Reading Snuffer=Excommunication ??! What the???

[Dysenchanted]

I have very few people I can talk about this with, so regardless if anyone ever reads this, I needed to rant a bit about the asinine behaviors running rampant.

The world is upside down and backwards. Nothing makes sense anymore. I loved Denver Snuffer’s writings not because I like the guy, I want to be best buds, or that’s what the “special” people do. I love his writings because I hear the words of Jesus Christ. I had been searching and praying for VERY specific questions that NO ONE could answer for a long time. And while I wish so badly that I could say I prayed and got those answers directly from the Lord’s mouth, I’m not there yet. But I finally found them…. out of Denver’s mouth. I felt their truth and they resonated within me. I pestered everyone from teachers to stake presidents for answers and no one could give me any. So when I found these answers, my testimony grew in leaps and bounds like a starving person being invited to a feast. I was thrilled! And now they’re going to excommunicate me. WHAT the!?!? It makes no sense! Neither my RS president nor my bishop fully understand why, but “there must be a good reason behind all this.” WHAT!? I’m so frustrated at the lunacy of it all, I could scream! I have a firmer testimony than at least 75% of the people in my stake and once I finally attain that much, I get kicked out?! Because I stand by my belief that Denver’s words are from Christ, and that I do believe he is called to speak them directly from Christ.

When I questioned my bishop further, he seemed to know a bit about Denver and had spoken to others about this subject already, so I asked him what his opinion was of him. He said something to the effect of, “I don’t know too much about what he writes or speaks about, but I do know there’s a good reason for ALL OF THE EXCOMMUNICATIONS.” I was taken back by that and asked further. What do you mean ALL of the excommunications? He said there are a lot of excommunications over this Denver guy. What the????? I told him I had heard of rumors, but had thought they were being exaggerated. He said, no, there are a lot, but there’s a good reason for them. (He just doesn’t know what that good reason is…)

I can’t tell you how much this breaks my heart! I truly love these people I go to church with. Some of them are incredibly beautiful people inside… but OH SO DUMB to be following so blindly!! I’ve been neighbors and friends with these people for a long time and they have been my family. They have watched over me like a family and I have them. My bishop has helped fix things in my house before he was bishop. They know my heart and my desire for all things good… and yet they’re fine with this?!

I told him, it doesn’t make sense that so many people who commit horrible acts are met with kindness, understanding, charity, and love and are just put on probation while those who are just searching for truth and understanding are met with harshness, judgment, stones, and are cast out. How can this make sense?
“Well, I think it has to do with the whole “Denver’s a prophet thing” he said.
Well, I also think I’ve had bishops who were prophets as they were speaking the words of Christ. I also think there are some incredibly spiritual men who are prophets. I made sure to tell him not in the same way that President Monson is the president of the church as he is THE ONLY ONE who has all the “keys” and can lead this church. I will not follow any man into any other church PERIOD. There are hundreds of prophets at a time throughout history. Joseph Smith said he hoped EVERY SINGLE MAN would be a prophet and tried to teach them all to be one. It STILL didn’t mean that they were the same kind of prophet HE was. I’m still stating Monson is the only one to run the church and receive revelation for the church. But that doesn’t mean God can’t pick other men outside of the hierarchy to speak HIS words. In fact, I think it’s lunacy to think He wouldn’t do that in the most wicked time of the world. Why can’t I believe that? Even if you think me wrong, why can’t I continue on my journey to find truth. Why not just teach me if you think I’m being deceived? I was called into the RS presidency in this same ward when I was a brand new member and knew practically NOTHING about the LDS religion and I’m almost positive I was teaching false doctrines…. But you’re good with that, eh? As long as it doesn’t have Snuffer attached to the belief. How insane is this?

Honestly, I don’t have an allegiance to Denver or anything like that, but I’m not going to say “oh yeah, that stuff’s junk and is obviously deceiving” when I know full well it’s not. That’s ridiculous!

Anyway, there’s my rant. I’m sure my bishop or stake president is reading this as well as this is where they got their “proof” that we’re worthy of being cast out, but whatever. My son was moving up into Teachers and my daughter was supposed to be baptized, but I guess they don’t want “THOSE kind of members anyway, right?”

[creator]

From Alma 30:7: "..there was no law against a man's belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds..."

Joseph Smith said: "I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." (DHC 5: 340.)

[sarahmj]

To each their own. The Holy Ghost told me to stay away from his books, even though so many people seem to love them. It seems we don't have the full story about the excommunications, maybe some things transpired that we don't know about that is very good grounds for excommunication. At the end of the day, I trust the judges in Israel God has called. If they are truly repentant they will come back.

[TheLion]

I'll most likely be out the door shortly behind you! I think I'm having a talk with my bishop this weekend!!! :))

I wasn't going to mention Denver Snuffers name as he has no bearing whatsoever over how I formed my observations, I make my own observations and had them prior to being aware of DS, but dang I may just have too now. The whole offering DS money to unpublish his book serves not only as a major warning sign to me but further illuminates something else.

[Facing East]

.

[SkyBird]

"We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen."

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 121:39 - 40)

The part that concerns me is "almost all men," ... don't use their priesthood righteously and "begin to exercise unrighteous dominion."

No blame intended to anyone... just a concern!

[lemuel]

Neither my RS president nor my bishop fully understand why, but “there must be a good reason behind all this.”

Wait, Dys, so how can your bishop excommunicate you if he doesn't even know why? It's his gig, not the Stake Pres, since you're a woman, right?

[Jeremy]

Wait, Dys, so how can your bishop excommunicate you if he doesn't even know why? It's his gig, not the Stake Pres, since you're a woman, right?

That's what I thought to lemuel. I thought SP's could only ex someone if they were a priesthood holder?
Maybe the SP recognizes our sisters hold priesthood. Ah, now it makes sense.

[lemuel]

When I questioned my bishop further, he seemed to know a bit about Denver and had spoken to others about this subject already, so I asked him what his opinion was of him. He said something to the effect of, “I don’t know too much about what he writes or speaks about, but I do know there’s a good reason for ALL OF THE EXCOMMUNICATIONS.” I was taken back by that and asked further. What do you mean ALL of the excommunications? He said there are a lot of excommunications over this Denver guy. What the????? I told him I had heard of rumors, but had thought they were being exaggerated. He said, no, there are a lot, but there’s a good reason for them. (He just doesn’t know what that good reason is…)

If there are lots of excommunications going on, it's probably just the interpretations of rogue SPs & Bishops. If it was a sting by the SCMC, you wouldn't be the first person here they'd go after.

I wish you luck though. Just remember that "a soft answer turneth away wrath".

[North_Star]

Dys....where do you live? I don't mean your address....a state and city if you don't mind.

[Joel]

I will not follow any man into any other church PERIOD.

What would you do if Snuffer "wrest" the keys from the LDS Church?

[North_Star]

I will not follow any man into any other church PERIOD.

What would you do if Snuffer "wrest" the keys from the LDS Church?

Continue seeking Christ....and pray pray pray....night and day....as I currently do.

[SkyBird]

I will not follow any man into any other church PERIOD.

What would you do if Snuffer "wrest" the keys from the LDS Church?

Continue seeking Christ....and pray pray pray....night and day....as I currently do.

Good man! I would do the same too! Some consolation perhaps...

The spiritual Church of the Firstborn I understand never have any excommunications... so that is the one I would seek after... :ymhug:

"To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven"
(New Testament | Hebrews 12:23)

[BroJones]

I'll most likely be out the door shortly behind you! I think I'm having a talk with my bishop this weekend!!! :))

I wasn't going to mention Denver Snuffers name as he has no bearing whatsoever over how I formed my observations, I make my own observations and had them prior to being aware of DS, but dang I may just have too now. The whole offering DS money to unpublish his book serves not only as a major warning sign to me but further illuminates something else.

Lion, before you would leave, please ponder the role of a CLEANSED Church in building the New Jerusalem, and in preparing for the great meeting at Adam-ondi.
As we have discussed numerous times, the Lord assures us that HE will cleanse the Church - parable of the ten virgins, wheat and tares parable, D&C 112, etc.

112:
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

27 Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord.

28 But purify your hearts before me...

[BroJones]

Likewise, Dysenchanted, I would ask for "due process" if they want to excommunicate you. In the Church, this process is spelled out in D&C 102. You should
1. be told what you are accused of;
2. be told WHO your accuser is;
3. be able to respond to the charges and have a fair hearing.

I believe that due process applies to women as well as to men!

102:
In all cases the accuser and the accused shall have a privilege of speaking for themselves before the council, after the evidences are heard and the councilors who are appointed to speak on the case have finished their remarks.

19 After the evidences are heard, the councilors, accuser and accused have spoken, the president shall give a decision according to the understanding which he shall have of the case...

[swiftbrook]

From Alma 30:7: "..there was no law against a man's belief; for it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds..."

Joseph Smith said: "I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." (DHC 5: 340.)

The OP is pure craziness. And these quotes above are important. It feels like the gestapo going after people! So, so, so sorry

[Daryl]

Wow! Just wow!

[BMC]

Two prevailing thoughts, first, this is a sign or a type of things to come, that the persecution of the saints in these last days has or is beginning, being cast out by those who call themselves saints and are not, being persecuted for seeking Christ through non-traditional ways such as directly rather than through man. Secondly, the example given in the New Testament where Christ throws out the money changers in the temple or His fathers house is a parable or type of things in our day, money changers in the Lords house, His temple has again become a place for the money changers, once again but in our day! He will cleanse the temple and cast out those money changers that polute it.

Interesting to me if someone is gay but not practicing it but open about their struggles they are loved and encouraged by those around to be strong or fellowshipped, if you believe in the practice of polygamy but not practicing it because it's forbidden but open about it being a truthful gospel principle you are excommunicated. Strange times...

I can offer you my prayers and am sadden by the turmoil you must be going through, take heart that this is not a bad thing, though it feels that way, it gives you a chance to draw upon the strength of The Lord and be released from certain obligations and commitments to outward things and for you to focus upon the more important aspects of your life and that is your personal relationship with Christ.

My father was once excommunicated and he never felt closer to The Lord during those 8 years than he has any other period in his life. He was not forsaken, he lived according to the knowledge and guidance of the spirit, keeping his covenants though by men's standards or the church he had none but yet in his hearts and by the spirit he knew they remained with him and where important for him to keep. Draw your strength from The Lord. These things are and can be a blessing to us and are ment to be a blessing. I have been through a few disciplinary councils in my past, familiar ground if you will, though not ex'd was disfellowshipped for over 10 years. The Lord comes to those who hear His voice this I can attest to, even non-members so that means even those who are ex-communicated.

[Matthew.B]

Redacted. More than one person-- including a mod-- has PM'd me vouching for Dysfunctional.

[Dysenchanted]

Joseph Smith said: "I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It does not prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine." (DHC 5: 340.)

This was the exact quote I used sitting with my bishop, though I butchered it badly and would've loved to have it committed to memory. I forgot about the Alma one though. Thank you!

To each their own. The Holy Ghost told me to stay away from his books, even though so many people seem to love them. It seems we don't have the full story about the excommunications, maybe some things transpired that we don't know about that is very good grounds for excommunication. At the end of the day, I trust the judges in Israel God has called. If they are truly repentant they will come back.

Good point... OR maybe you weren't ready for it and therefore you would be told to stay away. There are many reasons one is told to move forward while another is told to stay back. It's up to you to find out why that is in your case... or be satisfied that you're seeing clearly and never look into it further. Denver is the ONLY one who has offered ANY answers as to the reasons behind the excommunication, so I have to say I going with his story. But I do believe there are MANY things we don't have the full story on... though the church is the one hiding them.

Neither my RS president nor my bishop fully understand why, but “there must be a good reason behind all this.”

Wait, Dys, so how can your bishop excommunicate you if he doesn't even know why? It's his gig, not the Stake Pres, since you're a woman, right?

I didn't really plan on going into specifics, but I can see it causes confusion. I have no idea how it's supposed to work. I've never once thought to look into it. It actually started with my husband being called into the Stake Pres office. He was told they were going to hold a court to excommunicate him based on his belief in Snuffer's words. It absolutely blind sided me and as I am good friends with my RS president I pulled her aside to ask what was going on. She didn't believe I would be ex'ed as I have a very strong testimony but there must be a good reason behind this. We talked for awhile and while we disagreed with some, she told me to talk with bishop. After meeting with him for awhile, I told my bishop that I believed as my husband did so would I be next and why so sudden? He didn't seem surprised at all and made no pretenses that this was just precautionary. He basically said he agreed with any decision made by the those in the high and lofty seats regardless if he understood or even knew WHAT the charges were. So while my court is not being scheduled at the moment as they are focusing on my husband, there was no twinge of guilt for what he expects will happen next. I told him I believe as my husband does and he feels that is worthy of condemnation.

When I questioned my bishop further, he seemed to know a bit about Denver and had spoken to others about this subject already, so I asked him what his opinion was of him. He said something to the effect of, “I don’t know too much about what he writes or speaks about, but I do know there’s a good reason for ALL OF THE EXCOMMUNICATIONS.” I was taken back by that and asked further. What do you mean ALL of the excommunications? He said there are a lot of excommunications over this Denver guy. What the????? I told him I had heard of rumors, but had thought they were being exaggerated. He said, no, there are a lot, but there’s a good reason for them. (He just doesn’t know what that good reason is…)

If there are lots of excommunications going on, it's probably just the interpretations of rogue SPs & Bishops. If it was a sting by the SCMC, you wouldn't be the first person here they'd go after.

It was absolutely the SCMC and I'm sure it's not the last. Someone here tattled to SLC and they told the Stake Pres. what to do (without him fully understanding why and he follows without question.) Honestly, I'm not concerned for my own skin. I truly love these people and I'm worried for their sakes. I believe I have a correct understanding but I'm afraid for them the more they condemn themselves. They know my heart and know me and yet will still go against their better judgement and follow orders. I can see it troubles them and I hope this will cause them to rethink the spirit of the brethren.
My words are kind when speaking to them and trying to teach them a bit more than what they have, but when the absolute insanity of it all became too much, I had to vent. How do you teach those who care only for the milk and just give you blank stares when you mention the 100 prophets in Elijah's time?

Dys....where do you live?

Utah County

I will not follow any man into any other church PERIOD.

[deep water]

I have heard and read of Satan worshipers, not only in the church, but in positions of authority in the church(Glen Pace). I have even read that might be why the temple wording was changed. Where is the proof of the spirit of discernment , the proof that the HG is doing the calling? How can the calling to go on a mission by someone who has committed sins come through a priesthood inspired calling and not be true. If one keeps their mouth shut, anything is possible in the church. By speaking out, who does it expose as a true follower of Christ? The excommunicated or the excommunicator?

[Dysenchanted]

I will not follow any man into any other church PERIOD.

What would you do if Snuffer "wrest" the keys from the LDS Church?

I could be wrong, but I believe religion was made for man. Churches are made of men. The Gospel is of Christ. I don't think there will be another church we are supposed to join. Correct me if I'm wrong, The Church of the First Born is not one that YOU join, but are brought directly into by Christ. Ergo, I will not follow any other MAN into another church.

Dysenchanted, you've posted on here all of one times, in the OP of this thread. Your account was created yesterday. How are you part of "we"? And if you're telling the truth-- you're telling me that bishops and stake presidents are perusing LDSFF to get a feel for what Snuffer's writings entail, and how people use them? I'd like a bit more explanation, please.

I don't mean to be the wet blanket, but something feels off. I'd like more than one (anonymous internet) witness before I'm asked to believe that the Church (or some contingency thereof) is moving to excommunicate those who read Snuffer's work.

And I do believe that someone could get excommunicated for saying some of the same things Denver did, if they went about it in a hostile or unwise way. I could also see an unrighteous leader trying to excommunicate someone for merely believing those things, but I'm with DrJones on this. We ought to fight to retain our church membership until the bitter end-- just like Denver did. Until something significant happens that changes the whole situation, Church membership is still something to be prized, even if the Church is struggling in the "light and truth" department.

Actually, I mostly perused and sometimes posted before. I really felt the need to vent, but as me telling my story also tells others who are on here, I vented under another user name.... I know, shocking I actually used another. I didn't want to go into specifics or gain attention to "me", so I became anonymous. I've tried explaining this to my friends in my area and they all think I'm deceived in this Snuffer guy too and want me to fix it, but again, he just happens to be the name who wrote the books. It's not the "name" I care about, it's the words which brought me relief with answers. So as I couldn't vent to them, I figured... what better place than anonymously on the web? ;)

And YES, bishops and Stake presidents are perusing LDSFF when they are alerted by their spies as to the identity of "apostate" members on here in their area. Which baffles my mind, really. If I was preaching false doctrine to your stake, I could see your concern. But if I happen to be discussing "false doctrine" on the internet where almost NO ONE in your stake reads or has any knowledge of, why would you excommunicate me from your stake? Will it make your "flock" better or less contaminated? Will it stop me from posting on the internet? What's the purpose, really?

"Church membership is still something to be prized, even if the Church is struggling in the "light and truth" department." I fully agree with this and again, I truly love those in my ward and stake. I was in several wards in this stake and know many people, which is why I'm so frustrated. I have spent many hours trying to help them understand there is no malice on my part, only searching for pure unadulterated truth. And this is where I have been lead.

[Matthew.B]

So I'm going to do a complete turnaround from my previous post, which has gone the way of all the earth, and loudly wonder about the propriety of bringing a tape recorder to the excommunication proceedings to have a clear record of what's happening.

If what's really going on is a secret movement to excommunicate those who believe Snuffer, then the best remedy is to expose it to light. Multiple excommunication proceedings based solely on a person's belief-- not a loss of testimony of Christ, but of a loss of testimony of "the prophet"-- is the most damming thing the Church could do. People would need to know, and they should be made aware. I'm not sure if recording the whole thing is the best way to go about it, but secrecy only helps the Church. Exposing what's happening would both vindicate those being excommunicated, and reveal those who are doing the excommunicating.

And I want to repeat that a mod and another user have PM'd me vouching for Dysenchanted, so if anyone else had my same suspicions, they can be put to rest.

[brrgilbert]

God Bless.

[swiftbrook]

And YES, bishops and Stake presidents are perusing LDSFF when they are alerted by their spies as to the identity of "apostate" members on here in their area. Which baffles my mind, really.

How can this even be our Church?? Spying on people, reporting them, ordering their local leaders to discipline and ex them?