Sacrament talk: Women and the priesthood

[Rick Grimes]

What does it really mean to be the head?



23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Ephesians 5


Since women are so full of love and kindness right from their genes, God specifally calls the men to get aHEAD of their wives by giving themselves for their wives as Christ gave himselfe for his church.

Christ was a servent, and to be the head should not mean anything different than that.

The logic in this is absolutely scary. According to this post, Christ is no more than a servant for the Church and not the head or leader of this Church. What the heck???!!!!

The scripture is plain and easy to understand. Christ is the head of the church. (as in, it is led and guided by Him through His prophets who He speaks with) The Church follows Christ. (at least we are supposed to anyways)

The husband is the head of the family and the wife is supposed to "hearken/obey unto his counsel" even as her husband hearkens unto the Father's counsel. Feminists may not like this, but this is the intended way that families were to be run. The husband hears what the Father has to say, and he in turn delivers it to the family. They can then pray about it and are invited to obey. This does not mean that a loving and righteous father rules with an iron fist. Section 121 of the D and C establishes HOW a priesthood leader/father is to govern his family or charges. Notice how this pattern is the exaxt same pattern that the Lord has with His church. The Lord speaks to the prophet. The prophet shares this revelation to the membership. The membership are invited to recieve their confirmation from the spirit. They are invited to obey.
It is really disturbing that so many of us have lost sight of this simple and basic truth of priesthood and how the Lord governs His people, by means of the Priesthood.

[paper face]

Christ's words have implications. He called the body a "temple". What is the function of a temple? Veil work. So what is the womb of a temple body, from which individuals pass from one world into another? A veil. Even if no GA ever said so, it is a veil where ordinances take place.

Christ trumps everyone. If his words do not infer that the womb is a veil, then I would like anyone to offer up an alternative explanation of what the function of a temple is, and what the womb is.

Women in the covenant are sealers. Their womb completes the sealing no matter where the birth takes place. If that's not exercising priesthood authority, then explain to me exactly what it is.

If women have a veil, then who can honestly say they don't have the priesthood? All the administrative stuff is only a temporary aspect of the Melchizedek Priesthood. The more important function of that priesthood is the same as the function of the temple: veil work. That's what the ordinances are. That's why Christ called his baptisms "rebirths", that's why the marks on garments reflect breastfeeding and the umbilical cord, and that is why Christ bled in a garden... it is an homage to motherhood on the grandest scale.

[Reggie]

Christ's words have implications. He called the body a "temple". What is the function of a temple? Veil work. So what is the womb of a temple body, from which individuals pass from one world into another? A veil. Even if no GA ever said so, it is a veil where ordinances take place.

Christ trumps everyone. If his words do not infer that the womb is a veil, then I would like anyone to offer up an alternative explanation of what the function of a temple is, and what the womb is.

Women in the covenant are sealers. Their womb completes the sealing no matter where the birth takes place. If that's not exercising priesthood authority, then explain to me exactly what it is.

If women have a veil, then who can honestly say they don't have the priesthood? All the administrative stuff is only a temporary aspect of the Melchizedek Priesthood. The more important function of that priesthood is the same as the function of the temple: veil work. That's what the ordinances are. That's why Christ called his baptisms "rebirths", that's why the marks on garments reflect breastfeeding and the umbilical cord, and that is why Christ bled in a garden... it is an homage to motherhood on the grandest scale.

Fantastic! Thanks Paperface. Is this why it is said that women are saved in childbirth? I have never understood that scripture. Working in the child welfare system for many years I saw a lot of "Crackhead" mothers giving birth and not taking care of their children. We would end up adopting them out. I often wondered if that scripture applied to that situation. If what you are saying is true, I think it would. :ymparty:

[Lilli]

I almost agree with this. I would change it to "neither the man without the woman nor the woman without the man in the lord." Women and men will serve together in all callings as a united whole or a single unit. So the prophet/prophetess will lead the church united. Bishops will be married couples serving and working together.

Yes, thanks for clarifying that Amonhi, I totally agree, that is what I believe also, I just didn't go into it further. Bishops or Stake Presidents, etc., on up will be a couple, the husband over the men and the wife over the women, each with equal say and power and authority in the position. Men and women, husbands and wives are on totally equal ground, neither one is over the other or the 'head' of the other. Each is under equal obligation to follow/obey the desires and requests of the other, for each may be receiving revelation from God that can help their spouse and family or others.

But such things can only happen when men and women are willing to respect women's total equality and power.

I believe it was Brigham Young's personal beliefs that he wrote into the temple teachings that made people think men were over women in some ways and that women had to 'obey' their husbands or leaders and not the other way around also. I believe he got that and many other ideas, in part from a document back then called 'The Peacemaker', which Joseph called vile trash.

[Rick Grimes]

Men and women, husbands and wives are on totally equal ground, neither one is over the other or the 'head' of the other.

That may sound good in the forum of the world. However, you have cast aside the scriptures and what is written in them. When we do that, we let ourselves get tossed around with "every wind of doctrine."

What you say is not doctrinally sound nor has it precedent. Why do you kick against the pricks? Nobody is attacking women. Quite the opposite it seems is going on, with women and feminized men attacking the scriptures and what is plainly visible. Neither man nor woman is complete without the other in God. Men with the priesthood and women with their ability to bear the souls of men are the complemented pair that God intended for us to be. Why is this so foreign and hard to bear?

[paper face]

Is this why it is said that women are saved in childbirth? I have never understood that scripture.

The best way to think about this is to think about Jonah, who essentially had righteousness (prophethood) and greatness (complete conversion of Nineveh) thrust upon him. Women can profane themselves, but they cannot harm a veil. Like the sacrament, they can only harm themselves at that gate. And like Jonah, they cannot escape their stewardship.

[Rick Grimes]

The best way to think about this is to think about Jonah, who essentially had righteousness (prophethood) and greatness (complete conversion of Nineveh) thrust upon him. Women can profane themselves, but they cannot harm a veil. Like the sacrament, they can only harm themselves at that gate. And like Jonah, they cannot escape their stewardship.

No offense, but this sounds like a Dan Brown novel with the "sacred feminen" and looking for things that aren't there. (chalices in paintings and the like..... @-) )

[paper face]

No offense, but this sounds like a Dan Brown novel with the "sacred feminen" and looking for things that aren't there. (chalices in paintings and the like..... @-) )

No offense taken.

[Lance]

-

[Rick Grimes]

Even if no GA ever said so, it is a veil where ordinances take place.

You're right. No General Authority has ever claimed a new revelation indicating this to be so.

Christ trumps everyone. If his words do not infer that the womb is a veil,

They don't, so what's your point?

Here's mine.
"It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord ahs revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yeardsticks, or balances, by which we measure ever man's doctrine.
You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards of doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works...."
-Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation

I don't see that what you are saying squares up with the established, revealed gospel as we know it.

[Amonhi]

There are some great comments here. I've been pondering and studying D&C 84 and the "Oath and Covenant," for years. However, it wasn't until this fall that I began to truly understand priesthood. A couple of months ago I had an angelic visit and was shown how the priesthood is a channel to receiving revelation from heaven. It was after that when I discovered this passage in TPJS.

The Melchizedek Priesthood comprehends the Aaronic or Levitical Priesthood, and is the grand head, and holds the highest authority which pertains to the priesthood, and the keys of the Kingdom of God in all ages of the world to the latest posterity on the earth; and is the channel through which all knowledge, doctrine, the plan of salvation and every important matter is revealed from heaven.
It is the channel through which the Almighty commenced revealing His glory at the beginning of the creation of this earth, and through which He has continued to reveal Himself to the children of men to the present time, and through which He will make known His purposes to the end of time.

I had angels show me how this channel exists. I learned many things during that heavenly encounter.

In D&C 84, it says that those who receive this priesthood receive the Father and all that the Father has. While many men are ordained by the LDS church to hold the Melchizidek priesthood, only a very few have received all that the Father has in this life. To receive this priesthood is to receive celestial glory, it is to have the heavens opened. This is all meant for this life.

In this respect, women are absolutely entitled to receiving all that the Father has, to have the heavens opened and to commune with members of the Church of the Firstborn. Women are entitled to having a channel to heaven through which they can receive all the knowledge of God until they know it in full.

For where faith is, there will the knowledge of God be also, with all things which pertain thereto — revelations, visions, and dreams, as well as every necessary thing, in order that the possessors of faith may be perfected, and obtain salvation

The priesthood is inseparably connected with the powers of heaven. In other words, when one has priesthood, the "powers" of heaven are present in one's life. Faith and knowledge are also inseparably connected, as we see from the passage from Lecture Seven.

The idea that only men hold priesthood is a false tradition based on an incorrect and incomplete idea of what priesthood is.

I do not think women should seek ordination from the LDS church, as I don't believe the church has the power to bestow the priesthood of God on anyone. Only God can and will bestow His own priesthood to "anyone" who comes unto Him with a pure heart.

Frederick, I couldn't agree more. You really expressed this well!

Peace,
Amonhi

[paper face]

Christ trumps everyone. If his words do not infer that the womb is a veil,

They don't, so what's your point?

I assert that they do. You have nothing to reference in response other than "they don't", while I reference Christ. What you do reference states the following:

It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord as revealed, we can set it aside.

...which places the burden on you to describe exactly how what I have said is in conflict with the Gospel.

[Lilli]

Men and women, husbands and wives are on totally equal ground, neither one is over the other or the 'head' of the other.

That may sound good in the forum of the world. However, you have cast aside the scriptures and what is written in them. When we do that, we let ourselves get tossed around with "every wind of doctrine."

What you say is not doctrinally sound nor has it precedent. Why do you kick against the pricks? Nobody is attacking women. Quite the opposite it seems is going on, with women and feminized men attacking the scriptures and what is plainly visible. Neither man nor woman is complete without the other in God. Men with the priesthood and women with their ability to bear the souls of men are the complemented pair that God intended for us to be. Why is this so foreign and hard to bear?

I believe differently and I don't believe your views are doctrinally sound, they don't even pass Christ's Golden Rule test imo. I believe Brigham Young and others wrote the temple dialogues after Joseph died, and it is clear to me that BY got many his ideas from 'The Peacemaker', which Joseph was totally against.

I know women have the Priesthood and bear souls and are totally equal with men in God's eyes. But we can just agree to disagree, for I know many righteous men who understand women's equality and believe they must listen to and follow their wives also, even 1st, if he expects her to ever follow him in return.

[lemuel]

Christ trumps everyone. If his words do not infer that the womb is a veil,

They don't, so what's your point?

I assert that they do. You have nothing to reference in response other than "they don't", while I reference Christ. What you do reference states the following:

It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord as revealed, we can set it aside.

...which places the burden on you to describe exactly how what I have said is in conflict with the Gospel.

I don't think the idea that the womb is a veil is doctrine, but it is consistent with reason and revealed truth.

Think of it this way: a spirit is put into a very small body, one that will not develop a brain for a few months. With no brain, it can have no memories. The brain later develops, but with no memories stored, this is in effect how memories of our former life are removed. If this is not a veiling, then what is?

[TZONE]

...which places the burden on you to describe exactly how what I have said is in conflict with the Gospel.

I don't think the idea that the womb is a veil is doctrine, but it is consistent with reason and revealed truth.

Think of it this way: a spirit is put into a very small body, one that will not develop a brain for a few months. With no brain, it can have no memories. The brain later develops, but with no memories stored, this is in effect how memories of our former life are removed. If this is not a veiling, then what is?

here is a place it touches on this,

moses 6

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

blood/spirit <-> spirit/blood, first last, last first.... born into world, taken out of world... Women pass them into the world via the veil, men pass them out of hte world via the veil... (jesus and the atonment for example)

[paper face]

here is a place it touches on this,

moses 6

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

blood/spirit <-> spirit/blood, first last, last first.... born into world, taken out of world... Women pass them into the world via the veil, men pass them out of hte world via the veil... (jesus and the atonment for example)

The problem is that while this scripture is part of the canon, no General Authority has ever given a talk about it. Look it up on LDS.org. Search the Journal of Discourses. I guess no prophet dares to interpret that one. If a GA doesn't give give a talk on something, it may as well not even exist in our scriptures.

"inasmuch"? "even so"? If I am misinterpreting Christ, then who in the world is going to tell me where, and in what way? Does Christ not know how to choose the correct words? Did he say "temple" and mean "porn shop"? Because no one is going to pretend on this forum that there isn't a porn problem in the church. If the body is a temple, then can anyone arguing that women don't have priesthood explain to me exactly what the draw is to to porn? No one's beating down the doors of the temple building, but temple bodies are in high demand online.

But that's not even the biggest problem, TZONE. The biggest problem is the scripture directly before that one:

58 Therefore I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:

Tell me, what Mormons do you know that teach this concept freely to their kids? What LDS parents teach that the blood, spirit, and water of Christ's Atonement reflects the blood, water, and spirit of motherhood? There is a Gospel Principles lesson on this scripture, but that's it. Where are all the kids and teens during Gospel Essentials? They're in other classes, learning other lessons.

These scriptures were spoken by Enoch, a prophet that actually achieved a Zion community. Is there a connection between the porn problem I discussed above and the lack of following the commandment from v. 58? I think so.

If you teach sacredness as a huge abstraction, you are going to achieve abstract results. Do you want concrete results? Do you truly want Zion? Start by taking Christ at his word.

[sarahmj]

I see that feminism is alive and well in the Church. Women hold the priesthood??? What an absolute falsehood! X(
Priesthood is given by ordination. And yes, God is no respected of persons. That includes some misguided belief that women are so much more worthy or better than men that they don't have to go through the hassle of being ordained! #-o Who rewrote the standard works? Who rewrote the last several thousands of years of biblical history that show it is men that speak to God through the priesthood. Feminism has apparently done its work to minimize man's place in the Lord's plan of salvation.
This trend of women and men believing that women innately hold priesthood is false, and I can assure you is authored by the father of all lies. It would be akin to saying that men can also give birth themselves! :))
Women not holding priesthood in no way diminishes their worth, anymore than it diminishes men when we say that they cannot carry life and give birth.

And for those of you claiming to have seen angels that have told you this truth......either keep it to yourself or pull out the scriptural evidence that backs up this supposed truth. I would be Leary of any supposed Angel that delivers "another gospel" though.
Women holding the priesthood does not follow the pattern of God, it is not scriptural, and is the latest feel good fad for the closet feminist in our church.

Elder McConkie's rebuttle:

This doctrine of the priesthood- unknown in the world and but little known even in the church- cannot be learned out of the scriptures alone. It is not set forth in the sermons and teachings of the prophets and Apostles, except in small measure. The doctrine of the priesthood is known only by personal revelation. It comes line upon line, precept upon precept, by the power of the Holy Ghost to those who love and serve God with all their heart, might, mind and strength….Priesthood is power like none other on earth or in heaven"
- May 1982 Ensign, page 32.

[Amonhi]

What does it really mean to be the head?
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Ephesians 5

Since women are so full of love and kindness right from their genes, God specifally calls the men to get aHEAD of their wives by giving themselves for their wives as Christ gave himselfe for his church.

Christ was a servent, and to be the head should not mean anything different than that.

The logic in this is absolutely scary. According to this post, Christ is no more than a servant for the Church and not the head or leader of this Church. What the heck???!!!!

The scripture is plain and easy to understand. Christ is the head of the church. (as in, it is led and guided by Him through His prophets who He speaks with) The Church follows Christ. (at least we are supposed to anyways)

I think you are right that the scripture is plain and easy to understand. The question I have is more basic in nature... Is the scripture right/true or correct. I know people have a hard time asking this question, because they want the scriptures to be an infallible source of truth just like others want the modern prophets to be...

Here's the thing... This quote in Ephesians 5 was written by the same Paul that wrote:

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. - 1 Corinthians 14

Now I do not see a single person on any side of this discussion pushing to keep women silent in church or that they should ONLY learn from their husbands. If Paul is the foremost inspired authority on the Godly relationship expected between a man and a woman, then let's not pick and choose those points of his doctrine that we should believe. Let's call the church to repentance for letting, no encouraging and calling women to speak in church and not subjecting them to their husbands correctly. If you want to compare the woman's relationship with the man to the man's relationship with the woman, then go right ahead. And as most of you believe that we should not question Christ and that we should do whatever is commanded of us by Christ, then also let the woman not question her husband and do whatever is commanded of her. For this was Paul's understanding of the relationship a man has with a woman.

Either he knew what he was talking about or his didn't. I say he didn't and I am willing to bet that most everyone on this forum on all sides of the discussion will disagree with one or more of the statements of Paul regarding the proper role of women and the relationship between a man and a wife. If you agree fully with the first quote I provided by Paul above and want to start advocating that women be silent in church and only learn from their husbands and should subject themselves to the husband, then here are some more BS quotes by Paul that will help to support your position...

11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. - 1 Timothy 2

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. - 1 CORINTHIANS 11

Oh yeah, and let's not forget that Paul advocated the celibate life...here is one of the examples...

7 For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.
8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn. - 1 Corinthians 7

He viewed women king of like the traditional muslim saying that they should be covered and silent and obedient to man like man is obedient to God. if you believe Paul in regard to women, then believe everything he said and declare the Church out of line with the scriptures. And if not, then don't try to use Paul as an authority on the subject.

Yeah, Paul....had some pretty strong opinions regarding women and their role and relationship with men. I myself wouldn't dare advocate any of his opinions on this topic which he gave as "commandments of the Lord", 1 Corinthians 14:37. I would just let him stand by himself as a fool. And I think anyone who uses Paul to support their beliefs is not far from the tree.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Men and women, husbands and wives are on totally equal ground, neither one is over the other or the 'head' of the other.

That may sound good in the forum of the world. However, you have cast aside the scriptures and what is written in them.

When they are wrong, YES ABSOLUTELY!!!! Again, do you agree with everything Paul said regarding the relationship and role of women in the church and with men?

When we do that, we let ourselves get tossed around with "every wind of doctrine."

The only way to avoid this is to align with eternal truth like God does. Not being bound to men or scriptures when one will say one thing and another will say another and both will disagree with eternal truth/morality.

What you say is not doctrinally sound nor has it precedent. Why do you kick against the pricks? Nobody is attacking women. Quite the opposite it seems is going on, with women and feminized men attacking the scriptures and what is plainly visible.

I think everyone knows well that I do not accept all the writtings in the bible, BoM or even D&C and certainly not everything in the pearl of great Price as scripture, nor the words given in GC, until and only when the spirit teaches me is scripture and explains to me why. Then it is the word of the lord, and the power of God to salvation. And what you are saying, whether it si what Paul believed or your interpretation of what Paul believed does not jive with the principles of eternal truth.

Do you Rick Grimes believe everything that Paul taught regarding women?

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Here's mine.
"It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord ahs revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yeardsticks, or balances, by which we measure ever man's doctrine.
You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards of doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works...."
-Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation

Well, you have your measuring stick. And when you compare the church and its current doctrines and teachings and practices to you precious measuring stick, it is clearly falling short. I think your first line of business might be to start telling women to keep silent and to obey their men with the same attitude of worship that you feel men should obey Christ. Then you will certainly be teaching the scriptures.

I don't see that what you are saying squares up with the established, revealed gospel as we know it.

Right back at you.... with the one change, "I don't see that what you are saying squares up with the established, revealed gospel as taught by Paul in the New Testament".

Peace,
Amonhi

[Rick Grimes]

I think everyone knows well that I do not accept all the writtings in the bible, BoM or even D&C and certainly not everything in the pearl of great Price as scripture, nor the words given in GC,

Clearly this is the case, as your thoughts and beliefs don't line up with the revealed word of God, or modern day revelation.

The only way to avoid this is to align with eternal truth like God does. Not being bound to men or scriptures when one will say one thing and another will say another and both will disagree with eternal truth/morality.

So cherry picking what you like from the Gospel is what suits you better? On that note, I promise you that the scriptures(so far as they are translated correctly) and modern day revelation don't disagree with each other. Anybody who doesn't listen to the mouthpieces of the Lord, do so at their own peril. Yours and other's statements on this forum that do not fit into the revealed word of God, nor His modern day revelations, are perfect examples of how quickly we can get distracted or led off the correct path when we are left to our own devices. I don't say this to talk down to you. It is a natural phenomenon, that when the membership stops listening to the leaders of the Church, they start establishing their own doctrines of men. Take for example post WWII Japan. The members there had been cut off from the rest of the world for several years. When the GA's went to visit them after several years of having been unable to communicate to the wards and stakes in that part of the world; they discovered crucifixes in the chapels. They discovered many other things that were also not in line with the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Doesn't mean that they were bad people, though. Far from it. It just shows what happens to the course of a people when they are not able to listen and recieve guidance from the prophet of the Lord.

[Hyrcanus]

Quick observation, without getting mired down in all of the details of the thread.

Conversations about faith are useful and interesting when the participants share a common foundation. Beliefs can be explained and supported and mutual understanding and faith can grow. As soon as those common foundations are gone, as soon as someone can selectively pick and choose elements that they don't believe, it becomes extremely difficult to have a conversation that enhances faith, because the participants don't share a common foundation any longer.

That doesn't mean anyone's particular faith is wrong or right, that is almost impossible to determine objectively in conversations about faith (since faith is inherently subjective), it just means that arguing with each other is not going to produce much light.

Edited for clarity.

[chase]

I have a bit of a problem with the whole motherhood=priesthood approach. The priesthood is ordained to men and boys who are members of the church in good standing, as proven by an interview with priesthood authority.

Motherhood on the other hand is biological function which most women and girls over the age of about 12-13 until some point in late middle age are able to achieve. No membership requirement, no priesthood authority is needed for motherhood to occur.

Now while it is true that the simple biological act of reproduction is not "motherhood" in the wider use of the word I do think that this comparison of priesthood and motherhood is not as firm a one as it might be.

We all assume that PH has anything to do with hands on heads. Just sad the way we reduce everything to a "dead work." Can a murderer of the innocent hold PH? Probably not. Is your baptism valid if you were baptized by a murderer? Of course, because the ordinance isn't about the ordinance. It's about faith. Instead of all of us whining about power we want but don't have or whining about keeping exclusive a power we think we have, why don't we all just start praying for power? We act like such little pukes with absolutely no faith. Sure we have faith in the mechanic of "laying hands on heads equals priesthood reception." We have absolutely no faith in the power of faith and the ability of our God to teach us the things we need to know. It's all about dead works, and that is what we will find our supposed PH reduced to when the final calculation is made. Stop coveting a dead work you have fetched or a dead work you desire to fetch. When are we going to wake up and realize that we are completely bereft of power because of our pride and our lust for dominion. If you have priesthood, then please, step confidently into God's presence and then come back and bear witness of Him. Until then, silence yourself and quit talking about something you know nothing about. Those who don't have any power seem to be bent on self-identifying themselves. By their fruits ye shall know them. Lots of unconvincing actors if you ask me.

[chase]

they discovered crucifixes in the chapels.

Heaven forbid someone would display an emblem of Christ. Early members used crosses all the time. It's funny, we got rid of the cross to set ourselves apart from traditional "Christians." No we run media campaigns to try to convince Christians that we are just like them.

They discovered many other things that were also not in line with the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Doesn't mean that they were bad people, though. Far from it. It just shows what happens to the course of a people when they are not able to listen and recieve guidance from the prophet of the Lord.

Many things the GAs have taught are not in line with the gospel of Jesus Christ. You say that there is no contradiction between correctly translated scripture and the leaders of the church. What do you base this on? The apparent contradictions between scripture and modern day leadership, no doubt. Be advised, there are many. Read your history friend. Doesn't mean the gospel is not valid. Just means you have pinned your salvation to the coattail of the wrong Savior.

[Amonhi]

So cherry picking what you like from the Gospel is what suits you better? On that note, I promise you that the scriptures(so far as they are translated correctly) and modern day revelation don't disagree with each other.

We are both "Cherry picking which scriptures we accept from the cannon... I just admit it openly and knowingly. As far as being translated correctly, perhaps you might provide us with the correct translation of these verses so that we can know how to apply them correctly:

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. - 1 Corinthians 14

If you would please provide us the "CORRECT TRANSLATION" of the following points:

• Let your women keep silence in the churches
• it is not permitted unto them to speak
• they are commanded to be under obedience
• if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home
• it is a shame for women to speak in the church
• Why Paul followed this up with "If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."

In your own words:
"The scripture is plain and easy to understand." I don't see how you can misunderstand Paul's words and his intent. Short simple statements given as commandment from the Lord. I can hardly wait to hear how you are not "cherry picking" what you believe from the bible and to see how you are translating these verses correctly.

Anxiously awaiting your "Correct Translation".

Peace,
Amonhi