So is this to say mankind can handle the repercussions of killing their sinless son, or speaking against Father? This is an honest question. I can't see how Fathers love is not equal or the same as Mothers love.bethany wrote:It is not that Mother in Heaven cannot handle blasphemy, it is that mankind cannot handle the repercussions when they speak against her.
Heavenly Mother
- Jeremy
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Re: Heavenly Mother
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Re: Heavenly Mother
If people only knew how the storms we experience, the volcanic eruptions, the earthquakes... All of this is because of us. If we live in harmony with each other, the Earth lives in harmony with us. If we are busy mangling, destroying each other, hating... The Earth absorbs our wars & contentions until she has to release it. It's all us. Any low level energy worker is capable of learning this through the tools that are taught thru energy work. A couple years ago, there was a drought in Texas that was severe, my attention was drawn to several threads reporting drought across the southwest... I prayed to know what Father wanted me to know & do, I was told that it was the unforgiveness of the people. As they withheld forgiveness from one another, nature withheld rain. In my little lds valley, we had a rash of severe fires, we gathered to pray & were told it was lack of unity. The people were brought together & the fires abated. When these things happen, we can release what the Earth is holding & send in what is lacking to help the balance. So yes there are repercussions to all our hating, but the Mothers love is very pure. Look at how indignant people are when injustices happen... We endure war, atrocities, etc. but let one heart rending image come through of an innocent baby caught in it, & people are compelled to care. The very purity of the baby provokes our response. Suddenly we see more clearly. Mother is purity & love & reflects back what we are. It is just the law, hate pure love & you are just hating yourself.
- Jeremy
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Re: Heavenly Mother
That is beautiful truth Bethany. However, I don't see how that supports the idea of hiding a Heavenly Mother. If we continue that line of truth we end up at a point where She and Him are one. They cleave unto each other. You can not offend or hurt one without doing the same to the other.
I do not believe it is a matter of protection that we don't speak of Her. I believe it is a matter of ignorance, arrogance, and a symbol for the telestial souls to learn that our body (Eve, Woman) is to hearken to our spirit (Adam, Man). It is a symbol that is throughout our world. But it is only telestial. Rise above that and the two have priesthood. Rise above that and the two have priesthood together and are one.
I do not believe it is a matter of protection that we don't speak of Her. I believe it is a matter of ignorance, arrogance, and a symbol for the telestial souls to learn that our body (Eve, Woman) is to hearken to our spirit (Adam, Man). It is a symbol that is throughout our world. But it is only telestial. Rise above that and the two have priesthood. Rise above that and the two have priesthood together and are one.
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Re: Heavenly Mother
We hid her, God did not hide her. Man rejected and destroyed the knowledge of her. I study a lot to teach myself, I'm not always the best teacher as I internalize what I learn & no longer spend the greater effort to make sure I can reteach what I learn. We live in a new day. Things are shifting. I was always taught (by a great bishop, that which or who you do not understand or love, spend time studying & serving that you create the capacity of understanding & love. Therefore, that is my motto, when I do not comprehend something, I seek what is out there until I find what I am searching for. This is a day that if you have not truly known Christ, seek him with purity & he will come. You will prove that this is true for yourself. Stop believing that there are these blocks to knowing him. The same is true of all principles & I'll let people figure that out themselves. They are not unknowable.
- Jeremy
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Re: Heavenly Mother
Well said.bethany wrote:We hid her, God did not hide her. Man rejected and destroyed the knowledge of her.
- passionflower
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Re: Heavenly Mother
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- A Random Phrase
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- Jeremy
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Re: Heavenly Mother
Or took out?passionflower wrote:There is nothing in scripture or the temple that calls any person in heaven or a wife of Elohim "heavenly mother". It is a title someone made up.
Maybe there is a bit more to go on than logic.passionflower wrote:It may seem logical to people that if there is a heavenly father, then there is a heavenly mother, but that is all you have to go on.
If there is such a being, I believe the best mothers I know on this earth are patterned after Her. That being the case, she is more involved in our lives than any child can comprehend.passionflower wrote:Ir there is such a being, I believe she is in her home raising the next generation of spirits. Her work with us being through.
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Re: Heavenly Mother
:ymapplause:Jeremy wrote:Or took out?passionflower wrote:There is nothing in scripture or the temple that calls any person in heaven or a wife of Elohim "heavenly mother". It is a title someone made up.
- Rick Grimes
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Re: Heavenly Mother
Threads like these always run the risk of getting all "New Age" with incense and weird music playing in the background.
The whole thing about us not talking about Heavenly Mother to "protect" Her, is a mormon-made doctrine. It's not in scriptures, not in any revelation, etc.... 8-|
I believe it is fairly obvious that there are indeed Heavenly Mothers that helped our spirits come into existence. How that happened, I won't speculate with any authority, but I personally think it is required for both a God and a Godess to be participating in the creation of a spirit being. (Much like it is here on Earth)
That being said, if we posted this on the Church website (or anything talking about Godesses for that matter), we would have a tough time getting people to believe that we are Christians and not Pagans.
The whole thing about us not talking about Heavenly Mother to "protect" Her, is a mormon-made doctrine. It's not in scriptures, not in any revelation, etc.... 8-|
I believe it is fairly obvious that there are indeed Heavenly Mothers that helped our spirits come into existence. How that happened, I won't speculate with any authority, but I personally think it is required for both a God and a Godess to be participating in the creation of a spirit being. (Much like it is here on Earth)
That being said, if we posted this on the Church website (or anything talking about Godesses for that matter), we would have a tough time getting people to believe that we are Christians and not Pagans.
- Jeremy
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Re: Heavenly Mother
Why we would have a desire to be recognized as "Christians", before a desire to teach the doctrines that makes us peculiar, is beyond me. We seem to forget the things told to Joseph:Rick Grimes wrote:That being said, if we posted this on the Church website (or anything talking about Godesses for that matter), we would have a tough time getting people to believe that we are Christians and not Pagans.
Now we shy away from the doctrine that separates us from those who have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. We place growth through public relation strategy above pure, unadulterated doctrine that converts and saves. Our desire to fit in, avoid criticism and persecution has cost us tremendously. Alas, we have become numbered among those who deny the power thereof. We join with the rest of Christianity and teach for doctrines the commandments of men. We have rejected the fullness and ignorantly fulfilled prophecy while doing it. Our time is at a close. There are few who will follow. Those who do will receive true doctrine and they will be able to move mountains by their faith because their faith will be based in truth and not the lies of false hope and corrupt professors.Joseph Smith—History wrote:19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
:-B
- Rick Grimes
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Re: Heavenly Mother
You know what, Jeremy? I totally feel your frustration. There many times that I wish that the prophet would just "say it". I remember watching President Hinkley give a televised interview and although he came across as friendly and not cuckoo, he also seemed to shy away from the tough questions.Jeremy wrote:Why we would have a desire to be recognized as "Christians", before a desire to teach the doctrines that makes us peculiar, is beyond me. We seem to forget the things told to Joseph:Rick Grimes wrote:That being said, if we posted this on the Church website (or anything talking about Godesses for that matter), we would have a tough time getting people to believe that we are Christians and not Pagans.Now we shy away from the doctrine that separates us from those who have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. We place growth through public relation strategy above pure, unadulterated doctrine that converts and saves. Our desire to fit in, avoid criticism and persecution has cost us tremendously. Alas, we have become numbered among those who deny the power thereof. We join with the rest of Christianity and teach for doctrines the commandments of men. We have rejected the fullness and ignorantly fulfilled prophecy while doing it. Our time is at a close. There are few who will follow. Those who do will receive true doctrine and they will be able to move mountains by their faith because their faith will be based in truth and not the lies of false hope and corrupt professors.Joseph Smith—History wrote:19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
:-B
I remember they asked him if God was once a man and he answered, "I've heard that before...." and then circumlocuted his way around the question like a true politician. He was also asked how he talks to God and about polygamy, and he always gave the primary answers yo skirt around the issues. I just wanted to scream at the tv for him to just "say it".
In hindsight, I realize that he was much wiser than me. He did not want to bring harm to our Lord's kingdom. Yes it would have been bold and daring for him to have just said "damn the torpedoes" and let out the truth, but at what cost? Sure it would have felt good and satisfying to have seen Pres. Hinckley throw the finger to the world and proudly proclaim that God was once a man and that we did not err with polygamy or that he has seen and spoken with God and that we can become God's and Goddesses ourselves! How memorable and satisfying would that have been! However, none of these principles in and of themselves save lives. You know what does save lives? Faith, repentence, baptism, and gift of the Holy Ghost are the principles and ordinances that do lead people to the CK.
How many new members, with their sweet and tender testimony, still young and fragile but precious in the eyes of the Lord, would have had their testimonies shattered to hear such radical new doctrine that wasn't' covered in the missionary discussions? How many families' sealings and temple blessings would be lost because of our need to "just say it"? How many potential members who would indeed join with us by going down into the waters of baptism, would not do so because they saw and remembered this interview with an old man stating things that were so strange and foreign to them, that they dismiss us as a crazy cult before even hearing the message of the gospel?
This isn't to say that these keys of knowledge are not important or to be dismissed, but those can be obtained more on an individual level so that those who are not ready to receive "meat" in the gospel don't "choke and die" before they are ready to do so.
I think this speaks to the charity and patience the Lord has for His children, to not make the message so difficult to understand.
Last edited by Rick Grimes on February 8th, 2014, 7:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
- AnthonyR
- captain of 100
- Posts: 212
Re: Heavenly Mother
8-| anyways.... bethany and Jeremy, all you have said has struck a chord in me. This is a beautiful thread. Mother is beautiful, she is amazing how she supports Father in all He does. Her love is tangible.
I teach the 14 year olds Sunday school class. We were talking about attributes of God. I suggested we see Father as both Father and Mother, our God. A couple boys looked at me weird and said "I have a Mother in heaven?" It was awesome to bring her to their attention.
I teach the 14 year olds Sunday school class. We were talking about attributes of God. I suggested we see Father as both Father and Mother, our God. A couple boys looked at me weird and said "I have a Mother in heaven?" It was awesome to bring her to their attention.
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Re: Heavenly Mother
We always say the new converts can't handle it, it is too strange for them. It's all new and strange them so what's a little more. That's why many of them come to the church. It is usually the hard hearted long time members who can't handle the cognitive dissonance, and challenge to their comfortable beliefs (whatever degree that happens to be). Joseph taught amazing "strange" doctrines to "new" members and nonmembers alike, that's why they joined.
The image of God is male AND female. If one is involved the other certainly is as well. We have removed her not the other way around.
The image of God is male AND female. If one is involved the other certainly is as well. We have removed her not the other way around.
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Re: Heavenly Mother
We refer to our Father as Elohim, which is plural. Bro. Joseph expounded on this, but what if another reason why we use the plural Elohim instead of the singular Eloa is because He really is more than one person (Father and Mother)?
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Re: Heavenly Mother
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Last edited by bethany on February 8th, 2014, 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heavenly Mother
We see this in the vision by Mosiah Hancock when he sees pairs created... Male & female, then we r commanded to be one... In order to Gods you must be one, male & female. God the Father & God the Mother are one. Therefore 'they' are God. All our definitions are based on our perspective. If you hold sacred a belief that she is hidden, she will hide. It's your call. God was not responsible for the dynamics we created.
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Re: Heavenly Mother
That's what I've been screaming. We used to have few & golden converts who understood & valued the uniqueness of the theology & we thrived. I could meet a stranger & see their light extend all around them. Now I sit in church amongst predators and saints & they are sometimes not even distinguishable. I know a law enforcement fellow that arrests ppl, first thing he does is ask them their calling. You'd be shocked at the ppl holding callings & what they are doing as they prey on the flock.bbrown wrote:We always say the new converts can't handle it, it is too strange for them. It's all new and strange them so what's a little more. That's why many of them come to the church. It is usually the hard hearted long time members who can't handle the cognitive dissonance, and challenge to their comfortable beliefs (whatever degree that happens to be). Joseph taught amazing "strange" doctrines to "new" members and nonmembers alike, that's why they joined.
The image of God is male AND female. If one is involved the other certainly is as well. We have removed her not the other way around.
- Rick Grimes
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Re: Heavenly Mother
I trust you mean that they are "one", just as Christ and the Father are "one", correct? That God is some sort of asexual/hermaphroditic being is not what you are saying, correct?bethany wrote:We see this in the vision by Mosiah Hancock when he sees pairs created... Male & female, then we r commanded to be one... In order to Gods you must be one, male & female. God the Father & God the Mother are one. Therefore 'they' are God. All our definitions are based on our perspective. If you hold sacred a belief that she is hidden, she will hide. It's your call. God was not responsible for the dynamics we created.
I think we could all agree with them being "one", if this is your meaning.
- Jeremy
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Re: Heavenly Mother
:ymhug: You know what, Rick? I used to feel exactly like you clearly, gently stated. Now I "see" why Hinckley answered the way he did. A large part is called PR and while some may think it serves to bring no harm to the kingdom, it shakes violently the perceived validity anything a "prophet" might testify of. So we water down everything so we appeal to the masses, but in reality the masses start to appeal to us until we finally disregard doctrine that exalts. (I should have used that word, rather than saves).Rick Grimes wrote:You know what, Jeremy? I totally feel your frustration.
With that said, I feel where you are coming from Rick. I stood there for about 14 years. It is an honorable position to take. It shows a trust in God who has promised you prophets. Don't let that trust in God transform to trust in flesh. Man will fail you.
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Re: Heavenly Mother
Rick Grimes wrote:I trust you mean that they are "one", just as Christ and the Father are "one", correct? That God is some sort of asexual/hermaphroditic being is not what you are saying, correct?bethany wrote:We see this in the vision by Mosiah Hancock when he sees pairs created... Male & female, then we r commanded to be one... In order to Gods you must be one, male & female. God the Father & God the Mother are one. Therefore 'they' are God. All our definitions are based on our perspective. If you hold sacred a belief that she is hidden, she will hide. It's your call. God was not responsible for the dynamics we created.
I think we could all agree with them being "one", if this is your meaning.
as in 2 become God, neither the male or the female are God without the other. as far as being asexual, i don't think it applies to the state that they are in. i think our form of creation applies to our state. but they are welcome to teach me otherwise. i am also not saying that they surrender their feminine or masculine aspects. but it is in their oneness that they are God. so we can ignore or cut her out of our mental image all we wish, but we will find that it was folly & never was according to the design of heaven.
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Re: Heavenly Mother
reminds me of John Bytheway's talk... when he quoted Pres. Taylor & the people - reformationist Christians were sqauwking... 'you are not like us...' & he said, yes, nor do we wish to be... (paraphrased)Jeremy wrote::ymhug: You know what, Rick? I used to feel exactly like you clearly, gently stated. Now I "see" why Hinckley answered the way he did. A large part is called PR and while some may think it serves to bring no harm to the kingdom, it shakes violently the perceived validity anything a "prophet" might testify of. So we water down everything so we appeal to the masses, but in reality the masses start to appeal to us until we finally disregard doctrine that exalts. (I should have used that word, rather than saves).Rick Grimes wrote:You know what, Jeremy? I totally feel your frustration.
With that said, I feel where you are coming from Rick. I stood there for about 14 years. It is an honorable position to take. It shows a trust in God who has promised you prophets. Don't let that trust in God transform to trust in flesh. Man will fail you.
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Re: Heavenly Mother
Rick Grimes wrote:You know what, Jeremy? I totally feel your frustration. There many times that I wish that the prophet would just "say it". I remember watching President Hinkley give a televised interview and although he came across as friendly and not cuckoo, he also seemed to shy away from the tough questions.Jeremy wrote:Why we would have a desire to be recognized as "Christians", before a desire to teach the doctrines that makes us peculiar, is beyond me. We seem to forget the things told to Joseph:Rick Grimes wrote:That being said, if we posted this on the Church website (or anything talking about Godesses for that matter), we would have a tough time getting people to believe that we are Christians and not Pagans.Now we shy away from the doctrine that separates us from those who have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof. We place growth through public relation strategy above pure, unadulterated doctrine that converts and saves. Our desire to fit in, avoid criticism and persecution has cost us tremendously. Alas, we have become numbered among those who deny the power thereof. We join with the rest of Christianity and teach for doctrines the commandments of men. We have rejected the fullness and ignorantly fulfilled prophecy while doing it. Our time is at a close. There are few who will follow. Those who do will receive true doctrine and they will be able to move mountains by their faith because their faith will be based in truth and not the lies of false hope and corrupt professors.Joseph Smith—History wrote:19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
:-B
I remember they asked him if God was once a man and he answered, "I've heard that before...." and then circumlocuted his way around the question like a true politician. He was also asked how he talks to God and about polygamy, and he always gave the primary answers yo skirt around the issues. I just wanted to scream at the tv for him to just "say it".
In hindsight, I realize that he was much wiser than me. He did not want to bring harm to our Lord's kingdom. Yes it would have been bold and daring for him to have just said "damn the torpedoes" and let out the truth, but at what cost? Sure it would have felt good and satisfying to have seen Pres. Hinckley throw the finger to the world and proudly proclaim that God was once a man and that we did not err with polygamy or that he has seen and spoken with God and that we can become God's and Goddesses ourselves! How memorable and satisfying would that have been! However, none of these principles in and of themselves save lives. You know what does save lives? Faith, repentence, baptism, and gift of the Holy Ghost are the principles and ordinances that do lead people to the CK.
How many new members, with their sweet and tender testimony, still young and fragile but precious in the eyes of the Lord, would have had their testimonies shattered to hear such radical new doctrine that wasn't' covered in the missionary discussions? How many families' sealings and temple blessings would be lost because of our need to "just say it"? How many potential members who would indeed join with us by going down into the waters of baptism, would not do so because they saw and remembered this interview with an old man stating things that were so strange and foreign to them, that they dismiss us as a crazy cult before even hearing the message of the gospel?
This isn't to say that these keys of knowledge are not important or to be dismissed, but those can be obtained more on an individual level so that those who are not ready to receive "meat" in the gospel don't "choke and die" before they are ready to do so.
I think this speaks to the charity and patience the Lord has for His children, to not make the message so difficult to understand.
Wonderful thoughts Rick. There are a couple quotes from Joseph in TPJS that Nibley highlighed in his talk about Crtisizing the Brethren that apply to this discussion.
"Leave the kingdom alone, the Lord steadies the ark; and if it does jostle, and appear to need steadying, if the way is a little sideling sometimes and to all appearance threatens its overthrow, be careful how you stretch forth your hands to steady it; let us not be too officious in meddling with that which does not concern us. Let it alone, it is the Lord's work. I know enough to let the kingdom alone, and do my duty. It carries me, I do not carry the kingdom."89... So what do you do if you see folly and error all around you? You continue to think for yourself. That's the first rule, which means to think to yourself. Thought is an inner process. It never reaches finality. "Theories can't be proved," says Hawking, the eminent physicist of our time.91 Joseph said, "We build our own kingdoms and obtain by our own faithfulness our own crowns that will exactly fill us."
So it is with Brother Joseph's advice on the subject. "Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a manifestation, keep it to yourselves. . . . Do not watch for iniquity in each other, if you do you will not get an endowment, for God will not bestow it on such."92...
As I sat in the temple the other day I was reminded of the importance of the covenant opportunities given us in that holy house. We declare before God angels and witnesses to show reverence and respect as pertaining to those sacred and holy offerings being made by our own free will and choice. We are promised rich blessings if we live those laws of sacrifice and obedience and consecration in advancing and building up the kingdom of God on earth. That Kingdom was restored through Joseph and will be prepared through sanctification and purification and refinement to meet the Master when he takes back possession of all Priesthood Keys. Our test will be whether or not we live worthy of those sacred covenants made and show them the proper sense of reverence they deserve. It really doesn't matter what anyone else does in their individual test. The ball stays in our court with no one to blame but ourselves if we do not live up to those covenants. So much is made here of what our leaders should or shouldn't be doing or saying or teaching but the reality is that they are alone responsible for their own lives and relationships with their creator. They are not infallible and are just doing the best they can to honor their God and live their own individual covenants. That is why Joseph said it is important to throw a cloak of charity over others sins and shortcomings.
"It is one evidence that men are unacquainted with the principles of godliness to behold the contraction of affectionate feelings and lack of charity in the world. The power and glory of godliness is spread out on a broad principle to throw out the mantle of charity. God does not look on sin with allowance, but when men have sinned, there must be allowance made for them. … The nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs. …"
That is the true nature of the Gospel of Christ. Satan seeks in every way to distract us from these core principles that can prepare us for Zion. We have no one to blame but ourselves if we fall short of this destination.
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Re: Heavenly Mother
couldnt that just mean though that she is the mother of all living in this sphere? and this is kind of a little bit adam-god-theory which is a whole other ball park.jwharton wrote:Very good question!
In my opinion, Eve is my Heavenly Mother.
Adam called Eve "the mother of all living" and so to me that is who I consider Her to be.
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Re: Heavenly Mother
Elohim is plural right, or it can be, what it it includes Heavenly Mother as well? just something that came to me.