attrakted to eachother, you cant be homosexual and not feel lust for another men. God commanded us to be fruitful, and to replenish the earth.. God commanded that a man should love his wive as Christ loved the church. Most probably the temple will be defiled by the abomination of desolation.

Very difficult topic, and I had friends that were homosexual, and I love them as they were.

But what is your point? Do you say it is lawful before God to be gey as long as you dont live it? Do you say its okay as long as you love eachother?

With all respect, this is excactly what is so dangerous about teaching that once you keep the two great commandments, and have charity, you can do whatever you want. This is what I was talking about in all these posts about laws, and the two great commandments. Do whatever you want, its okay as long as you love God. Dont do what he says, but love him, and it will be fine.

Not my view, sorry.

[Elizabeth]

Franktalk, I totally disagree with the inference of your post. Brings to mind the misinterpretation of The Lord hardening Pharaoh's heart, when it was Pharaoh who hardened his own heart.
... there are places in the Bible where it is clearly indicated that on occasion the Pharaoh hardened his own heart
(see Ex. 8:32; Ex. 9:34) or simply that his heart was hardened—without it being attributed to the Lord (see Ex. 7:14, 22).

The JST reports “And Pharaoh hardened his heart, that he hearkened not unto them.” (JST, Ex. 7:13.)
In fact, the Inspired Translation is corrected systematically in all nine occurrences in this particular context.
(See JST, Ex. 4:21; JST, Ex. 7:13; JST, Ex. 9:12; JST, Ex. 10:1, 20, 27; JST, Ex. 11:10; JST, Ex. 14:8, 17.)
http://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/02/a-pro ... n?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SmallFarm]

I don't think that we should compel people by force to forgo homosexual relations. But I do think it's good to use gentle persuasion to convince them to re-examine their beliefs (as my parents did with me).

[freedomforall]

Romans must be read in the spirit or the message will be lost. I will comment on the whole of chapter one so the section on homosexuals will be in context.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So let us read the letter to the Romans in which the Holy Spirit through Paul lays out in detail the plan of salvation. But in chapter one Paul lays out how we are without excuse in seeking God. And he tells us what happens to those who know God yet turn away.

Romans 1

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the Holy Scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It is interesting to note that Paul considers himself separated out for the gospel. To me it implies that many like him (a Jew) would remain under the Law of Moses. It appears that this dividing is an act of God.

Paul’s letter is addressed to those who are in Rome and are called of Jesus Christ and called to be saints. So we can see that this letter is for those who have already accepted Christ. But Paul also contrast the believers against those who turn away.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

Now we see a dividing happen. It is obvious that faith has levels and the faith of those in Rome who have heard the call and answered that calling in faith have developed their faith to such a level as to separate out themselves from the rest of the world. So in essence these believers are ready to hear Paul’s words. We may all feel we are ready but just how much faith was Paul referring to in his letter? I think we will know if we are ready if the things in the letter make sense to us or we have already started the journey he will speak about.

9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

Here again Paul is referring to their level of faith. Their faith is such that Paul will receive comfort from them. Now even at this level of faith Paul states that he is desirous to impart to them some spiritual gift. He goes on to imply that they may be established to the end by the help of the spiritual gift. It is my belief that the rest of the letter is a detailed account of that spiritual gift. Yet that gift being of spirit can only be discerned with spiritual eyes. Those with carnal eyes will just see words on a page.

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.
14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.
15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Paul was led by the Spirit of God to go many places. He was also prompted to write many letters in which some are very difficult to understand teachings as laid out. In fact Peter states this clearly.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

What is most interesting is that the wisdom of Paul was given to him. In much the same way the wisdom of Solomon was given to him.

But how are we to know if we have the faith and spiritual wisdom that Paul speaks of? How can we know if we have spiritual eyes and can see the message of God? Don’t we need a measuring stick of some kind that allows us to measure ourselves? All of these questions are answered by Paul. We just have to read and understand what he was saying.

Roman 1

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Here is a statement which divides those who can see from those who can not. Those things of God that may be known are manifest to those who have the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith. So verse 20 is the test of your faith. Do you see the power of God in the creation? Or do you see the power of nature as defined by Darwin and science? Who tells you how to observe the creation around you? Are you listening to the Holy Ghost or do you listen to other men tell you how to view the natural world? Do you see the flood of Noah in the creation? Or do you listen to men who say there was no flood and the Bible must be allegorical when speaking of a global flood. Are the arguments of men more powerful to you than the obvious power of God as seen in the creation? Do you see with spiritual eyes or are your eyes dulled by the wisdom of the world? If you have allowed the world to be your guide how can the Holy Ghost be your guide? You can only serve one master. You can only have one guide. One guide takes you on a spiritual path; the other takes you on the carnal path of the world.

If you can not see the power of God in the creation how can you expect to see the message of God in scripture? So the verses that follow will only be understood by someone with spiritual discernment. But the explanation will seem foolish to those who are of the world. In the following verses Paul describes those who are still on the carnal path.

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Here is a list of things which the people of the world do as a result of embracing the world and not God. Many people say they love God and I am sure some do. But we are speaking of levels of faith. Paul writes about the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith. This is the faith required to avoid the corruption of the world.

We can also see in these passages that God will punish some on the earth because of their behavior. To be punished on the earth is much better than to spend some time being punished in the afterlife.

Now when we carefully examine verse 26 we see that God gave them up. He gave them up to be attracted to the same sex. But not attracted in love but attracted in lust. So some homosexual activity done in lust is a judgement of God. So how can we fight against the will of God? Should we not avoid judging any homosexual fearing that we may be interfering with a judgement of God? And what about a homosexual relationship centered on love and not lust? Homosexual behavior is not sanctioned by God in the least degree, it still falls under the carnal side of man which is Satanic. I mean, come on folks, can anyone truly assume that God has a male counterpart? Let's think outside the box, folks.

In this thread I wish to explore homosexual behavior and how it relates to the scriptures.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Verse 28 has been misinterpreted. God gave them up to the lusts of their own minds and because they wanted to walk in their own counsels and not God's. Read the first part of 28, it says so right there. PS 81:12 explains this.

Ps. 81:12
12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts’ lust: and they walked in their own counsels.

Also in verse 28 they were given over a a reprobate mind, meaning that they were worthless, unable to stand God's tests.
Then in verse 29-32 we understand what Paul is saying about these people and why God gave them up.

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death (spiritual death which is the second death), not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

To think or say that God condones sin in any form makes God a liar and a minister of sin. God does not allow sin in the least degree. Believe it.

Alma 45:16
16 And he said: Thus saith the Lord God—Cursed shall be the land, yea, this land, unto every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, unto destruction, which do wickedly, when they are fully ripe; and as I have said so shall it be; for this is the cursing and the blessing of God upon the land, for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.

Now does anyone think God allows homosexual behavior at any level? Not to mention encourages it because of disobedience and defiance of God's commandments?

[Franktalk]

Yes, we are never to judge, and yes, I actually believe some that are homosexuel will not burn at Christs coming whilst some will burn that attend church every week. But, and I say that in love and respect, I absolutely disagree with you on the rest. Two men can love eachother as Christ loves any man or women, but this has nothing to do with physical being attrakted to eachother.. And homosexuality is about being physicaly attrakted to eachother, you cant be homosexual and not feel lust for another men. God commanded us to be fruitful, and to replenish the earth.. God commanded that a man should love his wive as Christ loved the church. Most probably the temple will be defiled by the abomination of desolation.

Very difficult topic, and I had friends that were homosexual, and I love them as they were.

But what is your point? Do you say it is lawful before God to be gey as long as you dont live it? Do you say its okay as long as you love eachother?

With all respect, this is excactly what is so dangerous about teaching that once you keep the two great commandments, and have charity, you can do whatever you want. This is what I was talking about in all these posts about laws, and the two great commandments. Do whatever you want, its okay as long as you love God. Dont do what he says, but love him, and it will be fine.

Not my view, sorry.

There is too much personal opinion on this subject. It is obvious that if SSA is used as a judgement by God then something in the scriptures must be meaningful. Now is God using the norms of society and the aversion of the masses as a punishment? Or is the SSA inherent on its own as a punishment? I think we can say that there is a natural use of a man or a woman. But there are natural uses of many things.

And mixed with the above is the issue of lust or love. Can the same act be considered by God to be different based on intent of the heart? I would say yes. So can there be an act that God would say is vile and an act that God would not say is vile and the only difference is the intent of the heart?

Remember when Peter had a dream and a bunch of animals were presented to him? The animals were unclean. God said that they were not unclean and he was told to eat. So what was the message there? Can we take many sections of scripture and make sense of this subject? I don't have an answer to that question. But I do respect the many various opinions on this site. May be we can figure this out since the end is coming and all truth is coming out.

[freedomforall]

Yes, we are never to judge, and yes, I actually believe some that are homosexuel will not burn at Christs coming whilst some will burn that attend church every week. But, and I say that in love and respect, I absolutely disagree with you on the rest. Two men can love eachother as Christ loves any man or women, but this has nothing to do with physical being attrakted to eachother.. And homosexuality is about being physicaly attrakted to eachother, you cant be homosexual and not feel lust for another men. God commanded us to be fruitful, and to replenish the earth.. God commanded that a man should love his wive as Christ loved the church. Most probably the temple will be defiled by the abomination of desolation.

Very difficult topic, and I had friends that were homosexual, and I love them as they were.

But what is your point? Do you say it is lawful before God to be gey as long as you dont live it? Do you say its okay as long as you love eachother? If people engage in homosexual behavior, they do it at their own risk love or no love involved, it is sin before God, because GOD will not allow sin in the least degree.

With all respect, this is excactly what is so dangerous about teaching that once you keep the two great commandments, and have charity, you can do whatever you want. This is what I was talking about in all these posts about laws, and the two great commandments. Do whatever you want, its okay as long as you love God. Dont do what he says, but love him, and it will be fine.

Not my view, sorry.

Simon, know your scriptures, not the precepts of men. This doctrine is scary, and not of God. SSA in action is sin no matter how much one tries to make you think otherwise. We can love the sinner, but hate the sin. God says to abhor sin, right? We can encourage the sinner to cease and desist in such behavior, but if they refuse, God's justice takes over. It's all in Alma.

[Franktalk]

Now where in the New Testament does it say that SSA is a sin and we should cast these people out of the church? I have posted Romans 1 which in my mind sets up many more questions than answers.

Let us look at another judgement of God. When Jesus rode into Jerusalem and the Jews missed their day as described in Daniel they were placed under judgement. They would have spiritual blindness to the gospel (as a group) until the end times. So many Jews born since the gospel period have been born into God's judgement. Are we to shun the Jews because they can't see the message of God in the scriptures? How are we to react to the Jews we meet? Can we condemn a Jew because they can't see what is so clear to us?

In Romans we see that there is built into us a detector to see God in the creation. Even the power of God. But some say they don't see God at all. They embrace the natural man and set up nature as their God. Now in this case God says they are without excuse. Now does this mean there are excuses for other truths? Can this mean that those under judgement have an excuse for their behavior?

Now I have made many posts dealing with the law. For me the laws (the lessor laws) come and go. They are a way for God to prepare us for the next step of our understanding. But in dealing with the law we must have law breakers to exercise the law. Is it a natural thing for some to break the law or is God in some way making sure we experience all of the composite opposites we need?

[Thinker]

Romans must be read in the spirit or the message will be lost.

Yes, but which spirit, Frank?
Is it the spirit that wants to pretend evil is good because you have a child who has practiced homosexuality?

But how are we to know if we have the faith and spiritual wisdom that Paul speaks of? How can we know if we have spiritual eyes and can see the message of God? Don’t we need a measuring stick of some kind that allows us to measure ourselves? All of these questions are answered by Paul.

I don't consider Paul to be God. He's imperfect, like any of us.
I don't trust 100% in his words - nor in your interpretation of his words.

How are we to know about truth, Frank?
1. By studying it out (aka common sense that HONORS mother and father - both your own mother and father by which you came to EXIST - and also the means by which God allows us ALL to procreate - the role of mothers and fathers world-wide.
2. By praying about it - feeling the spirit - which will always be in harmony with the 2 greatest commandments... to love God & to love others as oneself. GOD IS LOVE.
What is love?
Is it making evil/harm out to be good/harmless? No!
Not only according to common sense (our existence) and scripture (Leviticus 20:13), but also according to the US CDC, the practice of homosexuality proves to be harmful - with high statistics of STDs, AIDS, and mental illness... Even in 2 healthy males that make believe that an anus (exit only) is an entrance in anal sex, have risks of anal fissures, anal cancer, colon rupture and bacterial infection.

Now tell me, Frank, considering all of the evil/harm that homosexual practices involves, is it loving to pretend that it is harmless?

[freedomforall]

Now where in the New Testament does it say that SSA is a sin and we should cast these people out of the church? I have posted Romans 1 which in my mind sets up many more questions than answers. In my mind, there are no more questions because your questions have been answered clearly and precisely. Didn't you read the explanation?

Let us look at another judgement of God. When Jesus rode into Jerusalem and the Jews missed their day as described in Daniel they were placed under judgement. They would have spiritual blindness to the gospel (as a group) until the end times. So many Jews born since the gospel period have been born into God's judgement. Are we to shun the Jews because they can't see the message of God in the scriptures? How are we to react to the Jews we meet? Can we condemn a Jew because they can't see what is so clear to us?

In Romans we see that there is built into us a detector to see God in the creation. Even the power of God. But some say they don't see God at all. They embrace the natural man and set up nature as their God. Now in this case God says they are without excuse. Now does this mean there are excuses for other truths? Can this mean that those under judgement have an excuse for their behavior?

Now I have made many posts dealing with the law. For me the laws (the lessor laws) come and go. They are a way for God to prepare us for the next step of our understanding. But in dealing with the law we must have law breakers to exercise the law. Is it a natural thing for some to break the law or is God in some way making sure we experience all of the composite opposites we need?

No one said that SSA is a sin. It is acting on that temptation that makes it sinful. Or even dwelling on it trying to find ways to commit sin that seems less noticeable. However, if a person afflicted with SSA does not dwell on it nor eventually falling prey to it is not committing sin. Let's make this clear right now. Temptation is not a sin...this is why Satan is here in the first place, so we can be tried and tested to see if we will fall prey to Satan or follow Christ. Without these two paths we have no agency, no way to act or be acted upon.
Apparently you don't read the posts of some people. And I say that for anyone reading into scripture that suggests homosexual behavior is alright with God...don't understand God very well.
The bible does not contain all truth, because much of it, namely, the plain and precious parts of the gospel...were removed by wicked people.
The Book of Mormon is very clear as to how and what sin does to any person engulfed in it. There is no way on God's green earth to justify homosexual behavior.
Romans 1 was also very clear that for anyone determined to break the commandments and live a carnal lifestyle is not right with God and God will let them suffer death of the spirit because of their own disobedience. In short, their succumbing to the chains of Satan drags them to hell. God will not stop it because of man's own agency. Having our own agency can be a dangerous thing if we do not seek Christ and His atonement, and turn away from carnal ways, thus being born again by the spirit and seeking righteous every day of our lives.

[Thinker]

Romans must be read in the spirit or the message will be lost.

Yes, but which spirit, Frank?
Is it the spirit that wants to pretend evil is good because you have a child who has practiced homosexuality?

But how are we to know if we have the faith and spiritual wisdom that Paul speaks of? How can we know if we have spiritual eyes and can see the message of God? Don’t we need a measuring stick of some kind that allows us to measure ourselves? All of these questions are answered by Paul.

I don't consider Paul to be God. He's imperfect, like any of us.
I don't trust 100% in his words - nor in your interpretation of his words.

How are we to know about truth, Frank?
1. By studying it out (aka common sense that HONORS mother and father - both your own mother and father by which you came to EXIST - and also the means by which God allows us ALL to procreate - the role of mothers and fathers world-wide.
2. By praying about it - feeling the spirit - which will always be in harmony with the 2 greatest commandments... to love God & to love others as oneself. GOD IS LOVE.
What is love?
Is it making evil/harm out to be good/harmless? No!
Not only according to common sense (our existence) and scripture (Leviticus 20:13), but also according to the US CDC, the practice of homosexuality proves to be harmful - with high statistics of STDs, AIDS, and mental illness... Even in 2 healthy males that make believe that an anus (exit only) is an entrance in anal sex, have risks of anal fissures, anal cancer, colon rupture and bacterial infection.

Now tell me, Frank, considering all of the evil/harm that homosexual practices involves, is it loving to pretend that it is harmless?

"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22

The way to love is not pretending evil/harm is good/harmless.
Homosexual practices prove to be harmful statistically... It is unloving to pretend otherwise.
Love is hoping and striving for what is best, healthy and good.

[Franktalk]

Yes, but which spirit, Frank?
Is it the spirit that wants to pretend evil is good because you have a child who has practiced homosexuality?

I would like to stick to the scriptures and how we interpret them. If you can not stay within those bounds please don't post here.

[Franktalk]

The way to love is not pretending evil/harm is good/harmless.
Homosexual practices prove to be harmful statistically... It is unloving to pretend otherwise.
Love is hoping and striving for what is best, healthy and good.

Statistically speaking all people should have died in a city, but Lot was saved.

[freedomforall]

Yes, but which spirit, Frank?
Is it the spirit that wants to pretend evil is good because you have a child who has practiced homosexuality?

I would like to stick to the scriptures and how we interpret them. If you can not stay within those bounds please don't post here.

What you really mean is for no one to confuse you with facts. If we do not agree with what you're saying stay away?
I think this is Brian's forum, or is it?

Brian says:
Be kind. No personal attacks. There is no reason to attack each other for differing beliefs, label others apostate, call to repentance, etc.

- No personal attacks or threats. No defamation of character, libel, slander, etc. No evil speaking of the "Lord's Anointed". If you cannot backup a claim made about another person your post may be deleted. (i.e. If you disagree with someone, "'attack' the message, not the messenger").

- No Trolling, flaming, spamming, baiting.

- No profanity. No inappropriate sexual content.

- Discussion of almost all topics is welcome, but promoting ideas and doctrine that are apostate and contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ will not be allowed.

So what does this really mean? Is promoting sin as something God condones contrary to the gospel? Or has the gospel of Jesus Christ changed for the Latter days.

[Franktalk]

....

No reference to the OP and no reference to scripture. Way to go. You sure made your case.

[jwharton]

Sorry I didn't answer sooner. This has taken me a fair amount of time to put together. I'd like to have done a better job and I haven't proofed it all that well. Please, be generous in overlooking my foibles in my attempt here.

I'll give somewhat of a picture of how I read Romans chapter 1. My language will sound matter of fact, but I wish to premise here once and for all: All that I share below here is merely my personal belief only, which beliefs are subject to improvement. I sincerely welcome any argumentation that can refute anything I propose here.

Since you already gave the introduction I'll skip that part and start up where Paul starts teaching the brethren in Rome.

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, ...

Paul is specifically speaking to his fellow priesthood brethren. This letter isn't meant for the masses. He is addressing the most advanced in the ranks of the priesthood. This is NOT a letter containing milk. This is meat.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Paul says those who hold the truth in unrighteousness are those who become the recipients of the wrath of God. There are different ways this can be looked at.

First, it could be those who hold the truth, meaning they are in possession of it and have an understanding of it. But, notwithstanding they understand it, they consider it as unrighteousness. This rejection of truth is what brings down the wrath of God.

Second, it could be those who hold and properly consider it righteousness but who are unworthy to hold it through their own personal unrighteousness. I'm not so sure this is the case Paul is intending to elucidate here, but this aspect could be present as well.

So, as this treatise continues, I am going to consider that Paul is speaking of those who have the truth of the Gospel in their possession, but who become deluded in their minds and become to consider it as unrighteousness. Thus, they merit God's wrath.

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Paul is saying here that God shows them their wickedness by way of manifesting it through themselves. What they could have seen to begin with, if they were truly sincere and had integrity to the truth given them by God, shall be impressed upon them in an object lesson. So, when all of the suffering and misery they brought upon themselves has gone on long enough, at some point they will wake up and see all of these perversions and be able to trace things back to their original roots and have their eyes opened. This process vindicates the truths they were given by God, but which they had rejected.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Paul is now bringing in a more specific context from which to shed greater light on what he is talking about. He reflects back to the time when the world was being created. He says by observing that which is made, or by observing that which manifests, gives you the ability to clearly see those things which are apparently invisible otherwise.

Paul emphasizes this because if in some way God doesn't make these things clearly visible and able to be understood, despite their hidden nature, then the people would be able to have an excuse. How can God condemn people for not hearkening to things that they cannot see?

So, by God dealing with the people in this manner, He leaves them without any excuses. He taught them His plan and His truth that they could have taken on faith and had complete success in, despite their inability to see it all clearly from the beginning. Instead, if they lack faith, they get to see in the end anyway, but they end up learning through their own misery and suffering that they bring upon themselves for their unrighteousness. This principle is at the heart of Eve's bitter/sweet lesson.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Paul is now speaking in explicit detail of what was revealed to him about what transpired when the foundations of the creation were being laid. He is speaking about a specific juncture of time in the past and at the same time he is prophesying that this part of the pattern shall repeat in the latter days when the foundations for the next creation are laid.

Paul is speaking of the period of time we consider to be the War in Heaven where Michael and his angels engaged in conflict with the dragon and his demons. Father allowed the adversary to go to and fro among His children and through due course of time there was a great polarization that took place. Paul is speaking specifically about those who were deluded into accepting Lucifer's plan over the Father's plan.

Paul is here addressing those who were in the pre-existence as spiritual beings who were in the presence of God, but evidently despite the fact that God was personally in their midst and they were acquainted with Him, their delusion reached such a level that they glorified Him not as God. Their own vain ambitions and their own pride had them riveted upon accomplishing the counterfeit agenda of Lucifer that God suffered them to be deceived by as a consequence of knowing and willfully rejecting His plan. Paul touches on this principle in 2 Thess. chapter 2 as well, only he is projecting it futuristically.

You can also put this in the context of Michael/Adam/Father, Eve/Mother, Lucifer/Cain/Man of Sin, Abel/Son of Man, etc. and touch upon these very same principles in that narrative. They all overlay with complete synergy, but that may be a bit advanced for the average reader because you have several pre-requisite keys necessary to decipher this with accuracy. The crux is Adam is far more significant than most realize.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Paul is speaking here specifically about those who succumbed to the delusions offered to them by Lucifer. Cain's sin stemmed from him becoming a law unto himself. And, in essence, if you take Cain as a flesh and bone being, he is the grouping of individual souls in the pre-existence who gravitated towards Lucifer's plan and unified as a distinct compact upon Lucifer's agenda. They were dragged carefully down to hell.

Just as Adam and Eve are said to be "many", meaning a being of flesh and bone that is composed of many members, Cain too is a composite being composed of many individual members. All of the spirits who were deceived by Lucifer and who acted in harmony one with another to carry out and advance that agenda are collectively the embodiment of Cain.

The narrative of Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Seth, etc. can be read with great precision and practical sensibility when you take those beings and view them more as a distinct social compact that has a common spirit and a common agenda. I use this distinction because Paul understood this key of decipherment, which gave him his ability to speak so authoritatively on these matters. For example, see Ephesians 5:30 where Paul indicates what a body of flesh and bone is.

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Paul really goes into some heavy meat in this passage. I am confident this verse puzzles the vast majority of people who encounter it. However, Paul is using this deliberately, knowing most people will be completely baffled by it.

The upside to that is once you do understand what he is talking about and share in using the same keys of decipherment with him, it confirms that line of interpretation in an unmistakable manner. I doubt I will successfully be able to bring the readers of this short treatise up to that level, but I will at least put forward some bits and pieces that will most likely have some gaps. I'm sorry for that. If this doesn't click, just brush over it.

Since Paul's context is when the foundations of the new creation were being laid out in the beginning, his use of symbols distinctly found in the creation account should jump out. He knows what is actually behind the meanings of these symbols. He speaks of God's image, man, birds, fourfooted beasts and creeping things. These are all distinct words that have an explicit place in the creation account. They all pertain to distinct groups of people who function at varying degrees of spiritual enlightenment.

Verse 23 is more or less a repeat of what he said earlier on. These people held the truth of God but instead of having integrity to the incorruptible God they digressed in a multitude of ways. They considered the image and glory of God to be a corruptible man and they slid even further down the spiritual glory scale to espouse the doctrines at the lesser evolved and more primitive notions of those represented by birds, fourfooted beasts and creeping things. In other words, they fell back to the lesser levels of enlightenment that preceded them and rejected the fullness of God's glory that they were given.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Paul is now going into the actual consequences that shall play out upon those who knew the truth but who rejected it and fell back to false traditions and precepts of men. When people are at a high level of enlightenment and reject it, they bring upon themselves a more perverse and degrading spiritual station.

In so many words, Paul is saying that there was a time in our world's history where rampant homosexuality began to manifest among a people who were once enlightened to a high degree but who ultimately rejected that light and truth and who then fell to an unprecedented low. Suffering men to burn in their lust for other men is a manifestation of God's wrath upon the people that is an indication that the people in the main have fallen.

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

The Pearl of Great Price in Moses 5:24 says Cain would be known as the father of lies due to being overcome by Lucifer's spirit and becoming deluded in his thinking to reject the Father's plan and substitute his own counterfeit plan. Thus, we get a significant tie in to the Cain/Lucifer profile here.

The basis of Luciferian doctrine is a secular humanistic perspective that puts an all-powerful elite class at the helm of a central control and command power structure where everyone beneath them is micro-managed. There is no regard for God. They completely interject themselves in the place of God and rule according to the creature perspective.

The seduction Lucifer uses is the false promise that if everyone builds up and cooperates with this system that their salvation shall be guaranteed. He will make absolutely certain that all are saved. It successfully capitalizes on people's ignorance of the truth and makes those who promote the truth appear evil while they themselves to appear good. In truth, it is a complete mirror image where good become evil and evil becomes good to them.

We also know Cain ultimately resorts to murder in order to further the usurpation of the Father's plan with his counterfeit plan. Those who insist upon remaining true and faithful to the Father's plan as originally laid out ultimately find themselves being murdered. In this manner, Cain became a murderer from the beginning and the father of lies.

To look at this another way and to tie it in with some of the parables of Jesus, what do the tares do to the wheat? They choke it out! The dichotomy prophesied to exist in the latter-day restoration and gathering puts the tares being gathered in with the wheat. Therefore, Paul is addressing how those who are profiled as tares became that way in the past and that shall become that way when it plays out all over again. The wheat are profiled as Abel and the tares are profiled as Cain. This juncture in time is when the righteous shall be tested. Are they willing to hold true to the truth and risk being murdered by Cain or will they give in and join Cain and delight in partaking of the spoils of his system?

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

It isn't 100% explicitly clear here that homosexuality, transexuality, bisexuality, beastiality, pedophilia, etc. are what is being spoken of here, but I think most people of just about every level of enlightenment on the good side can agree that all of these things are against nature and quite unseemly. We would be hard pressed to think of current trends that are more befitting to this description.

Also, this probably isn't a subject that gets very much attention from the faithful and virtuous LDS member, but those who are out and out willfully and knowingly advancing the Luciferian agenda at this time participate in rituals and initiatory experiences that involve homosexual and other perverse sexual acts. Sexual deviance and Luciferianism go hand in hand. Remember, Lucifer's kingdom is the lunar reflection of the Father's.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

This portion of scripture describes in greater detail the path of those who Lucifer overcomes to bring them into the flesh and bone body of Cain. He brings all of these spirits upon them bit by bit, spirit by spirit, until they advance in the ranks on the left-hand path and have their full on awakening and choice to dedicate themselves to that path.

Therefore, those who wish to remain free of the incursion of Lucifer's spirit must vigorously maintain a great level of discipline and humility. These passages make for a great check list to look ourselves over in an assessment to put a check on Lucifer's incursions.

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

This passage brings to your awareness the full height and end of the path to Perdition. As far as I am concerned, this confirms to me that Paul is placing before us a complete roadmap and description of how people suffered themselves to be overcome in the pre-existence and how people shall again be taken in the delusions of Lucifer and find themselves delighting in Perdition.

We also would do well to consider that there is only one class of souls who reach the level of accountability to where the condemnation of Perdition becomes possible. Also, both men members and female members can join themselves to Cain's body of flesh and bone. Just because Cain himself as a flesh and bone entity was of a masculine configuration does not prevent women from fully participating in his agenda.

Also, lest you think to yourself, I have never committed murder, I highly recommend you take a step back and consider what I have talked about in other threads where I talk about the process of excommunication as being a form of spiritual capital punishment. I have seen a good number of people speaking very casually about the "loving" process of excommunication. Make no mistake about it, this is the death of someone's union with God thus terminating their spiritual life. It is extremely severe and should never be a tool against the innocent.

So, I highly recommend that those who advocate the excommunication of members take into full consideration that they are lending their aid and support to an act which God could potentially look upon them as bringing innocent spiritual blood upon their garments. The nature of Cain's murder against Abel was just as much a wayward application of spiritual murder as it was an outright murder of tabernacle and soul. In either case it denies the Holy Ghost from dwelling in a suitable tabernacle. The sin of denying someone the Holy Ghost who is worthy of it is the same as a sin of shedding innocent blood, spiritually speaking. And, I'd much rather be physically killed than spiritually killed.

And, make no mistake about it, homosexuality is a key player in Lucifer's path to Perdition.

[freedomforall]

....

No reference to the OP and no reference to scripture. Way to go. You sure made your case.

Nope, I avoided scripture this time knowing what the OP is trying to present. I've already responded and answered the OP in many cases, yet they are avoided so that supposition can continue to enter into everyone's ears. I have presented scriptural evidence proving the theory that homosexuality is somehow acceptable before God just by showing forth love...is unequivocally not true. Let me tell you something factual. God does not allow sin in the least degree. Do you grasp this concept? No unclean thing can enter God's presence, likewise, do you grasp this concept? Nowhere is sin an allowed activity. Romans 1 does not say it is, rather it expresses what happens to people that are hellbent on doing their own thing. In how many ways can this be explained until it will be understood?
Do you really want people to agree with your hypothesis?
Now do you understand my case?

[Franktalk]

I have come to the conclusion some time ago that in time love will conquer all. The top two commandments of God must be the ultimate truth and carry the will of God. Many people feel that there is a better place than the earth. They wish to go there to escape this place. But until that day we are here and we do the best we can.

My daughter is gay and she is also one of the most loving persons I know. She brings light into those around her. She is dying from cystic fibrosis caused by a genetic disease she obtained from my DNA and that of her mother. She has many friends and I know that each and every one of them would not post the vile junk that has appeared on this thread. When I read the things she writes it is clear she cares for those around her. Yet she is called evil by closed minded people who God has described as foolish.

I brought up that the Jews were cast into spiritual blindness. So all of them born from 32 AD to today have come into the world with God's judgement being laid on them. I believe in MMP so I think we all experience what we need to experience from one probation to the next. It would not surprise me to find out that those who think evil of loving people will end up being who they hate. It has a ring of truth to it.

So those who bar the gates of heaven will be barred. Those who hate Jews will be a Jew. Those who hate gays will be gay. Those who hate blacks will be black. And from what I know we stop in our progression until our lesson is learned. Because I tell people I believe that love is the most important thing we can embrace. I am told that I listen to evil. The message of love that I see in the scriptures is one not held by many. People tell me I must judge others and it is required that we cast out people not like ourselves.

But silly old me. The comments of those who judge do not affect my Love for God. The comments also do not change the way I love my fellow neighbor. I will hold true to what I hold as truth. So judge away dear friends. I was once as you are. And you will be as I am now.

[Franktalk]

Paul is specifically speaking to his fellow priesthood brethren. This letter isn't meant for the masses. He is addressing the most advanced in the ranks of the priesthood. This is NOT a letter containing milk. This is meat.

So are you telling me that no women were in the group in Rome?

[jwharton]

Paul is specifically speaking to his fellow priesthood brethren. This letter isn't meant for the masses. He is addressing the most advanced in the ranks of the priesthood. This is NOT a letter containing milk. This is meat.

So are you telling me that no women were in the group in Rome?

I simply pointed out Paul's letter was addressed to the "brethren".

There are priesthood bodies, such as the School of the Prophets, that only admitted men. The salutation and covenant involved a promise to be friends and brothers. Therefore, when you read a revelation in the D&C where the Lord is speaking to his "friends" or there are references of a man's "brother" or the "sons of god" these are generally indications that the correspondence is pertaining to a priesthood body.

[jwharton]

I have come to the conclusion some time ago that in time love will conquer all. The top two commandments of God must be the ultimate truth and carry the will of God. Many people feel that there is a better place than the earth. They wish to go there to escape this place. But until that day we are here and we do the best we can.

My daughter is gay and she is also one of the most loving persons I know. She brings light into those around her. She is dying from cystic fibrosis caused by a genetic disease she obtained from my DNA and that of her mother. She has many friends and I know that each and every one of them would not post the vile junk that has appeared on this thread. When I read the things she writes it is clear she cares for those around her. Yet she is called evil by closed minded people who God has described as foolish.

I brought up that the Jews were cast into spiritual blindness. So all of them born from 32 AD to today have come into the world with God's judgement being laid on them. I believe in MMP so I think we all experience what we need to experience from one probation to the next. It would not surprise me to find out that those who think evil of loving people will end up being who they hate. It has a ring of truth to it.

So those who bar the gates of heaven will be barred. Those who hate Jews will be a Jew. Those who hate gays will be gay. Those who hate blacks will be black. And from what I know we stop in our progression until our lesson is learned. Because I tell people I believe that love is the most important thing we can embrace. I am told that I listen to evil. The message of love that I see in the scriptures is one not held by many. People tell me I must judge others and it is required that we cast out people not like ourselves.

But silly old me. The comments of those who judge do not affect my Love for God. The comments also do not change the way I love my fellow neighbor. I will hold true to what I hold as truth. So judge away dear friends. I was once as you are. And you will be as I am now.

Frank, I decline to accept much of what you have said here because it appears to me to be heavily laden with spiteful retort.

I suspect what I wrote above has been upsetting and even disturbing to you.

I simply wrote my sincere belief about Romans chapter 1. In no way shape or form do I advocate hate for gays or any other group. I have simply attempted to demonstrate what God's Word has to say upon the matter, which I thought you were genuinely interested in hearing.

I won't pretend for one millisecond that I am about to allow my feelings of emotion cloud my willingness to simply seek in an objective manner to understand what God's will is. The worst thing a father can do is put his emotions for his child above truly understanding the mind and will of God.

What a father thinks is love could actually be something that opens the door to deeper and darker chasms for his children if he neglects his duty to lead and guide them according to the wisdom and commandments of God.

You may think a person operating with the spirit of homosexuality can be a pure receptacle for light and truth, but you would do well to recall that Lucifer considered himself the "bearer of light". And, he actually was a bearer of light. It's just that it was the lunar light instead of the Celestial light. There is glory in his kingdom as well, but it is far inferior to the Celestial Kingdom of the Father.

[Simon]

H

I have come to the conclusion some time ago that in time love will conquer all. The top two commandments of God must be the ultimate truth and carry the will of God. Many people feel that there is a better place than the earth. They wish to go there to escape this place. But until that day we are here and we do the best we can.

My daughter is gay and she is also one of the most loving persons I know. She brings light into those around her. She is dying from cystic fibrosis caused by a genetic disease she obtained from my DNA and that of her mother. She has many friends and I know that each and every one of them would not post the vile junk that has appeared on this thread. When I read the things she writes it is clear she cares for those around her. Yet she is called evil by closed minded people who God has described as foolish.

I brought up that the Jews were cast into spiritual blindness. So all of them born from 32 AD to today have come into the world with God's judgement being laid on them. I believe in MMP so I think we all experience what we need to experience from one probation to the next. It would not surprise me to find out that those who think evil of loving people will end up being who they hate. It has a ring of truth to it.

So those who bar the gates of heaven will be barred. Those who hate Jews will be a Jew. Those who hate gays will be gay. Those who hate blacks will be black. And from what I know we stop in our progression until our lesson is learned. Because I tell people I believe that love is the most important thing we can embrace. I am told that I listen to evil. The message of love that I see in the scriptures is one not held by many. People tell me I must judge others and it is required that we cast out people not like ourselves.

But silly old me. The comments of those who judge do not affect my Love for God. The comments also do not change the way I love my fellow neighbor. I will hold true to what I hold as truth. So judge away dear friends. I was once as you are. And you will be as I am now.

You know Frank, as I mentioned already this is a very difficult topic. How can something be a sin that seems to be natural? What are we to make of it? To be honest I have no idea. I claim no divine revelation on that matter, and I understand that those who are gay become sick of what religion has made out of that. There is no question that too many judge unjustly and in total ignorance. As I said, I have no doubt that once Christ will come, many will be astonished at whok the Lord will consider his chosen, many will be surprised.

So, I dont have the answer, and I admit how much of knowledge I lack in that area. I even believe there are some really important points in your message, but I also believe that what you have is not a hundret percent correct. The Lord can justify whom he wants, and he can judge the matter perfectly, we can not, for one or for the other side.

If I get more time, I may look a little deeper into yout post and scriptures and let you know my thoughts, may take a while though since I am rather busy. But if you are interested, I will respond.

[Franktalk]

You know Frank, as I mentioned already this is a very difficult topic. How can something be a sin that seems to be natural? What are we to make of it? To be honest I have no idea. I claim no divine revelation on that matter, and I understand that those who are gay become sick of what religion has made out of that. There is no question that too many judge unjustly and in total ignorance. As I said, I have no doubt that once Christ will come, many will be astonished at who the Lord will consider his chosen, many will be surprised.

So, I don't have the answer, and I admit how much of knowledge I lack in that area. I even believe there are some really important points in your message, but I also believe that what you have is not a hundred percent correct. The Lord can justify whom he wants, and he can judge the matter perfectly, we can not, for one or for the other side.

If I get more time, I may look a little deeper into your post and scriptures and let you know my thoughts, may take a while though since I am rather busy. But if you are interested, I will respond.

I do not claim to know all truth. All I know is that as each of us gets closer to living the life of Jesus the world will hate us. It is a measure of our progress. What I find is as the world turns on me now I turn to Jesus and talk with Him. I tell Him how it feels and I realize how He felt while the world beat Him and took His life. I don't expect rewards in heaven for what I do. Jesus is to receive the deed to this world. Many think that is a reward in heaven. But I see it differently. Jesus is allowing Himself to be tied to the most vile of people for as long as it takes for them to progress back to the Father. Who knows how long that will take. And how many more worlds He will have to reshape from this lump of matter. He will do the work of the Father as the Father has laid out. Jesus will not take away free will. This means that all must rise from the pit by ourselves. So one by one with only gentle interference in the environment Jesus will work with billions of souls. Just who among us would take on a task like that? The Spirit of Jesus is truly remarkable.

Knowing the world is filled with haters and vile people I venture out and poke the beast with a stick. A stick of words which makes the beast hate me. The beast now looks upon me and seeks to devour the thing that dares to expose the beast as a beast. Where I do this thing in a small group Jesus did this thing to the whole world. The waves caused by Jesus are still rebounding to and fro on the earth. It is as He said He did not come to bring peace.

I do not have answers to the questions that circle around human behavior. But I am very confident that the answers are not grounded in hate but love. Exactly how love applies in the case of homosexual behavior I sure don't know. But it does have a ring of a spiritual test to me. To me when blindness was placed on the Jews it caused a division between the new school chosen Christians and the Old school chosen. To me when God uses homosexual lust as judgement it also causes division on the world. Those of the world embrace the division and wallow in the easy choice of feeling higher than their fellow man. How easy it is to feel closer to God because we can walk upon the backs of the despised. Yet Jesus came for the despised. He did not come for the elite who sit in the high chairs and lord over their subjects. The moment we lord over anyone we step away from Jesus and we step closer to the world. It is so easy to see once we remove the beam in our eye. And what shall we call the beam? Bigotry, hatred, and many more names.

So my friend we walk a very difficult path. And in time all of us will walk the same path. A path that leads back to the Father.

[Franktalk]

jwharton,

I found your comments on Romans very interesting. We obviously disagree but I am fine with that. I will reread your comments a few times to learn yet another view of the scriptures. For that I thank you.

[jwharton]

jwharton,

I found your comments on Romans very interesting. We obviously disagree but I am fine with that. I will reread your comments a few times to learn yet another view of the scriptures. For that I thank you.

You are welcome.

If I may add, I believe a time will come when the governments are fully swayed to enforce equality and liberty for people of all sexual orientation. I believe that because of this the LDS church will again be placed under tremendous pressure to concede to what the government requires. A time of conflict is most definitely upon us that will only end well for the wise and the righteous.

Just as it was a necessity to keep the adversary from destroying the church to discontinue plural marriages, which he clearly had the power to do because of our having been under condemnation at the time, I believe a similar bind is on our near horizon.

So far as I have been made aware by the words of the modern prophets, we as a church are still under the condemnation provision that President Benson was so greatly desirous to get us out from under by stressing we take the Book of Mormon more seriously and that we strive to bring to pass Zion's redemption. He saw pride as the major obstacle and I couldn't agree with that more. I would only want the unbelief aspect added to that.

So, as I see it, it's a race. Will the members repent in order to satisfy the requirements the Lord has given so that we can lay claim upon His divine protection in order to have the wherewithal to stand up to the powers of the state and remain unmolested? Or, will we brazenly begin to say "All is well" while giving the state all of the concessions it requires? Will we love God or will we love mammon?

I know there are many who say the leadership should not have abandoned plural marriage back in the day and that this is a major reason why the world has gained such a great influence and power over the Saints, etc. I guess somehow they discredit the vision that was given to Wilford Woodruff that clearly showed him the situation of the church. I believe it was a vision of the Lord and absolutely true that if there wasn't a concession that they church would have indeed been destroyed just as was indicated.

The root cause of this is the Saints were yet under condemnation. It is entirely unjust and unfair to lay upon the leadership the blame. What Wilford Woodruff did was the very best thing that could have been done for us at that time. And, I predict, we shall face similar circumstances in the future. We will keep facing these binds as matters become more and more "in our face" until the Saints are driven to such lengths of deprivation that they begin to cry day and night upon the Lord for deliverance and finally get humble enough to really take matters seriously and to come out from under condemnation.

God does not compromise His standards. The Father's plan simply is what it is and He stands His ground awaiting our repentance.

I suspect you are joined by many who have children, siblings, close friends, etc. who have been taken by a spirit of homosexuality. In most respects they will otherwise be people who are just as capable and "loving" as others. It will seem a terrible injustice to lay restrictions upon them when other people with worse maladies are appearing to get away with it. The sentiments you are espousing, and I believe encouraging here, will begin to sweep over the members of the church and the day will come when they will receive our embrace just as you appear to hope for.

But, I ask you to consider this point. God will eventually give that which people desire, even if it is to their condemnation. They have to pester Him for quite a while and really press upon Him what they want, despite the fact that He has already commanded against it. But, if they plead with Him long enough, God shall actually see a way clear to deliver them up to whatever their errant desires are and give them the delusion necessary to then believe they are getting what they want with His approbation.

In the final analysis of what I predict, I can think of no greater punishment God could give someone who is homosexual than to go ahead and allow them into His temple and to be sealed for eternity to someone with whom they shall remain entirely desolate of posterity with.