Eternity and Eternal Lives

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AshleyB
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Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by AshleyB »

I originally posted this in another thread but I thought the topic deserved its own thread. I am AMAZED at how riddled the scriptures are with this doctrine. It causes me to want to rejoice.

Someone in another thread brought up this scripture from the lectures on faith.
“For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto — revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every necessary thing, in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected, and obtain salvation; for God must change, otherwise faith will prevail with him. And he who possesses it will, through it, obtain all necessary knowledge and wisdom, until he shall know God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, whom He has sent — whom to know is eternal life. Amen.”
— Lectures on Faith by Joseph Smith
When I saw this it reminded me of the scriptures I had been reading and studying last night before I went to bed. I was reading in Alma Chapter 13.

People often think of eternal life as something to be received in the future, but eternal life is NOW. This is one eternity.
6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest—

7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things—
From eternity to all eternity really stood out to me. The chapter talks about how those after the Holy order of God were ordained before the foundations of this world according to the foreknowledge of God because of their good works after being left to choose between good and evil. Those who possess true priesthood or power in their priesthoods here possessed it in this other world before coming here. In what manner and in what type of place are we "left to choose between good and evil" and wherein are we able to perform labor and do works?
3 And this is the manner after which they were ordained—being called and prepared from the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God, on account of their exceeding faith and good works; in the first place being left to choose good or evil; therefore they having chosen good, and exercising exceedingly great faith, are called with a holy calling, yea, with that holy calling which was prepared with, and according to, a preparatory redemption for such.

4 And thus they have been called to this holy calling on account of their faith, while others would reject the Spirit of God on account of the hardness of their hearts and blindness of their minds, while, if it had not been for this they might have had as great privilege as their brethren.

5 Or in fine, in the first place they were on the same standing with their brethren; thus this holy calling being prepared from the foundation of the world for such as would not harden their hearts, being in and through the atonement of the Only Begotten Son, who was prepared—
Our "pre-existant" life was one eternity and we are now in another. Some here who now hold true priesthood also held it in that world after being proven that they would choose good over evil. If they didn't harden their hearts then and received from God are they likely to do the same here? And likewise are those who hardened there hearts then also likely to harden their hearts here? What type of world was it? This is one of the questions I have... I wonder if the mention of a preparatory redemption gives any hints? Anyway... I'm getting off on other subjects.

My point is that this is eternity. When we enter back into the Lord's presence and KNOW God for ourselves then we have received eternal life as it states above in the lectures on faith and in other scriptures. In the scriptures we are told that those who shall seek their own lives shall lose it while those who lose themselves in service to God find life. We are made ALIVE through Him as the scriptures state. It is not only ancestors who are dead. So are we until we are made alive in Christ. We are either in hell now or we are in heaven NOW. This is the whole sum of the matter in my mind. We need to awake and arise NOW and not think that eternity is only the future and that eternal life is something to be received after we leave this world. This world is one eternity. The one before this one was another eternity and there will be yet future worlds or eternity's. I beleive this is ALSO the doctrine of eternal lives.

What is it that the temple is teaching us that we must do in order to receive eternal life?
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal livesto know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
The temple is teaching us about the path of how to receive Him while we are IN THE WORLD. That is how we gain eternal life and it is what is necessary to receive exaltation.
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father, even as that of the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.

72 Behold, these are they who died without law;

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.

[ AND 2 Nephi 9 :38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.]

75 These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.

78 Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.

79 These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of our God.
These scriptures seem to be saying that we are not of a terrestrial glory until we receive the presence of the Son and that we must do so while IN THE FLESH. Then it is the son's role to prepare us and bring us into the Father's presence so we can receive a fullness of the Father. It brings to mind the temple experience. Also, when it speaks of "they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the son visited and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh. " Could this also be referring to those of us stuck in a telestial world still living a telestial glory and existence on not ONLY those who have already left this mortal world as we might suppose?
23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb.
[/quote]
37 Yea, wo unto those that worship idols, for the devil of all devils delighteth in them.

38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

39 O, my beloved brethren, remember the awfulness in transgressing against that Holy God, and also the awfulness of yielding to the enticings of that cunning one. Remember, to be carnally-minded is death, and to be spiritually-minded is life eternal.

40 O, my beloved brethren, give ear to my words. Remember the greatness of the Holy One of Israel. Do not say that I have spoken hard things against you; for if ye do, ye will revile against the truth; for I have spoken the words of your Maker. I know that the words of truth are hard against all uncleanness; but the righteous fear them not, for they love the truth and are not shaken.

41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.
The scriptures are just full to the brim with this important Doctrine. It amazes me. We cannot be expected to be saved because we know ABOUT God. We can only be truly saved and receive of fulness by actually knowing HIM. There is a difference.

This brings us back to the subject of rejecting the fulness of the gospel. The BOM predicts and prophesy's that the gentiles SHALL reject the fulness of the gospel. I made another thread on that recently here. viewtopic.php?f=14&t=32049" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; What happens when people reject the fullness? What does that look like? What is it they are rejecting when they reject the fulness? The scriptures that I posted above speaking about Moses gives us a HUGE clue.

I was reading in the Teachings of the Presidents of the Chruch : Joseph Fielding Smith book and I came across something..

“I sit and reflect at times, and in my reading of the scriptures, I think of the mission of our Lord, what he did for me, and when these feelings come upon me I say to myself, I cannot be untrue to him. He loved me with a perfect love, as he has done for all men, especially those who serve him, and I must love him with all the love I can, even if it is imperfect, which it should not be. It is wonderful. I did not live in the days of our Savior; he has not come to me in person. I have not beheld him. His Father and he have not felt it necessary to grant me such a great blessing as this. But it is not necessary. I have felt his presence. I know that the Holy Spirit has enlightened my mind and revealed him unto me, so that I do love my Redeemer, I hope, and feel it is true, better than everything else in this life. I would not have it otherwise. I want to be true to him. I know he died for me, for you and all mankind that we might live again through the resurrection. I know that he died that I might be forgiven my follies, my sins, and be cleansed from them. How wonderful is this love. How can I, knowing this, do anything else but love him, my Redeemer. I want my boys in the mission fields to feel this same way. I want my children and my grandchildren to feel that way, and never stray from the path of truth and righteousness.”2

Now, I have a great deal of respect for Joseph Fielding Smith and there is a great deal that I agree with him on. It is clear that He loved the Lord and that he strove to do his duties and to be a good man. This is not a personal attack on President Smith but I must say I disagree with his pronouncement that it is not necessary to receive these things. I don't want this thread to turn into a firestorm of a following the prophet debate and Im not bringing attention to this in order to belittle or bash anyone. Im only bringing this up as an example to show in part, why and how we as a people have rejected the fulness. We have forgotten many plain and precious things. We have wrested the scriptures and the important doctrines of the Kingdom. We teach for doctrines the commandments of men. The Lord has told us what is necessary to receive eternal life and exaltation. We must meet His standards. This is why the whole church came under condemnation as the Doctrine and Covenants state. Because we have treated lightly the things we have received. We ALL have. Now, playing a blame game is utterly pointless. Recognizing these things is not about assigning blame to anyone but our individual selves. The condemnation was a collective effort. We have all at times been blinded by that cunning one. Sometimes we are traveling down a path ignorantly but with good intentions. I choose to beleive that this is the case for most. But it is really beneficial when you go back and study history to see how we have evolved as a people. Suddenly you are able to start seeing and understanding why and how we brought this condemnation upon ourselves. Then we can truly awake and arise. I didn't really intend for this thread to necessarily go in this direction but it went here.
Moroni 8:24
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
Doctrine and Covenants 93:32
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation.
Helaman 14:19
19 Therefore repent ye, repent ye, lest by knowing these things and not doing them ye shall suffer yourselves to come under condemnation, and ye are brought down unto this second death.
54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.
The time to gain eternal life is now.
23 Awake, my sons; put on the armor of righteousness. Shake off the chains with which ye are bound, and come forth out of obscurity, and arise from the dust.

13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea, even from the sleep of hell, and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound, which are the chains which bind the children of men, that they are carried away captive down to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.

AshleyB
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by AshleyB »

If I had the time I could spend all day studying these topics and cross referencing scriptures. As I was going back and re-readings some things my mind went back to the original discussion with Alma Chapter 13.

My mind went back to these scriptures and the correlation between what is being said here and what was said about the children of Israel when they rejected the fulness.
6 And thus being called by this holy calling, and ordained unto the high priesthood of the holy order of God, to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest—
So those who have been called by this Holy calling after the order of God are called to teach His commandments so they might ALSO enter into His rest.

Ok lets go back to the children of Israel and see what is says about them.
19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God.

20 Therefore, in the ordinances thereof, the power of godliness is manifest.

21 And without the ordinances thereof, and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh;

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;
So what is entering into the Lords rest? It is to receive the fulness of His glory. Why did the Israelites not receive a fulness of His glory and enter into His rest? Because they hardened their hearts and they could not be sanctified and behold the face of God, and endure His presence.

Moses was taken out of the their midst and the greater preisthood also. If they had these things taken away and they could not enter His rest then WHY do we think the rules are different for us? If the Lord's wrath was kindled against them why would it be any different for us? Was not Joseph AND his successor Hyrum taken out the early saints midst? Zion is still fled and has not come again. We have not understood or taught that receiving Him while we are yet in the world is even necessary. Instead, we teach, " We have prophets! All we have to do is follow them and we won't go astray. " We ARE guilty of the SAME exact things as the jews were. They were content to allow Moses to talk to God for them. Then would not humble themselves and soften their hearts so they could see God and behold Him face to face for themselves. As a result God's wrath and anger was kindled against them. Again, I really dont want to stir up a debate about that but THIS is why these things have been harped on SO MUCH and its right there in the scriptures but somehow we don't see it and all the Irony.

This also made me reflect on the temple ordinances. We are meant to converse with the Lord through the veil unto He brushes it aside and then what happens? We enter the Celestial Kingdom and REST. Obviously at that point it doesn't mean we sit and do nothing from eternity to eternity so what is it we are resting from when that takes place?

There is SO MUCH more that could be discussed here. I hope others will come and share as well.
Last edited by AshleyB on February 5th, 2014, 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jwharton
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by jwharton »

Just want to say I am enjoying your musings.

You are asking many questions that I too would enjoy seeing more discussion take place surrounding them.

We are indeed in the wilderness phase while we await Zion's redemption.

One thing that perhaps will add to the discussion is the Sabbath Day is the Day of Rest. And, in terms of a thousand years being like a day unto the Lord, we are in the process of entering into the 7th thousand years since the beginning. We are on the precipice of collectively entering into the Day of Rest. Therefore, I believe the answer to your question about what we (collectively as Saints) shall do while we are resting is we will perform all of the temple work during the Millennium that needs to be performed. And, the only way we can accomplish it is to have respite, 100% respite, from the persecution and oppression of the wicked. We will rest from being troubled by our enemies.

Frederick
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by Frederick »

AshleyB wrote:So what is entering into the Lords rest? It is to receive the fulness of His glory. Why did the Israelites not receive a fulness of His glory and enter into His rest? Because they hardened their hearts and they could not be sanctified and behold the face of God, and endure His presence.

Moses was taken out of the their midst and the greater priesthood also. If they had these things taken away and they could not enter His rest then WHY do we think the rules are different for us? If the Lord's wrath was kindled against them why would it be any different for us? Was not Joseph AND his successor Hyrum taken out the early saints midst? Zion is still fled and has not come again. We have not understood or taught that receiving Him while we are yet in the world is even necessary. Instead, we teach, " We have prophets! All we have to do is follow them and we won't go astray. " We ARE guilty of the SAME exact things as the Jews were. They were content to allow Moses to talk to God for them. Then would not humble themselves and soften their hearts so they could see God and behold Him face to face for themselves. As a result God's wrath and anger was kindled against them. Again, I really don't want to stir up a debate about that but THIS is why these things have been harped on SO MUCH and its right there in the scriptures but somehow we don't see it and all the Irony.
I wish I could shout this message from the rooftops every day. I've shared this message at church countless times, though I'm not sure why more people don't really seem to "hear" it.

We are exactly like the Children of Israel. Yet, instead of seeking to enter into His rest, we rejoice that there is a man who sits atop this organization and he speaks to God for us. Isn't it awesome that God has called a prophet to lead us in these latter days?

Would God that all of His people would be prophets and that He would pour out His Spirit on them.

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TZONE
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by TZONE »

More quotes,
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was
I bel. in these Gods that God reveals as Gods---to be Sons of God & all can cry Abba Father--Sons of God who exalt themselves to be Gods even from bef. the foundatn. of the world & are all the only Gods I have a reverence for--

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/16Jun44.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also in TPJS
Different Degrees of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, By Joseph Smith

"Was the Priesthood of Melchizedek taken away when Moses died? [Answer by JS] All Priesthood is Melchizedek, but there are different portions or degrees of it. That portion which brought Moses to speak with God face to face was taken away; but that which brought the ministry of angels remained. All the prophets had the Melchizedek Priesthood and were ordained by God himself." TPJS, pp. 180-81

The Prophet Joseph Smith observed: “God cursed the children of Israel because they would not receive the last law from Moses. . . . When God offers a blessing or knowledge to a man and he refuses to receive it he will be damned. . . . The Israelites [prayed] that God would speak to Moses [and] not to them in consequence of which he cursed them with a carnal law. . . . [The] law revealed to Moses in Horeb . . . never was revealed to the [children] of Israel.”[2] Thus, the children of Israel wandered an unnecessary forty years in the wilderness as God tried to teach them to rely on Him.
[2] Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, eds., The Words of Joseph Smith (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1980), 244, 247; emphasis added.

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TZONE
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by TZONE »

The Doctrine of Translation

Now the doctrine of translation is a power which belongs to this Priesthood. There are many things which belong to the powers of the Priesthood and the keys thereof, that have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world; they are hid from the wise and prudent to be revealed in the last times.

Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God, and into an eternal fullness, but this is a mistaken idea. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order, and a place prepared for such characters He held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets, and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead. “Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection.” (See Hebrews 11:35.)

Now it was evident that there was a better resurrection, or else God would not have revealed it unto Paul. Wherein then, can it be said a better resurrection. This distinction is made between the doctrine of the actual resurrection and translation: translation obtains deliverance from the tortures and sufferings of the body, but their existence will prolong as to the labors and toils of the ministry, before they can enter into so great a rest and glory.

On the other hand, those who were tortured, not accepting deliverance, received an immediate rest from their labors. “And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord, for from henceforth they do rest from their labors and their works do follow them.” (See Revelation 14:13.)

They rest from their labors for a long time, and yet their work is held in reserve for the, that they are permitted to do the same work, after they receive a resurrection for their bodies. But we shall leave this subject and the subject of the terrestrial bodies for another time, in order to treat upon them more fully.
http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1840/5Oct40.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://home.comcast.net/~mevans41/great ... /btjs.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Simon
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by Simon »

Frederick wrote:
AshleyB wrote:So what is entering into the Lords rest? It is to receive the fulness of His glory. Why did the Israelites not receive a fulness of His glory and enter into His rest? Because they hardened their hearts and they could not be sanctified and behold the face of God, and endure His presence.

Moses was taken out of the their midst and the greater priesthood also. If they had these things taken away and they could not enter His rest then WHY do we think the rules are different for us? If the Lord's wrath was kindled against them why would it be any different for us? Was not Joseph AND his successor Hyrum taken out the early saints midst? Zion is still fled and has not come again. We have not understood or taught that receiving Him while we are yet in the world is even necessary. Instead, we teach, " We have prophets! All we have to do is follow them and we won't go astray. " We ARE guilty of the SAME exact things as the Jews were. They were content to allow Moses to talk to God for them. Then would not humble themselves and soften their hearts so they could see God and behold Him face to face for themselves. As a result God's wrath and anger was kindled against them. Again, I really don't want to stir up a debate about that but THIS is why these things have been harped on SO MUCH and its right there in the scriptures but somehow we don't see it and all the Irony.
I wish I could shout this message from the rooftops every day. I've shared this message at church countless times, though I'm not sure why more people don't really seem to "hear" it.

We are exactly like the Children of Israel. Yet, instead of seeking to enter into His rest, we rejoice that there is a man who sits atop this organization and he speaks to God for us. Isn't it awesome that God has called a prophet to lead us in these latter days?

Would God that all of His people would be prophets and that He would pour out His Spirit on them.
It is pretty simple when we think about it. Unless people enter the Lords presence, they are under condemnation. How much clearer can the scriptures be?

I often ponder how his church would look like if all of us would enter his presence? What do you think would be some of the main differences to today?

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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by DrJay »

AshleyB wrote: What is it that the temple is teaching us that we must do in order to receive eternal life?
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.

24 This is eternal livesto know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25 Broad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the deaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they receive me not, neither do they abide in my law.
It is interesting in this quote that Lives and Deaths are both plural. hmmmm.

dauser
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by dauser »

Look into 2 mirrors facing each other...you will see yourself in many lives...not one long eternal life.. but multiple lives. Multiple births and multiple deaths... Lives as far as you can see into the future...and looking behind you into the PAST...LIVES...This is not your first life and it is not your last life.

You have fallen from and forgotten soooo much. Enjoy the restoration of all things...your restoration...Give Joseph Smith a little credit.

DrJay
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by DrJay »

dauser wrote:Look into 2 mirrors facing each other...you will see yourself in many lives...not one long eternal life.. but multiple lives. Multiple births and multiple deaths... Lives as far as you can see into the future...and looking behind you into the PAST...LIVES...This is not your first life and it is not your last life.

You have fallen from and forgotten soooo much. Enjoy the restoration of all things...your restoration...Give Joseph Smith a little credit.
Actually, I give Joseph Smith a LOT of credit. It seems though that he only taught us the 1%. We've got a lot of catching up to do.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

Romans Chapter 11

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias [Elyjah]? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal. [And how many will not take the mark that is coming?]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [There was Elect Beings right there among him... There is Elect beings right there among us...]
6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. [Key to understanding our history...]
12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou [Gentiles], being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the [other] branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken [cast] off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee [Gentiles].
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou [Gentiles] wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be grafted into their own olive tree? [Much more likely]
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [For it IS Prophesied to come in! 3 Nephi 16)
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
30 For as ye [Gentiles] in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen. [The prophecies speak of seeking in that day, to be numbered among Yesrael. How will you do this? How will you know when to do this? What new doctrinal understanding will you have to come to embrace, to be numbered among them. Where will you need to gather? What false traditions will you need to repent of? Questions you might want to start asking Father about...

Shalom

AshleyB
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by AshleyB »

dauser wrote:Look into 2 mirrors facing each other...you will see yourself in many lives...not one long eternal life.. but multiple lives. Multiple births and multiple deaths... Lives as far as you can see into the future...and looking behind you into the PAST...LIVES...This is not your first life and it is not your last life.

You have fallen from and forgotten soooo much. Enjoy the restoration of all things...your restoration...Give Joseph Smith a little credit.
I loved your comment. I might have misunderstood what you meant at the end but just to clarify I don't doubt the things that Joseph did. He is the despensation head. He was the instrument used for the restoration. I love him and have SO much gratitude for all he did. He did his part without failing. Now, the rest of us gentiles, speaking collectively... that is another story. We have treated light the things we have received.

DrJay
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by DrJay »

AshleyB wrote:
dauser wrote:Look into 2 mirrors facing each other...you will see yourself in many lives...not one long eternal life.. but multiple lives. Multiple births and multiple deaths... Lives as far as you can see into the future...and looking behind you into the PAST...LIVES...This is not your first life and it is not your last life.

You have fallen from and forgotten soooo much. Enjoy the restoration of all things...your restoration...Give Joseph Smith a little credit.
I loved your comment. I might have misunderstood what you meant at the end but just to clarify I don't doubt the things that Joseph did. He is the despensation head. He was the instrument used for the restoration. I love him and have SO much gratitude for all he did. He did his part without failing. Now, the rest of us gentiles, speaking collectively... that is another story. We have treated light the things we have received.
Yes - very much so. I believe that is one of the reasons we are under condemnation.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

Shalom Sister Ashley,

I enjoyed what you said here on this thread...

Brigham Young here was revealing that he understood the Fifth and Sixth Estate.

Brigham Young, in 1862, spoke of eternal lives, stating that the opportunity to become heirs to all things, and to become a "King of kings and Lord of lords,…is promised to the faithful, and are but so many stages in that ceaseless progression of eternal lives…. There will be no end to the increase of the faithful" (JD 10:5). He described such a situation as a pleasing one, creating happiness beyond mortal comprehension. In 1864 he elaborated: "In like manner, every faithful son of God, becomes, as it were, Adam to the race that springs from his loins, when they are embraced in the covenants and blessings of the Holy Priesthood…in the progress of eternal lives…. We have not yet received our kingdoms, neither will we, until we have finished our work on the earth, passed through the ordeals, are brought up by the power of the resurrection, and are crowned with glory and eternal lives" (JD 10:355).


A Quote that has the different Estates listed by allegory in the Scriptures. Interesting to see the pattern of why water is used here and the real baptism of fire is used thereafter. The different metals also speak volumes as to the severity of the test, the metal needed to be tried and proven true, and the possible value of such a being.

21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This [is] the ordinance of the law which the LORD commanded Moses;
22 Only the gold [6 Estate], and the silver [5 Estate], the brass [3 World 4 Estate], the iron [2 World 4 Estate], the tin [1 World 4 Estate], and the lead [Millennial 3 Estate Beings],
23 Every thing that may abide the fire, ye shall make [it] go through the fire, and it shall be clean: nevertheless it shall be purified with the water of separation [baptism]: and all that abideth not the fire ye shall make go through the water [2 Estate].
24 And ye shall wash your clothes [bodies] on the seventh day [millennial 1000 years], and ye shall be clean, and afterward ye shall come into the camp [kingdom].
[Numbers Chapter 31]

This scripture was the allegory given by Adonai of how Yesrael were to purify themselves. ALL things from Adonai are eternal!

Peace,

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Rick Grimes
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by Rick Grimes »

In what way is this entire thread not espousing the doctrine of 're-incarnation?

The curious wording of "lives" and "deaths" that is causing this confusion would be better comprehended when it is understood that that are being used to describe a collective body. (I.e.- multiple human beings-multiple lives/deaths)

DrJay
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by DrJay »

There are many views of "lives" and "death", some of which include various forms of "re-incarnation". To me, many of the things that Joseph taught make more sense with a view of multiple lives (which is different then re-incarnation). There are a couple of things he taught that I feel are significant 1) he only taught the saints the one hundredth part of what he learned and 2) when ever he taught "hard" doctrine that the saints would fly apart like glass. What was part of the 99% that he learned but was not able to teach us due to our pre-conceptions and beliefs? I want to know the 99%.

jwharton
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by jwharton »

DrJay wrote:There are many views of "lives" and "death", some of which include various forms of "re-incarnation". To me, many of the things that Joseph taught make more sense with a view of multiple lives (which is different then re-incarnation). There are a couple of things he taught that I feel are significant 1) he only taught the saints the one hundredth part of what he learned and 2) when ever he taught "hard" doctrine that the saints would fly apart like glass. What was part of the 99% that he learned but was not able to teach us due to our pre-conceptions and beliefs? I want to know the 99%.
According to Joseph Smith Jr. ALL that he knew he could clearly show you from the Bible.
It's all there and has always been there waiting and waiting for people to see it.
The 100% truth is HIDDEN IN PLAIN SIGHT.

It's the traditions and philosophies (fantasies) of men that blind people from the plain and simple precious truths Joseph clearly had eyes to see.

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Kingdom of ZION
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Re: Eternity and Eternal Lives

Post by Kingdom of ZION »

Rick Grimes wrote:In what way is this entire thread not espousing the doctrine of 're-incarnation?

The curious wording of "lives" and "deaths" that is causing this confusion would be better comprehended when it is understood that that are being used to describe a collective body. (I.e.- multiple human beings-multiple lives/deaths)
One can prove by the scriptures that both, there is only one G_d, yet you can show that there is more then one G_d.
One can prove by the scriptures that both, one is saved by works, yet you can show we are all saved by grace.
One can prove by the scriptures that both, men should have only one wife, yet you can show we are still commanded to live plural marriage or the principle.
One can prove by the scriptures that both, what you and most Christians believe, what the Messiah was saying to Nicodemus about being 'Born Again' was a spiritual awaking, yet you can show that there is more then one physical birth required for exaltation.

When veiled mysteries are revealed in the scriptures, you will always find intelligent men who are seeking the truth and are very sincere, to be found embracing opposite views of the same doctrine, even many times reading the same verses out of the scriptures, and believing that they have a witness from G_d that they understand it correct and are doing His will. Everyone believes they have the truth, for when they find a new truth, they change their truth and believe that they still have the truth.

People are judged on the light revealed to them, their willingness to embrace that light and if they have rejected there old sins, and have learned to love the giver of the light and all His ways.

Shalom

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